₦airaland Forum

@huxley,

huxley:
[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=188667.msg3017316#msg3017316 date=1225383430]I understand where you're coming from. But one thing I need to ask is this: how does the above establish your idea that ONLY 144,000 will go to heave?

Strictly speaking, it DOESN'T. What is the point of giving these numbers? How would a 1st/2nd century reader have understood this?[/quote]I think that the first issue has been established, even if at all you may argue on about other things. The point is that your assertion that "only 144,000" were going to heaven was wrong - and that assertion could not be based on any reading of the Bible as you had alleged earlier:

huxley:
And according to one reading, only 144000 are suppose to go to heaven.

I was interested in seeing that "reading" you had asserted, for it was not true. It is indeed hepful that people refrain from making these wild statements and holding them as what they have read from the texts - whereas we know that is not the case.

huxley:
Was it meant to be understood by the contemporaries of the writer?

I don't see how it could have been written so as not to be understood by them.

@mazaje,

mazaje:
The idea of heaven and hell does'nt make any sense, according to the bible christains are the only people that will go to heaven but then again who are the christains because there is no universal christainity

That is not true - the Bible doesn't teach what you have asserted as highlighted. It is because people take these postures already that is why they make such assertions and run away with them. Abraham was not a "Christian"; Melchizedek was not one either; the godly men of the OT were not living in the Christian era - but these are all spoken of as people who belong to the kingdom of God (Luke 13:28). An active rejection of Christ and a life spent in promoting unrighteousness is one of the reasons why people will be denied that Kingdom. It does not help to just make wild assertions and just run away with them.

@Bastage,

Bastage:
It wasn't meant as a joke. Seriously. With the greatest and utmost respect to you pilgrim, you're afraid. Maybe you won't admit it here, but if you look deep, deep down into yourself, you'll see fear there.

This is the very sort of thing that I often feel sorry for those who are too assertive this way. You don't live my life for me; and just imagine if I came across alleging things about you which I don't know. Why are you trying to force you own assumptions upon me where I have not stated it so? What is so wrong with people simply reasoning along without trying to force their allegations against others, Bastage?

For your info, you have no clue about my life; and I think that trying to force your idea of a fear upon me is quite a waste and unintelligent way of discussing. The experiences of people are quite different from your presumptions; and with all due respect, I don't have any fears deep in my heart. It is not out of fear that I believe in God - just as it would be irrational for someone to come back and allege that the reason why you assert you know there is a God is out of fear. If you cannot believe in God, you're not alone - there are many people who make those assertions and yet shy away from telling what they know about the God they postulate. But there again, I think it is quite irrational to allege things against me that you have no clue about. Unless you are at pains to just make these assertions to satisfy your presumptions where you simply have no clue about them.

Bastage:
Believe me, I'm not trying to insult you. I'm going on what I see in your words here in Nairaland. That's what Heaven and Hell does to you.

I don't consider your words as insult - too assuming, yes. Even if you want to go by my words, where I have indicated that my reason for believing in God is out of fear? Bastage, I have seen so many things in my life - things which are far too orphic to even describe in words. I have seen things that cause me fear, and things which gave me a false sense of pride and confidence. In all that I have seen and experienced, there's not one of them that has been the basis of my believing in God, or in heaven or hell. Belief in Heaven or Hell does nothing of the sort you have been trying to force yourself to allege against me; and it does not help you to be too assuming.

Bastage:
And it's just so damn hard to kick the habit of being afraid. But if you can kick it? Try.

Lol, if you are living out your own fear, you don't have to allege it against others. Doing so just simply passes you off as someone who is not rational - you make statements as if you live other people's lives for them; and that is not a healthy attitude to assume.

Bastage:
You don't have to throw the concepts of Heaven and Hell away, but try redefining their relevence.

I'm sorry, I don't "re-define" the revelance of anything for anyone who has made up their minds to hold anything they so please. If you would like it to so be done unto you, what's my worry?

Bastage:
Don't get me wrong, I'm human too. I don't pretend to be something I'm not. I feel fear. But the first step is recognising it for what it is.

I don't assume your fear has anything to do with me, honestly. That is why no matter how you react on the forum about pilgrim.1, it is not my least worries to start asseting what I don't know about anybody. I recognize that people may have their own fears - I don't define it for them, nor do I assume to know it for them before they have had the opportunity of presenting what it is for them. In all the fears I may have, however or whatever they may be, they do not constitude the reason for my believing in God.

Bastage:
You want to see God, right? Do you think that fear is going to let you see Him?

Oh c'mon now Bastage. If there's anything that is a put off, it is this silly attitude of presuming what people have not said and trying to force it on them! That is so dishonest and you should learn to leave people to live their lives by themselves. My belief in God has nothing to do with fear - if at all, certainly not your own fear. I hope I don't have to keep repeating that everytime from henceforth; but I consider that attitud a very dishonest way to objectively assess a situation.

Bastage:
The saying goes that "We have nothing to fear but fear itself". Do you know how true those words are?

I don't believe in such quips.

Bastage:
So when I said to you "Why do you think He died for you?" The answer I was looking for was "So I don't have to be afraid any more". When I said "Heaven and Hell are irrelevant" I was saying "Cast out Fear".
If you can do that, all you're left with is God.  

