annyplenty:

It seems you like making references to some elders as the basis of your posts. who are the elders you always refer us to ask? can you please mention some names. besides that some people you refer us to are elders doesnt not mean they will be an authority on the topic of IFA that we are discussing. the age of methuselah might not have something to do with the wisdom of solomon. I will suggest that if you might want us to take your references so serious, decline from referring us to elders. instead make reference from the words of IFA directly or you quote an history of the religion you might know.

I have answers to all your questions and even some more you have not asked but will like to know the motive behind yor inquisitions before taking you up.

Yoruba history is very complicated and is made even more so by the fact that it has been tampered with for political purposes. (accusing fingers point at the likes of Awolowo although I don't know enough of his shenanigans to join in the accusations) . There is no such thing as a single Yoruba people or a yoruba nation. Apparently the word yoruba is itself a fulani term used to refer to Oyo people. The original name for the language was Anago.
In the 20th century much effort was made to forge a single yoruba identity. Actually many eastern parts of what is today called yoruba fell under the Benin empire including lagos and all the way up to Benin republic and even togo, all the way up to Ghana. Oyo Empire too was widespread and also included peoples that today are not considered yoruba.
So there has been a considerable amount of engineering gone into creating the present yoruba identity. I find the same thing is happening, even today amongst the Igbo people who seem to have found a new militant nationalism. Again, I see strings being pulled here.

There is no faculty of History in any decent university in the world that will accept folktales told by elders as historical proof of anything, especially as the elders often contradict themselves. Such tales would need to be backed up by documents, archaeology, cross references etc. Especially when it comes to the Orisha many things said of them belong to the sphere of myth and not of history.
The claim that Oduduwa and lamurudu came from Mecca for instance, this is obviously a conceit born from the psychological complex towards Islamic religion. Similar to Ijebu people claiming that they were the Jebusites in the bible. Our history is obviously constantly being tampered with. Have you heard that Oduduwa was in actual fact a woman. I find that very credible. There are many references to women ruling yoruba land very early in it's history. There are many societies in which royal succession was matrilinear and Yoruba show many signs of having that in it's history. Patriarchy seems very new to the land. Especially when we consider the kind of power that was wielded by the Iyalodes traditionally.

I think that Mowire's mention of a commission to find out the connection between Ela and Jesus could be yet another manifestation of that complex that led people to state that Oduduwa came from Mecca. Obviously there is a complex towards christianity now and so some people are trying to contrive a connection with christianity. I have no doubt that the research they will do will be extremely dubious to say the least, yet if they get the pr right their conclusion might eventually become an accepted fact.

Ifa is lies and demons. Communing with unclean spirits and eating all kinds of unclean goop.

If yu love yur soul stay away from it. It destroys homes.

ifele:

Ifa is lies and demons. Communing with unclean spirits and eating all kinds of unclean goop.

If yu love yur soul stay away from it. It destroys homes.

So where are your proofs and evidences to support your claim?

Interesting topic. I am an African American who has reaffirmed who i am living in the Diaspora. I am living in Atlanta, Ga Usa. I have come into the awareness of who and what my great ancestors were all about. I never ever really accepted Christianity in full. I always asked the question i wonder what people that look like me was doing and why aren't people who look like me not the center of worship. Only by the grace of the almighty creator was i saved from ignorance. I have prayed for the day when we will wake up and it is really starting to happen. There are great problems among our people here in America. The way we are acting black on black crime could incarcerate a whole generation of black men especially with the economic situation that is going on in this country. Divorce rates are high. There is always tension. I hear in Africa you can have more than one wife. That tension exists here because some brothers still have a wife and another women. There need to be from my opinion a culture exchange and meeting. We need Africans who can teach us our native tongues. There are many of us who have returned to the nile valley. Great educational scholars teaching the great history of Africa. Egypt in particular. I would like to reach out to you all to visit my website www.d-caravan.com. It makes me feel good to see those who hold on to our way of worshiping.

ifele:

Ifa is lies and demons. Communing with unclean spirits and eating all kinds of unclean goop.

If yu love yur soul stay away from it. It destroys homes.

