@pilgrim.1

Are there things that are wrong here? Let's see -

       

       ~ It was as late as the 8th century (Nicaea in 787) that such idolatry got into Christianity

       ~ those who sought to incorporate this activity knew it had something to do with
          violating God's Word

       ~ the so-called 'respectful veneration' (dulia and hyperdulia) was not found among
          the apostles; but those who sought to incorporate it understood it was a recent matter
          beyond the time of the apostles

       ~ it is amazing that the issue was a "dispute" in post-apotolic age; for this was not even
          a matter to be debated among early Christians; for the apostles were quite definite on
          this issue and we can understand where they stood -

              ●  that they abstain from pollutions of idols - Acts 15:20

              ●  idolaters had nothing to do with God's Kingdom - 1 Cor. 6:9

              ●  what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? - 2 Cor. 6:16

              ●  Little children, keep yourselves from idols - 1 John 5:21

              ●  that they should not worship devils,
                  and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood:
                  which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk - Rev. 9:20

Should anyone be reading from the apostles and still wonder about making graven images to bow down to them in the mistaken doctrine that - what? That the incarnation of Christ was a precedence to such idolatry and yet we didn't find any such things among the apostles?

Catholics do not worship statues or icons.  Of all the postings you provided from the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’ (I think you did a good job I might say) it is plainly clear that worship of anything other than God is prohibited.  You do right to say:

~ It is clear that the worship of images did not begin with apostolic Christianity

The Catholic Church speaks out against the worship of images, starting from the apostles and continuing to present day; as per the 1st commandment:

"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Question, is it your argument that God forbids the making of images that portray heavenly things?  Or, do you object to one paying honor/veneration to fallen heroes in Christ.  Or, do you object to one bowing to inanimate objects?  Or, do you object to one bowing to created beings (i.e., human beings).  I’m having difficulty in understanding your objections.

According to you, the making of a cross, or any depiction of Jesus, or God, or anything from heaven above as a graven image is wrong.  In other words, when the Jews created the Ark of the Covenant and placed cherubim and seraphim aside it and when they placed statues of angels in their temples they were breaking the 1st commandment (according to pilgrim.1), Ezekiel 41:17–18, 1 Chr. 28:18–19, Ex. 25:18–20.

What about when a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live; were they breaking the 1st commandment?  So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

How can God forbid his people from making graven images and then at the same time command them to build them.  Not only does he command them to build images of heavenly things, he also commands them to put them in their places of worship (i.e., their temples, the Ark of the Covenant, etc.).  Does God contradict himself?  According to the protestant (well those who think like pilgrim.1) yes, he does.

According to Catholic teaching (the teaching of the early Church), God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned (including the crucifix).  But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.  That’s the bottom line in the prohibitions of the 1st Commandment; worshiping graven images as gods.

Does the reader get anything from all these? If the meaning is lost in the format, let's outline them the salient points:

          ●   man is not to venerate other divinities than the one true God

          ●   Scripture rejects the idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands

          ●   These empty idols make their worshippers empty

          ●   Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God

          ●   Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God

          ●   Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God

          ●   it is therefore incompatible with communion with God

Despite reading all of these, what do we yet find as regards the practice of Catholic worship, veneration and the 2nd commandment (1st commandment for Catholicism)? It is worrying indeed to read all the above and still find Catholicism violates ALL of them through the worship of MARY.

For one thing, the Catholic Church does not teach the veneration of other divinities.  What is practiced is the veneration of saints and heroes of the Church.  The act of venerating/honoring and worshiping (using present day lingo) are two different things.  Many people don’t realize that when they pledge themselves to their country/flag they are performing a form of veneration.  Any time I attend a Nigerian function I hear people pledging themselves to their country.  Why is the act of pledging oneself to a country/idea/goal not idolatry (i.e. prohibited by the 1st commandment)?  I live in Washington DC and whenever I go downtown I see countless number of people coming here and going to monuments/statues of past American heroes.  They stand near the statue, reflect on the deeds of the individual, some even touch the statue, and what they experience at that time becomes a lasting moment in their life.  They are giving honor to the person that the statue/monument depicts.  Is this prohibited by the 1st commandment?  What is the difference between doing this in a secular sense (honoring national heroes) and doing this in a religious sense (honoring religious heroes)?  Catholics do rightly in giving honor to saints, because they are worthy of honor.  We do not give them the honor do to God alone.

Catholics have three forms of honor/veneration.  They are latria, dulia, hyperdulia.  Historically, Catholics have used those terms to describe the different types of Honor given to God and the saints.  The Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship (the saints).  In referring to the Blessed Virgin Mary another term (hyperdulia) was used to describe honor given to her because of her unique role in salvation history; since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All these terms (e.g. latria, hyperdulia, dulia) have come to be described by the English word (old English) weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.  The word worship, today, has a more limited meaning and does not have the same wider usage as in the past.  But there are some instances where it still remains.  For example, in the British legal system they would refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship" and in the American system we use "Your Honor".  What this means is that they are giving the title-holder (e.g., magistrate, judge, politician, etc.) the honor appropriate of their office.

Excerpts from the "Fulgens Corona" Encyclical of Pope Pius XII:

34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles. Thither especially let the suppliant citizens flock, and before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers, imploring especially that Rome, which is the principal city of the Catholic world, may also give the lead in Faith, in piety and in sanctity.

Source: "Fulgens Corona" - Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [from a Vatican website].

Please note tyhe following from the above -

          ●  Rome took the lead to give the early example of having worshipped the "heavenly mother"

          ●  it rests the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) on Mary

          ●  it enjoins that "before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers"


WHERE is the 2nd Commandment (or 1st commandment, Catholics) in all this?? What has happened to the express forbidding of worship and bowing down to images in all this? What has happened to all the fine talk we find in the Catechism of the Catholic Church about the fact that "Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God"?

That document (Fulgens Corona) was first written in latin and translated into English.  At most, what we can say about that document is that the term worship is used in the sense of giving the Virgin Mary the appropriate honor, her ability to fully (100%) follow God's will by giving birth to our savior.  The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English and the term, as is in the document, is not a good translation into the English vernacular of today.  I think the more appropriate word would be 'honor'.  As was said earlier, we give Mary and all the saints honor because of their faithfulness towards God.  Despite all of the hardships they may have endured, the way they lived the lives is a tangible (present day) experience which we strive for.  We know they are not gods, but rather created beings.   

Again, let me reiterate what I said before, the catholic Church does not teach the worship (latria) of anyone or anything other than God.  There may be people who improperly elevate Mary and the saints to levels that are improper and unorthodox (nay, anti-biblical), just as you will find in other denominations; when this occurs, the Church strongly comes out against it and condemns the practice.

Note: for some reason I was locked out of my previous account (Omenuko) so I opened a new account (Omenuko1). . . .