I know why Christ died for me, and if you could take a step to appreciate my background as a former Muslim, you would see that it was not theology or fear that settled my faith in Him. If you asked those questions and expected me to give you tailored made answers, phew! I'm so sorry that you are acting like so many people who see only linear reflections - and if things don't go their way, nobody else's experience matters to them.

For me, theologically, there are several reasons why Christ came, died and rose from the dead. In a nutshell, it was to grant the gift of eternal life for all humanity. The problem immediately pops up: what about those who never lived until Christ was born? I have no worries about that - because everyone would be judged based on the testimony of their consciences - Romans 2.

However, in my daily experiences appreciating the power of Christ's death and resurrection, I have come to see things in my life that could not otherwise have been dealt with than by faith in Him. I know that many people today disdain miracles in  Jesus' name - I don't, because I have seen it happen so many times.

The powers of the diabolical powers are real, Bastage. And I have seen for myself that those powers respond to the mention of the name of the resurrected Christ. I have actually prayed for people and known fear first hand - yes, I have experienced fear; and I still do when faced with such situations. But I have also learnt that fear is the very thing that those diabolical powers thrive on. Each time I have to deal with such issues in sharing the Gospel, I have always gone with one thing: faith in the Name of Jesus Christ preached in the power of the Holy Ghost. Demons have always violently responded to that affirmation, and been subsequently cast out.

That is just one experience of the result of Christ's death and resurrection. For someone to say that Christ's death was so that I could no longer be afraid is stating too simplistically - His death and resurrection is beyond mere talk.

Cheers.

@justcool,

Lol, anytime you do feel like weighing in on the subject, pls do - will be well appreciated. For now, I need to take some time off to attend upon something very crucial which just called for my attention.

A zillion hugs.

@huxley,

Thank you again.

huxley:
Now, supposing the 144000 were meant as those from the House of Israel. Does this number also represent ;

1) Jewish Jews

2) Jewish Christians

The Jewish population today can be estimated to be about 20 - 30 million. The number of Jews that have ever lived could be about 200 - 350 million.

Even on this revised calculation, the chances of any one Jew of being saved are miniscule.

I understand where you're coming from. But one thing I need to ask is this: how does the above establish your idea that ONLY 144,000 will go to heave?

Bastage:
OK. I'll take that as you don't want to answer. But I'll also point out that what I had in mind was about as relevant to this topic as anything could be. I respect your wish not to tell me.

I could tell you, but not in the atmosphere that you guys are often too reactionary. I mean, what was all that joke supposed to mean in reading things into my rejoinders that I never hinted about? Of course, I joke with people sometimes, but I often shy away when people demonstrate that the atmosphere is not really for a discussion bit rather for something else.

Although I could answer, my declining is not to mean that I don't want to answer simple because I don't see how that should br brought into this thread.

Bastage:
You're right. I don't believe in God. I don't have to "believe". I know there is a God. You don't have to believe something you know.

Okay.

Bastage:
And I'll tell you why I know.
At the end of the day there is only one certainty apart from "I think, therefore I am" and that one certainty is God. God just IS. He is the only IS And that's why I worship him. He is the only Truth. So you see, when I was talking to you about Heaven and Hell and saying that they're irrelevant, I wasn't joking. There is only one IS. One Truth. Nothing else matters.

Too many times, we're blinded by the side issues and we can't see the wood for the trees.

Okay.

Cheers.

@huxley,

huxley:
This is Revelations 14:

1 Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of mighty ocean waves or the rolling of loud thunder. It was like the sound of many harpists playing together.
3 This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. No one could learn this song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 They have kept themselves as pure as virgins,[a] following the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been purchased from among the people on the earth as a special offering to God and to the Lamb. 5 They have told no lies; they are without blame.


6 And I saw another angel flying through the sky, carrying the eternal Good News to proclaim to the people who belong to this world—to every nation, tribe, language, and people. 7 “Fear God,” he shouted. “Give glory to him. For the time has come when he will sit as judge. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all the springs of water.”
8 Then another angel followed him through the sky, shouting, “Babylon is fallen—that great city is fallen—because she made all the nations of the world drink the wine of her passionate immorality.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand 10 must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”

12 This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they are blessed indeed, for they will rest from their hard work; for their good deeds follow them!”

How are we to understand the above?

I already addressed the question of 144,000 above in reference to your statement:[list]

huxley:
And according to one reading, only 144000 are suppose to go to heaven.

Even Revelation 14 does not say that only 144,000 are to go to heaven, does it?

Bastage:
It's not a joke. Why be so defensive? Seriously?

I'm not being defensive - unless you deliberately wanted to read me so. I simply asked what your benefit was in the jokes and why makes statements that I never stated in my rejoinders and then attribute them to me?

Bastage:
"Why do you believe in God?"

I have answered that question in another thread when I shared my testimony on the forum. It is not my style to keep entertaining issues that are not addressing a particular topic of a thread - and I simply allowed you guys to follow the same approach after what you concluded in the previous discussions. If you don't believe in God, I have no problem with that.

@justcool,

justcool:
dear pilgrim.1
I really don't understand what you mean by the above. Do you wish to answer my questions or not.
If yes then I am all ears and I promise to respect your opinions even when I don't agree with. Have I not always done that?
If you don't want to answer my questions then its still okay. I still respect you and your opinions.

