The Bible and Homosexuality: What Shall We Do?

What really does the Bible say on the subject of homosexuality? Some people feel that the word never appeared in the Bible and should therefore not be condemned by Christians. Others have suggested verses that seem to be touching on the subject and therefore believe that God frowns on the activity. Yet others of a more liberal and cultural view base their convictions on what science and social norms seem to suggests. These are very touchy issues and the debates are equally passionate.

However, my interest here is to invite contributions from a Christian and Biblical point of reference from those who are practising Chrsitians as well as others who have checked out what the Bible has to say on the topic. Is the Bible completely silent on it, or what really does it say, if anything at all? What should be the Christian attitude to gays and people of other sexual preferences/orientation that are distinct and different from what the Bible does say about sexual relations?


Views welcome from everyone! I trust we'll all remember to keep it civil.

Prolegomena:
First, let me remind my readers of two things I'd wish them to constantly keep in mind while going through this writeup: (a) I'm writing from a Christian perspective and not from a politically correct or socio-culturally adopted view; (b) I know the pain of some of the people in this situation who are seeking help - and I'll try to be respectful of their dignity in my language. If anyone feels offended somewhere along this post, I'd like to tender my unreserved apology upfront in the firm belief that people are first and foremost people than anything else; which in no way suggests that my convictions are waned thereby.
___________________________


Many societies view homosexuality as a socially and/or culturally unacceptable lifestyle. It is not just a religious concern. However, when people claim that 'God made them gay' ('God' in context of the Christian faith) and press this notion as Biblically correct, a lot of issues emerge. First, we ask for a scriptural basis verifying that claim (so far, none has been forthcoming, other than mere opinions and speculations). Second, the excuse is given that the Bible neither condemns nor even remotely mentions anything on the subject of homosexuality. There is a plethora of other issues to this debate, but here's what my views are on these two suppositons:

1) Do I believe God made/created anyone as gay? No. I have requested (in other threads) that those who assert this provide the necessary Biblical texts to back up the assertion. In the absence of any biblical quotes, I have proffered a few for my own convictions. First, it is illogical that God would have had to create anyone as gay when infact He calls such a position 'abominable' in His sight (Lev.20:13). How would God make a person gay and then have to later punish such a person for being something/someone that He was directly responsible for, if that is even possible? If you strike my face and I bleed, would it be fair for you to complain about my bleeding when I did not cause it in the first place? Now, one such text that convinces me that God did not create people as gay is Eccl.7:29 - there it says that "God hath made man upright" rather than making him 'abominable' in what He detests.

2) Second, some contend that the issue of homosexuality is neither expressly condemned nor even remotely mentioned in the Bible. There are two ways to look at this. There are a few words that are not explicitly used in the Bible but are undeniably established Biblical doctrines: substitution (in Christ's sacrifice for our sins); rapture (Christians being caught up to meet the Lord at His second coming); Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit alone being the One God eternally co-existing). So, just because 'homosexuality' is not explicitly penned down in any Bible text does not justify it as a normative or prescriptive practice any more than 'abortion' would be justified since the Bible does not expressly mention it in name.

In both the OT and NT, we find clear statements that show God's disapproval of the practice.

a) Read the story of Sodom in Gen.19. Among the various understandings that could be obtained from the chapter is a clear pointer: the men of the city had less interest in having sex with women than they did with men - that is why they rejected Lot's offer of his daughters in verse 8. There are also other reasons why Sodom fell to the judgement of God (such as are described in Ezek16:49); but it is not coincidental that God used 'sodomy' as a proverbial warning to His people in Deut.23:17 - "There shall be no LovePeddler of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."

b) From the time of Abraham to the emergence of the covenant nation Israel, is it not significant that twice in Leviticus, God warned in unmistakable terms against the practice of homosexuality among His people? Just what does this involve? If we understand it simply as same-sex activity [or, for example, 'man + man = homosexuality'], then match that in any translation of the Bible to these two verses:

Lev.18:22 - "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Lev.20:13 - "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

These are explicit statements that convey God's mind on the subject regardless what term we commonly use today for the activity - homosexuality, gay, buggery, down-low, msm, etc

So many have protested the OT texts on this subject as obsolete and non-applicable today. Against the backdrop of such arguments, there's just one question to ask: since when has an abominable act in the past ceased being abominable in the present? It's all well and good that the literal application of Lev.20:13 to put gays/homosexuals to death is not something the Christian pursues today; but should that in itself overthrow the implications of homosexuality and now be regarded as having been elavated as a virtuous activity?

