Soldiers must kill in the name of their Country or Cause. I am lead to believe that Christians are forbidden from killing in the name Jesus/God. So how does this work? (if at all)

Self defense is not murder. When soldiers go to war presumably they are fighting to defend a country, to fight off those who are out there to destroy it.

Yes, a Christian can be a soldier and a man of integrity.

vexxy:

Self defense is not murder. When soldiers go to war presumably they are fighting to defend a country, to fight off those who are out there to destroy it.

Yes, a Christian can be a soldier and a man of integrity.

I didn't say Murder i said Kill. As far as i am aware there is no differentiation between them in the eyes of Jesus/god. I think the commandment goes something like "DO NOT KILL" full stop.
Are you saying the killing to defend boarders is acceptable with Jesus/god.
Are you saying "Kill or be Killed" is a motto Jesus (the role model of man) may have adopted?

Yes, I know you said kill but the commandment: thou shalt not kill this kill in Hebrew actually means to murder so it's "thou shalt not murder" which is why I said murder.

Romans 13:1-5 (RSV):
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

From these verses we see that governments can elect to bear the sword (go to war) to deal with evil men. Although the act of war is a harsh form of punishment upon evil invaders, the alternative is far worse -- the destruction of innocent people by wicked aggressors.

that is so wrong. The bible tells us to be subject to authorities but to keep it in mind that God is a higher authority. Both Paul and Jesus counselled christians to pay taxes.
But if we are to follow your line of reasoning, we are to obey authorities that forbid us from worshipping Christ. Christians are only required to obey governments as far as they don't prevent the true worship of Christ. Are you telling me that the same person that told us to turn a cheek when slapped would condone self-defence. Let's not confuse 'common-sense" with religion.

Killing in self defence is still murder. If it wasn't, the christians killed for amusement by the romans would not have tried to convert theit killers, they would have done what the Jews did and fought back. end result: annihilation.

Do not kill means Do not kill. let's not dilute the bible's message to serve our own vices.

...Romans 13:1-5?
Sorry, but that is where we must agree to disagree vexxy. Because i look at that text an see opportunity for self-appointed rulers to suggest not only that GOD put them in charge, but that any action they take is automatically sanctioned by god and thus unquestionable.

If you really believe that text, then you must believe that EVERY action taken by EVERY world leader, is justified merely because you believe they wouldn't be in power if god didn't want them to be.

Makes no sense to me at all... but then i guess one needs "faith" to really understand it right?

thank you kodewrita! say it like it is.

Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Murder goes against the Bible because it is unlawful (we are asked to follow the law).

Self Defense: Self-defense usually refers to the use of violence to protect oneself and is a possible justification for this otherwise illegal act.

Self defense is within the law of the land, thereby not going agaist the bible.

Also: God instituted civil authorities to maintain order in the earth. God uses them to restrain evil and they should be obeyed for this purpose.

His will is to bless the earth and all those who obey and live in harmony; but for those who disobey, He had to set up separate rules so that the ones who are evil do not destroy the good.  War is like that, as God uses civil authorities to maintain order in the earth.  In the New Testament we see that even Jesus surrendered to the governing authorities because He was submitted to God.  

No soldier who is a Christian desires to kill another; however, the Lord Himself, did not chastise a Centurion soldier in the Bible in the matter of his occupation.  On the contrary, the Lord commended this man for his understanding of authority and his great faith when he called upon the Lord to heal his servant. Our military men need our prayers and the protection of the Lord as they go to battle.   This should be the work of the church -- prayer for our men's protection and prayer for our president and heads of state.  Our critical words will not change things, but prayer will. We must pray that the war would end quickly so we can return to peace, and especially prayer for our enemies, that they might be saved. We can pray that good will come out of what Satan means for evil.

Matthew 8:5-10:
5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

But this topic has been forever a thorn in the sides of Christians.

But to your question: can a man be a soldier and a Christian I'd have to say yes. I say this because God has people every where. I do not think that becoming a Christian means that you must debunk being a soldier and vice versa.

He can use any one at any time no matter their walk in life.

