Marriage Ties
(3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained
a bachelor all his life.is this true?
"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses."

How they Departed
4 "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to
Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross. Is this true?"
Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but
Muhummed is like Moses."


Heavenly Abode
5 "Moses and Muhummed both lie buried on earth, but according to you,
Jesus rests in heaven. Is this true?": "Therefore
Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

chakula:

Marriage Ties
(3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained
a bachelor all his life.is this true?
"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses."

after his rejection,Moses took a Gentile Bride.Exodus 2:15-16 Exodus 2:21-22.
Christ is now gathering together His mostly Gentile Bride of Christ. 2corinthians 11:2
chaluka dnt be too sure

chakula:

How they Departed
4 "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to
Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross. Is this true?"
Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but
Muhummed is like Moses."


Heavenly Abode
5 "Moses and Muhummed both lie buried on earth, but according to you,
Jesus rests in heaven. Is this true?": "Therefore
Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

Guy mohammad was poisoned,he didnt die a natural death.Rem when he was dying in the arms of Ayesha(9 yr old he married) he placed a curse on xtians&jews.Moses died around mount Nebo&no one saw his body.Deut 34.Guy dnt lie

chakula:

@ vairo,

will you continue to conclude the verse translation, since that word brethren is the only word that you translate out of the verse,

No problem, when I cite a verse reference, I'll try and quote what it says.

However, I'm sure it's not only "brethren" you saw in all I've posted so far - there were other points you seem to have ignored. Why?

chakula:

Three Unlikes: In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to you - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God, is this true?"

It is true that I believe Jesus to be God because He is Deity - the OT and the NT are agreed on this point. However, even though Moses is not deity, that does not negate the fact that Jesus is that 'Propeht' spoken about in Deuteronomy 18 who should be like unto Moses. Later on I shall show you the true implications of the 'similarities' between Moses and Jesus Christ.

chakula:

"SECONDLY, according to you - 'JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD', but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?"

Absolutely true. Just like the first argument above, Jesus was not supposed to be a 'clone' of Moses; and the redemption that Jesus brought to humanity was not denied in Moses' writing (Genesis 49:10 and Deut. 30:6). This was why Jesus Himself said in the NT that Moses wrote about Him (Jesus) - John 5:46; and some among His followers recognized indeed that Moses had written about Jesus and not about Muhammad >> 'Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph' (John 1:45).

chakula:

"THIRDLY, according to you - 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but
Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?"

That is also true - and even so, your argument does not negate the fact that Jesus was that Prophet like unto Moses. Just as your second argument above, the fact that Moses is not God and did not die for the sins of the whole world, still does not make Muhammad like Moses. You would first have to explain how Muhammad as an Arab was in the midst of the Israelites as Deut. 18:15 says, and if you cannot answer that simple question, then it becomes apparent that you're desperate to force Muhammad into the Bible.

chakula:

Father and Mother
(1) "Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a
mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true?" He
said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses!"

Having a father or mother is not a similarity that puts Muhammad in Deuteronomy 18. ALL the prophets had both fathers and mothers, even though the parents of some prophets are not named. In fact, it could be argued that while Muhammad had over 20 wives, Moses could not boast of even 5 wives - where is the so-called 'similarity' between them?

Again, we know at least, that while Moses was a Jewish prophet, Muhammad was not Jewish. And since Deuteronomy 18:15 says that the Prophet like unto Moses would rise from the midst of Israel, it is clear that a Jewish prophet was expected. How do you argue any Jewish background for Muhammad then?

chakula:
Miraculous Birth
(2) "Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the
physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special
miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St. Matthew 1:18." '.
. . . . . BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER, (Joseph the Carpenter and Mary)
SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD BY THE HOLY GHOST.' And St. Luke tells
us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announced to her,
Mary reasoned: '. . . . . HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN?
AND THE ANGEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HER, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL
COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW
THEE: . . . . .' (Luke 1:35).