What about the New Testament? My writeup continues shortly.

What then about the NT - is it anywhere taught that homosexuality remains generally what it is in the OT?

The NT shows that God's mind has not changed on the issue. Perhaps, more than anywhere else in the NT, it is explicitly shown in Romans 1 that sexual relations between people of the same sexes are not countenanced by God.

Rom.1:26 - "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom.1:27 - And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is umseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

From the Biblical point of reference, we have here a question of what is 'natural', and the picture of what sexes are engaged in 'unnatural' activities. Women going against nature (lesbianism - verse 26); and men with men lusting after one another (same sex/homosexuality - verse 27). Notice also that the Bible in verse 26 describes these passions as 'vile affections' (KJV) - something which resulted from the deliberate exchange of God's truth for a lie (v.25). So, it ought to be clear that anyone reading the Bible sees that Rom.1:25-27 obviously presents the case of homosexuality with the understanding that it is not a virtuous practice from God's point of reference.


What about Jesus?

I believe that based on Matt.19:3-6 Jesus did not ignore the question of Biblical ethics with regards to relationships between people. The Jews had brought a question about divorce to Him, and He had to take them back to the creation for answers. "Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female." (v.4). Profound statement. But notice how He wraps up the argument: He appeals to the authority of what God has joined together and forbids any man to put asunder. Now, in all honesty, we should ask: who has God joined together according to Jesus' teachings? If God has joined two men together and therefore established the very same thing He detests; or, if God has joined two women together in same-sex marriages, it should be clear in Jesus' teaching. However, what we find there is that He unequivocally states that because God made them male and female in the beginning, marriage is the union of a man and a woman - nothing more than that.

So, does Jesus explicitly forbid homosexuality or same-sex unions in Matt.19:3-6? Anyone could argue that He did not - but then again, for those who want to dribble round Jesus' explicit statement about marriage in that scripture, the challenge is for them to look for an equally clear statement that He was giving His consent for the same practice described by God as abominable. Is it even thinkable that Jesus would have consented to such a thing of which God emphatically showed His disapproval? (please excuse my repetition for the sake of emphasis).

Among Christians, the Bible's position on marriage is the 'one-man-one-woman' union - just as could be referenced on Jesus' teaching as shown just above. In I Cor.7, Rom.7 and the recommendations for ministers in I Tim.3:2,12 and Titus 1:6, there is a general consensus of the one husband to one wife position. How is it possible that no reference of same-sex partnership was hinted at as part of the qualification for ministers or even a recommendation for Christian living and norms?

Those who try to push a homosexual agenda from a Biblical point of view should understand that , wherever referenced in both the OT and NT, it was not accepted as a normal Christian practice that God acquiesced to or winked at.

choice.A,

Thank you for your inputs. That was an eye opener the way you've presented the issue from the Biblical perspective. I've learnt so much and hope that soon I should be able to throw in my few lines of thought as well. Many thanks again.

Thank you so much for the write up on this subject matter. I pray (I mean Africans) remain true to scriptures without changing it to suit what we want like the west, and as we are now aware, this will bring about their doom if they do not repent. Romans 1:24 - 32.

I do also know that the right of those who practice such union have to be respected, but that does not mean it is right. God condemns such union. Let all those who wish humanity well continue to rise up against this devilish union. Thank you again.
kpantoj.

Those who say God made them gay and use it as an excuse, are not worthy of using God as a scapegoat because they ignore him calling them to a life of abstinance.
And no I do not discriminate against gays or hold any ill feelings towards them, I know many and have some in the family, but when they use God against himself I am appalled.

