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k2039: [size=13pt]what I know is that they are candidates for reverse psychology,they say one thing ,but they do directly opposite.
Proclaiming peace but the end up creating a war.
[/size]

A typical muslim is not allowed to question the quran and they dare not doubt...do u blame them when they live in falsehood. My prayer is that somehow, every muslim will have the courage n the grace to do a thoroug examination and islam.
Only so will they be able 2 see, with utter dismay, that everything about islam is just the fabrication and manipulations of the devil .

Question:
Does the Quran really contain dozens of verses promoting violence?

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran.

Most of today's Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book's many calls to violence according to what their own moral preconceptions find justificable. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad's own martial legacy - and that of his companions - along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history





The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:293, also). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars.

Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad (Arabic).

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

Quran (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction." (Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

Quran (18:65-81) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with "special knowledge" who does things which don't seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would "grieve" his parents by "disobedience and ingratitude." He was killed so that Allah could provide them a 'better' son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2).)

For more, you can visit: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

After reading this, the one question that begs for answer is: who would really blame the jihadist, the terrorist for his actions. As you can see all Muslims, if they are truly following the quran are called to offensive Jihad.

Maybe its time for all sound thinking Muslims and those that seek the truth to search with n unbiased mind for the truth.

vanariso: Helo B/sliders

I will advocate u read my submission b4 urs once again and see my advocacy.I think we should build better communication and interpersonal relations to solve these problems.

Many christians say "love ur neigbhouras u love urself"One of the ten commandments that Jesus told a man He must keep if he wants eternity--aljanat ---paradise

.Mohammed (SAW) says "The angel jibreel--Gabriel --kept advocating me on loving my neigbhour as i love myself to the extent I thought he will come one day and say my neigbhour is entitled to part of my inheritants.

This tells us both religion preaches peace.Mohammed (SAW) describe ur neigbhour as anyone 700 meteres on ur left,right,back and front.Dont u see every body is ur neigbhour?

U re stereotyping and all ur ascertions are without statistical backings and tantamount to voids.
If u say ISLAM=TERROR (astagfurulahi),Then u re saying about 60% of the world human populace are terrorist.Cant u see u re wrong.Every rational being can deduce u re wrong.Please get knowledgeable about Islam b4 u speak. Its a peaceful & honest way of comparative religion dialogue.

Muslims do not compel people to convert as this is totally against the faith's tenets and the word of Allah--Al-quran.It happened to Mohammed (SAW) as his uncle was dieing on a sick bed as a pagan and so also was Noah's son case and Lot's wife.

May Allah guide u to the right path if He so wishes.

It beats my imagination when muslims claim that islam doesn't compel people to convert to the faith simply because a line in the quran seems to say so. Now, that's the deciet in islam: it says one thing and does the direct opposite.

The prophet commanded his soldiers to capture the infidels and if anyone refuses to convert, he/she should face the sword or pay tax to the prophet...Jesus would never do that.

And talking about inter-religion dialog with muslims, it an utter waste of time. Jesus never did such with the Jews, instead he continued piercing their hearth with the word. That's the work every christain is commited to. Some Muslims will hear that word of the gospel and believe.

Piddo: SORRY TO POST THIS AGAIN, BUT CAN SOMEONE PLEASE HELP OUT HERE!!!

I would want to believe the Quran (spelling?), has quotable chapters and verses like the bible does. Dont you all think it would make an interesting task to specify the location of these "Muhammad sayings" so we can have our muslim brothers clarify for us?

I would specifically love to know exactly where Muhammad asked to spread the word by the sword and then have a muslim brother defend the statement.

The Koran's 164 Jihad Verses
Excerpt K 2:178-179
Set 1, Count 1+2 [2.178]...retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain... [2.179] ...there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.

Excerpt K 2:190-191
Set 2, Count 3+4 [2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Excerpt K 2:193-194
Set 3, Count 5+6 [193]...fight with them...[194]...whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you...

Excerpt K 2:216-218
Set 4, Count 7-9 [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you...[2.217]... fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter...persecution is graver than slaughter... [2.218]...strove hard in the way of Allah...

