@op
Even the disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ doubted His Lordship.
They were with Him 3 and half years,saw all the miracles He performed,when He Resurrected they still did not believe untill they saw Him with there own eyes.
Christ said to everyone of them through Thomas"Because you have seen Me,you have believed;BLESSED are those who have not seen and yet have believed,(Jhn20:29).
Question is,why would they not believe after been with Him for 3 and half years?;they were all born of the blood,of flesh and the will of a man(Jhn1:13).they inherited the Adamic nature.its impossible to believe and understand the the things of the spirit,without a regenerated spirit.within the capacities of this new spirit,there's a faculty of Divine knowledge and understanding.
Apostle Paul intellectul power was not that which gave him his knowledge of Truth;but it(human intellect)was taken up by the spirit for passing that Truth on to others.he recieved his Gospel by Revelation.
Just like the disciples,you cant believe unless there's a quickening within you.

i.chuka:

@jesoul
Reasoning primary had no place in the things of God.

My dear brother (or is it sister?) this is one of the most unfortunate quotes I have heard a christian say! Let me explain . . .

The Apostle Paul makes it very clear that the secret of everything in his life and service was the fact that he recieved his Gospel"by Revelation".we may even know the Bible most perfectly as a book,and yet be spiritually dead and ineffective.when the Scriptures say so much about the knowledge of God and of the truth as the basis of Eternal Life,resulting in being set free,doing exploits,etc.it also affirm that man cannot by searching find out God(Job11:7).
A rich knowledge of the Scriptures,an accurate technical grasp of Christain doctrine,the,doing of Christain work by all the resources of men's natural wisdom or ability,a clever manipulation and interesting presentation of the Bible content and themes,won't get one WHIT beyond the natural life of men,and still remain within the realm of spiritual death.we cant be argued,REASONED,fascinated,willed,entrused,impassioned,into the Kingdom of Heavens,we can only be born,and thats by spiritual quickening.(Jhn3:3,5).this new birth brings with it new Capacities of every kind,the most vital is a new and different faculty of Divine Knowledge,understanding and apprehension,though our brain is not ruled out,but its secondary,not primary.the function of our natural intellect is to give spiritual things intelligent form for ourselves and for others.
God says,"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways My ways"(Ish55:.the measure of the difference is as the height of the Heavens from the Earth,of the Heavenly from the Earthly.
One of the chief lessons that we have to learn,is that spiritual ends demands spiritual means.
Cheers!

You are not wrong in asserting things of the spirit must be grasped by a spiritually attuned mind . . . but you are missing a key component. When the gospel is preached to a man, how can he understand it let alone accept it? since according to you he doesn't have a spiritual mind? It is the Holy Spirit that does the prodding - and a man's heart that does the accepting - and then he becomes transformed. Having a 'spiritual mind' is not a prerequisite to being saved.

What Paul is teaching is about the more deeper mysteries of God & our faith and the absolute need to approach with a spiritually drenched mind in order to grasp them. Cheers friend.

tpia@:

this seems like one of those merry go round threads.

poster, if you dont believe in the notion of karma ie seedtime and harvest, or in a future judgement, then there's no need to ask pointless questions imo.

do you understand the fact that matter can not be created or destroyed, but can only change form?

Pointless.
Did you just wake up from sleep?
Same thing again and again. So if i do not believe so and so, I cannot understand so and so? So My questions are pointless?
That means you have no answer.
Big laugh.

JeSoul:

My dear brother (or is it sister?) this is one of the most unfortunate quotes I have heard a christian say! Let me explain . . .
You are not wrong in asserting things of the spirit must be grasped by a spiritually attuned mind . . . but you are missing a key component. When the gospel is preached to a man, how can he understand it let alone accept it? since according to you he doesn't have a spiritual mind? It is the Holy Spirit that does the prodding - and a man's heart that does the accepting - and then he becomes transformed. Having a 'spiritual mind' is not a prerequisite to being saved.

What Paul is teaching is about the more deeper mysteries of God & our faith and the absolute need to approach with a spiritually drenched mind in order to grasp them. Cheers friend.

