This is a quote from KAG way back in 2006 -

I don't know if it's down to atheism, but I'm a far more content person, more charitable. I've faced several fears and phobias I had, become, what I would like to think, a more rounded person.

It's not all beds and roses though, as I still  battle with things like depression, but despite problems, there's an inner core of happiness within me, happiness that can never be touched nor harmed, happiness that I can only describe as "beautiful joy". there's also a feeling of being, and appreciation for a shortish life

In this rather elegant passage, the gentleman who espouses an atheistic world-view expresses what appears to me to be some appreciation for the existence of his inner spiritual life. He talks about an "inner core of happiness," he states that this is "within him" and goes so far as to declare that his happiness being within him is such that can "never be touched". To emphasize the spirituality of this person, he goes so far as to describe his unchangeable inner happiness as "beautiful joy" and the clincher: he calls it all a "feeling of being."

This is frankly beautiful. I do not know if KAG actually expressly acknowledges the existence of the spiritual, but his verse above was deeply spiritual, up to the point of being poetic.

My question is this - In addition to rejecting the existence of God, do atheists on this forum also reject the existence of all spirituality? In other words –God does not exist, if you like, but does that necessarily mean that you, the individual, are physical only, and not spiritual inside? If you cannot sense God, surely you can sense your own spirituality resident “within” you?

I ask this because in my exchanges with most of the atheists on this forum, I find that their denial of the existence of God also includes a denial of the existence of all non-physical things, including the spirit.

Let’s hear you guys: Does the non-existence of God mean for you that individually you each consist of matter alone, or do you accept that there is a spiritual part to you?

I think KAG is a she. . .and she has been o exile for quite a while.

My respected friend Deep Sight,

i know that the atheist state of mind remains a mystery to you and you have opened numerous threads trying to decipher the mind of the atheist. Please permit me to use the Christian cliche; "you can only experience the joy of atheism if you are in it"

Some of the joys include;

The removal of guilt from from your heart and mind, by this i mean the imposition of guilt by other religions on your being even if you have done nothing wrong can be sometimes disorienting. When you throw away that pre-programmed guilt, you feel at peace.

The joy of taking responsibility for our individual actions and decisions. You are more careful with your decisions because you have no body to put blames on - devils or gods, so you take responsibility for your actions - good or bad.

The joy of appreciating the short life we have on this planet and so living it as best as we can, we do not hope of a promise of a better or worse life than this.

The joy of appreciating the universe and everything that is within, the joys of not placing our individual self above other persons or races, or even animals and plants, and seeing ourselves as part of a whole.

The joy of not having any fear of Gods, Devils, mammy water, demons, babalawos, etc ( i still fear snakes though).

There are many others, but these are a few.

now to your main question;

No the atheist mind does not allow for the spiritual but it allows for the unknown. because the spiritual defies definition. Were know of matter and are aware of energies ( some known, some unknown), but the spiritual as currently defined makes no sense.

I know that the possible number of connections by the billions of neurons in a human brain runs into billions of trillions and each compete connection represent one state of mind. This means that the possible state of mind of an average human is infinite and during our lifetimes and we are only able to experience a few of these states. So i am sure some people are able to experience a state of mind that i have never or will never experience. Maybe that is what you call spiritual. But i believe every possible human experience emanates from the brain.

wirinet:

My respected friend Deep Sight,

i know that the atheist state of mind remains a mystery to you and you have opened numerous threads trying to decipher the mind of the atheist. Please permit me to use the Christian cliche; "you can only experience the joy of atheism if you are in it"

Some of the joys include;

The removal of guilt from from your heart and mind, by this i mean the imposition of guilt by other religions on your being even if you have done nothing wrong can be sometimes disorienting. When you throw away that pre-programmed guilt, you feel at peace.

The joy of taking responsibility for our individual actions and decisions. You are more careful with your decisions because you have no body to put blames on - devils or gods, so you take responsibility for your actions - good or bad.

The joy of appreciating the short life we have on this planet and so living it as best as we can, we do not hope of a promise of a better or worse life than this.