It is exactly these kind of baseless utterances that are fuelling the ever more aggressive rise of atheism. If someone is just prepared to open his mouth and fart without back up then it makes sense that God will be so reviled to send a new army of Nebuchadnezzars to destroy them.

annyplenty:

It seems you like making references to some elders as the basis of your posts. who are the elders you always refer us to ask? can you please mention some names. besides that some people you refer us to are elders doesnt not mean they will be an authority on the topic of IFA that we are discussing. the age of methuselah might not have something to do with the wisdom of solomon. I will suggest that if you might want us to take your references so serious, decline from referring us to elders. instead make reference from the words of IFA directly or you quote an history of the religion you might know.

I thought you will understand that reference to elders in this kind of thread will mean those who had been practising ifa (or any other yoruba traditional religion) before you. Custodians of the tradition/culture.

annyplenty:

the age of methuselah might not have something to do with the wisdom of solomon.

I don't see how that will apply in this case. Except you want to start a revolution and reinvention of the religion. (An ifa protestant group will be interesting to look out for )

annyplenty:

I have answers to all your questions and even some more you have not asked but will like to know the motive behind yor inquisitions before taking you up.

Not all yet.

Pastor AIO:

(accusing fingers point at the likes of Awolowo although I don't know enough of his shenanigans to join in the accusations).

Off the mark again! Awolowo cannot be refered to as an elder in this matter. The man was a rosicrucian and christian not and was not known to be an ifa adherent (not even a religious researcher)

What I referred you to the "elders" for is the history of the likes of sango, ogun (a drunkard king turned god), even sonpanna. This were not gods anything (according to Yoruba history, untwisted).

mowire. . . with all due respect you have contributed nothing to this discussion.

You know nothing and are so full of yourself you wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you across the face and took a sh!t in your mouth. I guess I can say this with a clear conscience. . Go Fukc yourself!!! . no one here is impressed!!!

Krayola:

mowire. . . with all due respect you have contributed nothing to this discussion.

Abeg don't bother yourself with the guy. How do you want to discuss with someone who lacks the most basic comprehension skills? I don't know how he understood what I had to say about Awolowo and the forging of a yoruba identity to refer to his nonsense about elders and orisha in history. Perhaps his conceit is so extreme that he believes everything is referring to him and his posts.

Moving swiftly on . . .

You wanted to know the meaning of Ogbe. Ifa makes a lot of word play with different phonetic sounds and so a word can be made to mean many different things. Ogbe can therefore mean salvation, and it can mean to support, or to carry. So the statement Eji ni m'ogbe, mi o gbe enikan can be translated as I save in couples and not individuals. It can also mean I support couples not individuals.

The Second Olodu is called Oyeku Meji. This is where Oyeku is on the right side and oyeku is on the left side too. While Ogbe rules over the daytime OYeku rules over the night. Oyeku is associated with water, rain, death and movement/change. A lot of references are made to Olokun (diety of the sea). The syllable ye- in yoruba suggests to shift, to budge, to change. Iku is death which is itself a major transition.
Like I said above about word play Oyeku verses can mention things like the Sun's rays (oye in yoruba). For instance:

Iwo o ye, Emi o ye
you don't budge, I don't budge
Oye sese nlaa bo l'oke, won se b'ojumo ni nmo
Aurora has only just begun to rip through the heaven, but they thought day had fully broken. (reference to the brightness of early dawn, as bright as sunrise)
A difa fun Eji Oye
Thus was divined for Eji Oye
Ti o t'oju orun la w'aye bi obereke.
who from the face of heaven tears through to earth like cotton buds.
Nje owo lo ba nwu mi o, mo wi
Is it money I desire, I'll mention it
Eji Oye: Ifa ni o ye ire t'emi fun mi
Eji Oye, Ifa says shift my fortune to me
Aya lo ba nwu mi o, Mo wi
Is it a wife I desire, I mention it
Eji Oye: Ifa ni o ye ire t'emi fun mi
Eji Oye, Ifa says shift my fortune to me
Gbogbo ire to ba nwu mi o, Mo wi
Every fortune I desire, I'll mention it
Eji Oye: Ifa ni o ye ire t'emi fun mi
Eji Oye, Ifa says shift my fortune to me


Another word play that Ifa makes great use of is with the word La. Ola is wealth. Ela is salvation. La a is to split or to open up. So when your road is blocked then ifa can promise to La ona. Open the road. When for instance a verse says Owu la, the cotton bud splits open, it also means that the cotton was saved, and it also means that the cotton became wealthy and all the meanings apply in a verse.