Biblical Homosexuality

Did God Create The Devil?

If you Christian preachers claim that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their homosexual acts, then why are there still homosexuals still alive today, or did God fail to kill them? Why did he let these people become homosexuals in the first place, if he hated it so much?

the bible says homosexuality is a sin. but so also is lying, stealing, fornication, murder, covetousness, drunkeness, witchcraft, they all have the same consequence. i dont know how many times homosexuality is mentioned in the bible, but it definitely didn't get as much mention as fornication, lying, false witnessing, oppressing the poor (which are more prevalent today than homosexuality).


i believe what we should do is all try to be obedient to the bible and seek God's help to overcome any of these sins we might be guilty of. according to the bible, Jesus is the remedy God has given for all kinds of sin. so basically, coming to Jesus is the starting point. as for homosexuals, like all other sinners they need our prayers. u can't talk someone out of sin, it's the Holy Spirit who convicts. also, sin is largely a matter of the heart so even if someone abstains from homosexual acts but lusts after it in his heart it's still a sin (the same goes for every other sin).

God created us all the same. he didnt make us liars, murderers, drunks, homosexuals. we all face different kinds of temptations and we fall for one or another. so we make the choice to sin, knowingly or unknowingly.

pray and pray some more that God would free the mind of men to be who they were made to be

@choice.A
Please start by defining homosexuality.
Can you give me supports for your claim that homosexuality is not natural?
Plus where does the bible condem homosexuality? What it condemns is that act.

I think ALL Christians should go around and purchase some plugs.  And every "Batty-boy" (homos) they come in contact with - I say put a plug up their A*ss  .  That ought to stop them from using the hole WRONGLY.  yes, the hole that God gave them to Sh1t with.

Peace

Good night and good luck

if you go to 1Samuel 20:17, Jonathan "causes David to swear again, because he loved (ahabaw) him: For he loved (awhab) him as he loved (ahabaw) his own soul (nefesh)."
       Two Aramic (Hebrew) words are used in the above quote for love. One is ahabaw meaning "of man toward man, of man toward himself, between man and woman, sexual desire," and the other is awhab meaning "to love, human love for another; includes family, and sexual, lover.

      David and Jonathan were lovers. In simple words they were homosexuals.

David kisses Saul in 1Samuel 20:41, and it says ". . . and they kissed (nawshaq) one another , and wept one with another, until David exceeded." The Aramic word for kiss in the above quote is nawshaq meaning "to put together, kiss, touch gently, handle."

Hence according to the quotes above[b] David and Jonathan, the son of Saul[/b], were homosexuals who loved each other, like a husband loves his wife.

@kuns

Let me enlighten you on something. In the Biblical days, Kissing was the customary form of greeting between men. Infact, some men still greet with a kiss TODAY

Peace

@ Chrisbenogor,

i'm guessing what you mean is God doesn't condemn homosexuals, right? because homosexuality is everything that has to do with sexual attraction between people of the same sex. the sexual act, and all.  God does condemn homosexuality in the bible (Romans 1) but not homosexuals, Jesus didn't come to condemn us (it is sin that condemns) but to save us.

This story is found right in your bible after the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomomorah, which you (Christians) teach was destroyed because of homosexuality.

Can you explain this to us Misses Reverend, because our souls are searching for the truth? Christians claim that the bible states in Leviticus 18:22 "thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination," so according to them, these homosexuals are going against the laws of the bible.

And today in 2008 the Church of England which gave their black subjects and slave christianity are trying to make homosexual acceptable in churches across Northen Ireland, England and Wale and in many of their colonies.

Kuns, the fact that the anglican church is ordaining homosexuals doesn't disprove anything. christianity in many western orthodox churches is very different now compared to what it was when they were spreading the gospel round the world. many europeans say they are christians out of routine but hardly go to church and cant be bothered with God or the bible. homosexuality is still a sin, people have the right to accept or reject God's word.

