₦airaland Forum

My lil bro visited our village and be became a hero for killing this creature. still scary to me.

Rashduct4luv:
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Well, i didn't know the meaning before but u should have explained! I know them as Quraniyoon!

That means you're not one. Thanks.

Rashduct4luv:
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Who is a Quranist?

Create a thread to answer your question pls. identify yourself if you're one. thanks.

Any Quranist here pls?

Stop using pidgin English

I'm quite choosy too. But when I see potential in sexual features and beauty, I believe I can build them up so I just accept her like that and plan towards using facial treats, boobs and butt enlargement creams to bring those potentials to reality, cos I like them big. Pimping my soulmate up is one of my priorities in life. I can't comman go and die.

Empiree:
Then you need to start from the start and stop wasting your time on what you comprehend not. Those verses you kept talking about are verses of war. I have debated that with christians here before and the guy had no problem with my argument.

You need to study history surrounding the wars, else you will end up making wrong judgement and or land yourself in another religion only to realize that, that's even worst.

Thanks.

Empiree:
Where exactly is your stand ?

I'm a Muslim who's being disturbed about some of our doctrines. Muslim is just the right religion

OnyeOGA:

appreciate what in Islam
Bro, there's nothing there to appreciate.

Oh! sorry about that, I was referring to people that use their brains. Its a free world after all, you can choose not to appreciate Islam.

OnyeOGA:
bla bla bla.
Islam is a religion of war
check this link https://www.nairaland.com/4251883/islam-religion-war

I had to open your link and alhamdullilah, all your quotations were from hadith. I'm not surprised. Islam is not just a religion of war, its of peace and morality too. Get that to your brain bro.

Its not like everything about Islam is war, war and war, other things are there too. Don't be blind with your hatred on Islam. Appreciate Islam at some point biko, its not like Christianity is free from wars and killings too. Stop being a hater.

tintingz:
I was.

You should be an atheist if you leave Islam, cos from my research, no religion on earth is in any way better than Islam.

I'll rather be an atheist or better still an agnostic of I'm not a Muslim. Islam is a religion of peace, you just need to understand her doctrine very well. That understanding is what I feel I'm lacking presently. No strings attached.

tintingz:
I've read the Quran and Hadiths, I don't find the rules perfect, so I would like to know how Islamic rules are perfect, give me reasons.

Are you a Muslim pls?

Oh finally. Thanks to AlBaqir though.

AlBaqir:
# I have asked you over and over: where in the verse have they been forced to accept Islam and then Salat, zakat etc?

* The aggressive and excessive Pagans should be fight till their evils are eradicated. In the course of fight, if one surrender and seek Muslim's protection, Qur'an says he should be protected, then Islam should be preach to him because he (they) are ignorant people. Those who maintain their peace with the Muslim, and do not cause fasad on the land should not be fight, Qur'an says.

Qur'an is crystal clear in its injunctions:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 256:

"There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing."


# Also, establishment of Salat, fasting, zakat etc have been explain to you using several verses of the Qur'an that those practices are necessary for the rehabilitation of pagans.

check verse 5 of surah 9, or better still:

9:5 When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.

AlBaqir:
Again the essence of Salat establishment, fasting, hajj etc is to refine whosoever believe in Allah and His Prophet. And what a better rehabilitating system for those kuffar!


Surah Al-Ankaboot, Verse 45:

Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and keep up prayer; surely prayer keeps (one) away from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah knows what you do.


Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 183:

O you who believe! fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may guard (against evil).

# There are verses about Hajj, Zakat, righteous deeds of the same genre too.



# Sura al-Araf: 30

"Some He guided, while others are committed to straying. They have taken the devils as their masters, instead of God, yet they believe that they are guided."


# The evident of this noble ayah is:

* Those that are to be fought were "committed to straying": they breached their agreement, continue their oppressive and aggressive actions. So, again why would you take the word of those people for truth?

* Majority of those who abide by the agreement accepted Islam at fightless, compel-less, bloodless conquering of Makkah in the 9th Hijrah.




# Obviously you did not get my analogy when I used boko haram as an example. For the safety of the society:

* You don't take the word of aggressive boko haram for truth. You hunt them down

* If they surrender, they are to be rehabilitated under the watchful eyes of NG over the years.

