Katsumoto:

I understand what you are saying. But the reason Ojukwu chose Banjo was because he felt that a force headed by an upright Yoruba man would be more acceptable to the Yoruba. Banjo paid for that indecision at Ore with his life.

I[b] disagree with the the notion that Biafra would have won the war if the force got to Lagos. You seem to be ignoring the fact that Gowon would have sent the 2nd division after the BEF and the Biafrans would have been trapped between the 2nd division and the core of the brigades in Lagos which formed the 3rd Division. They would have been outnumbered and out-gunned.[/b]

Pal, you seem to have forgotten the moment of the time and prevailing political wind blowing across Nigeria at that particular time. The 2nd Division which was created out of 2nd Brigade with less than brigade strength and LGO that gave rise to 3MCDO were not even a brigade size military formation at the time and would have been scattered towards north where their leader (Gowon) would have been sitting in Kaduna. The moment the 101 entered Lagos, Ijebu people and otherYoruba would have joined forces with 101. Remember that three senior army officers of Yoruba stock had earlier gone to Gowon requesting that all the non-Yoruba forces should be moved out of Lagos and other Yoruba land. One of the officers later quit Nigerian army instead of fighting Biafrans.

The Biafra lost one of the major weapons of war at Ore and the weapon in reference is element of surprise. 101 collapsed primarily due to actions of the GOC who refused to continue the match to Lagos and bent on imprisoning his field commanders who dared to question his intentions of stopping at Ore for no military reasons. 

You remember that many fence-sitters were just waiting to see which direction the political winds seem to be blowing. When 101 came across, people were on the road sides jubilating but when 101 was on the run the same mass of humans came out to welcome Nigerian side.

Dede1:


Pal, you seem to have forgotten the moment of the time and prevailing political wind blowing across Nigeria at that particular time. The 2nd Division which was created out of 2nd Brigade with less than brigade strength and LGO that gave rise to 3MCDO were not even a brigade size military formation at the time and would have been scattered towards north where their leader (Gowon) would have been sitting in Kaduna. The moment the 101 entered Lagos, Ijebu people and otherYoruba would have joined forces with 101. Remember that three senior army officers of Yoruba stock had earlier gone to Gowon requesting that all the non-Yoruba forces should be moved out of Lagos and other Yoruba land. One of the officers later quit Nigerian army instead of fighting Biafrans.

The Biafra lost one of the major weapons of war at Ore and the weapon in reference is element of surprise. 101 collapsed primarily due to actions of the GOC who refused to continue the match to Lagos and bent on imprisoning his field commanders who dared to question his intentions of stopping at Ore for no military reasons.

You remember that many fence-sitters were just waiting to see which direction the political winds seem to be blowing. When 101 came across, people were on the road sides jubilating but when 101 was on the run the same mass of humans came out to welcome Nigerian size.

Bro Dede1, don't mind katsumoto, I don't think he can see your point easily. That war was lost at Ore, simple. All the players that took sides did so after the Ore debacle.

Onlytruth:

Bro Dede1, don't mind katsumoto, I don't think he can see your point easily. That war was lost at Ore, simple. All the players that took sides did so after the Ore debacle.

Bros, we must not fail to hammer the truth on Ndigbo in particular and Biafrans in general. I could not stop amusing myself when reading through the names of the pan-handlers at the convened meeting of the so-called south-south leaders from another thread.

Dede1:


Pal, you seem to have forgotten the moment of the time and prevailing political wind blowing across Nigeria at that particular time. The 2nd Division which was created out of 2nd Brigade with less than brigade strength and LGO that gave rise to 3MCDO were not even a brigade size military formation at the time and would have been scattered towards north where their leader (Gowon) would have been sitting in Kaduna. The moment the 101 entered Lagos, Ijebu people and otherYoruba would have joined forces with 101. Remember that three senior army officers of Yoruba stock had earlier gone to Gowon requesting that all the non-Yoruba forces should be moved out of Lagos and other Yoruba land. One of the officers later quit Nigerian army instead of fighting Biafrans.

The Biafra lost one of the major weapons of war at Ore and the weapon in reference is element of surprise. 101 collapsed primarily due to actions of the GOC who refused to continue the match to Lagos and bent on imprisoning his field commanders who dared to question his intentions of stopping at Ore for no military reasons. 

