₦airaland Forum

Have you read the OT pat of the bible? Or are you just feigning ignorance for convenience sake?

No I am not.

Killing with a sword or spear was the fastest way to kill in ancient times. The only way God ever ordered jews to kill was with the sword or spear so (without comparing this to modern times) how would you call that brutal?

Brethren, this is just a statement that declares blatant acceptance of murderous tyranny. This is what you have just said, "Just because my tyrant maims, kills and destroys, does not mean that i have the right to criticize him, nor do i see him as evil. But if the tyrant happens to be somebody else's and does exactly the same atrocities, then he is worthy of my condemnations and damnations, simply because he is not my tyrant". This is just the heights of hypocrisy.

If God is on the same level as we are (i.e. a human being) then the above statement is true.
If God created us then He is not on the same level as we are and thus can do some things that we cannot, If you have a problem with this statement please point it out.

If the act of taking lives for the sake of giving a better life in the afterlife should be accepted, then we killing and murdering should also be seen as a positive thing, which is crazy! Are you creating these excuses because of the deity involved?

Let's just accept, bizarrely, that these acts of taking life are driven by compassion, why do they have to be done in such brutal fashion? Why dehumanise in order to be compassionate? These are just crazy excuses to begin with.

That God can do something does not give humans the right to do the same thing. If we are God's creation then it follows that He can do whatever He wishes with us (with the caveat that it has to be just). Humans on the other hand are on the same level therefore they do not have any right to kill.

Do you have a particular example where God ordered the jews to kill people in a brutal way? I do not think I have come across any such example

^^^ Reincarnation is a matter involving spirituality.

You do not generally get to prove spiritual things via physical methods.

I should like you to tell me in what empirical way the existence of "heaven" in which you believe, has been proved.

This is true in a way,
The existence of heaven can be proved logically not empirically. God's house = Heaven therefore if God exists and He has a house then heaven exists. I believe heaven is just another planet, maybe in another dimension,

Is there any form of logical explanation for reincarnation?

^^ when did he appoints you as his mouth piece?
My answer is very clear and again have it for the second time incase you miss the first

No problem sir!
I was just offering my 2 cents. It is up to the reader to go through the points I raised and make his/her conclusions.

@everyone
I hope I have answered the questions raised in this thread. Any other questions can be posted so we can try our best possible to give answers as much as YHWH will help us to.

^^ MSG what!
Guy say anything you want and qoute from even the book of death if you wish.
Those verses were very clear yahwah is an accomplice in this crime with thesame motives and intentions to decieve and cause harm.

Ok sir!
Sorry for trying to convince you. I thought the main point of the thread was to debate.

@Rhino

I believe I have answered some of the questions that prompted people to conclude that YHWH is blood thirsty.
If you have any unanswered questions please post them.

Its very clear that Yahweh has a penchant for sending lying spirits to people or deceiving people himself as recorded in the bible(Isaiah 37:7 and 2 Kings 19:7). The problem is if you read down in the book of Jeremiah you will see that Yahweh even acknowledge that he does evil and he apologized for the evil he did. . .

The above is fallacious and very misleading.
(Isa 37:6 MSG) Isaiah said, "Tell your master this: 'GOD's Message: Don't be upset by what you've heard, all those words the servants of the Assyrian king have used to mock me.

(Isa 37:7 MSG) I personally will take care of him. I'll arrange it so that he'll get a rumor of bad news back home and rush home to take care of it. And he'll die there. Killed--a violent death.'"

How is God lying here? Note that everything is a rumor until it is verified therefore the fact that something is a rumor does not mean it is a lie.
The king in the passage would only have confirmed the truth of the rumors when he got home.

EZ 14:9 - "'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.

you have to understand the tone of the verse to really get its meaning as we don't speak King James English anymore.
A more contemporary translation is as follows:

(Eze 14:9 MSG) "'If a prophet is deceived and tells these idolaters the lies they want to hear, I, GOD, get blamed for those lies. He won't get by with it. I'll grab him by the scruff of the neck and get him out of there.

JER 4:10 - Then I said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD, how completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, 'You will have peace,' when the sword is at our throats."

JER 20:7 - O LORD, you deceived me, and I was deceived you overpowered me and prevailed. I am ridiculed all day long; everyone mocks me.

These are the lamentations of a weary prophet.
There are times in life when everything seems to be going bad. During those times people lament and when they lament they say things like what jeremiah was saying above. This is a "perfectly human" reaction but does not mean that God actually deceived him.
If Jeremiah found out that God really deceived him the question is why didn't he quit being God's prophet?