Those are rational things to do and not taking the word of those who broke their agreement, continue aggressions over the land and spilling innocent blood for no reason other than people do not follow them.

* The noble parents of Ammar Ibn Yassir (one of the greatest companions) were skinned alive and then beheaded by the Pagan, all because they refused to acknowledge the Lordship of those Pagan's idols. Ammar was spared by his Taqiyah (dissimulation). That is one incident out of many. Part of the agreement the Muslims signed with those evil and aggressive Pagans was that Muslims, their families and properties should be protected. Yet they continue their aggressive attack.


# Those who had taken Satan as patron can only get rehabilitation via the injunctions of Allah. I have given you part of Islamic rehabilitation system.




# Point out where I ever accepted @underline. You have stylishly evade all the questions I have asked you amongst whom was "what is the fate of those pagans who abide with the agreement, after the date expired?" Remember your assertion was that Qur'anic intention is to kill them all despite the fact that I pointed out to you that Qur'an says, "Muslims have no fight with them". Then, you ran away from another question which I asked saying, " from which ayah did you got such assertion that they are to be killed, all of them"?!

# @bold, absolutely, and unfortunately you seem pigheaded on your weak assertions that you failed to support with Qur'an, other than your thoughts which is even being exposed.

Lolz, I didn't run away bro. I just try as much as possible to avoid repetitions so we could just end this in no time.

On your first question, according to ayah 5 of Taubah, they are to be killed till they accept Islam

Same verse 5 answers your second question.

I don't know who ammar is, neither do I know who was skinned alive. I see your acceptance of those inhumane verses are due to your judgment on pagans from the so called Islamic history you have on your disposal. I accept that muslims were being oppressed and that prompted Allah to call for their(pagans) death by Muhammad's sword, can you at least accept that its wrong to stop killing these OPPRESSORS immediately they accepted ISLAM? You obviously won't.

At least its legal to kill a murderer in any part of the world but its definitely illegal to kill a non Muslim cos he's not Muslim.

Fundamentalist:
Let me ask you a question, what is your criteria for what is right and wrong ?

What do you use as your basis for judging what is morally right and wrong?

Let's Start from there ?

A lot of things stand as my basis, but on this topic, this:

Forcing humans, against their will, to do what they don't want to do.

Now I'm not even concerned with pagans being killed anymore, the verse might be revealed in the course of war. What I'm more concerned about is why must they give charity, observe prayers before they can be freed of being killed?

Fundamentalist:
Dear Op,

I read your write up and I was kind of drawn backwards but still all hope is not lost. Islam as a religion is laid up on the foundation of "لا اله الا الله محمد رسلوله" . it means you worship Allah and you obey the prophet (saw). This form of sub!mission is absolute not partial. Allah says

Al-Baqarah 2:208

يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا ٱدْخُلُوا فِى ٱلسِّلْمِ كَآفَّةً وَلَا تَتَّبِعُوا خُطُوَٰتِ ٱلشَّيْطَٰنِۚ إِنَّهُ‌و لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ

O you who have believed, enter into Islam completely [and perfectly] and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy.

Islamic doctrines are perfect from a Muslim and rational point of view. I would understand what make u see it a inhumane is as a result of the kind of education you were exposed to as you grew. The non Islamic laws you see as best are filled with uncountable flaws but this are rearly discussed because, owners of this Media centres are anti Islamic from onset. Back to the topic , one of the major reasons Allah cursed the Jews was as a result of believing in part of what Allah revealed and abandoning what they didn't like. As Allah says

Al-Baqarah 2:84-85

وَإِذْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَٰقَكُمْ لَا تَسْفِكُونَ دِمَآءَكُمْ وَلَا تُخْرِجُونَ أَنفُسَكُم مِّن دِيَٰرِكُمْ ثُمَّ أَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَنتُمْ تَشْهَدُونَ

And [recall] when We took your covenant, [saying], "Do not shed each other's blood or evict one another from your homes." Then you acknowledged [this] while you were witnessing.


