₦airaland Forum

KHAMILEON:
nferyn, really great pics,

What part of Belgium do you leave??, Cause I come to Antwerp a lot! (Ask your wife if she has seen the Nigerian movie called "UNDER PRESSURE & DAPO JUNIOR" made in Holland, If yes, then maybe i might have come across you people before, Anyway greetings to your family

thx,

I'm living close to Brussels. I will ask here if she's seen the movie, I certainly won't have as I cannot watch a nigerian movie for longer than 10 minutes before becoming completely crazy

I will pass on the compliments

eveseh:
indeed it is,yes

No, it isn't

eveseh:
welcome

You're unstoppable, aren't you?
Welcoming a member who hasn't been active for a very long time, anything to increase your post count You better slow down and post something substantial

hi simmy,

I'd be delighted if you could publish your findings in a peer reviewed journal. You would definitely earn yourself a nobel prize and put you as a biologist in the league of Einstein as a physicist, as it would put the whole scientific community on it's head and shatter our current understanding of nature.

If you could find the time to define information, macroevolution [/i]and [i]microevolution, as well as speciation (if that would be required to clarify macroevolution), this would bring clarity to the debate and help it forward.

@ dakmanzero
Even if would only succeed in bringing one person to think about or reconsider his position, it would be worth the effort.

@ simmy,

If you wouldn't call speciation (events leading to reproductively isolated gene pools) macroevolution, what operational definition then would you propose for macroevolution and how would you make it operational?

As to gaining information, please define information first, this way we will now what you're talking about.

simmy:
e.g a rodent modifying its limbs to a wing is macroevolution; this same rodent shortening it's limbs is still microevolution.

Why? Your examples lack context and cannot be operationalised. Could you give an operational definition of both micro-evolution and macro-evolution? The moment there is no gene flow between two gene pools anymore, you have speciation. From that moment onward, the two pools can be subject to different selective pressures and thus lead to significant divergence in the traits of the two different species.

simmy:
ALL observed 'so-called' speciation involve a loss of information,

Not true, e.g. :

"Adaptive evolution of a DUPLICATED pancreatic ribonuclease gene in a leaf-eating monkey", J Zhang, Y-P Zhang, HF Rosenberg, Nature (Genetics) 30:April 2002, pg 411-415 - ONLY colombine monkeys have RNAse1B and RNAse1; all other primates have ONLY RNAse1.

"Natural selection and the ORIGIN of jingwei, a chimeric processed functional gene in Drosophila", M Long, CH Ling, Science 260: 2 April 1993, pg 91-95; this gene exists ONLY in sister species D. yakuba and D. teisseri (formed from parts of other genes).

"Origin of sphinx, a young chimeric RNA gene in Drosophila melanogaster", W Wang, FG Brunet, E Nevo, M Long, PNAS 99(7) pg 4448-4453; gene exists ONLY in D melanogaster - all other species have the parts, but NOT the gene.

Obviously, that depends on your definition of information, but an increase in the coding genes within the genome would count as an increase in information, wouldn't it?

simmy:
What do u know about my faith by the way?

If one reads your posts, it's quite obvious what your religious inclinations are.

simmy:
Quote 5
Yhear sure, if u can provide it, whic h i doubt

Here you are:

nferyn:
observed instances of speciation:
http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

I really wonder why you continue to say that there are no observed instances of speciation while I already gave you the references? Could it be that you rather discard that information as it contradicts your specific faith?

And if you want a few thousand references on addition of information in the genome, just a search the PubMed database using gene duplication evolution as search string

Simmy, I'll leave it to KAG to debate you further, as she has adequately answered your objections. Just a few links to satisfy your curiosity:
observed instances of speciation:
http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

transitional fossils
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

Actually, I invite you to read the talkorigins archive, it contains a wealth of information and can probably answer most of the questions you have about evolution.

As a sidenote, please do provide an operational definition of information as it relates to evolution, this way your concern that no new information can be added to DNA can be properly addressed

xkape:
Show me an example of a truely closed natural system, or a truely ideal Gas. Science is based on sensible approximations. this is the only way we can reach any meaning ful conclusions. even KAG agrees with my supposition on this issue

Irrelevant. The earth's ecosystem and all of it's subsystems get a constant influx of thermal energy from the sun, which make it anything but an approximation of a closed system. The second law of thermodynamics does not offer any explanation as it does not apply.

[quote author=larger_20 link=topic=3885.msg335192#msg335192 date=1146720564]let me give u some political answer,
From the original definition of conservative, a person who tends to stick to the original and never change. It makes sense that if a person sticks to the bible without concidering the developments in the current trends or society, such person can be called a conservative . A conservative is not only a political word. We see it in philosophy and psychology and even in everyday life.[/quote]You were using conservative and liberal as the two options, which is a very American way of looking at things. No need to lecture on the meaning of the word conservative, I am aware of it's origin.