It a thorn in the side of Christians because it is not right. it does not make sense. it does not add up like the truth.
so what happens is denial kicks in... the issue is glossed over with a tissue of lies.
for instance what are your sources when you said

vexxy:


Also: God instituted civil authorities to maintain order in the earth. God uses them to restrain evil and they should be obeyed for this purpose.
Ajsalako: Was it Gods idea to put the the Romans that killed Jesus in power?

His will is to bless the earth and all those who obey and live in harmony; but for those who disobey, He had to set up separate rules so that the ones who are evil do not destroy the good.  War is like that, as God uses civil authorities to maintain order in the earth Ajsalako: That's your opinion.

these things are not from the bible are they?

vexxy:

But to your question: can a man be a soldier and a Christian I'd have to say yes. I say this because God has people every where. I do not think that becoming a Christian means that you must debunk being a soldier and vice versa.

He can use any one at any time no matter their walk in life.

practising opposing ideologies is called Hypocrisy, i think "Christians soldiers" have to make a choice.

Read your bible. There is a part of the Gospels where Jesus condemned wars as being motivated by greed. How do you connect that with praying for soldiers? Let me give you an example, during the Thirty years war in europe, chaplains on both sides proclaimed that they were supported by God. Cromwell who was the only person to rule Britain by coup d'etat believed heaven supported his cause and massacred the people who supported the rightful King James. If Both sides pray, who does God support?

As christians, we believe all nations are under God, so fighting for a flag is both unreasonable and unbiblical. The bible tells us that with the coming of christ all classifications are dead. there are no Jews Or Gentiles but believers in God and salvation through Christ.

Jesus commended the centurion for his faith and not because of his job. He was surprised a non-Jew could show such faith. When he prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem, he asked all christians to head for the hills and not try to remain in the city because "no two stones will be left standing on each other ".

He did not tell them to stay and fight for their lives. Jesus rebuked Peter for cutting the ear of his captors saying "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword". I don't think he could have been more candid about it.

Can you remain a prostitute and still be a christian? can you set out to become both a drug dealer and a christian? God can use anybody(moses was a stutterer, mary magdalene was a prostitute, jonah a coward) but that is no excuse for you to continue in that line of work. there are other things you could do. Being a christian and a soldier are two non-intersecting circles. You don't advertise sexy lingerie and preach chastity or christianity at the same time.

Churches that tell you to go to war are motivated by political and patriotic tendencies not religious tendencies. I will not fight for any country Nigeria included.

break it down! Kodewrita
more power to you bro!

I think the simple answer is "no":
Matthew 5.38-41: You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

Self-defense is synonymous with "resisting one who is evil", right? The first century Christians were persecuted unjustly, but they choose to flee instead of fight, right? A Christian who dies goes to heaven where there is no more pain, right? So why disobey Jesus to defend yourself and your country? Are you suggesting that his commandments are impractical?

Previous discussion: Fighting For Your Country. Is It Biblical?

Can we discuss this issue using the concepts of the crusades (1095-1291)

If a soldier is christain and he needs to do his duty ( which may include killing ) then so be it. One of the best and most pronouned "killers" in the bibile was King David. That did not stop God from loving him dearly and rewarding him with riches and glory and long life and a place in heaven..... So wetin una dey yarn now ??

For those that are confused.  The original intent is murder and not kill.  The equivalent interpretation in English is 'thou shall not commit murder' and not 'thou shall not kill'.  New Bible translations will show you this difference. They're of different terms and usage in the original language. If you look at the old testament, there're several times when God ordered the children of Israel to kill as a national campaign or otherwise and God Himself did kill.  For example, you could say that the government killed so and so and not the government commit murder.  
Like a well respected Preacher said in Naija during the numerous riots and bloodshed against the Xtians in the north, he said, "you don't expect me to kneel down and start praying if some fanatic were to come after my family to murder us".

*sigh* That was in the Old Testament. Remember, in the old testament adulterers were stoned, intercropping was unholy and ethnic cleansing was commanded. But the New Testament brought new ideas to replace Old Testament ideas. Ideas like turning the other cheek.