ثُمَّ أَنتُمْ هَٰٓؤُلَآءِ تَقْتُلُونَ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَتُخْرِجُونَ فَرِيقًا مِّنكُم مِّن دِيَٰرِهِمْ تَظَٰهَرُونَ عَلَيْهِم بِٱلْإِثْمِ وَٱلْعُدْوَٰنِ وَإِن يَأْتُوكُمْ أُسَٰرَىٰ تُفَٰدُوهُمْ وَهُوَ مُحَرَّمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ إِخْرَاجُهُمْۚ أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ ٱلْكِتَٰبِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍۚ فَمَا جَزَآءُ مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلَّا خِزْىٌ فِى ٱلْحَيَوٰةِ ٱلدُّنْيَاۖ وَيَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَٰمَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰٓ أَشَدِّ ٱلْعَذَابِۗ وَمَا ٱللَّهُ بِغَٰفِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ

Then, you are those [same ones who are] killing one another and evicting a party of your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden to you. So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life ; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

The above verse is just an example of what the children of Israel used to do as regard to Allah's religion, what they like they do and what they don't like they reject. When we say they reject, what it means is that , they are saying "Allah thanks but no thanks" (wa iya zubillah) . Then the cursed and anger of Allah followed making their hearts to harden , as Allah says

Al-Baqarah 2:74

ثُمَّ قَسَتْ قُلُوبُكُم مِّنۢ بَعْدِ ذَٰلِكَ فَهِىَ كَٱلْحِجَارَةِ أَوْ أَشَدُّ قَسْوَةًۚ وَإِنَّ مِنَ ٱلْحِجَارَةِ لَمَا يَتَفَجَّرُ مِنْهُ ٱلْأَنْهَٰرُۚ وَإِنَّ مِنْهَا لَمَا يَشَّقَّقُ فَيَخْرُجُ مِنْهُ ٱلْمَآءُۚ وَإِنَّ مِنْهَا لَمَا يَهْبِطُ مِنْ خَشْيَةِ ٱللَّهِۗ وَمَا ٱللَّهُ بِغَٰفِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ

Then your hearts became hardened after that, being like stones or even harder. For indeed, there are stones from which rivers burst forth, and there are some of them that split open and water comes out, and there are some of them that fall down for fear of Allah . And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

The heart of a Jew is more harder than a stone my brother, why ? Because they knew of Allah's religion, its rulings, they understood it and ultimately rejected it. This is the reason anytime we offer salat we say.

Al-Fatihah 1:7

صِرَٰطَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ ٱلْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا ٱلضَّآلِّينَ

The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.

This is the basic reason why we call to tauheed.

Qur'anic laws are just, rational and very humane if you were to do more research on Islamic laws . You will greatly appreciate the religion of Islam when you understand the Islamic laws. There is also

[url]islamiconlineuniversity.com[/url]

The website is owned by Dr bilal Philips. There are courses in foundational Islamic studies that will really educate you on Islamic and that away that notion of yours.

If still u are unsatisfied you can pm me so as talk more on WhatsApp or meet you personally. I have tons of materials you can read in English that will greatly benefit you.

This issues is not what can be learned in a day you will need serious dedication to research as well as understanding which is more important in your case.

I pray that Allah gives you a good understanding of the religion Just as said by the prophet (saw)


I just hope I was able to say something to you.

You did say a lot. Thanks and honestly its getting more complicated than I had expected, seriously giving me headache already. I'll agree with everything in the Qur'an after my deep research. But for now, I won't deny the fact that I don't agree with everything there irrespective of those verses you quoted from chapter 2 of the Qur'an. Agreeing with everything in the Qur'an is the same as agreeing that Allah is not loving and unfair at the same time. Agreeing with everything makes me question Islam, makes me want to embrace atheism, The God I serve can't be that inconsiderate and totally be unfair.

In fact, If I start agreeing with everything there, it makes me no better than boko haram, isis and their likes. Yes its crystal clear the westerns/jews dislike Islam and using muslims against muslims but its important you know that they won't be able to use muslims if some verses in the Qur'an were not there for them to capitalize on.

What if those verses you quoted from baqarah were kept there by these same westerners/jews? What if they kept them there for us not to question their hatred? You see how intermingled these things are getting. I'm done with this already, I don't want to question Islam anymore, at least till after my findings.

BTW thanks for the link, I've been there before.

AlBaqir:
# The essence of "repentance, establishment of regular prayers and practice of good deeds" is to refine human being genuinely and sincerely.