The joy of appreciating the universe and everything that is within, the joys of not placing our individual self above other persons or races, or even animals and plants, and seeing ourselves as part of a whole.

The joy of not having any fear of Gods, Devils, mammy water, demons, babalawos, etc ( i still fear snakes though).

There are many others, but these are a few.

now to your main question;

No the atheist mind does not allow for the spiritual but it allows for the unknown. because the spiritual defies definition. Were know of matter and are aware of energies ( some known, some unknown), but the spiritual as currently defined makes no sense.

I know that the possible number of connections by the billions of neurons in a human brain runs into billions of trillions and each compete connection represent one state of mind. This means that the possible state of mind of an average human is infinite and during our lifetimes and we are only able to experience a few of these states. So i am sure some people are able to experience a state of mind that i have never or will never experience. Maybe that is what you call spiritual. But i believe every possible human experience emanates from the brain.

nice explanation

wirinet:

I know that the possible number of connections by the billions of neurons in a human brain runs into billions of trillions and each compete connection represent one state of mind. This means that the possible state of mind of an average human is infinite and during our lifetimes and we are only able to experience a few of these states. So i am sure some people are able to experience a state of mind that i have never or will never experience. Maybe that is what you call spiritual. But i believe every possible human experience emanates from the brain.

Now this has always intrigued me: when people say – it’s all about the brain.

I ask you: What is the Brain’s motivation in doing these things? Is the Brain a self-satisfying entity that for its own idiosyncrasies creates these mind states?

To put the question in simpler terms – do those neurons in your brain have a motivation for doing what they do? Because you are making it appear as though true life is all about the neurons and that what we enjoy in the world: love, wealth, pleasure, passion – are only side-effects or residue of the activity of such neurons. You are making the Neurons the only things that have purpose, whereas we, complete beings that we are, are purposeless, and rely on the whims of our neurons, obeying the commands of such neurons in whatever state.

This would mean that we are slaves, and have no will or consciousness, but are mere puppets being controlled by our masters – the neurons. The neurons are now the super race – they control us in absoluteness, and we are irrelevant.

In short, you have made the brain a being all by itself. The rest of you exists only to satisfy that little clump of matter.

Now this to me is just like the statement of that great carpenter: “Is man made for the Sabbath, or the Sabbath made for man?”

Is the brain made for man, or man made for the Brain?

You make it appear as though man is made for the brain.

I would have thought that the brain is a TOOL via which man apprehends the world.

No the atheist mind does not allow for the spiritual but it allows for the unknown

Can the spiritual not also be said to be part of the unknown?

Deep Sight:

Now this has always intrigued me: when people say – it’s all about the brain.

I ask you: What is the Brain’s motivation in doing these things? Is the Brain a self-satisfying entity that for its own idiosyncrasies creates these mind states?

To put the question in simpler terms – do those neurons in your brain have a motivation for doing what they do? Because you are making it appear as though true life is all about the neurons and that what we enjoy in the world: love, wealth, pleasure, passion – are only side-effects or residue of the activity of such neurons. You are making the Neurons the only things that have purpose, whereas we, complete beings that we are, are purposeless, and rely on the whims of our neurons, obeying the commands of such neurons in whatever state.

This would mean that we are slaves, and have no will or consciousness, but are mere puppets being controlled by our masters – the neurons. The neurons are now the super race – they control us in absoluteness, and we are irrelevant.

In short, you have made the brain a being all by itself. The rest of you exists only to satisfy that little clump of matter.

Now this to me is just like the statement of that great carpenter: “Is man made for the Sabbath, or the Sabbath made for man?”

Is the brain made for man, or man made for the Brain?

You make it appear as though man is made for the brain.

I would have thought that the brain is a TOOL via which man apprehends the world.

Can the spiritual not also be said to be part of the unknown?