Here:

[list][quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=181454.msg3016879#msg3016879 date=1225378601]With this in mind, I could then go on and share these matters in addressing your questions. But if the aim is to argue endless with recourse to fancies and theories, I would just leave them as is.[/quote][/list]

If we are just going to keep arguing back and forth on "volition", I'm sorry that's not of any interest to me. If otherwise, I clearly said I would then go on and address your questions - did I not say so?

justcool:
When Jesus said "Upon this rock I build my church." He was not talking about earthly rock, neither was He referring to Peter as a rock like the catholics claim. He was referring to a real and tangible rock in the beyond. This rock is a living form of the conviction in the Jesus as the son of God. Thus his church is built on the conviction that He is the son of God. His church is not built on peter who is just a humanbeing.

Lol, when you guys try to interpret what Jesus said or meant, my very first question is this: where did you find that statement? If it was in the Bible and not the Grail Message, please leave it as it is. It is when those who follow the Grail Message are doing their best to re-interpret the Bible for us, that is when I point them back to their theories and show how such do not bear any substance to reality. We know what Jesus meant - if your ideas are based on the Grail Message or Abd-Ru-Shin's thoughts, they won't bear much fruit here.

Cheers.

Done.

Bastage:
If Hell exists, you will never be able to avoid it by trying to avoid it. If Heaven exists, you will never get there by trying to get there. You're working too hard and all you're doing is digging yourself in deeper. Give it up. Believe in your god. That's all you need to do. Why do you think He died for you?

@Bastage, I'm not in the mood for your jokes, please. I have not shown anywhere that I was "trying" to avoid hell - it is not a matter of "trying", and I think it does not serve you anything to push these ideas unjustifiably. I've responded to those who offered a few questions - mazaje, huxley and others, and I have not asked them to "try" to avoid anything. their choice if they want to go there either way; but I don't see why that should help anyone be projecting assertions that are not true - which was whatr I just pointed out to huxley above.

@huxley,

Okay, you went offline. Let me help you:

huxley:
And according to one reading, only 144000 are suppose to go to heaven.

Not true. Let me refer you to that same passage where many people fail to see beyond the verse you are stopping at:

    Revelation 7

    ●  The 144, 000 were from the Tribe of Israel  -  verse 4

        And I heard the number of them which were sealed:
        and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand
        of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

        (Then verses 5 to 8 shows 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes)

    ●  Afterwards, there were a huge number of believers from all the world:
        (verse 9)

        After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could numb[/b]er,
        of [b]all nations,
        and kindreds,
        and people,
        and tongues,
        stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes,
        and palms in their hands;

Many people only stop at either verse 4 or 8 - they never go on to verse 9 to see the huge number of people from all over the world who shall rejoice in the same blessings of that chapter. This is the reason why those who feel that the Book of Revelation is only about fear - good for them: such people make wild statements because they only stop at particular verses and no further than that.

Regards.

@huxley,

huxley:
And according to one reading, only 144000 are suppose to go to heaven. Given that there are more that 30 billions humans have ever existed, your chances of being amongst the 144000 is infinitesimal.

That is not true, huxley - and when people react like this, it is because they do so out of a passion to ignore the issues they should have read in all simplicity. Could I ask you to quote the reference and see things for yourself? if not, then I could oblige you - but it doesn't help to keep making these false statements just to palcate yourself.

Bastage:
Not unless your name is pilgrim.1!!!

Thanks for the teasing - but it is really unnecessary, unless you're reacting to something that makes you unable to contain yourself.

@mazaje,

mazaje:
@ pilgrim

what about all the christains that have claimed to have been to hell? what have you got to say about them? what about all of OLAADEGBU stories of people who he claims have been to hell? if there is no one in hell right now how does his storeis add up? not that i believe in hell but there are so many christains out there and moslems too who have claimed to have been to hell are you now saying they are all lying?

The only hell that exist is poverty,ignorance, close mindedness and illetracy. . . . . . . hell is only an imagination. . . .

Hell is not an imagination - and that is why I knew that as soon as I posted any responses, so many people would inundate this thread with remarks and wise-cracks.

In the first place, I set clearly the difference between hades and gehenna - they are not the same spheres. Those who have shared their experiences about having been to "hell" and back are more likely speaking about "hades" and not Gehenna. Let me remind you with a verse from the Bible to show the difference:

           Luke 16:23 -
           And in hell (ᾅδης - hadēs) he lift up his eyes,
           being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,
           and Lazarus in his bosom.

Notice something here: "hadēs" is a place of torment as well for the wicked dead; but it is not to be confused for the final place of judgement; because those who are held in that sphere (hadēs), will be delivered out of it to stand before the Great White Throne judgement (Revelation 20:13); and that time, this same sphere known as "hadēs" will be cast along with death into the "lake of fire" (v. 14). Could I outline them again? Here:

    ●   "hadēs"  -- Luke 16:23

    ●   "Gehenna" -- Mark 9:47

    ●   "Lake of Fire" (or "Hell Fire" - Rev. 20:14-15

The place where those folks have visited with descriptions of souls screaming from "torments" answers to Hades and not Gehenna - for Gehenna is the place the book of Revelation calls "the Lake of Fire".