Excerpt K 2:244
Set 5, Count 10 ...fight in the way of Allah

Excerpt K 3:121-126
Set 6, Count 11-16 [3.121]...to lodge the believers in encampments for war...[3.122] When two parties from among you had determined that they should show cowardice [about Jihad]...[3.123]...Allah did certainly assist you at [the Battle of] Badr...[3.124]...[3.125] Yea! if you remain patient and are on your guard, and they come upon you in a headlong manner, your Lord will assist you with five thousand of the havoc-making angels. [3.126] ...victory is only from Allah...

Excerpt K 3:140-143
Set 7, Count 17-20 [3.140] If a wound has afflicted you (at [the Battle of] Uhud), a wound like it has also afflicted the (unbelieving) people; and We bring these days to men by turns, and that Allah may know those who believe and take witnesses from among you...[3.141] ...that He [Allah] may purge those who believe and deprive the unbelievers of blessings. [3.142] Yusuf Ali: Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without God testing those of you who fought hard (in His Cause) and remained steadfast? [3.143] Pickthall: And verily ye used to wish for death before ye met it (in the field). Now ye have seen it [death] with your eyes!


you can see the whole 169 violent verses in the quran here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html



here is a verse that stands out:

Excerpt K 3:152-158
Set 9, Count 22-28 [3.152]...you slew them by His [Allah's] permission [during a Jihad battle]...[3.153] Pickthall: ...the messenger, in your rear, was calling you (to fight)...that which ye missed [war spoils]...[3.154]...They say: Had we any hand in the affair, we would not have been slain here [in a Jihad battle]. Say: Had you remained in your houses, those for whom slaughter was ordained [in a Jihad battle] would certainly have gone forth to the places where they would be slain...[3.155] (As for) those of you who turned back on the day when the two armies met...[3.156] O you who believe! be not like those who disbelieve and say of their brethren when they travel in the earth or engage in fighting: Had they been with us, they would not have died and they would not have been slain...[3.157]...if you are slain in the way of Allah...mercy is better than what they amass [what those who stay home from Jihad receive – no booty on earth and no perks in heaven]. [3.158] …if indeed you die or you are slain, certainly to Allah shall you be gathered together.

After reading this, I want you muslims to compare Muhammed with Jesus Christ' message of "If a man spanks you at one cheek, turn the other for him." where is the bases for for comparison between Mohammed and Jesus. They are world apart.


Do you still blame the jihadist or the terrorist for his violent responses to issues. you only do that being ignorant of what the quran teaches.

Aggressa: @Olabowale et al:
It is very unfortunate how a discussion that should have been a pure intellectual exercise has turned rather distasteful, with exchange of nasty words. I tried to recap how it all started by reading through again from the beginning and I saw it was due to our all-knowing muslim 'friend' who will rather attack and educate the world (albeit ignorantly) on Jesus Christ and christianity at any given opportunity rather than discuss issues about their religion. It reminded me of one of the leading ignorant figures in islam today- a certain gentleman call Hamed Didat of South Africa. This man's own ministry is to attempt to discredit bible, Jesus and christianity like many of our discussant on this forum. He was very popular with our muslim students in my undergraduate days at OAU Ife but eventually they always end up more confused because  Christ is using the 'foolish things of the world to confound the worldly-wise like them'. Anyway, this could probably be my last post on this topic but I will like to go by informing everybody, christian and muslims, of a common false reference. We do not serve the same God. Our God, Jehovah, Yahweh, the Alpha and Omega who came doww to earth to redeem us from our sins as Jesus the Christ, is not the same as allah.

(1) Why do muslim face the east to pray? they say they are facing mecca!!, but even muslims in far east still face east (ideally they should face west if they want to face mecca; and the ones in north pole and south pole should face maybe south-east and north-east respectively if they want to face mecca) But they all face east all over the world- it is not that they are facing mecca but rather worshipping the sun. Read Ezekiel Chapter 8 vs 14 to 17.[i][/i]
(2) Why is the islamic symbols the crescent (half moon) and a star? (3) why do muslims always wait for the appearance of moon before they can start or end their so called ramadan at this time and age of 21st century? The reason is because their's is an idolatrous religion that worship the consterllations, i.e the sun, the moon and the stars, no wonder the constant urge to violence and shedding of blood, because sacrifice must be made to their master in "hades". All this takes a deeper spiritual understanding and we must continue to pray for the salvation of their souls and continue to bombard your neighbouhood, Europe, Nigeria, Africa, the middle east etc with gospel of Jesus through satellite TV, missionary works, evangelism and charity etc. Their souls are still precious to God and we must take the gospel of Jesus to them. Pray for your muslim friends, for their eyes which has been blinded from knowledge of truth by the rulers of darkness of this world to open. Remember, JEHOVAH is NOT allah!! don't be deceived!!. Remember he is a jealous God, and we must have no other God beside him; this also means don't call Him by a name that is not His, or think He is who he is not. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! Shalom