I agree with you there.
I think people the words " spirit and spiritual" rather carelessly.
To escape simple arguments or questions, they take cover under spiritual this and spiritual that. I think the average christian is the least knowledgeable about spiritual issues compared to other religions. Especially among Nigerians, we tend to interchange things superstitious with things spiritual.
I have found that the judeo christian religions, Christianity, Islam and Judaism all have two layers, the inner core and outer shell. Even Jesus alluded to that when he told his inner disciples that he would give parables to those who had limited understanding, and would reveal the truth to those of his inner circle.
It is my opinion that the inner core of the christian message was lost during the early years of the roman takeover of the new religion, or ,has been hidden by those who feel that there is not much to profit from it.

i.chuka:

@op
Even the disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ doubted His Lordship.
They were with Him 3 and half years,saw all the miracles He performed,when He Resurrected they still did not believe untill they saw Him with there own eyes.
Christ said to everyone of them through Thomas"Because you have seen Me,you have believed;BLESSED are those who have not seen and yet have believed,(Jhn20:29).
Question is,why would they not believe after been with Him for 3 and half years?;they were all born of the blood,of flesh and the will of a man(Jhn1:13).they inherited the Adamic nature.its impossible to believe and understand the the things of the spirit,without a regenerated spirit.within the capacities of this new spirit,there's a faculty of Divine knowledge and understanding.
Apostle Paul intellectul power was not that which gave him his knowledge of Truth;but it(human intellect)was taken up by the spirit for passing that Truth on to others.he recieved his Gospel by Revelation.
Just like the disciples,you cant believe unless there's a quickening within you.

So we must drink the potion of faith to come into new understanding?
Isnt that like saying that faith creates delusions of grandeur?
How much does it cost?
(just joking)
What exactly is your point?

@judek2:
In your post you used the word "destroyed", not punnished. I was just pointing out to you that your god did not destroy famous biblical sinners like david, solomon, joshua,jacob, etc, He rather glorified them.
Also, you hav eur biblical passages mixed up. Sodom and gomorrah were not destroyed by flood.
And by the way, what was the sins Of Sodom and gomorrah, and Jericho? So any nation destroyed by war is an act of god?
Im sorry , but this your forgiveness and cleansing thing is balderdash. makes no sense. God forgives but does not cleanse?. Which diety was jesus sacrificed to and by whom? Is blood sacrifce a physical thing or spiritual. How does the physical blood sacrifice of a human being please god? That whole tale just doesn't add up.
santa clause flying from the north pole to give children gifts on chrismas day seem to make better sense.
Stll does not answer what sin of mine jesus supposed died for 2000yrs ago.
You portray your god as some kind of celestial tyrant who punishes people for the misdeeds of others and who demands human sacrifice for atonement. Sounds much like the dieties of some primitive societies.

Plaetton, I was contructing my reply to you before I got distracted earlier

plaetton:

@jesoul:
Insightful and articulate. But I disagree on most of your assertions.

Infact, I.chuka ha just contradicted you that "reason primarily has no place in the things of god".

Indeed he did and I hope my above quote has shed some light on our difference.

What I meant in my previous post is that everyone says the same thing: I need faith or more faith to understand biblical scripture. In other words, I need to first drink the potion of faith and then see things in a diferent way.

On point & exactly what I just addressed in my post to chuka.

I have dislike for religion because I think its irrational. Perhaps i do not know the definition of faith. Or are there different meanings for each person?

Oh! my friend there are diverse conceptions of God & faith as there are people. Which is why it is so sketchy to derive ones understanding from what other people have told them.

If we were to look at a strictly biblical definition/description of what faith is - you will quickly see that it is anything but ¹blind, ²irrational, ³purposeless & ⁴contradicts reason. So when you say this below:

Faith, to me, means" I dont know and may not want to know or understand, but I accept".

it shows the many problems with your understanding of what faith - the biblical one - really is. Let me borrow from hollywood to make my point.

 Ever seen the movie Triple X? Starring Ice Cube & Samuel L Jones? In the begining of the movie is a jail break. Ice cube takes out the guards with his crazy marshal arts skills, races through the building and heads towards the rooftoop. As he runs across the roof, he's running full speed towards the edge and its obvious he's about to jump off a 10-storey building. Obviously suicide right? but wait he has a belief (aka faith) he is not going to die because his faith is not ¹blind, ²irrational, ³purposeless & ⁴contradicts reason.

  He has a knowledge that no one else does, that at 2:33pm on that tuesday, a helicopter would be hovering behind the taller adjacent building, and was going to fly around the corner at that exact moment, such that when he jumps, he is going to be able to grasp the ladder they have let down in anticipation of his jump - thereby allowing him to survive an otherwise suicidal jump.

