₦airaland Forum

Excuse me, but if I knew what the "right way" is supposed to be, I wouldn't be here asking you questions.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean you should know what the right way is but that you should know the questions that the right way has to answer to be the right way.

I hope you understand now.

Again I have to say sorry but any ultimate truth is objective irrespective of subjectivity.
Moses may be blind thus cannot see the moon, james may be in sudan and cant see the full moon but that doesnt change the ultimate truth there is a moon circling the sky bro.

Yes it doesn't change the truth but how do you go about proving that there is a moon in the sky to a blind man.

If you can give me a method to do that then I will try to use the same method to prove that Christianity is the right way to you.

I'm sorry but DID I LIE? Do most religions not have an answer to the "4 fundamental questions of life" as you call it?
Funny how you didn't refute that but here you are crying foul.

I don't think most religions have satisfactory answers to the 4 fundamental questions I raised.
I don't intend to go into a lengthy discourse on how each religion does not answer the four fundamental questions I raised. I probably would not be able to go over all the religions as I don't even know all the religions that there are in the world.

Why should I believe you?

The only way you can believe someone is if you experience what the person is saying.
for example you will not really believe a stranger if he/she told you that his father owns an aeroplane except you see something that YOU consider to be a representation of ownership

So you see the stranger can only prove ownership by your definition of ownership not by his/hers.

The same way I can only prove that Christianity is the right way by your own definition of what the right way should be.

Step 1: I would like to determine what your definition of what the right way should be is
Step 2: Examine whether those definitions of yours are consistent
Step 3: Prove to you that Christianity meets those definitions if the definitions are consistent with themselves

I have spelt out the entire process. Do you suspect any foul play?

Why should I accept the Christian God as the "True" God and disregard others? Why should I believe you?

I have told you why I accepted Christianity.
When I did that you replied and said everyone can give you the same answer. What stops you from saying the same thing about any other thing I say?

I may not be able to give you satisfactory answers on why YOU should accept Christianity if I don't know anything about the questions that you really need to be answered in your life.

You cannot accept truth objectively. you can only accept it subjectively.

You want me to present you my notions/beliefs so you can beat them down and climb up at the expense of the weaknesses of whatever beliefs I may have. How sad. All religions do this.

I do not intend to beat your beliefs down. I merely seek to answer whatever questions you have as realistically as I can.

If you think your beliefs have fundamental weaknesses then the question is why you still believe what you believe.

the bible is no science textbook,it purpose is >>4 our learning
>>d powa of God to salvation(shows way of salvatn) and oda biblically stated purpose.
If u want indepth explanatn to human existence consult your science,anthropology,philosophy textbk.howeva hav it at d back of your mind dat d bible supercedes any science tkbk,any in oppositn to it is blasphameous and callin God a liar. It take faith to do this. WITHOUT FAITH NO MAN CAN PLEASE GOD(Heb 11)

Do you honestly expect someone who has not read the bible and who has not been exposed to Christianity to simply believe that the bible supercedes science textbooks?

Ok, suppose I told you that the Qu'ran supercedes any science textbook and any opposition to it is blasphemous and calling God a liar would you believe it unconditionally?

the bible is no science textbook,it purpose is >>4 our learning
>>d powa of God to salvation(shows way of salvatn) and oda biblically stated purpose.
If u want indepth explanatn to human existence consult your science,anthropology,philosophy textbk.howeva hav it at d back of your mind dat d bible supercedes any science tkbk,any in oppositn to it is blasphameous and callin God a liar. It take faith to do this. WITHOUT FAITH NO MAN CAN PLEASE GOD(Heb 11)

I have one question for you:
Would you think the way you do if you were born to communist parents in russia during the cold war.
Communists generally do not believe in the notion of God at all.
or better still, what would you do if you were born to hindu parents in india?

When you start waiting for me to reveal my circumstances, challenges, problems etc  then you can tailor your "truth" to meet my needs, I think that is plain wrong and you're merely taking advantage of my "poor" situation. This is not feasible because as soon as I see another version of "Truth" that better meets my selfish needs I scamper. This is what we see in churches and different faiths today.

I think the whole point of the discussion is to explain something you don't understand to you.

I am not asking you to elucidate your selfish needs, I am asking you to elucidate the questions that arose from the reality of your selfish needs.

Answering the questions is not the same thing as meeting your selfish needs.

I am not a pastor, neither am I telling you to attend any particular denomination so I guess there is no ocassion for ulterior motives here.

I've been here before and I've learnt  when people begin circumventing and contradicting their doctrines/beliefs/teaching in a bid not to answer your query then its safe not to expect any tangible answers from them.

I do not think I have contradicted my belief system so I guess you can still expect tangible answers from me.