You remember that many fence-sitters were just waiting to see which direction the political winds seem to be blowing. When 101 came across, people were on the road sides jubilating but when 101 was on the run the same mass of humans came out to welcome Nigerian side. 

Onlytruth:

Bro Dede1, don't mind katsumoto, I don't think he can see your point easily. That war was lost at Ore, simple. All the players that took sides did so after the Ore debacle.

Why do you speak for me? I understand perfectly what the position; I agree with some while I am unsure of others simply because it is difficult to state emphatically and unequivocally a position concerning a situation that did not arise.
Some would argue that the war was lost after Ore for different reasons. They would argue that it brought other sides into the war who would otherwise might have remained neutral. If Biafran victory rested solely on getting to Lagos (I disagree with that position), then sending Banjo to Lagos without the tacit support of the Yoruba Leaders was always going to be a mistake. You must remember that there was no agreement between Ojukwu and the Yoruba leaders, although there were Yoruba groups that were either sympathetic to the Biafran cause and/or wanted to join forces with them.

The dilemma for Banjo at Ore was that he was caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Awo and co sent a message to him not to proceed beyond Ore because there was NO AGREEMENT with Ojukwu. That was the main error. You have to remember that this was an era of deep suspicions. We know what Ojukwu wanted Banjo to do but we can never know Ojukwu's true intentions. He may have wanted the West on his side or he may have wanted to occupy the West. The question is, 'why did he not have an agreement first before sending forces?'. Without an agreement, the West did not want to become a battle ground and hence the message to Banjo to turn back.

I agree with the position that if the West welcomed the BEF and joined forces with them, they might have defeated the North. Why did Ojukwu and his commanders not strenghten positions towards the sea instead of going towards the West? What would have happened if Ojukwu did not venture to the West and the West stayed neutral? Assuming that the GOC of the BEF was Igbo (since you argue it was a strategic error to make Banjo GOC) and he proceeded to Lagos without the agreement of Yoruba leaders, do you think they would have still had the support of the Yoruba? I don't think so. Regardless of who was leading the BEF, Ojukwu needed the support of Yoruba leaders before venturing into the West. Without support, they would have had just the element of surprise. The element of surprise would not have been enough, because like I said previously, the BEF would have been caught between the brigades in Lagos and the brigades from Kaduna which formed the 2nd division.

Dede1:


This is partially correct because there was no indigenous government of Nigeria with the position of Prima Minister in 1959. However, this situation changed once the protectorates gained Independence in 1960 and new constitution was drawn. The 1960 Nigerian constitution stipulated how the office of Prime Minister should be filled in case vacancy occurred.

The arrangement of ministerial posts including that of the Prime Minister and Ranking Minister is negotiated by the parties that joined together to form a coalition government. The constitution declared that a candidate selected for position of Prime Minister must have unanimous support of the ministers of the parties in the coalition government.

NPC should not be allowed to pick Prime Minister because NPC could not form a government as a result of the polls that did not give NPC the enough majority seats to form government alone. If NPC should be granted the right to select the prime minister based on tribal composition, the party should also have been granted leverage to select the President, Senate President and House Speaker. If tribal prism was applied in selection of the Prime Minister, why did NPC present another Kanuri for the post?

I thought Nigeria was for all and one entity. The thought of Igbo being president and Igbo should not be a prime minister remains the corner stone of tribal stranglehold on Nigeria till today. Nigerians tend to wake from their political slumber when two or more Igbo persons are holding visible political post. This is a scenario that invokes the fear of Igbo domination from other ethnic groups. It would have been a smooth sailing if Hausa was the president and Hausa the prime minister.

Dede1
That is not what the debate is about. The position you stated above is wrong for the following reasons:
1. NCNC and NPC had an agreement and formed a coalition.
2. Igbo officers killed non-Igbo members of government. If you want to argue that it was not an Igbo coup, should Igbo sons now work towards ensuring that the other party to the agreement remain side-lined?
3. The co-existence of all tribes in Nigeria was predicated on a fragile balance. Arguing that the President, Prime Minister, Senate President, and GOC of the Armed Forces should all be Igbo/Eastern does amount to domination of other tribes by the Igbo.
4. My argument was always that after the actions of the Igbo officers, the action of the NCNC to ignore the agreement with the NPC is what gave credence to the belief that it was an Igbo coup and this is what led to the counter-coup of July 1966. It would have been difficult to argue that it was an Igbo coup if Ironsi foiled the coup, tried and executed the plotters immediately, and Orizu had maintained the balance of power and existing agreement by handing over to Dipcharima. Think about it for a minute or two
5. This debate is not about who was best for the job. We have seen that they were all clowns (Zik, Awo, Sardauna) and their actions have led Nigeria down the wrong path.