* What guarantee can you have from those whom their lord is shaitan? Absolutely nothing other than evil. These were people who violated agreement and continue excessiveness and oppression through the land. What assurance can you get from them if they retreat, surrender after being over powered? You take their word for truth and let them go just like that?


# Nigerian Army are on the hunt of Boko haram aggressive oppressions over the weak. The only condition given to them is "repent and turn a new leave". How does Government ensure they turn a new leave? Rehabilitation over the years with watchful eyes. That rehabilitation in Islam is " Islamic belief system, establishment of Salat etc.

No! The essence of those is to make a human a Muslim, and in this case, against his will. I can show you a million and one people that observe those after repenting but still not refined genuinely and they are still humans.


These same people with shaitan as their lord went into a mutual alliance with the ummah, I don't see that as evil. If Muhammad was asked to take their word for truth and were even exempted from being slayed by Muhammad cos of their mutual agreement, then I believe its safe to take their words for truth. Letting them go isn't jeopardizing anything.

Rehabilitating them is made to bring them to normality, to bring them to their normal lives before becoming a boko haram. They're not being rehabilitated to make them become Christians because its generally accepted that the boko harams are Muslims.

I see you accepting the fact, that innocent pagans were being killed for no just cause, which is a good development already. You don't force Islam on anyone, Surah Taubah is either being misunderstood by me or Surah Taubah is not from Allah but for now I'll stick with the latter while I research more. And pls don't try to twist it, Its just too clear for that.

AlBaqir:
# It seems you've been able to agree that (at least) those who did not breach their agreement (of sulh - peace) and do not cause trouble are to be left untouched. This is the first point which you did not want to accept at first.

# Now going to the next new case: The fate of those pagan who abide by the agreement. How should they be treated after the agreement date elapsed?!

* You are of the understanding that the intention (from the Qur'an) is to kill them all. Please from where did you got that information and interpretation?


It is even surprising how you feel so reluctant and hellbent to accept the clear fact that those pagan to be fought were aggressors and oppressors. Two verses from that same Tawbah: 1 - 10 accused them of such yet you are hellbent that the fight and killing of them is of the intention of forcing Islam down their throat. Haba!

* Anyway, give us according to Qur'an that once the time of agreement elapsed, the injunction is to kill the remaining pagan. Please save twisting.

# Again, may I ask you what are the conditions/terms stated in the agreement signed by the Pagan and Muslims in the 6th Year Hijrah?

And for your information, the cause of agreement was the fact that Muslims were denied of performing pilgrimage (hajj) at Makkah as the Pagan made it their own property and worship place.




# You are free to feel anything but for it to be accepted in academic arena, you have to bring CLEAR evidence not what you felt.

# I love the way you acknowledged that those view of yours is "worst thing". And even if you felt you are the only one that will make it to Jannah, it doesn't affect me in anyway. Your feelings is your feeling.


Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 113:

"And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ."

Wallahi I thought I ended this earlier, I'll check other parts of the Qur'an to explain to me how better to deal with non Muslims but before then:

If the whole of surah Taubah was for the oppression the ummah were being subjected to by the pagans of their time and Islam is a peaceful religion that is not compulsory on anyone as we all claim, then verse 5 ought not to be in suratul Taubah or better still, verse 5 shouldn't give a condition of "if they repent, and ESTABLISH regular prayers and PRACTISE regular charity". Its just too clear for anybody to comprehend. You don't want to tell me that you have to be a Muslim to stop oppressing Muslims as at that time. I believe there were pagans that didn't oppress Muslims by then and weren't in any agreement with the Muslim ummah too and unfortunately according to verse 5 of Taubah, even those have to be slayed and lay ambush for. You see my point now?

Verse 5 was supposed to be of the condition: "if they retreat or stop oppressing you" if really it were for oppression. Can't you just see these things for God's sake?

Not forgetting iamgenius too. Thanks a lot too.

usermane:
No. Your rejection of certain doctrines and laws like amputating hands of thieves doesn't necessarily amount to sin or disbelief. Conviction ought to be your pillar for belief not blind faith. If you feel, a doctrine compromises moral and ethical principles, it is not wrong to reject such doctrine because the Book of God exhort man to investigate and verify whatever information that reaches him(Qur'an 17:36)



It is impossible to reject verses of Qur'an and still be Muslim. If you feel any verse of the Qur'an reeks of inhumane teachings, I encourage you to seek alternate interpretation of such verse from within and outside your Qur'anic school of thought. You might find the problem lies not with the verse but your misunderstanding of the verse.