Krayola:

mowire. . . with all due respect you have contributed nothing to this discussion.

Very nice (ref: bold words)

Krayola:

Go Fukc yourself!!! .  no one here is impressed!!!

What contradiction. (Tells a lot about your character)
How "juvenile" you are is made very obvious, my student friend.

Krayola:

no one here is impressed!!

Yet again I say: Not all readers are contributing to this thread. Anyway I did not set out to impress anybody, rather I wanted answers to question are pertinent to the majority of Yorubas who do not agree with/understand/wants to know (what) the ifa/orisa religion

I thought that those who are adherents of that religion, who know all that it involves (and that obviously does not include you Krayola) will gladly answer those questions, that I asked, and any other question on areas that easily cast aspersions on the ifa/orisa religion convincingly.

Any reasonable Yoruba man (African, for that matter), would like to know why he should follow/practice the religion of our fore fathers. Most of these people that have been referred to in this thread as misled know far more about christianity/islam than they know about this religion of Yorubas/Africans; all that is well known (not what is written) are the evil practices involved in this religions that are being potrayed as the better choice for them than the ones they presently adhere to.

You, Krayola, obviously do not possibly understand why your parents prefer christianity to the Yoruba religions, or any other religion in the world (I hold nothing against your quest for religious knowledge).

Most of us know very well that the practice of human sacrifice is still part of the Yoruba oro festivals, and ifa priests have always been part of these festivals. They still are!

In the face of this, answering the questions I asked would have probably shown the light in the ifa/orisa religion. If there is any.

As for all these notion that this thread is about world religion: I think people should go and read tega's initial post.

People should be ready to answer questions so that everyone will know what our traditional religions have to offer. Then we will all know if the "westerners" who are now attracted to the religions have any real substance to pursue or they are just being misled by the same instinct that has led a large number of them into bestialty (an abomination in Yoruba land).

Every religion has its nonsense. I can write you a very long post about the "evils" of Christianity, but that is pointless.

Evil is a relative term. . . human sacrifice is wrong, but so is torture and forced conversion, slavery and the destruction of cultures and civilizations around the world, by christian authorities, in the name of the Christian God. . . the same people that brought us this Christianity that we embrace so eagerly.

There is no such thing as one true religion, and anyone who looks at religions as if there is some form of hierarchy where one is superior to the other or one has a more relevant "truth" is missing the point.

Now my last post was me letting you know my opinion of you. YOu made several posts on this thread that suggested that the people who come here to share whatever knowledge they have, however misguided you might feel it is, have some kind of ulterior motive and are misleading people by trying to glamorize a tradition that you find appalling. But that says more about u and your biases than it says about the people that have been posting here.

I have asked a lot of questions and I have received answers. . whether or not i agree with the answers is one thing, i do my own investigation, but i never suggest the people that spend their time sharing what they know are somehow trying to deceive me, or just peddling wrong info. . any religious person that assumes to know peoples motives is a phony. There is a reason why Christ asks us not to judge, but that seems to be all that you are concerned with and no one here is going to put up with that.

Krayola:

Every religion has its nonsense. I can write you a very long post about the "evils" of Christianity, but that is pointless.

Not only is it pointless but it has been done to death on Nairaland. We have a whole army of Nebuchadnezzars already doing that.

A valid point that He has raised though is the fact that Ifa might be being fiddled to fit in with a certain agenda. But hey, wait a minute, is this not true of absolutely anything. The minute anyone opens their mouth to say anything it is most likely they have an agenda or at least an effect that they are trying to achieve. That might or might not be obvious from what they are saying. For this reason it is very important to be very critical and astute when listening to what anyone has to say.

Check out this new thread by Huxley:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-279466.0.html

I have no doubt that their are strong reasons why our parents turned away from traditional religions to embrace christianity and islam, but I don't think those reasons have much to do with Truth. Colonialism, inferiority complex, opportunism as they were faced with the 'brave new world' presented by arabs and europeans, and many other reasons, would be closer to why they converted.