Katsumoto:

Dede1
That is not what the debate is about. The position you stated above is wrong for the following reasons:
1. NCNC and NPC had an agreement and formed a coalition.
2. Igbo officers killed non-Igbo members of government. If you want to argue that it was not an Igbo coup, should Igbo sons now work towards ensuring that the other party to the agreement remain side-lined?
3. The co-existence of all tribes in Nigeria was predicated on a fragile balance. Arguing that the President, Prime Minister, Senate President, and GOC of the Armed Forces should all be Igbo/Eastern does amount to domination of other tribes by the Igbo.
4. My argument was always that after the actions of the Igbo officers, the action of the NCNC to ignore the agreement with the NPC is what gave credence to the belief that it was an Igbo coup and this is what led to the counter-coup of July 1966. It would have been difficult to argue that it was an Igbo coup if Ironsi foiled the coup, tried and executed the plotters immediately, and Orizu had maintained the balance of power and existing agreement by handing over to Dipcharima. Think about it for a minute or two
5. This debate is not about who was best for the job. We have seen that they were all clowns (Zik, Awo, Sardauna) and their actions have led Nigeria down the wrong path.

I perfectly understood your plank of the argument which makes sense to anybody who is unpatriotic toward Nigeria and tend to kick unity and oneness to the curb.

I do not think that this debate would change your mindset as you repeatedly stated that your argument hinges of Igbo officers taking over power. The last time I checked though, Igbo was not a country and had no standing army. The overthrow of Balewa government was precipitated by Nigerian armed forces period.

NPC members knew that coalition government between two parties detected that the senior partner produces the Prime Minister and junior partner produces the Ranking Minister who is, all intents and practical purposes, de facto deputy Prime Minister. If not for the issue of deep mistrust and a country created out of colonial machination, the idea of NPC ministers caucusing to select Dipcharima as PM without the coalition partners was wrong and unacceptable.

It is even pathetic that the ministers knew who deputizes for PM in certain occasions. The Ranking Minister would have become the acting PM and when situation is under control would work with the President and ministers in council to appoint another PM from the north probably Dipcharima because he was an NCNC member before joining NPC. The action of NPC ministers pointed to the thought process that northern political elites have always arrogated to themselves that the act of ruling Nigeria is their birth right with wholesome support from few deluded southern political elites.

I have never argued about who was the best or more educated in terms of European or western education for the job of Prime Minister. If educational qualification was the yard stick, there was no northern politician that would have landed a position of minister without portfolio talk less substantives minister.

Dede1:

I perfectly understood your plank of the argument which makes sense to anybody who is unpatriotic toward Nigeria and tend to kick unity and oneness to the curb.

I do not think that this debate would change your mindset as you repeatedly stated that your argument hinges of Igbo officers taking over power. The last time I checked though, Igbo was not a country and had no standing army. The overthrow of Balewa government was precipitated by Nigerian armed forces period.

NPC members knew that coalition government between two parties detected that the senior partner produces the Prime Minister and junior partner produces the Ranking Minister who is, all intents and practical purposes, de facto deputy Prime Minister. If not for the issue of deep mistrust and a country created out of colonial machination, the idea of NPC ministers caucusing to select Dipcharima as PM without the coalition partners was wrong and unacceptable.

It is even pathetic that the ministers knew who deputizes for PM in certain occasions. The Ranking Minister would have become the acting PM and when situation is under control would work with the President and ministers in council to appoint another PM from the north probably Dipcharima because he was an NCNC member before joining NPC. The action of NPC ministers pointed to the thought process that northern political elites have always arrogated to themselves that the act of ruling Nigeria is their birth right with wholesome support from few deluded southern political elites.

I have never argued about who was the best or more educated in terms of European or western education for the job of Prime Minister. If educational qualification was the yard stick, there was no northern politician that would have landed a position of minister without portfolio talk less substantives minister.   

Did NCNC members not caucus and choose Mbadiwe? Would NPC and NCNC have come to an agreement to select the PM and President? Is that not what politics is about?