The miraculous birth of Jesus does not negate the fact that He would be that Prophet like unto Moses. Muhammad had nothing miraculous about his birth; and if one looks closely at the births of all three personages here, that of Jesus is akin to that of Moses. We see that toba has already hinted that at the time of Moses' birth, the lives of children were threatened - and so it was at the birth of Jesus. However, in Muhammad's case, it was like every other Arab where nothing significant was recorded.

chakula:

The Holy Qur'an confirms the miraculous birth of
Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question: "O
my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me? The
angel says in reply: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: when He
hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it "Be," and it is!' (Holy Qur'an,
3:47). It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He
merely wills it and it comes into being. This is the Muslim conception of the
birth of Jesus".

The Muslim conception of the birth of anybody has nothing to do with Muhammad in Deuteronomy 18.

chakula:

"Is it true that Jesus was born miraculously as against the natural birth
of Moses and Muhurthmed?": "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses,
but Muhummed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the
Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 "LIKE UNTO THEE" (Like You, Like Moses)
and Muhummed is like Moses."

Yes, Jesus was born miraculously; but Deuteronomy 18 is NOT making a case of how a prophet or anyone is to be born. The verses 15 and 18 in that chapter is more about the raising of a Prophet, and not about how a prophet is born. It is this confusing between the function of a Prophet and the birth of people that deflates your arguments.

chakula:

Marriage Ties
(3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained
a bachelor all his life.is this true?
"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses."

If marrying and begetting children is the criteria for judging that Muhammad was like Moses, there are many other prophets who fitted the description far better than Muhammad.

For instance, Moses had two wives (some believe and interpret as three wives) - unlike Muhammad who had more than 20 wives. Is there a similarity there? Not only so, Moses' wives were not possessed from others - unlike Muhammad's case of having a very young girl (of 9 years old) as his fav wife, besides taking other people's wives as his own . . . how was Muhammad then like unto Moses?

chakula:

How they Departed
4 "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to
Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross. Is this true?"
Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but
Muhummed is like Moses."

There are many prophets who are like unto Moses as far as 'natural deaths' are concerned - so Muhammad dying a 'natural death' does not satisfy the criteria of being like unto Moses.

As far as we know, Muhammad died from pains he suffered from eating poisoned meat from a Jewess, which is not what happened to Moses. According to the "authentic" hadiths (that is, SAHIH hadith) of Bukhari, there are allusions to this fact of how Muhammad died:

[list]What happened ~~
(a)  Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Bk 47, Num. 786:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet
who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was
asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see
the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah's
Apostle .[/list]

[list]What resulted from that poisoning ~~
(b)  Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 5, Bk 59, Num. 713
'Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died,
used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food
I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being
cut from that poison."[/list]

From hadith quoted at (a) above, we know that the poison seriously affected Muhammad; and from hadith (b) above, even Aisha narrated how Muhammad used to experience the pain from the poisoning (remember: "the prophet in his ailment in which he died".

This shows that Muhammad's death was very unlike the death of Moses - for Moses was not poisoned by an Arab, nor by a Jewess: and he lived to see the ripe age of one hundred and twenty (Deut. 34:7), whereas Muhammad died a painful death at 63 years old - just about half the age of Moses .  . . what similarity do you see in that?

chakula:

Heavenly Abode
5 "Moses and Muhummed both lie buried on earth, but according to you,
Jesus rests in heaven. Is this true?": "Therefore
Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

No, that is not true. We know that even though Moses was buried on earth and nobody knows his sepulchre (Deut. 34:6), the man Moses himself does not lie in the dust of the earth. Why? because the same Moses was seen at the mount of Transfiguration in Matthew 17:3 - "And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him". In the same way, after His resurrection, Jesus appeared to his disciples (Mark 16:14).

Please tell me: where did Muhammad ever appear to any of his followers in Islam?