I cannot say it is only about the brain, the spinal cord plays it own part in our consciousness also. But seriously, the brain is part of us, just a your stomach is part of us. The brain is the most complex object (known yet) in the universe. And the brain is not only unique to humans, all animals higher than arthropods has a sort of brain. We can study the evolution of the brain and study how successive complexity leads to a more complex animal and thus a more complex state of mind. The human brain has been so completely mapped that the various states responsible for various state of mind can be manipulated. The brain is very susceptible to chemicals and states of mind can be altered by the use of alcohol. Enzymes and hormones also affects are neurons and hereby our state of mind, Estrogen injected into a person male or female would elicit famine state of mind and features, heroine injected into the blood also alters the state of mind. Fear, love and other emotions produces hormones that alters our state of mind. Even entering into a trance is known to produce certain chemicals in the brain that alters the state of mind.

In a way we can say we are slaves to our brains, but the connections of the neurons must be connected in a certain way to determine your state of mind. Once these connections are complete it is near impossible to reconnect, that is why a child dies with the accent he acquires before the age of 10, the connections had been complete. Also that is why someone that have strong religious indoctrination from a very young age would find it difficult to think otherwise without some damage to his state of mind.

I hope i am making some sense.

"It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in Him."

@Deep sight.

The brain is a very complex organ and we're still unravelling the mysteries.
Whatever we feel or state of mind we find ourselves is usually as a result of happenings in our environment and the way we perceive it. Just like wirinet said, the possible states of mind are limitless and each situation is capable of throwing different people into different states.

More pointer to the fact everything emanates from the brain is the way certain drugs, poisons or toxins can totally change personalities and mindsets. A supposedly enlightened buddist monk with "inner peace" and "joy" would become disoriented when schizophrenic. Cocaine, marijuana and alcohol are known to put you in a state of serenity and joy where nothing else matters. The only difference here is KAG found that joy and inner happiness by discarding religion the same way you found yours by embracing the "oneness of infinity"

Its nothing spiritual. . . .two electrodes to your brain can change who you are.

And oh, KAG is a she and not a he.

The 20th-Century Denial of God

“People are resigned to the absence of God and are organizing their lives independently, for good or for ill, and without any reference to God.”—One Hundred Years of Debate Over God—The Sources of Modern Atheism.

THOUGH it is at first impressive, a towering tree is eventually regarded as commonplace. Its presence is familiar; its height is no longer awe-inspiring.

It is similar with atheism. Though it provoked much debate during the 19th century, the denial of God’s existence is neither shocking nor disturbing today. An era of tolerance has allowed atheism to settle into peaceful coexistence with belief in God.

Not that most people deny God outright; on the contrary, poll results from 11 countries throughout the Americas, Europe, and Asia reveal that, on the average, little more than 2 percent claim to be atheists. Nevertheless, an atheistic spirit is prevalent—even among many who believe that God exists. How can this be?

Denying God’s Authority

“Sometimes atheism refers simply to the practical rejection or ignoring of God,” notes The Encyclopedia Americana. For this reason, The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives the following second definition of “atheist”: “A person who denies God morally; a godless person.”

Yes, atheism may entail a denial either of God’s existence or of his authority or of both. The Bible alludes to this atheistic spirit at Titus 1:16: “They profess to acknowledge God, but deny him by their actions.”—The New English Bible; compare Psalm 14:1.

Such rejection of God’s authority can be traced back to the first human pair. Eve acknowledged God’s existence; yet, she wanted “to be like God, knowing good and bad.” The implication was that she could ‘be her own boss’ and create her own moral code. Adam later joined Eve in this denial of God’s authority.—Genesis 3:5, 6.

Is this attitude prevalent today? Yes. A subtle atheism is manifested in a quest for independence. “People today are tired of living under the eye of God,” observes the book One Hundred Years of Debate Over God—The Sources of Modern Atheism. “They . . . prefer to live in freedom.” The Bible’s moral code is renounced as impractical, unrealistic. The thinking of many is much like that of the Egyptian Pharaoh who defiantly declared: “Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey his voice . . . ? I do not know Jehovah at all.” He rejected Jehovah’s authority.—Exodus 5:2.

Christendom’s Denial of God

The most shocking denial of God’s authority comes from Christendom’s clergy, who have substituted man-made traditions for pure Bible truths. (Compare Matthew 15:9.) Additionally, they have backed the bloodiest wars of the 20th century, thus rejecting the Biblical command to display genuine love.—John 13:35.