[quote author=larger_20 link=topic=3885.msg335192#msg335192 date=1146720564]Politics has a lot to do with religion, the people that killed Jesus were politicians, infact jesus was killed due to politics because he cliamed to be the king of the jews. Its like impeaching a president in the president generation, do u think they will be looking at u do your thing?[/quote]Yes, and how does that relate to the original question?

[quote author=larger_20 link=topic=3885.msg335192#msg335192 date=1146720564]the original idea of papacy was religion but due to the development in this current generation, papacy is gradually turning to politics. Hence Pope John paul the second traveled around the world to expand souls for christ. During the time of paul, there is nothing like aeroplane and saul did not get to see what john paul saw before he died. What John paul saw contributed to the shift from religion to politics. For example the adolph hitler rose to take the world, the hirroshima bomb, all of these devlish acts both religion and politics teamed together to prevent it. The politics comming with power, religion comming with virtures and reasoning,[/quote]The papacy (or in extension the Roman Catholic Church) was far more political in the past than it is now. You might want to read a little about the Borgia family and papal armies.

[quote author=larger_20 link=topic=3885.msg335192#msg335192 date=1146720564]Regarding your third question, Soul is your inner consceince. When you're sleeping, soul is alive, when your dead, soul is alive. Soul is the amargedeon b/w your fresh and your spirit. They are always fighting, You are the "hot damsel" b/w your soul and your fresh. Soul is wife of concience and it is hard to talk about one without the other,[/quote]You're giving a description of something that is not detectable and still doesn't make much sense. What are the boundaries of the soul and how does it relate to consciousness?

[quote author=larger_20 link=topic=3885.msg335192#msg335192 date=1146720564]Both christians and non christians have souls and that is why when u sin or do bad thing, you will reflect on it.[/quote]Don't understand.

[quote author=larger_20 link=topic=3885.msg335192#msg335192 date=1146720564]People take marrijuana and other hard drugs before they do bad things.[/quote]Marihuana is not a hard drug. It doesn't make one forget, alcohol is far more efficient in that matter

[quote author=larger_20 link=topic=3885.msg335192#msg335192 date=1146720564]this is to prevent the soul from remembering their actions becasue honestly as a man, u can deny u don't have it, u don't need to be a christian to have it but these are some of the virtures of christianity that makes us believe that indeed there is good,[/quote]Moral behaviour is very beneficial for cooperative species like ourself. Our survival depends on it.

chinani:

Is that relevant?

Yes it is. Being a black female can feel like being a unicorn. That's the reality I've had to live w/ t/o some of my life. Personally, I've always been open to interracial relations but I have some friends who only considered it b/c black women out number black men in college by nearly 7 to 1. It's the reality of the situation.

Just a quick question in between: are you perceived as black or as African in first contacts? This could have a significant impact on your perception of the situation as well. I guess the reality of the African Americans reflects on you as well. It would be interesting to see what the difference is between the self-perception of Africans in the US versus Europe.

chinani:
Abusive? Hmm. . .That's not what I meant. Care to elaborate? I meant how people act towards others. As in how they perpetuate (racist) stereotypes in general not just to their partner. For instance, I was an RA for 3 years in college and one of my residents came to me very agitated. It seems her roomie's boyfriend had said "See that's what I like about you. You're Latino. I can't date Black women. They're too bitchy." When I asked the roomie w/ the boyfriend if her boyfriend had said this while her black roomie was in the room she said "Yes" cool as a cucumber and was like "Lots of Black grrls are bitchy. My roomie's just the exception." (Nevermind that I'm "Black" too.) This is what I meant. And it's rampant. Just check out some of the threads on Nairaland & you'll see. "How are Black women in Bed? Why?" "Why do Black women date such-and-such? Why?" All the negativity. It's enough to make me take a Paxil. _{But I don't.}

Unfortunately, stereotyping is part and parcel of the human experience. It is an evolutionary defense mechanism that's so hard wired in our brains that we will probably never get rid of it. One way to overcome this is awareness and exposure to the others in non-stereotypical situations.
It goes both ways though. The idiocy I've seen in the portrayal of Europe and Europeans by Nigerians, but also by African Americans, is mind boggling. What I find very interesting is the way African Americans sometimes stereotype Europeans and transpose white American cultural patterns to Europeans as if they are the same. From my limited exposure, I find African American culture, even though different from white American culture, distinctly American and I personally relate far more to African behavioral patterns than to American ones, but here the stereotyping probably sets in, no harm intended

chinani:
You should be right Nferyn. I wish you were, but alas that is not the reality. The reality is that black people in the West are viewed as "Blacks" not as individuals. (I can't even get people to call me African.)