Cheers.



hadēs

@huxley,

huxley:
Is hell a physical entity or a metaphoric one? Just a thought.

The question should rather be one of reality, not just a dichotomy between "physical" and metaphorical - reality is not limited to physical plane. Hell is a real sphere, regardless the interpretations one argues about it. The argument some people have advanced aaginst this is to hold the world only in terms of physical experiences - and that is why they do not see anything other than that.

huxley:
When Jesus said "Today, you shall be with me in paradise", I suppose he meant it. What would the bandit have understood by that statement?

Agreed that He meant it - whether or not the bandit understood its import lucidly. We cannot interpret for him his own perception for him as we cannot force ideas into people's minds until they declare them themselves. But in consonance to the fact that Christ meant precisely what He meant, no one who carefully reads that verse in connection with other verses on the subject would fail to see its significance.

huxley:
Is the bandit now in paradise waiting for the judgment day?

Dear huxley, people are not lumped into one general group to face the same judgement - that is not what the Bible teaches. Paradise is a sphere that no wicked person will experience - it is never used once in the Bible as a place that holds the wicked dead. Rather, the wicked dead are held in hades, and not in παράδεισος ('paradeisos').

huxley:
Is he in the company of Moses, Abraham, Joshua, Alijah, Paul, James, etc, etc?

Is there a difference between paradise and heaven?

There is a difference between paradise and heaven - either of them referring to differing spheres.

Regards.

@justcool,

justcool:
@pilgrim 1
Thanks for your reply but I have a few questions for you.
1)You keep maintaining that Demons are spirits. What is a spirit?
2)what is a diabolical spirit?
3)Who created demons.
4) You said that they existed before man, what is their origin?
5)For what purpose were they created?
6)Since you believe in the bible as containing the whole Truth. How come in the bible description of how God created the world, demons are no mentioned. So when did God create demons?

Many thanks for your reply. Before I take each question in detail, it should be clear that I have been discussing this whole subject particular from the Christian (or Biblical) perspective. Of course, some people may have different takes on the subject, and that's okay. But as we go along, the assertion that someone makes in denial of the true nature of demons as spirits may only be carried in so far as they are willing to show how that idea is substantiated by well-attested sources or references. Failing to do so would mean that such theorizing would just have to be dispelled.

In which case, it would not be in my immediate interest to delve into Biblical discussions on that subject addressing all those questions in so far as you take a stance against the Bible. Without pretences here, we know that the people who take to the Grail Message often hold that the Bible is not the truth - and as such, I don't there's any reason for me to be shy in stating clearly that their own musings are false as well. How? Even if I am a bit reserve in quoting verses from the Bible, at least I could also grant other sources in defining the term "demon"; and as I stated earlier, all major references hold that it is a spirit/being, and not a volition or thought. If the one making such a claim in definition of that term as a 'volition' could go beyond theorising and share substance on the subject, we should be glad to see it. Failing to do so, there's no other way of addressing it directly than what it is: an unsubstantiated theory.

With this in mind, I could then go on and share these matters in addressing your questions. But if the aim is to argue endless with recourse to fancies and theories, I would just leave them as is.

justcool:
I also wish to answer one question that you asked. You asked how can a volition have a volition? Here is the answer:
Volitions do not have volitions. Demons do not have volitions, rather they are forms of volition. They are living forms or embodiments of a particular volition. I.E-- a demon of lust knows nothing but lust, the demon is lust itself in a tangible form.

Lust is an abstract quality - it is not a demon. Rather, demons drive and influence people to become lustful. The lust (abstract quality) should never be confused for the demon which influences it. there just is no way round these issues, because by theorising that "a demon is a is lust itself", you cannot come back to speak of it as "influencing people to lust" -

justcool:
It influences people to lust because it attracts lusts, its existence depends on the lust of people.

. . . which brings the same question out yet again: if a demon is lust itself, how can "lust itself" influence people to "lust"? We know that a quality such as "love" could inspire or influence people to "love" other people - but this is not the same thing as a demon, because the demon is not a quality such as lust or love. This is the reason why I said clearly that every major reference you come across (whether from its historical Greek usage or contemporary treatment) point to one thing: a demon is a spirit being.

Cheers.

I roger that - pls send me a mail, or YIM.

Nobody has to quarrel about the Revelation, and if fear is the only thing that some people see in that Book, good for them - it simple shows they see nothing else there, which again does not mean that divine judgement was never preached by other prophets.

[b]Z[/b]ion.

webpro:
somebody told me Hell Fire on and burning now, and that people that has died sinners are in Hell Fire. . . then why would the devil be in the world why people will be in Hell fire surffering.

Nobody is in Hell fire at the moment. Shocked? Okay, that's my understanding, so no heart-attacks.

The thing is that according to the Revelation 19-20, if we follow the chronology of events, this is how the judgement is laid out:

1. the false prophet and the beast are first cast in -- Revelation 19:20

2. then the devil is next cast in, where (1) above has taken place -- Revelation 20:10

       the Great White Throne judgement ensues (Rev. 20:11)

3. next, death and hell are cast in -- Revelation 20:14

4. then all the wicked are next cast in -- Revelation 20:15.