PS: When I started reading the Qur'an, I harbored my doubts as well. There were verses that didn't convince me. I would later realize that I was reading these verses with preconceived interpretation that is promoted in the mainstream Muslim community. Once I ventured out of the mainstream Muslim community, I found interpretations that clarified most of my doubts on the verses. That is why I encourage you to seek alternative interpretation of the verses rather than the interpretation championed in your society. The mainstream community of any monotheistic religion like Islam almost always represent a distorted version of the religion and the true adherents of the religion are almost always a minority.(Qur'an 12:103, 106)

Peace and have a great weekend.

Thanks a lot on those.

I think using your tactics will be better as I believe Islam is still the best and accepted faith, plus its the last of its kinds. I'll do just those.

I'm more concerned cos I'm a quranist and its like my last point of rescue, Quran, was giving me reasons to denounce Islam, auzubillah. Thanks for checking in on this thread.

And thanks to AlBaqir too, his presence was precious. I love Islam and will like to learn more, any day, any time. Salam.

AlBaqir:
# There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that clear arrangement of the verse.

See what verse 4 starts with "EXCEPT". This word of exception make us expect a command which is given in verse 5. So, whether it comes before or after verse 5, it is perfectly placed. Its like saying the following:

" Except Allah Who is One and most Powerful, there is no god"

"There is no god, except Allah Who is One and most Powerful "

Is there any difference as to the position of "Except"?!

# To further buttress my point, why would Qur'an further stressed about those among the Idolators (in verse 4) thus:


Surah At-Taubah, Verse 7:

"How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty)."




# Am afraid you are the one imagining "genericity" that is not there. Verses 4 and 7 dismiss your thought of "genericity"; those are exceptions from the whole of Pagans. Even from among the transgressors that verse 5 is commanding war against, there is still exception to whoever seek protection. Muslims are commanded to protect them, then they are to use that opportunity of mercy to preach to them, if they agree or not afterwards, make them safe (verse 6).


The initial injunction of God still stand:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 190:

"And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with
you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not
love those who exceed the limits."

* In those narrative which surprisingly you see as "generic" despite clear exceptions, only the aggressors are to be pursue fight.




# First where's your proof that "the so-called Islamic history" was fabrication? You don't just assume something.
The first Muslim historian was Ibn Ishaq (d. 85 H); going by his date of death (85th year Hijrah), it means that he met lots of companions of the Prophet whom he took his historical accounts from as they were first hand witnesses. His student ibn Hisham (d. 183 H) who preserved the work of his teacher also met some of these companions, some of whom died in 100 H, 120 H etc.

History is science which must be able to be proven. In Islamic history studies just like in hadith narratives, we have what we called "chain of transmitters (sanad)" which contain names from one generation to the other that must eventually link the Prophet vis-a-vis the phenomenon.


# Second, there's something we called "asbab nuzul - reasons of revelation". Every chapter of the Qur'an has story/reasons behind its revelation. Now, let me ask you a question based on this verse:

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 3:

"And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve."

# Which liability is being refer to? That is where the narrative lies and that is where history helps. Yet, Qur'an gives the glimpse of that narrative:


Surah At-Taubah, Verse 8:

How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors.


Surah At-Taubah, Verse 10:

They do not pay regard to ties of relationship nor those of covenant in the case of a believer; and these are they who go beyond the limits.

Bro, if verse 4 and 5 ain't being translated to you as Allah asking Muhammad to kill till these pagans, whether those with an agreement or not, accept Islam by observing salat, giving alms which are core Islamic practices, then I'm done explaining.


4: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the END of their TERM: for Allah loveth the righteous.

Those words in uppercase should let you know that those pagans are just being exempted for a particular period of the agreement.


5: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and ESTABLISH regular prayers and PRACTISE regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

You see, the main aim was to exterminate these people as far as they are PAGANS till they denounce paganism and not till they stop oppressing Muslims as you claim.

I'm not denying any agreement they might have had with the ummah as at then but from what's written in Taubah, they are to be killed till they accept Islam. Allah, a loving God, can't say that to the most admired human on earth by then, Muhammad.