I'm not into promoting any religious form over another but I have an interest in all religious forms. I'm especially interested in the religious views of African societies. You are right that every religion has it's nonsense and Ifa/orisha religions are not exceptions. They are a tool to dominate people, prop up social systems, Kings, chiefs etc. Yet there are awos that are not involved in social politics and chieftaincy titles and all that. They just practice their awo in their personal lives, and leave others to vie for the Oluwo, Ojugbona, Aseda, Akoda and other titles.

To address the OP, I don't believe that religion should be a matter of identity. Rather, as Jagunlabi put it in his thread on Ego, I believe that religion should result in the dissolution of all false identities.

And on the topic of human sacrifice Jehovah accepts human sacrifice well well. Ask Huxley to acquaint you on the topic.

Krayola:

Every religion has its nonsense. I can write you a very long post about the "evils" of Christianity, but that is pointless.

Evils of Christianity or of christians

Krayola:

Evil is a relative term. . . human sacrifice is wrong, but so is torture and forced conversion, slavery and the destruction of cultures and civilizations around the world, by christian authorities, in the name of the Christian God. . . the same people that brought us this Christianity that we embrace so eagerly.

Sincerely (or is it Objectively), are these part of christian doctrine or that of the their main symbol of reverence, Jesus? My answer is no. If you think I'm wrong (or biased) go read their scripture (the Bible) over again and see if there is a single place where he (Jesus), or any of the Apostles ever taught forced conversion and all such as you have mentioned. In the contrary I read of instruction to disciples to vacate any place where they are not welcomed.

Those who " brought us this Christianity that we embrace so eagerly" as you called them were more of businessmen than missionaries. There were really only very few christian missionaries (my opinion?).

I referred to practices that are part and parcel of a religious practice then and now.

Krayola:

Now my last post was me letting you know my opinion of you. YOu made several posts on this thread that suggested that the people who come here to share whatever knowledge they have, however misguided you might feel it is, have some kind of ulterior motive and are misleading people by trying to glamorize a tradition that you find appalling. But that says more about u and your biases than it says about the people that have been posting here.

Strictly your opinion though. However let me state that I did not at any time state that anyone came into this thread with a motive to mislead anybody (though there might indeed have been). I don't know where you (and Pastor) got that from.

When I wrote about the treachery in the PATH of religious/spritual researches/inquiries I did not have the limited resources avilable on this thread in mind (I in fact did not refer to it at all). That path/field is far beyond this thread and that you know.

Even at that I did not, in any of my post, discourage studying/investigating any religion. I will, in fact, not. I only stated the things inherent on the way. I don't know where you got your own deductions from

Krayola:

I have asked a lot of questions and I have received answers. . whether or not i agree with the answers is one thing, i do my own investigation, but i never suggest the people that spend their time sharing what they know are somehow trying to deceive me, or just peddling wrong info. . any religious person, that assumes to know peoples motives is a phony. There is a reason why Christ asks us not to judge, but that seems to be all that you are concerned with and no one here is going to put up with that.

I'm almost forced to say "ikan ni kaun" you and pastor.

Pastor AIO:

And on the topic of human sacrifice Jehovah accepts human sacrifice well well. Ask Huxley to acquaint you on the topic.

I won't bother . I have seen some of the fellow's post: he's too passionate about his atheism (and anti christianity), to be objective enough to point out the most obvious reasoning on the bible passages he quotes.

Mowire:

Evils of Christianity or of christians

It is laughable to hear such a distinction being made.  Especially from the very same fellow that has just denounced Ifa based on the the involvement of babalawos in Oro ceremonies.  If an 'evil' babalawo means that Ifa is 'evil' then shouldn't evil christians mean that christianity is evil too. You have to judge everybody on their own terms. Jesus said: By their fruits ye shall know them.

Mowire:

Sincerely (or is it Objectively), are these part of christian doctrine or that of the their main symbol of reverence, Jesus? My answer is no. If you think I'm wrong (or biased) go read their scripture (the Bible) over again and see if there is a single place where he (Jesus), or any of the Apostles ever taught forced conversion and all such as you have mentioned. In the contrary I read of instruction to disciples to vacate any place where they are not welcomed.