But why "hell" in Rev. 20:14 - is that to say that "hell" is cast into "Hell Fire"? Lol, no. The "hell" in Rev. 20:14 is "hades", a sphere that holds the wicked dead - it is different from the final place of judgement known as the Lake of Fire (which we commonly call "Hell Fire". This 'Lake of Fire' points to the very figure of judgement Jesus spoke about in the Gospels with the term "Gehenna" (or 'γέεννα', geenna - Mark 9:47).

Hades and Gehenna are not the same, for Revelation 20:14 shows that it was hades which is cast into Gehenna. Those who refuse to repent and die in that condition will be held in hades until that day - and that is why I said that no one is in Hell Fire (Gehenna) at the moment. It is only when Judgement takes place that Gehenna becomes operative for the wicked dead. May our hearts and minds trust Jesus Christ while we are alive.

Regards.

@naomijt,

naomijt:
According to scriptures, those who die still sleeps till the end of the age when judgement will take place.

Thank you for your brief but packed answers.

1 John 1:7

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

@m_nwankwo,

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=181454.msg3016364#msg3016364 date=1225373243]@Pilgrim

You continue to raise the same issues. Part of the problem in this discussion seem to be the interpretation of words. You adhere strictly to the dictionary meaning of every word. To make my self clearer and less abstract I will adhere to ordinary meaning of words as in the dictionary and where I cannot, I will define or explain what I meant.[/quote]I should not begin to go into the details you raised again, which so far (IMHO) are still saying the same vague things.

Rather, I should just point you to Pastor AIO's astute observation to yours:
[list]

Pastor AIO:
There has been no talk of demonic Volitions until you came along, and your contribution has not really helped the advancement of this thread.

[/list]

Cheers.

@Pastor AIO,

Pastor AIO:
Actually I think that spirit possession can manifest bahaviourally, like having addictions, or indulging in fornication. '2 demoniacs making love' paints a wild picture of out of some horror movie but it might not actually seem like that. The point is that the impulse has a spiritual source and the fact that the lovers are not rolling their eyes in a crazed fashion and contorting their bodies does not mean that they are not possessed. Possession can even be manifested in the form of ailments, such as the deaf and dumb man that Jesus encountered.

Lol, there is a difference in demon-activities and the specific case of demon-possession. I have repeated the outline earlier, and noted the difference. Demonic activities may include all sorts of influences to commit indecent acts; but demon-possession is quite a different matter from being influenced to sin or addiction.

Cheers.

Pastor AIO:
Earlier I asked, What is Demon possession? Actually, I'd like to rephrase the question to What is Spirit possession?

They could be the same, although used in particular contexts. A demon is a spirit; and as such, demon-possession can also be referred to as "spirit-possession".

Pastor AIO:
The way I'm led to see the human being is that he is a constitution. Literally, he is Con - stitution, con - statuere, that is diverse things that have been 'set up' together. or simply put together. For example the human body is a constitution. It's constituents are the Liver, the Heart, Muscles, A brain, and these are all various things amongst others that are brought together to form the physical constitution of a human body.

Granted.

Pastor AIO:
Man's being is similarly a constitution and amongst it's constituents is An Identity or ego, a Will, and other constituents include a variety of Urges and Habits. These things are in fact various and not One as we would presume and that is made clear by the fact that they can be in conflict with each other. For instance, consider a man that is attempting to quit smoking. His Will refuses to accept a cigarette yet there are urges within him that influence him to reach of the cigarette. Those urges are in conflict with his will. Now just because he smokes against his will is not to say that the urge to smoke is not a part of him. We have an habitual nature as well as a spiritual nature. The Spiritual is capable of spontaneity and originality and is not restrained to habits and environmental influences.

This is not describing demon-possession, but an addiction.

Pastor AIO:
Another constituent part is the conscious ego. Now a common claim amongst people who suffer demonic possession is that they are not present during, and have no recollection of the events of possession. It appears that not only does the conscious ego lose total control of determining behaviour but it is swamped completely by other faculties during possession to the point that it is no longer present. Some others are present but cannot help performing the actions that they perform. They are no longer in control. There are varying degrees of this where one feels overwhelmed by external urges. It could be a couple not being able to help themselves when they fall into bed together while being unmarried. All the way up to full blown possession where the consciousness is swamped out completely.

Committing fornication is not to be miscontrued as equating the idea to demon-possession - that would be like two demoniacs falling into bed, which is another thing entirely. However, that the victims of demon-possession are "no longer in control" is a basic description of that phenomena. They may be conscious and recognize their immediate environment, and in some cases even sob for help; but basically, they are victims and not in control of their human faculties.

@Pastor AIO,

Appreciate your reply.

Pastor AIO:
I think that the main problem here is the ascribing of the same terminology to very different things. What Nwankwo and Justcool mean by 'demon' is not what Christians mean by 'demon'. The Argument is about definitions and I grant that definitions can be arbitrary as long as we all know what we are referring to when we use a certain term.

Granted. When one is using a term and asserting it as a fact without reference to any substance other than theorising, it becomes necessary to point out that such theorising is the person's personal ideas that bear no substance to reality.

Pastor AIO:
The Word demon has it's origins in the Greek word Daimon. A Daimon is an intermediary being, independent of humans, that conveys divine knowledge to humans.