Faith is not ¹blind - he knew where he was going and why. He had a knowledge that no one else did and he acted on that knowledge
Faith is not ²irrational -  heading to the roof of a maximum security prison in an effort to escape was ridiculous to everyone else but himself
Faith is not ³purposeless - his goal was to escape, not just go for a nice run on the roof
Faith does not ⁴contradict reason - all of his actions contradicted 'reason' to those who did not know what he knew. What is "reasonable" is relative to each person - based on their experience & knowledge.

So when you say -

Faith lies on the fringes of rational thinking.

I respond by saying - not by a long shot brother .

It is faith that makes people give money to others without asking: a. when did god appoint you to collect money on his behalf?

Au contraire - it is ignorance borne from poverty that is fed by greed - that's not faith according to the bible. And the rest of your quote below:

b. are you sending the money to god or what are you doing with the money on behalf of god? ,and c. why are  you living large on god's money?.
Faith is about accepting things that seem irrational. How do you equate faith with reason? both cannot co-exist, That is why religion, over the past 200yrs so, has taken a back seat to reason. Anyone that says that they have both faith and reason is in a temporary transition mode.

I am very glad you used the word "seem" . . . revert back to Triple X, much of what he did seemed irrational and ridiculous - to everyone but him. Faith is a kind of evidence - it is not the absence of it. It is just that the knowledge of that evidence is not always & easily transferrable to someone else - especially in spiritual matters.

  Does faith sometimes contradict reason? yes & no. My faith may contradict your 'reason' but not my 'reason' - because I have in my possession a knowledge that you do not - as I said before, reason is relative to each person my friend. Cheerios .

JeSoul:

Au contraire - it is ignorance borne from poverty that is fed by greed - that's not faith according to the bible. And the rest of your quote below:

Strong underlying factors, these. Faith gives the push. You know, sometimes these factors are not even present. I seriously doubt you can take faith out of it.

MeJow hope its been sunshine & gravy

MyJoe:

Strong underlying factors, these. Faith gives the push. You know, sometimes these factors are not even present. I seriously doubt you can take faith out of it.

  Ah! but I would immediately argue there is no faith at all! it is sharply missing as it is lacking the primary ingredient necessary to constitute any of it as faith - biblical faith that is. What we have are conmen that have hijacked a conceptual boat - stripped it beyond recognition, changed the lightings, fixtures & engine - replacing it with their own determinations & specifications. And now they ferry around, picking up desperate & ignorant passengers, promising to take them to a destination that they themselves have no directions to as their compass spins in only one direction - greed. Ah, that is not faith - that is foolishness.

^ I have liked the quote below from the minute I first saw it.

violent:

I have always maintained that if you give 10 percent of your money to a church/pastor who owns a Jet, while millions of people die of starvation in east africa, what you are practising is NOT Christianity, it's called idiocy!

^

. . . what you are practising is NOT Christianity, it's called idiocy!

Lol. Honestly quite apt for many of the prevalent 'doctrines' flying around in christendom these days.

plaetton:

@judek2:
In your post you used the word "destroyed", not punnished. I was just pointing out to you that your god did not destroy famous biblical sinners like david, solomon, joshua,jacob, etc,  He rather glorified them.
Also, you hav eur biblical passages mixed up. Sodom and gomorrah were not destroyed by flood.
And by the way, what was the sins Of Sodom and gomorrah, and Jericho? So any nation destroyed by war is an act of god?
Im sorry , but this your forgiveness and cleansing thing is balderdash. makes no sense. God forgives but does not cleanse?. Which diety was jesus sacrificed to and by whom? Is blood sacrifce a physical thing or spiritual. How does the physical blood sacrifice of a human being please god? That whole tale just doesn't add up.
santa clause flying from the north pole to give children gifts on chrismas day seem to make better sense.
Stll does not answer what sin of mine jesus supposed died for 2000yrs ago.
You portray your god as some kind of celestial tyrant who punishes people for the misdeeds of others and who demands human sacrifice for atonement. Sounds much like the dieties of some primitive societies.

A person who needs answer on maybe something that he does not understand or something that confuses him,needs to be sincere to ones who are trying to provide the answer.
Why do you leave the main aim of your question and focused on common issiues which you points out.
What happens to one who does not repent then,are they not destroyed?
The point i'm trying to carve out is that punishments where faced directly by offenders from God.As you can see that nobody goes free.The point of destruction is those that did not repent.