Likewise you need to quote the Ifa verses that promote human sacrifice.  Or any teachings of Orunmila that allow human sacrifice.

Those who " brought us this Christianity that we embrace so eagerly" as you called them were more of businessmen than missionaries. There were really only very few christian missionaries (my opinion?).

This is just another one of those holier than thou stances that many christians take against each other.  Keep judging yourself as to who is a true christian o!  Afterall Jesus said Judge that you may be judged, abi?

I had my very first Ifa divinition-it was an eyeopener-I couldnt belive how accurate it was-I too have been questioning why Blacks abroad seem to tune in to Ifa and now I know why Unesco in 2005 added the Ifa divinition to its Masterpiece list. I will return to do ebo Im excited ! I live in the US by the way raised in Nigeria.

Im tired of sitting back while my mates are going behind the scene's benefitting from our indigenous religions that truly work.

PEPSI:

I had my very first Ifa divinition-it was an eyeopener-I couldnt belive how accurate it was-I too have been questioning why Blacks abroad seem to tune in to Ifa and now I know why Unesco in 2005 added the Ifa divinition to its Masterpiece list. I will return to do ebo Im excited ! I live in the US by the way raised in Nigeria.

Im tired of sitting back while my mates are going behind the scene's benefitting from our indigenous religions that truly work.

What Odu came out for you? I'm curious about what was said that was said that impressed you so much.

I don't know why, instead of reciting good Ifa, you go on and on about fantasy. NASA using Ifa? please show your evidence. It is not good to lie in the name of Ifa. Ifa is truth. Ifa does not need such embellishments, even if your intentions are earnest.

So, everything in the world that is binary will be accredited to Ifa? Everything based on the number 16 too?

No. That is wrong. For something to be from odufa, you must show me the recitiation of oluwo, the client, the problem, the ebo and whether it was performed or not.

If you want to credit all binary mathematics to Ifa, then you are on a self defeating mission. You will do more harm than good.

@ Pastor and every other priest,
When I was young I was initiated into having orunmila, then I criticized it like a dirty kind of practice as it entails the killing of live animals for sacrice, now I,m grown up and a graduate, I will really love to learn details so I can become a good Ifa priest as there is scacity of Priest in my region at the moment, I,ll be glad if you can assist me with adequate info on how to learn this practice so well, here is my email osazeet@yahoo.com
We Africans believe in spirituality of magic/miracle and prophesy.

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGahxAVulCU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"[/flash]

hi exultant to be here

this is the best thread i have ever read on nairaland

pls let keep this thread alive, educating and enlightening

Aboru aboye
Ela ro wa Ela ro wa Ela ro wa
Orunmila ro wa Bara mi
Agbonmiregun bara elesin oyan
Ojo lu gbedu orun giri

OTURUPON-OWONRIN says:

Ifa ni ti a ba ji
Ogbon ni ki a ma ko ara wa
Ka ma ji ni kutukutu
Ka pile were
Ohun ti a ba ro
Ti ko ba gun
Ikin eni laa kee sii,


Ifa says whenever we wake up
It is wisdom we should be teaching each other
We should not wake up up at dawn
and lay the foudation of foolishness
whatever we deliberate upon
which can not be resolved
There is the need to consult Ikin,

Ela boru Ela boye Ela bosise,

http://iletuntun.com/images/3%20tablero%20de%20ifa%20iwori%20meji.jpg

After Eji Ogbe and Oyeku Meji the third Odu is Iwori Meji.  While Eji Ogbe and Oyeku meji rule the day and night respectively Iwori Meji combines both energies.  Ogbe is signed by making 4 single line marks
I
I
I
I

while Oyeku is signed by making 4 double line marks
II
II
II
II.

 Iwori Meji is signed by making a combination of double and single line marks.  
II
I
I
II

Iwori has the power to see into the world of day as well as the world or Night.  Iwori as such is the Seer.  The prophet, the diviner and the wise man.  It is Iwori that is appealed to to look into one's affairs or to look over one protectively.