Homosexual is embedded in the cultural and genetic heritage of the Cauasians (Europeans) in General? It goes back a long way thousands of years of his- story tells us this. From the beginning of european civilisation homosexuality was prevalent. Back to the Greeks with Zeus to turn into an animal so he could be with a lover (man), to the founding fathers' of Rome Romulus and Remus, who say their mother was a she-wolf who suckle them, this is reality is telling you of beastailty, also prevalent in European societies.

Homosexual is prevalent in the bible, Ok, check this out, tell me what you think?

See 1 Samuel 1: 26 " I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women."

WHAT!!!

Tell me that doesn't sound like an homosexual sublimial suggestion. Imagine one man telling another "very pleasant have you been unto unto what unto me, thy love to me, what,"

GL, are they talking about what I think they are talking about?

Homosexual is embedded in the cultural and genetic heritage of the Cauasians (Europeans) in General? It goes back a long way thousands of years of his- story tells us this. From the beginning of european civilisation homosexuality was prevalent. Back to the Greeks with Zeus to turn into an animal so he could be with a lover (man), to the founding fathers' of Rome Romulus and Remus, so say their mother was a she-wolf who suckle them, this is reality is telling you of beastailty.

Homosexual is prevalent in the bible, Ok, check this out, tell me what you think?

See 1 Samuel 1: 26 " I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women."

Tell me that doesn't sound like an homosexual sublimial suggestion. Imagine one man telling another "very pleasant have you been unto unto what unto me, thy love to me, what,"

GL, are they talking about what I think they are talking about?

i dont know about the zeus, romalus and remus thing but i dont agree it is the genetic heritage of any race, sure it has been around for ages, but it has been a conscious choice all along. whatever,

about David and Jonathan, the bible portrays them as loving one another as brothers, not as lovers. david had been anointed already before he met jonathan so why would they make him king if he'd had homosexual relations. homosexuality in israel was punishable by death.

does the verse you quoted sound out of place to you for a conversation between brothers? what's strange in david saying jonathan had been pleasant unto him? or that the love they shared was more than the love of a woman? jonathan, who saved david from his father's rage several times. jonathan who could have seen david as a threat to his becoming king yet helped him. wouldn't you feel that way towards a guy who did that for you and isn't even your relative? i would, and i'm straight.

Kuns:

And today in 2008 the Church of England which gave their black subjects and slave christianity are trying to make homosexual acceptable in churches across Northen Ireland, England and Wale and in many of their colonies.

So because a few sheep has gone astray, does that give you the right to criticize Christianity on a whole?. That's generalizing and unfair - very unfair.

So if your cousin is a crackhead -is it ok for me to refer to your entire family as the crackhead family who doesnt own a crackpipe.

Anyway, this is my last until Friday.

Wishing you and your family a joyous holiday.

Peace

@kuns

Let me enlighten you on something. In the Biblical days, Kissing was the customary form of greeting between men. Infact, some men still greet with a kiss TODAY

Peace

Homosexual here implies sexual intercourse. amd not tongue to tongue kissing, my dear. Do you follow?

@GL

You can easily research it, Also Homosexuality is epidermic within european culture and society. Just go on google and type in Homosexual or gay. You'll see.

You will find it in all sphere of european culture. This information is in the local public domain for all to see.

The bible didn't say brother, although it is the notion which is presented to the world.
What the bible says and I quote 1 Samuel 1: 26 in part "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women."

What, the love of women? A man love for another passing that of a woman? How do you love a man more than a woman? This is MORE than brother kind of LOVE. This one was physically and emotionally deeper. I am distressed for you? Then very pleasant, what does that mean? GL, If a man says to you your loves to him is very pleasant and wonderful, what you think he is talking about sisterly or friendly love?



@Cayon

I'm not saying all european are homosexuals. No. That is not correct or right information.

What I am saying is that homosexuality is a major part of european culture.

Out of every ten christians, 9.5 are very very very very dumb. The remaining 0.5 just spew rubbish here.
So none of you could simply read up what homosexuality is?
*shakes his head*
You lot are a disgrace to human intelligence, what is so difficult in just using google?
I am not going to do any research for you, if you decide to live your lives on the intelligence of people who used candles as light and could not even make paper then so be it.
If any of you think you are a rare exception to my case step up and tell us the difference between a homosexual act and homosexuality.