You say my argument is unpatriotic towards to Nigeria. I will argue that my position is more pro-Nigeria and pro-unity than yours. Your argument is basicly pro-Igbo. After-all, I am neither an NPC supporter nor am I from the North.

We are not discussing what was best for Nigeria at that time; we are discussing the balance of power achieved through regional politics, negotiations, and compromise. I ask you again, 'how do you expect the remaining sections of the country to feel if a coup organised and executed by a group of officers with a core that was Igbo resulted in the President, PM, Senate President, and GOC of the army from the East?'. How unifying is that? I am asking from the point of view of the average Nigerian and not some experienced analysts. I agree with you that the North did not have any qualified ministers but that point is moot since NCNC went into a coalition with them anyway.

Let us be objective in our analysis. Looking at the composition of Nigeria, it is very clear that the arrangement was always going to fail. Ask the colonial masters why the Welsh, Irish, and Scottish rarely produce PMs or the Americans why Obama is the first none-white president. There were three powerful regions with three different cultures; although the Yoruba culture was a mixture of the very polarising and different Igbo (Democratic) and Hausa/Fulani (Feudal) cultures. You would have expected the coalition to be between the Igbo and Yoruba or Yoruba and Hausa/Fulani. But guess what, the Igbo and Hausa/Fulani formed the coalition. The only system of government that would have worked would have involved a very weak centre and powerful regions.

It's good to find folks that are well grounded in the history of Nigeria. Dede1, you're really good and Katsumoto, I'm impressed. I think I've learnt a lot of things I purposefully refused to reserch about due to the anger I feel finding out grave mistakes made by those that got independence for us. I still can't find a reason why Zik, a well educated man, should chose to be a junior partner in a coalition government with someone that's not well read and whos party members lack knowledge. No matter how betrayed he felt to found out that Awolowo was negotiating for Finance porfolio with NPC at the same time with NCNC. My point is that I'd rather enter into opposition with the government than to become a junior partner to someone that's supposed to be my "junior" in terms of knowledge and the struggle for independence. The wisest thing he should have done was to still negotiate with Awo and become the senior partner if it works or enter into opposition. Secondly, concerning the 1966 coup, I'll never believe it was an Igbo coup because, judging from subsequent coups and human nature, folks tend to move or relate more with folks from their race, country, or tribe. So the only persons Ifeajuna should trust more while planning for the coup, the first ever, where fellow Igbos and probable very close alies from other tribes. A lot more mistakes, I'll say due to stupidity, landed us to this present day with 2 CIC's of the same army.

006:

It's good to find folks that are well grounded in the history of Nigeria. Dede1, you're really good and Katsumoto, I'm impressed. I think I've learnt a lot of things I purposefully refused to reserch about due to the anger I feel finding out grave mistakes made by those that got independence for us. I still can't find a reason why Zik, a well educated man, should chose to be a junior partner in a coalition government with someone that's not well read and whos party members lack knowledge. No matter how betrayed he felt to found out that Awolowo was negotiating for Finance porfolio with NPC at the same time with NCNC. My point is that I'd rather enter into opposition with the government than to become a junior partner to someone that's supposed to be my "junior" in terms of knowledge and the struggle for independence. The wisest thing he should have done was to still negotiate with Awo and become the senior partner if it works or enter into opposition. Secondly, concerning the 1966 coup, I'll never believe it was an Igbo coup because, judging from subsequent coups and human nature, folks tend to move or relate more with folks from their race, country, or tribe. So the only persons Ifeajuna should trust more while planning for the coup, the first ever, where fellow Igbos and probable very close alies from other tribes. A lot more mistakes, I'll say due to stupidity, landed us to this present day with 2 CIC's of the same army.

You have a lot of valid points such as why Zik formed a coalition with NPC and also why the compostion of the plotters was such. Whenever I think of the reasons why Nigeria has failed, I remember the proverb about a house built on faulty foundations. I try not to blame the founding fathers because they were meandering through unknown and unchartered territories. I tend to always lay the blame on the British for several deliberate errors such as the amalgamation of very diverse and different cultures, the attempt to rule through the caliphate, the fraudulent census figures which were used to rig NPC into power, etc.

For the aforementioned reasons, I tend to agree with those who call for a SNC to determine once and for all, the future of Nigeria. Without addressing the mistakes of the past honestly, objectively, and dispassionately, we will continue to run around in circles.