Another,your point on Sodom and Gomorrah.that wasnt even the base of your question.Whats the point if i misquote its destruction either with Fire,Brimstone or Flood.My point is,they were destroyed.

Now,it seems that the person that seeks the answer is starting to freak out.
You say that my explanation on the Forgiveness and Cleansing is Baldardash. Thank you .But i tell you,it makes lots of sence to those who realy know what answers they need.You are not sure of yourself.

I wont be suprised if you say the same to the highest knowledgeable person who will try to explain it to you because you dont know what you want.You realy are not ready to listen,but to argue.Therefore blocking your ears to the explanations provided to you.

I strongly believe that i have in details splitly explained the answer to your question to you,its now your duty to read with understand,or read with biased mind. I doubt if you realy want the answer or just your stand to argue.

Goodluck on searching for the answer that suits your taste.

@judek2.
Thanks and I appreciate for your contributions. But I do reserve the rigth to respond and ask questions when necessary. Sincerely, I do not feel that you have answered any questions , not because i do not want to learn, but because i want to learn something that makes sense in plain language. If in the prcocess of answering a question, you make unsubstantiated claims, i cannot allow you to get away with it.
I do not buy this idea that you have to open up your mind to faith before you can understand something so simple. faith, as i have seen so far, is complicated. Its an enigma. Every question that i asked you are relevant. You can go and write volumes about the blood of Jesus cleansing my sin, but, If from childhood to adulthood, I still cannot get it, then something is wrong either with my brain or the story.
In the my village, the oracle priest would sacrifice animals to appease a local diety. That is what comes to my mind. If such was the case in with jesus, how does sacrificing him to his father(odd?) cleanse the sin of generations yet unborn?
And what exactly was that sin that he is atoning for ?

Anyway, my questions were abt the cleansing of sin by jesus, the forgiveness of sins by prayer and then final judgment of sins. I.chuka has said that are several categories of sins. Do you agree with him? It is confusing.

@JeSoul
Things are good here. Thanks. You?

Just so I know I'm understanding you, can you please describe the "primary ingredient that constitutes" biblical faith?

Double post.

JeSoul:

MeJow hope its been sunshine & gravy
 Ah! but I would immediately argue there is no faith at all! it is sharply missing as it is lacking the primary ingredient necessary to constitute any of it as faith - biblical faith that is. What we have are conmen that have hijacked a conceptual boat - stripped it beyond recognition, changed the lightings, fixtures & engine - replacing it with their own determinations & specifications. And now they ferry around, picking up desperate & ignorant passengers, promising to take them to a destination that they themselves have no directions to as their compass spins in only one direction - greed. Ah, that is not faith - that is foolishness.

I hope I can get your permission to copy and reproduce this quote. This is the source of the much distrust and suspicion of the christian message.This is where true christians ,like my friend Enigma, have their work cut out for them if they can take their eyes away from fanthom evangelical athiests.

Enigma:

^ I have liked the quote below from the minute I first saw it.

Finally, we can agree on something.

@gotizsata:
Very Funny, but not very funny.

Africans are at the bottom when it comes modern scientific achievements, but probabbly rank first in religiosity. Go figure.
I wish someone can convince me that there is no corollation whatsoever between these two facts.
Here we are fircely debating blood sacrifice, hellfire, and pauline doctrine, but If I dare to mention evolution or fossil records, they will shout" Its only a theory,where you there? did you see it" and then they will demand that I show proof.
Hilarious bunch.

@jesoul
Now Faith is the subtance of things Hoped for,the Evidence of things not Seen,(Hebrws11:1).
By Faith(and not primarily with Reason) we(Christains) understand that the universe was formed at God's command,so that what is seen was not made out of what is visible(Hebrws11:3).
By Faith Abraham,when called to go a place he would later recieve as an inheritance,obeyed and went,EVEN THOUGH HE DID NOT KNOW WERE HE WAS GOING.(Hebrws11:sister;there's no room for reasoning here,initially.
The basis an unbeliever needs inorder to be regenerated is Faith not mixed Reason.
I reaffirm,"Christainity is a Revelation or it is Nothing"otherwise our Faith will be resting upon a foundation which will not stand in the days of ordeal.God never in the first instance explains Himself to man's  Reason,and man cant know Him by Reason primarily.
Cheers!