This was why I had stated earlier that:
             ___________________________________________________________________

              4. every major reference to demons point to spirit beings, not in any instance would
              anyone be able to defend the idea that they are "volitions" - not in one instance,
              regardless what religious perspective they hold.
            ____________________________________________________________________

From the sources you had quoted, it still substantiates that same inference - that demons (regardless the perspective one holds) are spirit beings; they are not volitions, but beings with essential nature as spirits.

Pastor AIO:
Note, there are no demons in the old testaments. Some translators have tried to force the word demon into the old testament but the fact is that there is nothing that equates to the christian concept of demon in the old testament.

I am not so sure that the highlighted part of that assertion could pass. Demonic activity was well known in the OT and in Judaism - that the Hebrew OT does not mention a Greek equivalent of "demon" specifically, does not suppose therefore that it was unknown to the Jews at all. Let me point out some issues here even under Judaism:

1. In the Gospel narratives where Judaism was also evident in the early ministry of the Lord Jesus, we note the Jews directly accusing Him of casting out demons by the prince of demons - Beelzebub:

      "But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils,
       but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils." [Matthew 12:24]

The question now is this: where did those Jews get the idea of "demons" from, if those under Judaism were never acquainted with the phenomenon? They already had laid this charge directly against Him (Matt. 9:34), but he had not responded to them. Just because we find it in the NT does not mean that Jews were largely vacant about its occurences while still under Judaism.

2. But this charge of Beelzebub as such was directly in reference a known diabolical being in the OT referred to as Baalzebub - the god of Ekron (2 Kings 1:2-3).

3. What is even more fascinating is that, though the OT may not have mentioned them specifically as "demons", we know that the OT actually mentions demonic activity several times. An akin term used in the OT is "familiar spirits", and a few examples:

      ●  Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit,
          that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold,
          there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.  [1 Samuel 28:7]

      ●  And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of
         Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft,
         and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in
         the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. [2 Chron. 33:6]

      ●  And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground,
          and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be,
          as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech
          shall whisper out of the dust. [Isaiah 29:4]

There are definitely more; but the Jewish scriptures knew of demonic activity - even of mediums which allowed themselves to be possessed by demons for power - although it is in the NT we find these "spirits" specifically given that term "demons". One cannot argue that demons were unknown in the OT just because the term was not mentioned there. Another example of demonic activity in the OT is necromancy; but we don't find that term in the NT, which does not suggest that it was not known in those times.

Pastor AIO:
Now as regards demon possession what I can tell is this. It is not always considered an evil thing. In christianity possession by any spirit other than the Holy spirit is considered evil, yet in other cultures possession by various spirits is considered a blessing. Even the spirit of animals. For example, here is a link to a video of a man possessed by the spirit of Ekun (leopard) in yorubaland.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1iitrSD9I-s

Would the Yorubas describe that and categorically call it "demon-possession"?

Regards.

@justcool,

justcool:
An earnest volition of evil also takes a form corresponding to the evil nature of the volition. If it is directed against somebody, it can harm that person, I.E -- if Mr B earnestly lusts after Mrs Z. This lust will take on a form corresponding to lust, and this form will move towards Mrs Z. This form can attach itself to Mrs. Z and harm her by making her lustfull, then from Mrs Z it will proceed downwards to hell(a plane corresponding to its heaviness), yet maintaining its connection with Mr. B and Mrs Z. But if Mrs Z is righteous, her righteousness will repel this form which then proceed downwards to hell without attaching itself to her. But this form remains connected to its creator(Mr B.) and through this connection, this form will pour the evils of hell to the originator. Mr. B will be bound to hell by this connection until he changes inwardly or repents from his evil volition.

Here are two interesting things that you have mentioned:

* repel

* repent

May I let you know that they have absolutely no power in regards to casting out demons. In demon-possession, diabolical spirits actually enter into the victim's body and take up residency there - and from that position, they take control of that person's faculties and render the victim incapable of living their own lives in any way contrary to what the demon(s) desires. That is why the victims cannot deal with this problem on their own either by "repelling" or "repenting" of any "volitions" - they need help to cast out these diabolical spirits, and then repentance will follow.

The example you gave about someone lusting after the other does not point to demon-possession. Sure, it may indicate some demon activity such as influence to do evil: in which case I have highlighted these other matters such as -

* demon-affliction
* demon-depression
* demon-oppression
* demonic-obsession

These all are not the same thing as "possession". Demons could influence as well as manipulate people's thinking process; yet demons are not volitions but diabolical spirits able to exercise their own volitions over their victims. When one examines a real case demon-possession, all these ideas about "volitions" just melt away.

justcool:
Everything we do, think or say takes on form corresponding to its nature. The words that we speak take on form in planes of medium gross matter. The thoughts that we produce take on form in the planes of fine gross mater. But these(words and thoughts) are only produced with the physical body, and their forms easily die away, they are mere phantoms. People who are gifted to see planes of medium and fine gross matter have seen and testified that words, thoughts, and even emotions have forms and colours, I.E forms of envy always glow in dark green. Hence expressions like "He is green with envy."