"And this [is] the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran , and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them." (Deuteronomy 33:1)


This is a chronological succession of prophets which is narrated through reference to location. These prophesy is reported at the end of Deuteronomy in association with the story of the death of Prophet Moses (pbuh). It was a blessing and glad tidings bestowed by Prophet Moses upon his followers just prior to his death. It was designed to give his followers hope upon the occasion of the passing of their prophet that God is not abandoning them, rather, the best is yet to come, and He shall continue to bless mankind with His guidance and His light

Sinai is a reference to Moses (pbuh). It is an obvious reference to Mount Sinai where Moses (pbuh) received his revelation (Exodus 19:20).

Seir is a reference to Jesus (pbuh). It is usually associated with the chain of mountains West and South of the Dead Sea extending through Jerusalem , and Bethlehem , the birthplace of Jesus (pbuh). It was later extended to include the mountains on the East side as well (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 783). However, Seir is also identified with the Northern border of the tribal territory of Judah and usually with Saris near Kesla (Chesalon), barely nine miles West of these two cities (The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, by Allen C. Myers, pp. 921-922, and The Interpreter' s Dictionary of the Bible, V4, p. 262) Prophet Moses (pbuh) never in his lifetime entered Palestine, and thus, this could not be a reference to him.

Paran is a reference to the city of Makkah in the Arabian Peninsula . The wilderness of Paran is where Abraham's wife Hagar and his eldest son Ishmael settled (Genesis 21:21) in the Arabian Desert , specifically, Makkah. Makkah is, of course, the capital of Islam in Arabia and the birthplace of Mohammed (pbuh). Mount Paran is the chain of mountains in that same region which the Arabs call the " Sarawat Mountains ". Muhammad (pbuh) received his first revelation in the cave of "Hira'a" located in these mountains. Jesus never in his life traveled to Paran. Mohammed, however, was born there. He became the prophet of Islam there. And it was the capital of the Islamic religion in that day and this. No prophet of the Bible ever came from the Arabian city of Paran (Makkah). Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the only prophet of God who has ever fulfilled this prophesy.

chakula:


"And this [is] the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran , and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them." (Deuteronomy 33:1)


This is a chronological succession of prophets which is narrated through reference to location.

The prophecy in Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18 has nothing to do with a succession of prophets narrated through reference to "location". To twist those verses to make it a matter of "location" is dubious. Instead, the verses are talking about PEOPLE, not location -

[list]Deuteronomy 18:15 - The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;[/list]

[list]Deuteronomy 18:18 - I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.[/list]

It is obvious from the verses above that -

1.   The Prophet was to come from the midst of a particular people - "a Prophet from the midst of thee" - it is not primarily a question of location.

2.   When God mentions "thee" in verse 15 above, it is in reference to Israel - "from the midst of THEE" (ie, from the midst of Israel).

3.   This shows us clearly that the Prophet was to emerge as a ISRAELITE, not an Arabian from the tribe of Quraish.

4.    Again, the primary people (not location) that the Prophet was to serve was Israel - "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee" - that is, 'unto Israel'.

5.    It is evident that Muhammad as an Arab prophet with an Arabic message in the arabic language from an Arab culture pertained and emphasised a ministry to the Arabic people (Quran 12:02). The fact that Muhammad was hostile to the Jews shows again that Deuteronomy 18 does not point to Muhammad as the Prophet from Israel ("from the midst of THEE" who was to be raised up to Israel ("The LORD thy God will raise up unto THEE".

Hence, the question of "location" as a chronology of prophets is a farce even in Islam - for Islam does not make one particular "location" as a reference for all prophets either.

chakula:

Sinai is a reference to Moses (pbuh). It is an obvious reference to Mount Sinai where Moses (pbuh) received his revelation (Exodus 19:20).

Seir is a reference to Jesus (pbuh). It is usually associated with the chain of mountains West and South of the Dead Sea extending through Jerusalem , and Bethlehem , the birthplace of Jesus (pbuh). It was later extended to include the mountains on the East side as well (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 783). However, Seir is also identified with the Northern border of the tribal territory of Judah and usually with Saris near Kesla (Chesalon), barely nine miles West of these two cities (The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, by Allen C. Myers, pp. 921-922, and The Interpreter' s Dictionary of the Bible, V4, p. 262) Prophet Moses (pbuh) never in his lifetime entered Palestine, and thus, this could not be a reference to him.