@op
Even if someone rises from the dead you will not be convinced.(Luke16:31).you need Faith.
Cheers!

@ichuka.
laugh. what exactly are you trying to convince me of??
I just asked simple questions and you have giving your sunday sermons that i hve not been able to folow as it relates to my post.
You have repeated that I need to have faith. In other words, I need to surrender my mind first, and then understand?
Is that how it works?

gotizsata:

Francis Collins says this argument is null and void.

Whoever wishes to be a Christian, let him pluck out the eyes of his reason.

-Martin Luther (First Psalm Lectures, Luther's Works, Vol. 11, p.285)


Christ wants to slay reason and subdue the arrogance of the Jews,

-Martin Luther (Sermons on the Gospel of St. John, Luther's Works, V.22, p.320)


Whoever wants to be a Christian must be intent on silencing the voice of reason.

-Martin Luther (Sermons on the Gospel of St. John, Luther's Works, V.23, p. 99)

Christianity has evolved over the years. The bible was accepted as completely true by faith or by force. Gradually, as society developed and reason blossomed, certain irrationalities were "reasoned out" and given new meanings (for instance more than a few christians no longer believe the creation account. They champion evolution, but somehow tie it to God). There are lots of other instances where you find christians rationalizing portions of the bible.

Lets look at Judges 14:5-6

5 Samson went down to Timnah together with his father and mother. As they approached the vineyards of Timnah, suddenly a young lion came roaring toward him. 6 The Spirit of the LORD came powerfully upon him so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done.

Who believes that ?
Only a christian can and for the simple reason that it is in the bible. He was with his parents and a young lion came roaring towards him. He tore the lion as easily as he would have torn a young goat (how easy is that ?) and his parents did not know ? He must have had lightening speed as well.

In Edo mythology, there is a warrior referred to as Arhuan. He was said to be a giant and a strong warrior, who could uproot palm trees with his bare hands. I remember how my whole history class was giggling when the story was being discussed. Every rational person dismisses the story of Arhuan, but if it was in the bible they would accept it on faith.
For the yorubas, my math teacher once told us the story of Ogedengbe. He said Ogedengbe was a strong warrior who never died in battle.He said any time Ogedengbe's head was cut off, he would pick up another persons head from the battle field and wear it. This also served as a disguise for him, as people could usually not be able to tell who Ogedengbe was (because he kept changing heads). Again, thinking people dismiss this story (including christians) but there are people who will accept it if its in the bible. In fact, see below

If the bible had said that Jonah swallowed the whale, I would believe it.

-William Jennings Bryan (three time US Presidential Candidate)
http://www.searchquotes.com/quotation/If_the_Bible_had_said_that_Jonah_swallowed_the_whale,_I_would_believe_it./91179/

Lets move on to the Yoruba story of creation, with Obatala, the chicken, the snail, and all that (sorry if the details arent that accurate, I hope the point is understood all the same). The Yoruba story of creation is just as valid as the account in Genesis but it is dismissed as a fable while the biblical account is adopted. On what basis ? Faith or reason. (The answer is faith. Reason holds them both to be equally ridiculous).

Jesoul, this post is mainly for you (though anyone is free to respond). You tried to marry faith and reason together and I read your post with interest.
Language is limited, but I can see you are trying to rationalize your brand of christianity (no offence meant whatsoever). You may not like it, but i.chuka seems right. Even Jesus admonished his listeners to be simple/childlike. The bible also talks about the "wisdom" of men/this world being folly unto God, not so ?

Some of the so-called revelation occurs when a christian comes across a doctrine/passage that bothers him/her. He then searches and thinks until he/she comes up with a way to rationalize that passage/doctrine in a way that is more comfortable for him/herself. It is then called a revelation but perhaps an "aha" moment is a better term.

Your Ice Cube analogy does not work Jesoul, for the simple reason that that, is not the kind of faith the bible talks about. Biblical faith is accept it because its in the bible or the annointed Pastor/Pope/Preacher/Person etc said so.

Ice Cube made a plan, and had knowledge (as you yourself pointed out). Thats tantamount to saying that when I buy a recharge card, I have faith that my phone will be credited with the value of the card. No Jesoul, thats not the type of faith (if it can even be called a faith) the christian exercises. The type of faith the christian exercises is the believe it because I/the bible/(insert any authority) say so. Now thats faith .
The much quoted biblical definition in Hebrews 11:1 doesnt help matters much.