I feel the Jews have finally have a hand in Islam by tempering with the Qur'an like they did the hadith too and probably added that verse about Allah protecting the Qur'an himself to further keep their handiwork unchecked. Islam has been corrupted, I feel bad saying this but that's just the bitter truth. The worst thing is that it seems I'm the only one seeing Islam in this light, I wouldn't mind being the only one making it to jannah though.

Nice article but I will not go as far as disputing the existence of God because it is just too evident to suggest otherwise. But let's leave that for another debate.

Religion and Christianity in particular only flourished till today because they used torture, fear and superstition to deter their members from leaving the fold. In the middle ages, to question any Christian doctrine or priest was to invite either prison, death or exile and so freedom of expression was not permitted. Many who dared to flow against the tide were brutally oppressed or killed.

Now that we are in the information and freedom age, we have tons and tons of material at our immediate disposal to carry out research into previously held truths or beliefs.

Like you I am an avid reader, reviewer and researcher into Christianity and the can I opened from my due diligence on this religion has so many worms that some times I just have to take some time off to bask in multiple phews !!!

For example, when I discovered that a lot of the prophecies in the gospel of Matthew were either wrongly applied or fabricated, that shook me. Then the trinity, hell fire and many other doctrines I found to be false and this triggered a zeal for more study.

My question to all of us and you the OP is, when you find one LIE in a book you begin to wonder how many more lies may lie therein. When you discover that most of the doctrines you once cherished were pagan in origin and mostly myths you ask yourself how much of the bible is truth, myth and fables.

It can get scary for a new believer or younger person especially when their pastors warn them to avoid further research with the consequence of hell or excommunication and other threats to stifle knowledge acquisition and application.

My stance is this, any religion or GOD that discourages reason , logic and investigation into TRUTH is not REAL.

So while we have similar stories , I just want to say that despite the flaws in the bible, my belief in God still stands, but my trust in Christianity and churches in general is weak.

First time I'm meeting a like mind, I believe in God but religion and holy books(generally)? Hell no!

AlBaqir:
# The first injustice you've done against yourself is taken the verse in isolation. That is verse 5, so let me give you the account from verse 4 - 6:


Surah At-Taubah, Verse 4:

Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 5:

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


Surah At-Taubah, Verse 6:

And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know."


So, what can you say now?

# From those 3 verses, it is evident the Prophet of Islam had agreement of peaceful coexistence with the Idolaters who had been excessive and aggressive against him. This is refer to in Islamic history as "treaty of hudaybiyah". Interestingly, the treaty was 95% in the Idolator's favor yet majority of them violated those agreement.

# The Idolators continue their excessiveness and aggressions against the Muslims, their family, interests to the point of killing them. Therefore, the Muslims are directed to stop being passive and pursuit the aggressive idolators. This is the narrative of the injunction in verse 5. Why do you and I accept the Nigerian Army's pursuit of the terrorists BOKO HARAM wherever they may be?!

However, verse 4 gave caution that few of the idolators that continue to respect the treaty should be spare while anyone even from among the aggressors who sought for protection of the Muslim should be protected. What merciful and just injunction can be compare with that?!.

I had to study those verses well, not because I want to disprove your accessions but to understand ME well.

Now if verse 4 had come after verse 5, then what you're saying will be perfectly correct and I'll just accept and appreciate your time but rather its the other way round.

In verse one, Allah announced immunity on both the Muslims and pagans who were on mutual alliance with Muhammad.

In verse 5, no exception was made as to which of the pagans were to be slayed or lay ambush for. It was generic.

What a like mind will understand from that chapter from verse 1 to 5 is that the initial intention of Allah was for Muslims to slay the pagans PREFERABLY after the sacred month. The pagans in generic. No such account of oppressions on Muslims from those verses at least from 1 to 5. Need I say the so called Islamic history was fabricated?

You see, a loving God as Allah shouldn't encourage killing. Dialogue could have been better advised. One of the reasons I don't accept Quranic teachings on our dealings with non Muslims. The same Allah that advised Muhammad in surah Kafiroon that freedom of religion is allowed is now asking Muhammad to kill and lay ambush until someone, a pagan, accepts Islam: why is Islam being forced on pagans this time? Obviously not cos Pagans were oppressing Muslims but because pagans need to be oppressed to accept Islam.