Chrisbenogor:

Out of every ten christians, 9.5 are very very very very dumb. The remaining 0.5 just spew rubbish here.
So none of you could simply read up what homosexuality is?
*shakes his head*
You lot are a disgrace to human intelligence, what is so difficult in just using google?
I am not going to do any research for you, if you decide to live your lives on the intelligence of people who used candles as light and could not even make paper then so be it.
If any of you think you are a rare exception to my case step up and tell us the difference between a homosexual act and homosexuality.

Ahh, Chris. Don't even go there! It's not just the fault of Christianity, it's got a bit to do with education too; imagine what'll happen were many homophobic Christians, or Churchianits to checjk and find that homosexuality isn't itself a sin, and that as the smart Archbishop Desmond Tutu has noted, that there're homosexual priests who don't practice homosexuality; imagine if Churchianists and so-called Christians discovering the meaning of homosexuality; hahah, it'll rock their world. But no, people are content to repeat what they've heard.

And to think that the bible is silent about lesbians, chei!

.

What can I say than to stick to the Bible and don't twist issues when its comes to homosexuality.

GOD created Adam and Eve, the bible never mentioned Adam and Adam.

All those gays and lesbians out there all sinners, they need to repent fast or they will rot in HELL.

I dislike it when Pastors and Christians try to justify the issue about Gays and Lesbians.

If you a Pastor and you can't preach the honest truth about this issues, then you should not be one.


www.churchwhereabouts.com

Nimshi its just annoying to see that adults cannot verify simple things before taking a stand.
For instance I have been too lazy to read about evolution as the life sciences bore me so I don't rant about it. These intellectual pygmies just come here to make sounds like bush men in the kalahari desert.
*sheesh*

Hei Chris, it's not difficult to feel your angst. And the case of homosexuality is particularly vexing. We've discussed this before, I'm sure, and it's tough to  have to  repeat thisngs while people don't check things up.

Chrisbenogor:
For instance I have been too lazy to read about evolution as the life sciences bore me so I don't rant about it.

It'll be a better world were people to take to not ranting about subjects we're yet to be up to speed about; or, at least, to be skeptical before submitting to the unreasonable.

Kuns:
You can easily research it, Also Homosexuality is epidermic within european culture and society. Just go on google and type in Homosexual or gay. You'll see.

No, homosexuality isn't "epidermic" within European Culture. If you do a bit of (re)search, you'll find that the number of homosexual persons in Africa wouldn't be less than the number of European homosexuals within any statistical significance.

Kuns:
What I am saying is that homosexuality is a major part of european culture.

Er, how do you know this?

And, exactly what do you mean by "homosexuality is a major part of european culture"?

Kuns:
Homosexual here implies sexual intercourse.

This clarification is important, but it doesn't appear to be enough. Why? It doesn't make good sense to accept this; we won't start redefining words in our corner of earth, would we? Would it be acceptable to say that "heterosexual" means "sexual intercourse"? Don't think so. An expression close to what you're talking about is probably "homosexual sex"; that could help.

.

@Kuns,

i'm female so if a guy says that to me it's different. if it were a girl, or my brother or sister i would see it as a normal expression of sisterly affection. i find it hard to believe that you think it's strange for a man to have a stronger love for a sibling than for a woman. what would you then say about the love between a mother and child. that is even stronger.  really, you're taking david's statement out of context. he didnt just meet jonathan and say all these things. he said this after jonathan was killed in battle and he said this after jonathan had risked his father's wrath and sacrificed his chances of being king to save david. that is real love. people don't do that for others,

about homosexuality being epidemic in europe. well, i disagree. it didnt just start and it isnt spreading like a disease. homosexuality has been on in many societies around the world for ages. in ancient Greece for example.