See www.google.com/search?w=sermon+on+the+mount

K2, what do you think the first century Christians did when they were attacked by Jewish authorities? They 'fled'; they didn't fight. That is what those who say they are Christians in the north should be doing - persecution of Christians did not originate in Nigeria. If you are attacked in one town, flee to another town and take the gospel with you - I think I remember a verse where Jesus said just that!

You're absolutley correct Seun.

But then, is it all soldiers that actually go to war?

No, all of us are always at war.  Spiritual warfare.

I'm not talking abt that, duh!

As far as I am concerned, killing, murder, ..... (whatever grammar u use for it) is a sin! period!

My Bible tells me, "Love your neighbour as yourself" So why then will I kill a fellow human?

Duh? Ok.

It is what we're talking about because it is the evil in the world that makes us act the way we do, hence the spiritual warfare comment. If we were not in spiritual warfare, if we did not have to battle evil every day because Satan is roaming around seeking whom he may devour then we will not go to war, there would be no killing, no cheating, no stealing. Everyone will be peace loving people, but that's not the case, is it?

Let's talk about this from a human perspective: It is your natual instinct to protect yourself. You mean to tell me that if a man breaks into your house and starts to fight you with intent to kill you, would you will smile and look at him with love?

Answer to the question posed at the beginning <snip>: [B]YES[/B]!

@vexxy: Definitely not! But I wouldnt kill him either though

You mean to tell me that if a man breaks into your house and starts to fight you with intent to kill you, would you will smile and look at him with love?

You can run away, until you feel "your time" has come. That is what Jesus, the Apostles, and first century Christians usually did.

I would not do that, however (I do not claim to be a practicing Christian ).

Goodguy: I understand that, but what if the final effect is death to the intruder?  Would that not make you a Christian?

In a world filled with evil people, sometimes a war is necessary to prevent even greater evil.  If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions of Jews would have been killed? If the Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African Americans have had to suffer as slaves? We must all remember to base our beliefs of the Bible, not on our emotions (2Timothy 3:16-17).

Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.  In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to the conflict, and praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians 4:6-7).

@ Seun: Being a Christian does not mean that you are super-human. The things that effect a non-Christian are the same things that effect Christians.

Were the Christians that were unjustly killed in the first century superhuman? Were the disciples superhuman? Why then did they not 'fight for their rights' instead of running away or alowing themselves to be killed?

The disciples did fight for thier rights. In Luke Jesus tells them to pick up a sword because he knew the soldiers would be coming for him and in turn the disciples would be threatened.

And please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that war is a great thing, because it isn't, it's terrible. War is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18).

In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to: “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). See also Deuteronomy 20:16-17, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Exodus 17:16 proclaims, “He said, "For hands were lifted up to the throne of the LORD. The LORD will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation." Also, 1 Samuel 15:18, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.”

So, obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

You cannot use the Old Testament to support war. That's like making a mockery of the entire concept of Christianity. Or has Christianity become completely different since when I left it?

That's like saying you can't use the OT to support the coming of Christ where in actuality His birth and life is described in the OT. Should we discard it? No.

James 1:17
17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

If God doesn't change and we find his personality all through the Bible, why discard any of it?

Christianity can be used to justify anything. jesus said love thy neighbour and the old testament says an eye for an eye. the bible has it both ways.
Christianity (which by the way is never mentioned in the bible) is without base. there is no core unshakable teaching. everything is up for discussion. there are no solid answers in that book.
being a christian is like having no religion, because anything goes (arguably).

In war, if soldiers die and get killed. If killing is done in an act of war, there is nothing unbiblical about that. Id like to see someone quote for me from the bible where God had said "lay down you weapon and allow yourself to be killed when attacked". Many people are just interpreting the 10 commandments literarily. The 10 commandments is for individuals and not a nation, it does not say Nations should not go to war, or if there is war, not to kill.

For those of you saying its sin for a soldier to kill at war, put yourself to test, carry a gun at war front and refuse to shoot, push out your chest and get all the bullets.

Any killing not done as act of war is definitely a sin, whether done by individual or nation. Same goes for War crimes where people are killed against the norms of war. The Geneva convention clearly defines killing in act of war.

So, A soldier can be a man of Integrity, A Man of God, a Very good christian and still kill at war, and go to heaven.