If those verses were revealed cos of oppressions on Muslims and not for forceful conversions then you and I know when Muhammad was supposed to be directed to stop the slaying: at the end of their oppressions as against when they accept Islam.

The boko haram, Isis, al shabab and a host of others see these doctrines like you see them, the only difference is that you're more educated and appreciate life more than they do. I'm a Muslim, I hate being recognized with terrorism and that's why these doctrines are full of flaws from my view.

AlBaqir:
# It is natural to have doubts about things. That is a proof that your God given intellect and freewill is working. However, how much you know? How much are you willing to know? How much are you ready to accept or reject, when you see rational convictions? All these and more are questions you should ask yourself.

# What are your dilemma pertaining to certain verses you claim I did not mention? Kindly bring them forth and let's peruse them altogether.

Thanks.

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Now the above is just one among several others........can you bring forth self-defense idea in that? How does this portray the peaceful nature of Islam?

AlBaqir:
# Islamic doctrines is perfect, never by dogmatism but by intellectual reasoning. So, why would you disagree with it? Am afraid you get to know Islam from a wrong interpretation/understanding.


Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 36:

And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he surely strays off a manifest straying.




# IT IS EVIL TO KILL A SOUL WITHOUT JUSTIFICATION

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 32 - 33:

"For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.


The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



# BEFRIENDING PEOPLE OF THE BOOK (JEWS AND CHRISTIAN)

As far as Islamic injunctions are concern, only the evil ones you do not have business with.

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 82:

Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.


# Islam even make the following injunctions:

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 5:

This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book (Jews and Christians) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."


Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 2:

O ye who believe..., help one another in goodness and piety, and do not help one another in sin and aggression; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

# In Islam, the injunction is to war (in defence) against those who wage war on you. Qur'an says:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 190:

"And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits."




Surah An-Nisa, Verse 3:

"And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course."

# First, there are conditions for polygamous marriage

# Second, Islam legislated polygamous marriage only to solve certain sociocultural problems. However, the fact that there are problems associated with polygamous marriage does not mean the injunction is wrong rather it is the "we" who have failed to practice it in accordance with the instruction of God.




# Disagreeing with a part of Qur'an is disagreeing with the entire Qur'an, and that is disbelief in God and His Prophet.

# Like I said earlier, you get to know Islam from very very wrong sources, weird interpretations and understanding.

Well said.

I don't think the Qur'an was a wrong source of knowing Islam. I'm sure those verses ain't the only verses in the Qur'an talking about those topics except if you want to say its wrong to study each topic extensively from the holy Qur'an.

I still have issues with the verses you didn't talk about regarding those topics........maybe my problems are really of the worst type.

iamgenius:
Even if we tell you, it will be of no benefit to you. Your problems are of the worst type.

Still yet to know how this question made my problem the worst type.

Help a brother.

Pls as a Muslim, is it right to be a Muslim and disagree with some of the Islamic doctrines? The inhumane aspect of the doctrine like the legality in killing non Muslims or not being friend with them, the cutting of hand, the polygamous marriage and a host of others.

Is it possible to disagree with some part of the Qur'an and still be a Muslim? I have a feeling some of those inhumane write-ups ain't from Allah even if Allah made it known that its his responsibility to protect the Qur'an.

0temSapien:
The DOCTUFOS of TRUTH of course.

Hmm, is that one a doctrine from another religion again? If yes, what's the name of the religion so I'll check it up.

solite3:
John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Thanks.

It seems the gospel of Matthew and that of John are not harmonised in this sense. Unlike John, Matthew didn't portray Jesus as someone who wants to die..........I don't know where the contradiction is coming from though.

0temSapien:
John said this and you just gullibly accept it as the truth? Hmm, u have a longer way to go.
God Almighty who created Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, Atum, Moloch, Olorun etc did not send any child to the world to die for the world; what God Almighty did was to send his children such as Allah, Yahweh, Odin, Atum, Olorun, Eshu, Moloch etc into the universe to make findings so that their knowledge could increase, but some of them set up religion rather than making findings.
John is just one of those who were used by some gods to write lies which you believe in. Once again, God Almighty didn't send his children(Atum, Yahweh, Moloch, Allah, etc) into the earth to die, but he sent them into the universe to make findings, which some of them are still making till today.


Read also Eartum 3:28

Pls where are you quoting from?