Brother, when I said assume I was born today I plainly stated the basis on which the assumption should be made which is I have NO preconceived notion about any God. I didnt tell you to get all literal and assume i'm still suckling bosoms.

Even if you have no preconceived notion about any god which is extremely unlikely, many events have taken place in your life. It is a summary of those questions that form the basis for you believing anything and that is what I need to get started.

For example you can say, I have a Nigerian background and I've seen so much suffering, so much corruption or you can say I have a Nigerian background and I have seen so much wealth and I don't know what this means.

There is nothing truly objective in life when it concerns humans. Even the application of natural laws (which are universal) depend on the particular situation we find ourselves.
For example, Gravity is seen as a positive when you are at the periphery of the earth's magnetic field and are in danger of being lost in space whereas when you are hanging precipitously at the edge on top of a 80 storey building, Gravity is seen as a negative.

I hope you understand.

I believe I gave you the basics of why I accept Christianity but you said it was not satisfactory for you that's why I asked for your fundamental position so I know where to start.

why hide ? >>> on issues of indecency, self-service, homosexuality >>> we tend to pretend they don't exist (particularly in Nigeria) >>> we brush them aside as evil instead of tackling such issues head on. >>> don't even give complete info >>> all you get is stereotypes_albeit 'the other side' is guilty of this too IMO

If you have any questions concerning indecency, self-service (I don't know what you are refering to) and homosexuality, you can post them and I'll try my best as much as God will help me to answer them.

why are't miracles of the kind Jesus did ubiquitous >>> why not just go out and heal the sick, raise the dead, and (as one atheist_4gotten the profile name_always asks) heal the amputees ? >>> all we we got is hearsay testimonies ? >>> at least, as far as I know

Everything (including truth) can be classified as hearsay from a person't point of view until the person has first hand experience.

If there were no miracles then miracle crusades would in all probability have faded away by now considering that miracle crusades are done by so many people who have no contact with each other.
Except there is a massive global conspiracy surrounding miracle crusades, I dont think it would have survived for this long.

I think I have heard of miracles that involve people's limbs growing out but I've not experienced one close up.

Also most people are no where near the spiritual levels of the early church so it shouldn't be surprising that miracles are not as common place as they were then.

why curse ? at one time or the other pastors I've encountered warn their congregation to 'be careful' on issues lest the garner the curse of God upon themselves. In this regard >>> "Touch not my anointed; and do my prophets no harm" is a mantra.

I do not believe that cursing is right in most circumstances as it introduces more evil and suffering into the earth.
In a few ocassions people commit crimes that are so heinous that the people at the receiving end of their crimes feel justified to utter curses on them. I sincerely hope I don't find myself in such a situation.

"touch not my anointed; and do my prophets no harm" is contained in the bible.
Anyone who minds his business and does not go about gossiping will most likely never find himself/herself contravening the "mantra"

Therefore I don't think you should worry yourself about it.
The same thing goes for asking honest questions about the veracity of the bible or the whole of Christianity.

as for atheist arguments >>> leave 'em to me >>> what is my major concern as regards my personal faith and the organized Christianity >>> is what i previously outlined in the 3 questions i gave and expatiated upon

In that case let me try to tackle them.

@ uyi

Well I wouldn't advise you to bear grudges of any kind against anyone or anything.

I think you should focus on Jesus rather than on organized christianity.

Please post the atheistic ideas that have made your Christianity to be reduced to its lowest ebb so we can tackle them to the end that your Christianity can come alive again.

God loves you.

Assume I was Just born today, I have been born with no preconceived notion of God. Preachers from every religion on the face of this planet including you have come before me and spoken. Now the question is this, can you intellectually tell me Why I should  take your christian God as the true God and disregard others? Why should I believe you?

First if you were born today there would be no need to preach to you.
Life is designed such that circumstances and situations are supposed to lead you on a search for truth.

Truth for truth's sake doesn't really mean anything.
For example what would it mean to you if we were debating on the brand of my computer if you didn't even know who I was and had no business with the brand of my computer?

Also if you were born today and faced judgement today there would be nothing to judge you on.

I do not like being circular so I'd appreciate it if you give me a realistic place to start. Thank you.

Guy, nothing against your intentions for the opening up of this thread (i understand, since your god is incapable of speaking for himself) but i think it'll be best to recommend people to do their own studying themselves than rely on the ill-conceived explanations from an anonymous online forumer. explanations relating to the christian faith is subjective, this is why we have thousands of divergent and differing theologies and denominations (even you yourself have already started clashing with a fellow christian on the explanation of all that pre/post adamic bullcrap). people should go study history (both jewish and christian and everything around that) themselves, read the bible themselves and be able to discern themselves what the crap is about. as for me, I've read/studied the bible enough to see it for what it is--a book of mostly unsubstantiated jewish historical accounts laced with a bunch of jewish legends and myths and fairy tale stories plagiarized from other ancient religions prior--only a brainwashed and deluded person would think otherwise

Yes people should do their own studying.
Studying involves getting information from various sources and verifying the information before drawing conclusions.
I believe getting information from people who have studied a subject you wish to study is a good way to study hence this thread.