@ Chrisbenogor,

you are missing the fact that this thread is about what the bible says and not what any "intellectual" thinks about homosexuality. i'm not homosexual and i can't be bothered to do any research on it right now, but since you're so smart and you brought up the issue of the difference between homosexuality and homosexual act you might want to enlighten us on it. otherwise, it's ur problem still.  however, like i said before sin in christianity is a thing of the mind. if u do something in ur heart but don't express it physically it's just as bad. if u get tempted and refuse to give in then it's not sin, jesus classified lusting after a woman in the heart as fornication.

also, considering the great impact "dumb 9.5/10 christians" have had on modern life, civilization, education you don't really believe we're that dumb, do you? not like it matters though, afterall, James Watson (a proven intellectual) thinks blacks are intellectually inferior to whites.  

@ Nimshi, please can you say where in the bible it is written that homosexuality is not a sin. and please dont come quoting one of those other books because the title of this thread is "bible and homosexuality" and we're giving our 2 cents on that. plus don't forget that christians accept the authority of only the bible so it is useless to bring in other books now. plus, i'm not homophobic and i don't understand what you mean by "it's not christians' fault, it's education". education where? in church or school? the ultimate source of christian education is God's word which says homosexuality is a sin. i really dont think nigerian schools teach anything about homosexuality. i don't know what Archbishop Tutu's views are on the subject except that he criticizes homophobia (and i agree, we shouldn't hate anyone).

by the way Chrisbenogor, since you're so smart i think you should be out there doing some great things to make nigeria proud. don't just sit here on nairaland, do something big with your intellect. prove to the rest of the world (James Watson in particular) that blacks have intelligent genes too. we'll support and applaud you regardless of our religious differences.

Prolegomena:
First, let me remind my readers of two things I'd wish them to constantly keep in mind while going through this writeup: (a) I'm writing from a Christian perspective and not from a politically correct or socio-culturally adopted view; (b) I know the pain of some of the people in this situation who are seeking help - and I'll try to be respectful of their dignity in my language. If anyone feels offended somewhere along this post, I'd like to tender my unreserved apology upfront in the firm belief that people are first and foremost people than anything else; which in no way suggests that my convictions are waned thereby.

Abeg tell them you owe no one any apology. The simple notion from the creation of human being in Gen.2 :22 & 24,should have been a good explaination to them all.In chapter 24 it says so shall a man leaves his house to his wife and they shall become man.
I owe no apollogy to anyone, i see gays and lesbians as disgrace to humanhood. God created humans and animal in two,  male and famale. I never seen any animal being attracted to opposite sex only humans. That is to say that animals reasons better than some humans created by God.

Let's take this thought-by-thought so that there isn't any confusion:

GL:
@ Nimshi, please can you say where in the bible it is written that homosexuality is not a sin.

The bible does not say homosexuality is not a sin; and the bible does not say homosexuality is a sin. I challenge you to show a verse or more from the bible where homosexuality is presented as a sin. I hope you'll read the challenge clearly: The challenge is to show those verses of scripture stating that homosexuality is a sin; I will be flexible to accept verses that imply that homosexuality is a sin. And I can tell you that you'll never find one; it is just the same as you wouldn't find that the bible says heterosexuality is a sin. The crucial hint here is to correctly define homosexuality, just as you could attempt to correctly define heterosexuality. Once you know these two, you may begin to see the point.

GL:
plus don't forget that christians accept the authority of only the bible so it is useless to bring in other books now.

Would you allow us to use a dictionary, at least? The bible doesn't use the word "homosexual". So, at the very least, I'll suppose you'll accept strict definitions that don't blur the difference between sexual orientation and sexual activity.

I'll suppose you're heterosexual. That you're heterosexual says nothing about your sexual activities; being heterosexual only tells me that you'll be attracted to persons of the other gender; you may be heterosexual and celibate. Consider the following:

1) "X" is heterosexual and single and celibate; then "X" is doing what is right according to the Christian faith.
2) "Y" is homosexual and single and celibate; then "Y" is doing what is right according the the Christian faith.

Is there any contradiction in the statements 1) and 2) above?

Are you seeing what it means to be homosexual?

GL:
the ultimate source of christian education is God's word which says homosexuality is a sin

Where does the bible say homosexuality is a sin?