Shalom brother. we must continue to pray for the peace of the faithfuls in Jerusalem. If anybody is to gain anything from this post, it's that no man should make the mistake of thinking that Christians and Muslims serve the same God.

And just like Christ commanded we must continue to pray for them and also reach out to them with the message of the Gospel of truth.

olabowale: @Tom; thanks for starting this thread. Now about the pope, he has no fault. The pope has a golde foot in his mouth. If the pope were to be honest, he would have ststed the response of the Persian who argued with the Emperor.

God is wonderful. He destroyed the empire of the evil Emperor. Today, it is an islamic state of turkey.

Now, what did Muhammad (AS) brought. First Muhammad was an iconoclast. The destoyed all icons in the sense that before his movement, the people were of the believe of Multiple gods. The Arabs were worshipping one god per day.  The christians are in their triun concept. However brought the Universal concept of the Oneness of God. This concept, not only that it is true, but it appeal to the sense of reasoning in all Human beings.

In so doing, what Muhammad (AS) stated that God Almighty revealed to him was collected into a separate Book known as Qur'an. This is separated and different from what Muhammad (AS) said or did or permitted.

Muhammad encouraged education so much that he declared that one is to seek knowledge even if one were to travel to China. this was from a man in the desert of Arabia. As a result of this, Muslims under the Instruction of muhammad gain notoriarity and educated the whole world and indeed Europe for a long time.

As per the unity of god, it became acceptable that god is one and universal. Further there was a system developed in worship to include regiments of prayers and other responsibilities. part of this responsibilities include voluntary and compulsary charities.

The annual hajj and seasonal Umrah is pre United nations' citizens of the world's gatherings. In this meeting in Makka and madina, the Muslims close ranks, whereby there were no barriers as regarding to wealth, family positions, educations, age and other artificial classifications, inclusing sex.

Women are given same roles as regards to their responsibilities to God. Women were no more looked upon as  properties, instead they became property owners. some of them become wealthier than their husbands whereof they were given charity to these men.

Under muhammad and his followers Europe under the civilizations of the moors of north african blacks, from their posts in Andallusia and other locations in Spain, europe was cultured, civilized and educated for over 7 centuaries.

All branches of science, like both branches of Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Geology, Geophysics, Medicine, and others. The concept of Zero in math and other mathematical  concepts, including the numbers are also from Islam.

No one should forget the University of Timbuktu in mali. This University educated Europe even as far as Rome, the seat of papacy. Timbuktu excelled in all fields of education. Today, the treasure remaining in this repository is around a million, waiting for africa and proper fundings to put it in its proper place within the worlds of academics.

University of Al azhar in Cairo Egypt was formed based on Islamic academics. This university gave birth in its curriculums, matriculations and convocations, rituals even as to the gowns and caps/tassels, it is this University that all others around the world, to include Harvard, MIT, Cambrige, Oxford and other models there essence upon.

If Muhammad (AS) were to be available, all the Osu caste system in Igbo land of my beloved Nigeria will have been eradicated by the practising of Brotherly love and equality among all human being. Unfortunately, in all the centuaries that Christianity, espectially catholic brand of it has embedded itself in this group of nigerians, it has not been able to eliminate this classification known as caste system.

In time, when islam begins to make real inroad in that tribe, the people living then will see an elimination of this evil practise.

What did Muhammad bring; love, mercy and a way to truly ask for the forgiveness of god in true worship.

i will wait for others to put in their opinion before I respond further about the man known as Muhammad (AS).

I find it even hard replying to your senseless post. Everything you said is just twisted and directly contradictory. if you are a muslim, maybe you should try and open your eyes while you do a thorough rsearch on mohammed