From Merriam-Webster

Definition of FAITH
1
a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2
a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

^^ Like I said, language is limited but the bolded part, is the part i.chuka is talking about. The fact that you choose (if you do) to practice a "rational" version of christianity, has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Allow me present certain issues in the bible.

the earth was created in six literal days; women come from a man's rib; a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush spoke human language; the entire world was flooded, covering the mountains to drown evil; all animal species, millions of them, rode on one boat; language variations stem from the tower of Babel; Moses had a magic wand; the Nile turned to blood; a stick turned into a snake; witches, wizards, and sorcerers really exist; food rained from the sky for 40 years; people were cured by the sight of a brass serpent; the sun stood still to help Joshua win a battle, and it went backward for King Hezekiah; men survived unaided in a fiery furnace; a detached hand floated in the air and wrote on a wall; men followed a star which directed them to a particular house; Jesus walked on water unaided; fish and bread magically multiplied to feed the hungry; water instantly turned into wine; mental illness is caused by demons; a “devil” with wings exists who causes evil; people were healed by stepping into a pool agitated by angels; disembodied voiced spoke from the sky; Jesus vanished and later materialized from thin air; people were healed by Peter's shadow; angels broke people out of jail; a fiery lake of eternal torment awaits unbelievers under the earth , while there is life-after-death in a city which is 1,500 miles cubed, with mansions and food, for Christians only.
From Dan Barker; Losing Faith in Faith

Now be my guest and tell me why you believe these things; faith or reason.
Also tell me if you dismiss incredulous stories that are not in the bible on faith or reason.

PS:
Before I am eaten alive, I want to say that I am certainly not characterizing each and every christian here. These are general but standard notions. There are christians for example who also mix God with ancestral worship. The issue is faith. Is it the "Ice Cubian" type or the "believe it even without evidence" type.

@Jayriginal.
Brilliant work!!just wondering though,were you actually stand.?

@OP platteon
You managed to miss my post in page1 of this thread like you've being missing your blessings all this while. Perhaps, the answers you seek may be in that post, cheers.

I duff my hat for you Jayriginal. . . .

Image123:

@OP platteon
You managed to miss my post in page1 of this thread like you've being missing your blessings all this while. Perhaps, the answers you seek may be in that post, cheers.

I am not missing out on any blessings. I enjoy the same sunshine, air and water that you and everyone else enjoys.
I did not miss ur post. i read it. But it not address the issue of final judgment bt god. Are You implying, by your post, that final judgment is null and void because jesus has already wiped out our sins or that only those who do not accept the sacrifice of jesus will face final judgement?

plaetton:

I am not missing out on any blessings. I enjoy the same sunshine, air and water that you and everyone else enjoys.
I did not miss your post. i read it. But it not address the issue of final judgment bt god. Are You implying, by your post, that final judgment is null and void because jesus has already wiped out our sins or that only those who do not accept the sacrifice of jesus will face final judgement?

Blessings are not limited to rain water and sunshine. The Bible already says that everyone enjoys those, you don't need to re.inform me on that, thanks.
Only those who are not written in the book of life will face 'what you call' final judgement. So, what are your remaining buts?

i.chuka:

@Jayriginal.
Brilliant work!!just wondering though,were you actually stand.?

Thank you Sir.
As to where I stand, I do not believe in the God of the bible, of the Quran or of any God as described/worshipped by man. The majority of my friends are christians though. Also, I was raised a christian.

mazaje:

I duff my hat for you Jayriginal. . . .

Thank you Sir !

for instance more than a few christians no longer believe the creation account. They champion evolution, but somehow tie it to God

huh?

as per the rest of your post- dont have time to get into all that.

suffice it to say, some errors full there.

@image123.
Thank you.
Yours is the only real and straightforward answer so far. In summary,your answer is that jesus cleansed all sins, god forgives whatever is leftover through paryer, no judgement for those who have faith in the sacrifice of jesus, but inevitable judgement for those who do not believe(non-christians).
Interesting, whether it true or not.

great topic. here are the answers.
God hates the whole human race except for the elect.
the elect are EMPOWERED by christ to be holy while rest of us are sent powerful delusions to be damned.

ichuka, i see u r readinv and quoting watchman nee. also note that in his other works, he states some christians will be sent to gehena after stating that position in the normal christian life.

christianitu
y is convoluted and callous.