The clergy have also denied God by turning their backs on his moral standards—as evidenced, for example, by a steady stream of lawsuits against pedophile priests. The situation of Christendom resembles that of ancient Israel and Judah. “The land is filled with bloodshed and the city is full of crookedness,” the prophet Ezekiel was told, “for they have said, ‘Jehovah has left the land, and Jehovah is not seeing.’” (Ezekiel 9:9; compare Isaiah 29:15.) Little wonder that many have abandoned Christendom’s churches altogether! But must they abandon belief in God?

The human brain as i said is very complex and it capabilities are extraordinary, it is common knowledge that we use less than 10% of our brain capacity and the person that can use up to 10% would turn out a genius.

The human brain has been said to remember every experience it has since birth, but that capacity has to be suppressed to enable the person function normally. This remembering capacity can be let loose in a state of hypnosis.

here is an interesting story on the subject - http://www.newsweek.com/id/136334

wirinet:

The human brain as i said is very complex and it capabilities are extraordinary, it is common knowledge that we use less than 10% of our brain capacity and the person that can use up to 10% would turn out a genius.

The human brain has been said to remember every experience it has since birth, but that capacity has to be suppressed to enable the person function normally. This remembering capacity can be let loose in a state of hypnosis.

here is an interesting story on the subject - http://www.newsweek.com/id/136334

Tudór:

@Deep sight.

The brain is a very complex organ and we're still unravelling the mysteries.
Whatever we feel or state of mind we find ourselves is usually as a result of happenings in our environment and the way we perceive it. Just like wirinet said, the possible states of mind are limitless and each situation is capable of throwing different people into different states.

More pointer to the fact everything emanates from the brain is the way certain drugs, poisons or toxins can totally change personalities and mindsets. A supposedly enlightened buddist monk with "inner peace" and "joy" would become disoriented when schizophrenic. Cocaine, marijuana and alcohol are known to put you in a state of serenity and joy where nothing else matters. The only difference here is KAG found that joy and inner happiness by discarding religion the same way you found yours by embracing the "oneness of infinity"

Its nothing spiritual. . . .two electrodes to your brain can change who you are.

Right. Might i ask you two to re-focus.

You are busy talking about the capacities of the brain. That is very well understood. But you need to respond one way or the other to my suggestion that it is a TOOL which man uses to APPREHEND the world. What say you to that?

In this do not be led astray by the fact that physical substances as you pointed out can affect the mood or state of mind. Given that the brain is a tool of the intangible mind, this is only to be expected, as it works in strict and direct association with the entire physiology of the man.

If the brain were really the man himself, then -

1. People who have near - death experiences in which the brain has already shut down (they are classified as brain-dead i.e: absolute zero neural activity and heart stopped for the period) would not be able to return to consciousness reporting visions they had in such a state. You may want to do some brief research on the well-documented cases of such near-death experiences.

2. It is also very well documented that some people have dreams about future events, which turn out to play out in startling detail. This has been my personal experience from a very young age right up till today. Might you want to suggest to me in what part of the brain such details of future events were stored?


3. How would you explain telepathy, psycho-kinesis, intuition and other human paranormal phenomena?

Nevertheless the foregoing is really all an aside. Because the core question remains the role of the brain: both of you are suggesting that the brain is the actual being – that the whole of mankind obey the dictates of neurons whose motivation must be presumed to be unknown and unknowable. Those neurons are working in concert towards the holistic perception of the man. Thus he hears, sees, feels, smells and taste, among many other functions.

Who is tasting that sweet? You make it appear as though the neurons for their own pleasure are tasting the sweet. The man is tasting the sweet through the faculty of the tongue and messages sent thereby to his brain and processed therein.

And who is hearing that music. Again you both make it appear as though the neurons arte having a party drinking wine and shagging babes inside the brain as they enjoy that music. That is absurd of course. Again, we see that the MAN is hearing and enjoying the music THROUGH the faculty of the ear and messages passed to the brain thereby and processed therein.

Who is appreciating that superb piece of art by Leonardo Da Vinci? I suppose the neurons are also art gurus, and are really enjoying the oil on canvass. Of course the man, through the faculty of the eyes, and messages sent back to the brain, - is appreciating that painting.