I would think that the problem lies in the character of the partner here, but I guess that my personal experience and attitude is quite extra-ordinary. What I see as the main problem is that people have insufficient awareness of their own stereotypical behaviour. Ethnocentric attitudes and stereotyping are unavoidable, being aware of that and actively trying to correct yourself is what should be done. The worst racists are the ones loudly proclaiming that they cannot possibly be racist while their whole worldview is based one layer on top of layer of stereotypes.

chinani:
The "reaction" to be viewed as part of a group is developing a "dual consciousness" as referred to and defined by W.E.B DuBois. Part of the dual consciousness is examining and seeing yourself as part as the whole (the Diaspora in manner of speaking). Should this point be primary? No. But I wouldn't believe a black person who claimed that they never examined how others would view their interracial relationship. Have you seen Jungle Fever? I'm not endorsing that movie, but the phases the black lead character goes through are real. Now, as for a white person I cannot say. White people are given more individuality & freedom in the West than Black people. (For instance, when a white man does something, good or bad, no one comments on his whiteness.)

I agree, but that's not only only a racial issue. All minority (sub)cultures are subject to this. The thing is that skin colour is an extremely convenient marker in all types of pattern recognition and classification (which is what we do all day long). I know when I was at uni and I had long hair, I was constantly stopped by the police for identity controls. That stopped the moment I cut of my long hair.

chinani:
Also, my fav professors always says, "The personal is political".

That's very American of you

chinani:
Why must the person be a woman?

Because you were talking about women

chinani:
But really, it is women who are guilty of this. When I wrote this I was thinking of how people say "Once you go black, you never go back". I think sayings and tendencies like this are fueled by a need to "succeed" at a (difficult) relationship w/ another person. It's also an illusion to sex as though that's all a relationship is.

I don't see where that train of thought is leading you.

chinani:
Good to know. It's a nice thought. Heck, if I'm fixated on it, my kiddies will surely do it right? But really, I think this is my inner hypocrite & I wish to change. I just hate the thought of biting my tongue around in-laws. Surprise! I'm opinoinated!
Yes! You can try.

My inner hypocrite , I should remember that one
Why would you ever have to bite your tongue? It all depends on the packaging of the ideas. Allow me to interject a stereotype of my own - maybe Nigerians have a too direct way of trying to get a point accross , you people can be so harsh at times

chinani:
@Nferyn
You took issue w/ some of my replies but I stand by most of them. I think they reflect reality.

as you perceive it, why don't you take the blue pill? (just kidding)
By the way, I didn't take issue with them, I only thought some more context was appropriate and as I've been in an interracial relationship for more than 10 years now, I think I can provide some of that context.

chinani:
@Everyone
HAHA! Nferyn picked my post to dissect. Yes, I know you are dying of jealousy. Eat your heart out Brooke Sheilds! j/k

Chinani, your posts have always struck me as insightful and interesting to read. Quite different from the 15 word contributions one usually reads. I would be honoured to pick more of your posts apart, but most of the times there's little to pick apart (as in, I agree with them)

chinani:
It's good & bad. But all relationships are good & bad (requiring compromise) so that needn't scare anyone.

Why good?
a)[/b]It's always good to be true to yourself which incl. embracing who you're attracted to spiritually, physically, and emotionally.

That should be the foremost thing on your mind

chinani:
[b]b)[/b]You have a larger dating pool (depending on location of course).

Is that relevant?

chinani:
[b]c)[/b]It has the possibility to broaden your horizons.

Also important. Depends on your personality though. If you're attracted to someone of a different race (I really hate that word), you probably already feel that need inside you.

chinani:
[b]
Why bad?
[b]a)[/b]It can lead to the dilution of culture on a personal & societal level.

Culture is neither static nor absolute. Depending on how deep you feel about your culture it could also have a positive effect on your awareness and lead to a deeper appreciation

chinani:
[b]b)[/b]It can lead to compromising yourself (esp. if you're a woman b/c women do this all the time) sha!

If that's your character, you will do the same thing in a same-race-relationship

chinani:
[b]c)[/b]Some people use their interracial relationship to perpetuate racist views.

That's one more type of abusive relationships. Not worth staying in, but the has very little to do with the interracial part if you're looking for a serious relationship

chinani:
[b]d)[/b]Interracial relations rarely (never) negate or erase racist views as advertised.

Are you entering a relationship to have a positive social impact or because you love your partner? This should be secundary.

chinani:
[b]e)[/b]When they do not work out, women are more likely to keep dating interracially b/c they are too embarrassed to "go back".

If that's the case, the woman's got other issues and is mentally not stable enough for a serious relationship.

chinani:
[b]f)[/b]Haters hate on you.

They always will, regardless of what you do.

chinani:
That's my abridged list. Cliffnotes of my personal thoughts: I would be in an interracial relationship but I'd be nervous about my (future) kids being in an interracial marriage. Hmmm. . .