There are various ideas I have concerning issues that the bible is silent about. Pre-adamic life is one of such issues.
In cases like this I just have opinions not convictions.

I have two questions for you:
1. What are the things you read in the bible that convinced you that only a brainwashed and deluded person would think it is not a book of myths and fairy tales?
2. What do you believe in or rather what is your belief system?

@logic. Please Evolution vs Biblical creation account which should i trust from a theistic view point?

Evolution is as theoretical as theoretical can get. It has not been proved but proving it is not even the real problem as atheists also say there is no empirical proof of the Biblical creation account.

The problem with Evolution is that it does not explain how imagination and other meta-physical characteristics of Man evolved.
Darwinists (proponents of the evolution theory) have only been trying to explain the evolution of the physical attributes of Man.

Another thing is that you cannot say that just because two things are similar then one of them evolved from the other.
When darwinists try to sell me the evolution theory by saying that 99% of human genes are contained in the ape I simply tell them that God chose to create our physical bodies that way.

The genius of man is not his physical body. The genius of man is imagination and other meta-physical attributes. Those are the things that really separate us from the animal kingdom.

Therefore from any point of view Evolution cannot be correct.

Brother, I think this is inadequate as I said before, every religion out there will give 'satisfactory' answers if you asked to give reasons why you shouldn't join them. They all have some form of answer and explanations to whatever objection you might have. Its normal.

My basic question I ask every one be you of whatever faith is, Why should I take your God as the true God?

Ok let's start this way.
Explain your fundamental belief system so I can have some bearing in answering your open-ended question.

Please I will like to see your Biblical proof for any pre-Adamic creation (i.e. before the 6 days of creation in Genesis).

I don't think I have come across a direct allusion to a pre-Adamic creation.

Genesis 1:1 says the earth BECAME without form and void therefore if it became then it was something before.

Also the bible doesn't say there was no pre-Adamic life.
I may be wrong but I have not found proof that I am wrong.

I hope I have answered your question.

There were no animals of any kind before Genesis 1:2. The Bible does not say there were.

The dinosaurs were animals created at the same time as, say, the horses, cats and lizards. I believe they went extinct over time just like the dodos did. This is the reason humans are more concerned about wildlife conservation now than ever before.

The pre-Adamic creation story is fallacious eisegesis.

There are many theories for pre-Adamic life and some are definitely fallacious exegeses but that does not mean that pre-adamic life is a fallacious exegesis.

I have not come across any proof that dinosaurs were created at the same time as the animals we know today.
In fact carbon dating prooves that dinosaurs were wiped out approximately 65 million years ago therefore except carbon dating is fallacious then dinosaurs were not created the same time as the animals we know today.

Also note that I did not say pre-Adamic man, I said pre-Adamic life.

Yes indeed. The questions placed before me now is Why should I accept the christian God as the true God and disregard all others?

Well, If I attempt to answer this open-ended question, I risk spending all my time in the process and still not answering it sufficiently for you.
Note that an answer that is sufficient for me may not be sufficient for you as we do not have exactly the same circumstances in life.

Another way to look at this is for you to post reasons why you think you shouldn't accept Christianity and let me try to tackle them.

Thank you.

Thanks for your reply. But I'm gonna say most religions have their theory about what you call the '4 fundamental questions of human existence'. What I want to know is why should I believe the christian story?

It is true that there are so many questions to be answered.

I think it is better if one focuses on answering the questions that are placed before him/her by their unique situations and circumstances in life.

So sir, what questions has life placed before you?

Destiny: What happens when we die?

According to the bible, humans were not meant to die until sin was introduced into the earth.
Now, it is appointed unto men to die once and after that to be judged on how their lives were spent on the earth.

We are not exterminated at death. Our spirits and souls are merely detached from our physical bodies.

P.S. I think it will be better if I answer closed-ended questions one by one as there are so many ocassions for digressions when answering open ended questions.

Meaning / Purpose: What are we here for?

The bible says God created humans to be in charge of the earth that He had created. We are the guardians of the earth!
The earth was here long before us.

The bible says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and the earth BECAME void and without form.
I believe this must have been as a result of the cataclysmic event that wiped out the dinosaurs. (most likely as a result of the sin of the first guardians)
God then recreated the earth and made everything good before creating man as the guardian.

God commanded man to be responsible for the earth.
(Gen 1:28 MSG) God blessed them: "Prosper! Reproduce! Fill Earth! Take charge! Be responsible for fish in the sea and birds in the air, for every living thing that moves on the face of Earth."