Now the fact that the brain works in concert with other body parts proves the point conclusively.

Why do you have a pair of eyes – so that the brain can see – or so that YOU can see?

Perhaps when you have sex, the neurons in your brain are gasping oooo and aaaah, because they just love it? No, the neurons help the man to experience the sensation.

So my trouble is that you guys make it appear as though the brain is a creature of its own, and all the parts of the body are its crutches.

All the senses and the parts of your body are evidence that a being needs to apprehend the world around it. And the brain is the faculty through which we do that.

As such, if you take substances that affect the brain, of course, your mind -state will be affected. Go pour acid into the brain-box of your car – of course the state of the car will be very badly affected. That does not make the brain-box the car, It is a tool vial which the whole vehicle functions.

Thus I make this rational contention to you: wherever a complex system exists and delivers a function or functions, that system is not the recipient in itself of the functions.

Digest this, and then disprove it if you can.

A crude example is this: car = complex system. Car does not exist to drive ITSELF around for ITS own purposes. It exists to ferry MAN around.

Again: A Computer. Complex System. Does it exist to please itself, or process information for MAN? ? ?

The brain is very much like a super computer – it is the ultimate information processor. For whom, or for what, does it process all that information? For itself?

I hope you are getting an idea of how possibly ludicrous the idea you are advancing is: That the brain does all these things to please itself!

IT IS GLARING that such systems work to support something else: namely the BEING.

The question should be what is this BEING and from where does it emanate? The sense of being is definately your subconscious, thoughts and feelings and are all in the brain.

You talk as if the man and the brain are two different things. Fact is the MAN is the BRAIN.

The brain controls everything from eating to drinking i.e EVERYTHING.

Why do we eat, drink, party and have sex? Its for the feeling of pleasure. The wonderful sensation we get from doing all these things is why the average man moves towards these.

Your car analogy is just ridiculous. A car doesn't have a subconcious. If what you're saying is true brain damage should in no way affect counciousness and the inner core of a subject. NOTHING should alter personality (The man).

Animals have brains too. . . I guess its the spirit of the goat thats tasting the grass rather than the brain, or the inner spirit of the bird enjoys the singing of its female right?

Is it a coincidence as organisms get up the ranks their brain becomes much complex?

Tudór:

The sense of being is definately your subconscious

I hope you realize with this you have ceded the debate.

I didn't really want to get too involved in this thread but I feel the urge to throw an idea or two into the mix.  

What if the brain is not so much an organ for apprehending our reality but rather an organ for organising our reality.  

For instance Aldous Huxley suggested that the brain is like a funnel that filters out much of the information in reality and limits what we perceive down to what is simply necessary for survival and culture.  Therefore by ingesting drugs, it is not so much that the drug puts something in the brain to make it experience weird stuff but rather the drug impedes the brain from filtering out the 'weird stuff'.  

How are we sure there is a brain?  Apparently we think we have a brain because our brain is telling us that we have a brain.  We see the brains of other animals and other humans.  yet the brain that we see in these instances is just another aspect of the reality that is being apprehended.  What if the whole reality is an illusion. We have a faculty that makes up the illusion and part of the illusion is the illusion that there is a brain that is doing the perceiving.  Okay this one don take tangent go.

ps. I don't think that the brain is hardwired by age 10, wirinet.  I, for instance, had a typical lagos accent when I was ten yet after many years of living abroad since I was 13 (back and forth from school and 9ja)  I would say that my default accent is English.  If I am caught unawares I would probably exclaim in an english accent.  
oh, by the way, what is the definition of spiritual?  I mean the definition that makes no sense.

Deep Sight:

Now this has always intrigued me: when people say – it’s all about the brain.

I ask you: What is the Brain’s motivation in doing these things? Is the Brain a self-satisfying entity that for its own idiosyncrasies creates these mind states?