No need to, as long as you bring them up with a healthy dose of self worth, their personality can only be the richer.

chinani:
But most of all, it's important essential to be true & honest to yourself.

True, but do you [i]really [/i]know yourself?

[quote author=hot-angel link=topic=11517.msg335043#msg335043 date=1146695347]Ohh awesome. Mrs. feryn, How do u pronounce that? I actually still can't pronounce your screen-name. I call it In-fer-yin.[/quote]Furin

[quote author=hot-angel link=topic=11517.msg335029#msg335029 date=1146694898]Okay now people, I doubt if nferyn's name is his "real last name". So don't say "mrs. Nferyn". It's just like calling "Mr hot-angel", *laughs head to the floor*. That's funny please laugh with me?> [/quote]Just remove the first letter.

chinani:
@Nferyn
[SNIP]Then at 18months he's so cute. But he looks darker than he is now which is funny and odd. Not a bad thing o!

Probably the exposure in the pictures. He's getting darker as he ages. Aicha as well. She was very pink when she was just born and now she's starting to get a nice tan.

[quote author=larger_20 link=topic=3885.msg334935#msg334935 date=1146692107]I am a political person so don't take it personal,[/quote]No probs, I honestly don't understand why you brought politics into this thread.

I'm hearing you, here's a picture of my beautiful wife on our marriage. Quite obvious I'm not the only one supplying the genes

[quote author=hot-angel link=topic=11517.msg334921#msg334921 date=1146691561]Tom doesnt look like himself when he was a baby. He loks cute at 1.5 though. [/quote]Tom was born naturally (all 9 hours of labour), at 5 days, they still look a little shaken

Tom is happy with his sister (2 months)

Aicha @ 5 hrs (more info on why she was so fragile and tiny)

Tom @ 1.5 y

Tom @ 4 days

[quote author=larger_20 link=topic=3885.msg334833#msg334833 date=1146687936]equal If u answered No, U r a conservative[/quote]What does the question have to do with a political position?

[quote author=larger_20 link=topic=3885.msg334833#msg334833 date=1146687936]If you answereed Yes, you are a liberal like myself (that is not a permission to sign but reasoning that is worth giving some taught)[/quote]Again, what does a political position to do with a religious question like that? What about a atheist humanistic moderately left wing social democrat like myself?

[quote author=larger_20 link=topic=3885.msg334833#msg334833 date=1146687936]If you are not a christian or religious, then you're probably one of thoese hanging in the air, and enjoying life as it comes and goes. However think about this, what happens to your soul when u die?[/quote]Soul, what's that? I don't understand the meaning of that word.

KAG:
I diasgree, the law is aplicable to the Earth's ecosystem, and to some extent can be applied to the genome, but it doesn't actually support the creationists argument.

It doesn't. The Earth's ecosystem is not a thermally isolated system. Neither on the input, nor on the output side.

KAG:
One interesting thing about thermodynamics and creationists, is that many creationists don't realise some of their arguments rule out possibility of reproduction, germination etc, ever happening. That in itself should give an indication that the argument has gone awry.

Fully agree. These processes do happen because the earth is not a thermally isolated system.

KAG:
Also, somebody once raised what I thought was a valid point a long while back. His point was something along the lines of, "if we observe something that contradicts the second law of thermodynamics - and indeed any law - it stands to reason that like the Newtonian gravity law, the law doesn't apply to that circumstance."

Yes, but we have not observed a phenomenon yet that contradicts the second law of thermodynamics. And even if that were the case, the first thing to do would be to check the experimental setup again and see if all variables are accounted for.

Does the US have social programs? It thought only corporate welfare was prevalent over there
Anyway, those band-aids for the collective consciousness of the US citizens can hardly be called social programs, they're glorified charity under government control with very little structural effect.

xkape,

I really wonder why you keep coming up with the second law of thermodynamics. That law does not apply to the earth's ecosystem, as it is not a closed system and even less to our genetic material, as it is a subsystem of subsystems of subsystems of , on our planet all of which are anything but closed.

WesleyanA:
I agree with you even though I think Nferyn has the prettiest eyes.

Well thanks, but that's more of a camera effect. they're not so deep blue IRL

chinani:
LOL! But really, Tom does kind of look like Nferyn's profile pic.

Good to reassure me

chinani:
Just a smaller nose & higher forehead. Though I think Tom might be the more handsome of the two. Sorry Nferyn! & no offense intended.

He definitely is more handsome, although I don't see why you mention a higher forehead. maybe because Tom's hair is so short. I'm the one with the big forehead (or so I've been told), Tom's got big eyelashes.

chinani:
You did supply the genes. You can remind him of that later.

I was partner in a cooperative effort

I'll try to scan a few more pictures of Tom when he was small (prior to the digital camera age)