I don't know where these ideas are coming from; but demons are not volitions or thoughts. Rather, demons are real spirits with personalities of their own independent of their victims.

justcool:
But forms created by our spiritual volition, or the volitions of our spirit are not just phantoms but they are demons. They are far stronger than phantoms because they bear within them, the principle neutral power of God which only the spirit can receive and lend.

There's no such thing as the "neutral" power of God. People who use such terms are playing around with words that they can't give substance to, because they are only repeating the same thing that they have embraced from the theories of the Grail Message.

justcool:
Thoughts forms do not have this power because thoughts have their origin in the brain, and the brain cannot lend or pass over this power which is spiritual; the brain is physical. This is why we need to pray with our spirit and not just thoughts. Prayer by merely thinking cannever rise up to the God because it an inferior form. But prayers from our spirit can rise so high(as long as it is pure) because its form possesses the principle neutral power of God. Thus a real preayer is an earnest volition of the spirit.

On the contrary, true prayer involves both the human spirit and thoughts of the heart and mind. The problem here is that these ideas you're sharing have been confusing for many people who hold them, and that is why they often leave a disclaimer that these or those are their thoughts of the Grail Message - not what they have attested out with the clear thinking of their renewed mind according to God's will. Apart from asserting terms such as "neutral power of God", not one of these dear folks I have spoken to have been able to give any substance to that idea.

justcool:
Such forms (Forms arising from spiritual volition) are very powerful, they can be evil. If the volition is evil, the form of this evil volition is what people call demons. They influence their producer and other people who cannot repeal them. Anybody carrying evil of like nature within him/her can attract such forms.

Demons are not "attracted" from person to person - rather, demons possess their victims and operate from within them to inflcit harm both to themselves and to others. People passing by a demoniac do not just "attract" the demons.

justcool:
To these belong the furies and most of the gods that some of the ancient African tribes worshiped. As long as there are humans nourishing these evil volition, these forms will remain alive. But once there are no more such people, the forms will gradually die. I have never seen such forms but I once dated a girl who was very clairvoyant, she could clearly see the demon that the heathens in her village worshiped. Such demons can approach people and seek to make such persons its spokesman or representative. So when the ancient igbos say that an idol wished for a certain person to become its priest. They are not lying. Such demons have strong influence on their worshipers and keeps them washipping it because only their worship and fear keeps the demon alive. But as soon as the people loses their fear and stop the demon worship the demon either dies or gets attracted to another demon of the same nature tormenting another people who still worship demons and live in fear of demons.

Lol, dear justcool - these theories sound interesting: but they are theories. In the first place, demons don't "die" - they are spirit beings that are alive in the spirit-realm and very active in our world. Have I seen a demon? No; but have I seen a spirit? Yes. However, from events that I have witnessed, demon activity show that they don't die but are cast out - they leave the bodies of their victims when commanded by God's power to do so. If a victim is delivered and then opens up again to demonic activity, a worse senario follows. This is why Christians who are born again cannot be possessed by any demon: because the Spirit of God lives within that person and demons see that divine presence there.

justcool:
Demons are not spirits. Spirits are stronger than demons because spirits are creatures of God, or better said, spirits originates in the Kingdom of God. But demons are only living forms of volitions of Spirits. Just as the life and sustenance of a spirit depends of God, the life and sustenance of a demon depends on its creators. No demon can ever enter Paradise because demons are not works of God.

Demons are spirits.

justcool:
Lucifer also produced so many demons. His wrong volitions took on forms and tormented mankind. But even Lucifer's volition cannever be as strong as a spirit. Spirits(human beings) only live in fear and torment of demons out of ignorance, not knowing God, and sin. Once the spirit recognizes its origin, its creator(God), and live in accord with the will of God, then such a spirit will not even need to battle with demons. His existence will dispel all demons around him. One who live in the laws of God need not battle with demons or battle with evil spirits like so many churches do. His existence will repeal all demons.

My dear, demons are spirits - and when your discussion enters grounds about the Church, here is where I would have to set you straight. I have shown from the Bible the fact of demons; but it is the devil himself that is fooling people into thinking that demons are volitions - that is why when you ask such people simple questions, they come back with vague answers bearing no substance. If you ask them to look at documented cases of demon-possession, you will not find these same people able to say anything; all they come back with are more vague terms, more vague definitions, more vague ideas and theories. Demons are not the creation of man - they existed before man, but are always seeking who among men to possess and wreck havoc upon.

Demons also have other types of influneces - and the most common work of demons is to attack the person of Christ and His Word. This is why you find so many people today doing their very best to denounce the Bible and claim that the apostles got the message of Christ wrong! This is why such people claim some "special knowledge" to re-interprete the message of the apostles, use Biblical terms, obfuscate the Biblical message, and yet be unable to answer simple questions on their own theories.

justcool:
This is my perception of the issue based on my experiencing of the Grail message. As always, I advice readers of my posts to read the Grail message.

I already knew that what we have been reading from you guys are just the neat packaging of the Grail Message. All the same, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Regards.

@justcool,

Hallo. I'm doing okay and trust the same for you.

justcool:
Prayers are forms of good volition sent upwards to God. Demons are form of evil volition.

Therefore m_nwankwo is right in his assertion that demons are spiritual volitions.