To put the question in simpler terms – do those neurons in your brain have a motivation for doing what they do? Because you are making it appear as though true life is all about the neurons and that what we enjoy in the world: love, wealth, pleasure, passion – are only side-effects or residue of the activity of such neurons. You are making the Neurons the only things that have purpose, whereas we, complete beings that we are, are purposeless, and rely on the whims of our neurons, obeying the commands of such neurons in whatever state.

This would mean that we are slaves, and have no will or consciousness, but are mere puppets being controlled by our masters – the neurons. The neurons are now the super race – they control us in absoluteness, and we are irrelevant.

In short, you have made the brain a being all by itself. The rest of you exists only to satisfy that little clump of matter.

Now this to me is just like the statement of that great carpenter: “Is man made for the Sabbath, or the Sabbath made for man?”

Is the brain made for man, or man made for the Brain?

You make it appear as though man is made for the brain.

I would have thought that the brain is a TOOL via which man apprehends the world.

I might be wrong but I think that what you are saying here is that we cannot escape from the metaphysical.  All our thoughts about anything have some basis in metaphysics.

1. You're only DEAD when you're brain is totally dead and no neurons are working hence you cannot breathe, move or use your senses. Your might not have a heartbeat but your brain is still alive. Thats why doctors test pupillary reflexes by shining a torch to the eyes to confirm death.

2. Near-death is not the same as DEAD. Its in the process of dying but somehow you're brought back by medicine probably you're heart is restarted. The brain doesn't just die like that, its a gradual process. Thats why some people have some sort of brain damage after NDE's.

3. Once you're DEAD you can NEVER regain consciousness. It has NEVER happened.

4. People who are unconscious or in a coma have a problem with the part of the brain that controls consciousness. Other areas may still be functional hence they still breathe and have heartbeats if not they're hooked to machines.

Deep Sight:

I hope you realize with this you have ceded the debate.

The only issue is you believe the subconscious/being to LIE outside the brain but what i'm telling you is being and subconscious are a product of our brains.

@pastor AIO

How are we sure we have a brain? Humans only came to know what is in our skull when we saw what was in the skull of a dead man.

Anyone who's not sure can go get a CT scan.

Tudór:

@pastor AIO

How are we sure we have a brain? Humans only came to know what is in our skull when we saw what was in the skull of a dead man.

Anyone who's not sure can go get a CT scan.

Yes, but how can you trust anything that you perceive. Perhaps it is all one big illusion.

Anyway, I'm just playing with ideas. Please continue as you were.

As for dreams, telepathy, psycho kinesis and what not it's known we actually use only 10% of our brain power. It isn't far fetched to think one would be able to do all these if we can harness a larger percentage of our brains.

There's nothing spiritual about dreams, a completely brain dead individual who is still kept alive by lung, heart and dialysis machines cannot dream neither can they hope to be telepathic. There is no brain activity on the EEG.

@pastor
I understand.

Tudorm you are YET to address THIS -

Thus I make this rational contention to you: wherever a complex system exists and delivers a function or functions, that system is not the recipient in itself of the functions.

Disprove it.

You can only have a point if you can show me that the Brain is conscious of itself as a creature called a brain, whose work is to control something called a man.

A complex system that exists and delivers a function for itself?

Howbout the universe or earth in particular?

The earth is complex in itself and it functions are geared towards it in itself.

All processes that go on naturally on earth go on to define the earth itself. Right?

Oh PUHLEEEEAAASSEE!

That is a bad example because th ereverse argument is too ovbious namely that the earth has those systems to support LIFE, not itself. Ditto for the universe.

Try again.

Telescope:

The 20th-Century Denial of God

“People are resigned to the absence of God and are organizing their lives independently, for good or for ill, and without any reference to God.”—One Hundred Years of Debate Over God—The Sources of Modern Atheism.

THOUGH it is at first impressive, a towering tree is eventually regarded as commonplace. Its presence is familiar; its height is no longer awe-inspiring.

It is similar with atheism. Though it provoked much debate during the 19th century, the denial of God’s existence is neither shocking nor disturbing today. An era of tolerance has allowed atheism to settle into peaceful coexistence with belief in God.

Not that most people deny God outright; on the contrary, poll results from 11 countries throughout the Americas, Europe, and Asia reveal that, on the average, little more than 2 percent claim to be atheists. Nevertheless, an atheistic spirit is prevalent—even among many who believe that God exists. How can this be?