Paran is a reference to the city of Makkah in the Arabian Peninsula . The wilderness of Paran is where Abraham's wife Hagar and his eldest son Ishmael settled (Genesis 21:21) in the Arabian Desert , specifically, Makkah. Makkah is, of course, the capital of Islam in Arabia and the birthplace of Mohammed (pbuh). Mount Paran is the chain of mountains in that same region which the Arabs call the " Sarawat Mountains ". Muhammad (pbuh) received his first revelation in the cave of "Hira'a" located in these mountains. Jesus never in his life traveled to Paran. Mohammed, however, was born there. He became the prophet of Islam there. And it was the capital of the Islamic religion in that day and this. No prophet of the Bible ever came from the Arabian city of Paran (Makkah). Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the only prophet of God who has ever fulfilled this prophesy.

^^^

That argument from IslamAwareness does not help, especially because it dubiously switches the subjects in Deuteronomy 33:1-2.

1.   Now, when you say:

chakula: Prophet Moses (pbuh) never in his lifetime entered Palestine, and thus, this could not be a reference to him.

. . . what exactly did you mean? If you meant that Muhammad therefore was to come from Palestine, does that not throw out your argument about a chronology o prophets with reference to location (since you quoted "Moses" as never ever having entered Palestine)?

________

2.   When you say:

chakula: No prophet of the Bible ever came from the Arabian city of Paran (Makkah).

. . . does that again not already destroy your argument in regards to what we have already said? Go back to post #7 in this thread where I said:

(a)  "First, Jews do not receive their prophecies from Arabs - which is why that verse in 18:18 clearly points out"

(b)  "and nowhere in the Law is an Arab included in the covenant of the Jews. Muhammad is not one of the Jews, nor could he have been one of their 'brethren' to rise from among them based on that Jewish covenant."

So, for you to have quoted that article from IslamAwareness that "No prophet of the Bible ever came from the Arabian city of Paran (Makkah)" is just unwittingly acknowledging what viaro already said.

Besides, if you read the Bible carefully, you cannot maintain the conclusion that no prophet of the Bible came from Paran. Indeed we find that the same Israelites had once been to Paran themselves in Numbers 12:16 - "And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran."

Yes, Israel had once pitched in Paran, and that is the same place from which Moses once sent out elders - "And Moses by the commandment of the LORD sent them from the wilderness of Paran: all those men were heads of the children of Israel" (Num. 13:3; see also verse 26).

Also, David himself was in Paran at one time in his life - "And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah. And David arose, and went down to the wilderness of Paran" (1 Samuel 25:1).

Dude, the so-called 'choronology' of prophets with reference to location where you concluded that no prophet of the Bible ever came from Paran is a farce - Moses, the children of Israel, and their elders had once pitched their tents in Paran; David also had been to Paran; and it was right from that place that Deut. 33:1-2 reports that God shined forth for Israel.

Bottomline, Muhammad is not an Israelite and could not have emerged from the midst of Israel. As I have noted, not only that no Arab prophet was to emerge from the midst of Israel, but also the Jews do not receive their prophecies from Arabs.

Nice one bros. I agree with all you have said. More grease to your elbows.

nice one chakula, see how u humiliated them

These are the names of the sons of Israel who came to Egypt with Jacob, each with his household: 2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, 3 Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin, 4 Dan and Naphtali, Gad and Asher. 5 All the descendants of Jacob were bseventy persons; Joseph was already in Egypt. 6 Then Joseph died, and all his brothers and all that generation. 7 dBut the people of Israel were fruitful and increased greatly; they multiplied and grew exceedingly strong, so that the land was filled with them

At moses birth,Pharaoh wanted all Hebrew boys killed.Exodus1:15-16.

At christs birth,Herod wanted all Hebrew children killed.Matthew 2:16