^^ those verses were very clear so no need to suger coat them. it was evidently clear that yhwh was consorting with lying angels to cause and do harm which can be translated as crime or why should it different? ? Crime is a crime.
So let me get you proper, is all good if i use armed gangs to killed people which i perceived to be my enemies abi? They should all do thier terms in reputable jail hell fire period!

I don't think the above was directed at me but if it was then please explain your assertions.

It should be noted that God is not a human being therefore He can do SOME things that we are not allowed to do.
It is well within God's rights to kill a human being since He created the human being whereas it is wrong for a human being to kill as we did not create anyone.

@deepsight
I have given some answers on the posts at the links you posted.

If you have anymore questions, I'll be glad to take them on as much as YHWH helps me.

This is probably the hardest of all arguments against YHWH.

My Opinion is as follows:

1. There is another form of life after death.
2. Life as we know it is infinitessimal (extremely short) when compared to life after death.
3. If ending life on earth (which is a very short spell) gives a chance for better life after death then it can be debated that God is justified to sanction killing an individual.
4. God sanctioned the killing of the cannanites et cetera because they were a civilization gone extremely bad. History shows that they did extremely terrible things.
It should also be noted that if the jews did not kill those people they would have been killed. It was actually a war situation - Kill or be killed!

5. (I know this sounds inhuman) Notice that when God talks about killing foreigners to the Isrealites, it is usually a quick death (by the sword) as can be surmised by the actions of samuel the prophet when he killed AGAG the king that saul spared.
6. I also believe that if someone believes that God has asked him to kill you, you are well within your rights to defend yourself because you cannot be sure that God actually asked the person to kill you! (before I'm labeled a jihadist!)
7. God did not (in my opinion) ask hitler to murder the jews even though He permitted it. Even though it was a very cruel act, from God's perspective (not hitler's) it was Justice. Remember that the jews asked that the blood of Jesus be upon them and their children when pilate declined to kill Jesus.
8. I do not support genocide in any way or any form of murder because I am human but genocide and other cruel acts are balancing out other cruel acts or sins to maintain Justice on the earth (in my opinion).
9. Genocide will always be bad from a human perspective but we cannot say the same from God's perspective.
10. This does not fully apply but as the creator of a device you are well within your rights to destroy that same device by any means you choose.

This is going to be hard,

2Ch And Micai'ah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left;
2Ch 18:19 and the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab the king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said one thing, and another said another.
2Ch 18:20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.' And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?'
2Ch 18:21 And he said, 'I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go forth and do so.'
2Ch 18:22 Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets; the LORD has spoken evil concerning you."

1. The above is as can be seen the interpretation of an heavenly event by a man. Note that this is a biographical account of some sorts.
2. YHWH is not a liar because even though he allowed the lying spirit He still made sure that the recipient of the information from the lying spirit heard the truth from a true prophet.
3. The lying spirit as can be deduced from the passage was not one of God's angels.
4. Many times when the King james Version translates something as God did this or that, it really means God allowed this or that.

@deepsight
Great Posts. It will take some time to answer all the questions.
I will have to approach it question by question.

I do not believe that God is impersonal. I believe God has His agenda which he is pursuing on the earth but does so within the limits of His laws.

The issue is that God cannot subvert justice and remain God therefore He will not just "will away" human suffering.

The theory of reincarnation a la buddhism et cetera remains an unproven theory! It has not been substantiated in any empirical way.
The same goes for darwinism.

I hereby humbly challenge anyone (especially huxley) who has any doubts about the christian faith to post them here on Nairaland so we can tackle them. BY GOD's GRACE.

Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:

"You are a fool for denying the existence of the IPU. You have rejected true faith and have relied on your feeble powers of human reason and thus arrogantly denied the existence of Her Divine Transcendence, and so are you condemned."

If such arguments are good enough for Yahweh, they are good enough for Her Invisible Pinkness.

I concur!
Christians should please endeavour as the bible advises to ", Give an answer to those that ask us the reasons for our hope, " rather than just expecting people to have blind faith in a concept they do not understand.

(1Pe 3:15) but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason of the hope in you, with meekness and fear;

I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and freethinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is so contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.

I believe I have disproved all the arguments in this post therefore reasonable and freethinking individuals can now accept the existence of YHWH whose nature is very consistent. (pun intended)

A God who knows everything cannot have emotions

A God who knows everything that can POSSIBLY happen can have emotions!
It is possible that a plane can crash! Why then do we feel any emotion when a particular plane crashes?

The reason God was angry with Adam was that the probability that Adam would sin was very remote given everything Adam had.
This is analogous to a son who is given the best education but still ends up a poor man!