Eni a ba wa la a ba rele
One we came with is the one we'll return with
Eni aja ba wa l'aja ba lo
One that the dog came with is the one that the dog with return with
A difa fun eji koko iwori ti o te oju akapo re giri giri
Is divined for double knot Iwori that fixes his gaze on his disciples unflinchingly
Ifa teju mo mi ko wo mi re
Ifa fix your gaze and me and look at me well
Eji koko iwori oju ti o fi n sho mi ma ma fi sun
Double knot iwori, the eyes you're using to look at me, don't use them to sleep.  

This verse is rendered here.
[flash=200,200]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLNWvGwKlWI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"[/flash]

Iwori is also what binds the world together in harmony.  The disparate energies of male and female and combined harmoniously.  According to Ifa this binding is necessary for procreation.  That is why it is called Eji koko, double knot.  That is something that has been bound firmly. 

Pa bi osan ja
Pa like the snapping of a rope
Osan ja, awoo won lode Itori
The broken rope, the awo of the town of Itori
Akatanpo jakun o dobiiri kale
The gun dismantled and scattered on the floor
A difa fun Orunmila
Was divined for orunmila
Ifa nlee taye oluufe oro so
when Ifa was going to mend the world of the lovers of conflict
Bi eni ti nsogba
Like one mends a broken calabash
Ta ni o waa bi ni tayee wa wonyi so
Who will help us mend this our broken world
Ewe opepe tile so
The leaves of a palmtree can bind
Orunmila ni o waa ba ni tayee wa wonyi so
Ewe opepe tile so
Orunmila will help one mend the broken world
The leaves of the palm can bind
Ifa ni o o waa ba ni tayee wa wonyi so
Ewe opepe tile so
Ifa will help us mend the broken world
The leaves of the palm can bind
Baraapetu ni o o waa ba ni tayee wa wonyi so
Ewe Opepe tile so
Baraapetu will help us mend the broken world
the leaves of the palm can bind. 

I hadn't seen this before; very fascinating thread.

Pastor AIO
E nle mbeun oo. Wetin you dey do for awo shrine. I thought you be PASTOR. Abi na Ifa pastor?

Pastor AIO
E nle mbeun oo. Wetin you dey do for awo shrine. I thought you be PASTOR. Abi na Ifa pastor?

So pastor no fit know anytin about Awo. anyway, ka bo o!

interesting thread pastor aio do u have yahoo mail would like to ask you some questions

my email is akin101@ymail

@Akin101,
Alas I don't exchange private emails with people on Nairaland as a matter of policy. I've only flouted this law once before because I found the prospect of listening to a series of lectures on St. Paul much too enticing.

However, in the spirit of mutual learning and exchange I would suggest that you air your questions here on the forum so that we can all learn from perusing the matter. If it is of a personal nature at least you know that no one here knows you in real life so your anonymity is safe.


@All, I thought that Idinrete and/or Annyplenty would have contributions to make on Iwori meji. Or maybe some people have some thoughts on it. I guess people aren't as interested in the thread as I've been led to believe.

Aboru aboye

IWORI MEJI Says:

Kekenke lawo kekenke
Gegenge lawo gegenge
Adifa fun Orimonike
Omo Atorun gbegbe Aje
Keke wale aye
Ifa ma ke'mi niso
Ori ma ke'mi niso
Olodumare ma ke'mi niso
Gege la nke eyin adie


Kekenke(to be favoured) is the Awo of Kekenke
Gegenge(to be pampered) is the Awo of gegenge
They were the ones who cast Ifa for Orimonike
Who had the support of Ori from heaven
Ifa, please continue to favour me
Ori, please continue to favour me
Olodumare, please continu to favour me
Tenderly and with care do we gather the eggs laid by fowls,


Favours shall be ours Asee Edumare

Ela boru Ela boye Ela bosise
Ogbo Ato Asure Ela Iworiwfun

ha pastor some people know me here o
I wanted to ask a queston about the ifa odu's
are they real as in can it foretell the kind of life a man/woman will live
what they mean to an individual
what are the do's and donts that come with each one
i might be jumping the gun here but can someone tell me more about the following odu's
irete meji and Ogbe alara also called Ogbe itura and Ofun Meji