I understand that the bible describes an activity as sinful: men having sexual intercourse with men. When two consenting males have sexual intercourse, they're having homosexual sex, just as when two consenting male and female doing the same would mean they're having heterosexual sex. The bible does not condemn the disposition to be sexually attracted to persons of the same sex; the bible condemns homosexual sex between men. Do you disagree with anything I've written here?

GL:
i don't know what Archbishop Tutu's views are on the subject except that he criticizes homophobia (and i agree, we shouldn't hate anyone).

Let me bring you up to speed about a specific comment by the Archbishop that's relevant to this discussion, and this is the comment that should command your attention and that of other Christians:

The Archbishop encourages homosexual priests not to practice homosexual sex; does this mean anything to you? This is the view that is relevant to Christians who're thinking about homosexuality. I find it bold, bolder than the Archbishop's views on homophobia (which any right thinking human ought to condemn).
.

Nimshi:

Let's take this thought-by-thought so that there isn't any confusion:

The bible does not say homosexuality is not a sin; and the bible does not say homosexuality is a sin. I challenge you to show a verse or more from the bible where homosexuality is presented as a sin. I hope you'll read the challenge clearly: The challenge is to show those verses of scripture stating that homosexuality is a sin; I will be flexible to accept verses that imply that homosexuality is a sin. And I can tell you that you'll never find one; it is just the same as you wouldn't find that the bible says heterosexuality is a sin. The crucial hint here is to correctly define homosexuality, just as you could attempt to correctly define heterosexuality. Once you know these two, you may begin to see the point.

Would you allow us to use a dictionary, at least? The bible doesn't use the word "homosexual". So, at the very least, I'll suppose you'll accept strict definitions that don't blur the difference between sexual orientation and sexual activity.

I'll suppose you're heterosexual. That you're heterosexual says nothing about your sexual activities; being heterosexual only tells me that you'll be attracted to persons of the other gender; you may be heterosexual and celibate. Consider the following:

1) "X" is heterosexual and single and celibate; then "X" is doing what is right according to the Christian faith.
2) "Y" is homosexual and single and celibate; then "Y" is doing what is right according the the Christian faith.

Is there any contradiction in the statements 1) and 2) above?

Are you seeing what it means to be homosexual?

Where does the bible say homosexuality is a sin?

I understand that the bible describes an activity as sinful: men having sexual intercourse with men. When two consenting males have sexual intercourse, they're having homosexual sex, just as when two consenting male and female doing the same would mean they're having heterosexual sex. The bible does not condemn the disposition to be sexually attracted to persons of the same sex; the bible condemns homosexual sex between men. Do you disagree with anything I've written here?

Let me bring you up to speed about a specific comment by the Archbishop that's relevant to this discussion, and this is the comment that should command your attention and that of other Christians:

The Archbishop encourages homosexual priests not to practice homosexual sex; does this mean anything to you? This is the view that is relevant to Christians who're thinking about homosexuality. I find it bold, bolder than the Archbishop's views on homophobia (which any right thinking human ought to condemn).
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i see what you mean by the difference between homosexuality and the act. like i said in an earlier post my understanding of homosexuality is sexual attraction between couples of the same sex. you're right that the bible doesn't use the word homosexuality, but homosexuality is the word in use today for what Paul was talking about in Romans 1 and what God told moses,

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;



concerning sexual orientation you make it sound like it's genetic. i believe it's a choice thing. i'm straight so i cant say i know how they feel but i don't think the bible suggests that God created some people with homosexual orientation and others with heterosexual orientation. if it were true, however, that some people are genetically homosexual then that wouldn't be a sin cos it's out of their control. in which case they would have to be celibate.


sexual attraction itself isn't a sin, lust is though. about the disposition to homosexual attractions, it wouldn't be a sin if it were a normal consequence of one's genes. but then, the bible calls it "vile affections".

I hope nimshi has answered you well.
@nimshi
Recent events have just been annoying me jo. So maybe you will notice the patience to show them these things all again is not there. Abeg explain to them, each time their intelligence gets insulted by smarter people like desmond. Cheers man.