A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible

I believe I have taken care of the above statement in an earlier post.

The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them

The above quote is fallacious and misleading.
The prophecy in Isaiah 7 was fulfilled EXACTLY as it was predicted.

Please post any contradictions you find in the fulfilment of the prophecy.

The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

I do not see any confusion as to who Esau's wives are.
(Gen 26:34) And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Basemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite;
(Gen 28:9) then Esau went to Ishmael, and took Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael, Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to the wives which he had for his wife.

Timnah was the name of a person and soon became the name of a place, I do not see any contradiction!

The lineage of Jesus was traced through his mother and then through his surrogate father. That explains the lineage through Solomon and the one through Nathan.

One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, despoiled, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.

The quote from Ezekiel 18 that includes the assurance that sons will no more DIE for the sins of their fathers is too long to post here.
The passage has to be read in context for proper understanding and of course it comes AFTER all the events posted above.
Also note that the bible says NO MORE that means it acknowledges that this was the case before.

Punishing a son for the sin of his father may be a wrong thing to do but we must realise that the punishment most times is not direct punishment which can be said to be wrong . Most of the times (and that's what the bible is refering to) it is indirect punishment as in the case of a spoilt family name.
Realise that everyone in Nigeria received some form of indirect punishment for the sin of AbdulMuttallab the underwear bomber!

Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

The above statement is based on the fallacious premise that revealing His perfect will directly to each of us would produce a much different response.

God revealed His will to Adam DIRECTLY but yet Adam disobeyed!

The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us.

Yes, God can by a mere act of will eliminate all human suffering but in so doing God will self destruct as eliminating all human suffering is an unjust decision. It may be a kind decision from a human point of view but it is not a JUST decision. God is not only a KIND God. God is a JUST God.

When there is a crime, there has to be punishment. That is Justice.

Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

If they do not ACCEPT the gospel of Jesus Christ,
You cannot ACCEPT what you have not heard, therefore people who have not heard the gospel of Jesus Christ cannot be condemned based on whether they accepted Jesus or not.
The bible supports my argument. See the following verses below.

(Act 10:34)  Then Peter opened his mouth and said, Truly I see that God is no respecter of persons;

(Act 10:35)  but in every nation he who fears Him and works righteousness is accepted with Him.

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

The debate should be whether SIN is finite or infinite. I would argue that SIN is actually infinite.
Eating a fruit that you have been told not to eat is a very forgiveable offense but when the consequence of eating that fruit is the corruption of the entire EARTH then it is no more the same as being merely disobedient. Every sin committed corrupts the earth more!
The problem is that you do not know the real consequence of sin!
This is also consistent with the fact that God had to "Create" another human Jesus Christ to come and die in our place to atone for SIN

God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

God is not omniscient in the way that most people say He is. If he was then the above quote holds true.

In my opinion, God knows all things in that he knows all the possible outcomes of all the possible decisions that all humans can ever make.
God does not know what decision a human being WILL make even though He knows all the decisions the human being CAN make. If God knows the decision that I WILL make then I do not really have free will.

Logic1 - these are truly brilliant posts above. Might I ask one question please - did you previously go by the username - "Easylogic"?

Beacuse your logic flows as smoothly, as effortlessly and easily as his did.

Thank you.
No, I am not Easylogic but I would like to go through his posts. I'll appreciate a link or two

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

God does not have free will in the same way we have free will.
The day God makes a wrong decision the universe as we know it will collapse.
Imagine what would happen if gravity stopped beign gravity as we know it.

Humans were created after his likeness. As soon as humans made a wrong decision they lost the image of God but since they are not in the same order as God the universe did not self destruct like what would happen if God makes a wrong decision

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

The accurate statement is that for there to be love there must be freewill. It's not a question of happiness but one of love.
You cannot love something except you are free not to love that thing.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. [ If "can come" means "can be born from" then this statement is CORRECT]
What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect. [If perfect means complete then this statement is FALSE]

God created a perfect universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans.
A more accurate statement is "God created a good EARTH which was rendered BAD by humans who though created GOOD had become BAD because they were detached from the good GOD by taking a decision which they knew would detach them from the GOOD GOD"

A good tree can only bring forth good fruit, but a good fruit that is detached from the good tree will soon go bad.

Humans are not the children of God in the same sense that a fruit is the "child" of a tree.

If a genius creates a device does that automatically make the device created a genius?

The bible says humans were created GOOD not PERFECT! In fact, soon after God created Adam the first Man he soon said the words ", It is not good, "