Denying God’s Authority

“Sometimes atheism refers simply to the practical rejection or ignoring of God,” notes The Encyclopedia Americana. For this reason, The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives the following second definition of “atheist”: “A person who denies God morally; a godless person.”

Yes, atheism may entail a denial either of God’s existence or of his authority or of both. The Bible alludes to this atheistic spirit at Titus 1:16: “They profess to acknowledge God, but deny him by their actions.”—The New English Bible; compare Psalm 14:1.

Such rejection of God’s authority can be traced back to the first human pair. Eve acknowledged God’s existence; yet, she wanted “to be like God, knowing good and bad.” The implication was that she could ‘be her own boss’ and create her own moral code. Adam later joined Eve in this denial of God’s authority.—Genesis 3:5, 6.

Is this attitude prevalent today? Yes. A subtle atheism is manifested in a quest for independence. “People today are tired of living under the eye of God,” observes the book One Hundred Years of Debate Over God—The Sources of Modern Atheism. “They . . . prefer to live in freedom.” The Bible’s moral code is renounced as impractical, unrealistic. The thinking of many is much like that of the Egyptian Pharaoh who defiantly declared: “Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey his voice . . . ? I do not know Jehovah at all.” He rejected Jehovah’s authority.—Exodus 5:2.

Christendom’s Denial of God

The most shocking denial of God’s authority comes from Christendom’s clergy, who have substituted man-made traditions for pure Bible truths. (Compare Matthew 15:9.) Additionally, they have backed the bloodiest wars of the 20th century, thus rejecting the Biblical command to display genuine love.—John 13:35.

The clergy have also denied God by turning their backs on his moral standards—as evidenced, for example, by a steady stream of lawsuits against pedophile priests. The situation of Christendom resembles that of ancient Israel and Judah. “The land is filled with bloodshed and the city is full of crookedness,” the prophet Ezekiel was told, “for they have said, ‘Jehovah has left the land, and Jehovah is not seeing.’” (Ezekiel 9:9; compare Isaiah 29:15.) Little wonder that many have abandoned Christendom’s churches altogether! But must they abandon belief in God?

beautiful.

What life?
Before life began on earth what then?
Are you saying without life the earth cannot survive?

Everything down from rainfall to life is geared towards balancing the earth and its ecosystem. Everything has its place and function. So also like EVERYTHING life is governed by little chemical processes here and there.

Saying the earth is geared towards maintaining life is like saying the earth's systems are for maintaining rainfall. . .how ridiculous is that?

I'm sure the universe and all its complexities are there to support life too, right?

Try again abeg!

Deep Sight:

Tudorm you are YET to address THIS -

Emm its Tudór boss.

You can only have a point if you can show me that the Brain is conscious of itself as a creature called a brain, whose work is to control something called a man.

Wrong! The brain is conscious of itself as the MAN.

^^^ Listen up son - what the hell does the earth need any of those systems for? What does it need "balance" for? Would it matter to the earth if it was a bare empty cold rock? Would the earth feel sad, that it was a bare empty cold rock? The planet Uranus Venus may not have Earth's systems - any problem there? ? ?

I am amused that you say that everything is geared towards balancing the earth and its ecosystem - because in saying so you shoot yourself in the foot: what is an ecosystem? An eco-system contains LIFE and CREATURES.

Thus, you have again ceded the debate by stating that everything is geared towards supporting life!

Thanks for throwing in the Towel!

_{*singing* oh, sweet victory. . . .}

Deep Sight:
^^^ Listen up son - what the hell does the earth need any of those systems for? What does it need "balance" for? Would it matter to the earth if it was a bare empty cold rock? Would the earth feel sad, that it was a bare empty cold rock?

The earth was probably cold and bare rock at some point in its existence, so what?

The point is the earth through time developed in to what it is today.

WE are a product of such development. The first living thing was formed from chemica rxn involvn elements in this earth hence we are a component/part of this earth.

Everything is geared towards maintaining the ecosystem. . .what is the ecosystem if not the Earth itself?