God created man to tend and nurture His other creation similar to the way a computer programmer creates a master controller to direct all the other parts of his program.

Evil and Human Suffering: Why is there so much suffering?

The bible explains that when God created us, there was neither suffering nor sin on earth but everything was Good!
Sin came into the world when Adam (the first man) disobeyed God's command fully knowing that the consequences of his disobedience would be death!
Sin disrupted the entirety of God's creation on the earth.
When sin came into the world evil and suffering came with it.
Evil and Suffering are consequences of sin.

Can you really tell me why I should believe the christian God is the one true God and Why I should disregard all others?

God bless you!

I believe that Christianity is the right way because it is the belief system that most satisfactorily answers the 4 fundamental questions of human existence. Origin, Evil and human suffering, Meaning/Purpose and Destiny.

Origin: Where did we come from?
The bible says that God (a supernatural and transcendent being) created us in His image.

Faith is "belief in things that aren't based on fact."

No my friend!
The word faith in modern times has come to mean belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof
Microsoft® Encarta® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Faith (as I use the word) is belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something as a result of logical proof of the veracity of the person or thing.

The bible does not generally encourage belief without at least a logical proof.
The bible itself engages the reader in intellectual discussions proving it's own veracity.
Most of us are either too busy or too lazy to follow through with the intellectual discussions in the bible that's why it appears that the bible encourages faith without proof.

Readers of the bible will notice time and time again that biblical characters usually give veracity to their mission, purpose or prophetic assignments.
Many times the bible records ", as it was written, "

I plead with all christians to drop the intellectually lazy approach of just zoning everything to blind belief in the name of religion or trust in God.
Think of this: Would you be a Christian if you were not born a Christian? Think about the things you'd have been missing!

Jesus wants us to understand the bible by intellectually interacting with it not just believe it lazily.

(Luk 24:45 MKJV) And He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures.

Here are the basic FACTS. . . . .

1. NO God has ever said he knows the innermost thoughts of any body. . .People made those statements and ascribed it to what ever concept of God they imagined. . . . .

2. The fact that you are here talking about your God and trying to make a case for him shows that he exists ONLY in your imaginations and beliefs, I thought the bible says Yahweh once used his hand to write a message on wall for all to see. . . .Now the men have advanced Yahweh ran way abi?. . . . .

You cannot prove the above statements and therefore they are NOT basic facts.
You have to have infinite knowledge to prove statement 1.

The fact that I am talking about God and making a case for him does not show that He exists ONLY in my imagination.
Does the fact that an ambassador makes a case for the president of his country in a foreign country prove that the president of his country exists ONLY in his imagination?

It was not God who wrote on the wall!
(Dan 5:5 MSG) At that very moment, the fingers of a human hand appeared and began writing on the lamp-illumined, whitewashed wall of the palace. When the king saw the disembodied hand writing away,
(Dan 5:24 MSG) "God sent the hand that wrote on the wall,

That God does not immediately kill you when you say crazy things about Him does not prove that He has run away, it may mean that He loves you so much that He is giving you time, hoping that you'll realise your mistake and accept His offer of forgiveness.

More drivel. . . .Where is the free will when Yahweh was all over the place hardening people's hearts in the bible, or did free will not exist at that time?. . . .

You must be referring to the time when the bible says God hardened the heart of Pharoah.

Explanation:
Pharoah had already shown himself to be a tyrant. By saying He will harden pharoah's heart, God meant He would cause pharoah's heart to be hardened. God could have caused pharoah's heart to be hardened by a series of events which would have convinced pharoah that he could get away with keeping the jews under bondage.
This is similar (not the same though) to a sun tzu war quote "Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate."

How is that unjust?. . . . .Humans themselves are trying to end human suffering what more of a "loving" God that loves humans?. . . .Are you now saying that you know the mind of your imaginary God or what?. . . . .So what crime did humanity commit? One Man in a fable eating some fruit out of a tree? Don't tell me you believe that fable. . . .Any way that's how religion functions. it makes things up, tell people that they have offended some imaginary God with very ludicrous concepts and promises a way out of the cleverly concocted  jargon . So humans have offended your imaginary God, eh? When did any God appear to you and tell you that?. . . . . .Crazy people. . . . .

God is also trying to end Human suffering. The problem is that he will not just wish it away.
Would you think it is just if a united states supreme court judge unilaterally acquits Osama Bin Laden (without any form of punishment) with the knowledge that he was the mastermind of the september 11 attacks?

Wishing away an offence is not just.

In order to end human suffering God sent His son Jesus Christ, a human being born of a virgin and without sin to die in our place.
God is definitely in the process of putting an end to human suffering my friend.

I hope I have answered your question.