The planet Uranus Venus may not have Earth's systems - any problem there? ? ?

The planets venus and uranus are made up of different elements in different percentages from earths , lesser sunlight e.t.c,therefore processes and reactions over time lead to a different end result.

I will not entertain any escapism. You stated yourself clearly that everything is geared towards balancing the ecosystem.

Life is the cardinal and central aspect of an ecosystem - that's why you cannot speak of ecosystems on mars.

This from wikipedia prove it:

Central to the ecosystem concept is the idea that living organisms interact with every other element in their local environment. Eugene Odum, a founder of ecology, stated: "Any unit that includes all of the organisms (ie: the "community" in a given area interacting with the physical environment so that a flow of energy leads to clearly defined trophic structure, biotic diversity, and material cycles (ie: exchange of materials between living and nonliving parts) within the system is an ecosystem."[2]

Thus your concession of defeat remains intact since you concluded yourself that every thing is geared towards the ecosystem - thus life, as life is its cardinal aspect!


No escape, the case is closaed via your own words, Tudor!

Actually, it has not been proven that we only use 10% or less of our brains. It's a myth. Just sit back and think about what this means. Is it that we only use 10% of our neurons? Or the brain is highly inefficient wasting 90% of glucose and oxygen it consumes? If this were true? Why would highly intelligent animals have a high brain to body mass ratio?

Back to the topic.

I feel that the spirituality that goes with atheism is more of a beauty and wonder at the universe and the sense that matter at all levels display some sort of order or symmetry a lot of which we still do not understand. I think it also includes the joy of discovery of these natural phenomena.

Deep Sight:
I will not entertain any escapism.You stated yourself clearly that everything is geared towards balancing the ecosystem.
Life is the cardinal and central aspect of an ecosystem - that's why you cannot speak of ecosystems on mars.
This from wikipedia prove it:
Thus your concession of defeat remains intact since you concluded yourself that every thing is geared towards the ecosystem - thus life, as life is its cardinal aspect!
No escape, the case is closaed via your own words,Tudor!

The ecosystem is a complex system of diff components that totally dependent on one another. . .remove the sun no ecosystem, remove water nada, take away life and ecosystem is dead. The earth changes and becomes something else.

Life is a component of the ecosystem and along with other components works towards maintaining the ecosystem.

And I repeat again, the ecosystem was formed by the developing earth. The ecosystem through its biotic and abiotic component make up the earth.

Wat escapism?

Tudór:

The ecosystem is a complex system of diff components that totally dependent on one another. . .remove the sun no ecosystem, remove water nada, take away life and ecosystem is dead. The earth changes and becomes something else.

Life is a component of the ecosystem and along with other components works towards maintaining the ecosystem.

And I repeat again, the ecosystem was formed by the developing earth. The ecosystem through its biotic and abiotic component make up the earth.

Wat escapism?

THIS IS STILL ESCAPISM AND IT WILL NOT BE PERMITTED TODAY.

Read what you have written. You said that life works towards maintaining the ecosystem. I positively assert that the ecosystem supports and maintains LIFE.

What is the purpose of a rock? Is it the purpose of life to support a rock or the purpose of the rock to support life? Don’t be absurd.

You speak as though the earth is a being that was desperately in need of LIFE to survive. If that’s truly the case then every planet out there would develop life, as they would need it to maintain balance!

No way: no retraction – there can be no ecosystem without the crowning component: LIFE, and as such it is only logical to accept that all things were driving towards LIFE.

Indeed this only makes sense given that LIFE is the end product of the evolving phases of the earth. It makes further sense when we realize that man is the last creature to appear on the earth in terms of evolutionary categorization of broad species. Thus logically it is obvious that this was the goal: this is where the whole damn story was heading towards, it was heading to a state capable of supporting not just life, but man. Damn, even natural selection reflects this!

Tudor it is not too late to escape with your dignity intact. Fact remains that you have since accepted the truth that the earth’s systems were geared towards life, and that is that.

Given that, we can conclude that the Brain as a system supports LIFE and not the other way round.

GBAM, GBAM, GBOGA!!!