I maintain that m_nwankwo is absolutely wrong. There's just no way to theorise round this, and I sympathise with these ideas simply on the basis that you guys are preaching the Grail Message here. In reality, the idea that demons are volitions still has no substance - especially because when I ask simple questions in reference to what has been defined, the answers only come off really tenuous.

If for the moment I take you back to what m_nwankwo has said and then discuss a few of these highlights:
_____________________________________________________________

Finally in my previous posts, I clearly distinguished between spirit possesion and demon affliction. An alien spirit can posses a human being but a demon cannot. A demon can afflict or influence a human being but incapable of taking posssesion of the human body since a demon is not a spiritual being. Only a spirit can possess a body inhabited by another spirit. I also stated that the intruding spirit can be cast out easily and the demon afflicted can be cured by one who stands in the authority and power of God. Spirit possesion and demon affliction are two different things. Stay blessed.

Earlier, I had outlined these matters and also clearly distinguished between demon-possession and demon-affliction; as well to whom they are applied. In that previous entry, I remarked that believers could be “oppressed and harrassed mentally; as well as afflicted bodily” – yet, in all these, one thing is clear: a Christian cannot be possessed of a demon; and only the unregenerate are open to such a phenomenon. I had covered these issues, and that was why I didn’t refer to them in his riposte.

That said, here are the few things that I had highlighted in the quote above:

● ‘An alien spirit can possess a human being but a demon cannot ’

● reason why a demon cannot possess a human body is because
‘a demon is not a spiritual being’

● ‘Only a spirit can possess a body inhabited by another spirit’

● ‘the intruding spirit can be cast out’

There are a few problems with these assumptions. Let me bring them out:

m_nwankwo stated that:
● ‘An alien spirit can possess a human being but a demon cannot’

Although he did not define what he meant by an “alien spirit”, he however got it wrong that a demon cannot possess a human being. First off, I had shown him that demons are diabolical spirits (Matt. 8:16). It is because they are spirits (or ‘spirit beings’), that is why they can possess human beings. To deny that fact and then assume that they are mere “volitions” is to use vague terms that confuse the whole premise for him – because there is no other way he had defined that word ‘volition’ than as “the expression of the free will by the human spirit”. A demon is not an expression of a freewill – it is a diabolical spirit able to possess a human being and exercise a will of its own. How could a "volition" have a "volition" of its own?

He also stated that:
● ‘Only a spirit can possess a body inhabited by another spirit’

I agreed with him on this – which was the reason why I’ve consistently stated that demons are spirits; and as such are able to possess a human being. Aside from the fact that being defined as a ‘volition’ does not meet this criteria, a demon can be cast out on the fact that it is a spirit. Incidentally, he agreed with the fact that a spirit can be “cast out” as well; and that is why we speak of casting out demons, rather thann "casting out" volitions.

It would really help for someone to make a serious reflection on this matter and think deeply. As long as one keeps theorizing on vague terms, they would find it very difficult to answer simple questions. It is because many people have veered off into these vague ideas, that is why they are unable to hold a consistent thought thereto.

@m_nwankwo,

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=181454.msg3013769#msg3013769 date=1225315142]That question is not immature. I simply posed them to bring you to the context in which I used the expression " a will can create a will". God is not a will but WILL is an attribute of God. Spirit is not free will but free will is an attribute of the spirit. The the will of the demon is not the demon but an attribute of the demon. Besides, I never said that a demon has free will. I only stated that it has a will. And the will of the demon is that it can act independent of its producer, the spirit of man.[/quote]Let's get 3 basic things set out right here. First, my thanks for your response. The 3 things are these:

1. I think now you've come round what I meant about keeping within the perameters of our discussion. That is why these two issues should be distinguished: "God IS a will" and "God HAS a will" - they are not the same, and I wondered why you had raised that question in the first place, seeing that I would not have inferred at all that God or human beings do not have wills of their own.

2. That "will" is an attribute of God is not contingent on the discussion so far; and the point has been all along to define the term 'demon'. The question is whether a demon is simply and nothing other than a "volition" or a "spirit being". Defined in yours as a volition, I raised the question as to whether a volition (as an abstract quality) also possesses a volition (abstract) of its own. It does not appear that you have yet clarified that very issue, other than the concern for the assertions which yet have had no substance to your definition itself.

3. Whatever you arrive at, it is not the quality of the "will" that matters (such as "freewill" or any other "will". The basic assumption you have always given is that a demon has a will; which again is requiring the question to be asked yet again: if a demon is a volition, does a volition have a volition?

If these terms just keep going round in circles, it would not be surprising the difficulty you encounter in clearly holding a substance to what you have been defining. Pardon me, but so far they have been theories which have been asserted; and apart from the assertions, those theories have not been able to bear any substance in reality.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=181454.msg3013769#msg3013769 date=1225315142]You seem to equate free will with acts of free will. Free will is an atribute of the spirit that creates the acts. Demons are evil volitions or evil acts of the spirit. The attribute of the spirit that produces these evil acts is the free will. The will of a demon is not the free will of the spirit. Just an earthly picture, you can decide to write a book, go to a movie, cook etc. These activities are acts of your will but not the will itself. The book that you wrote or the food you prepared can be destroyed but the ability that produced them is intact with you. You can still use that ability (will) to write a new book or cook another dish.[/quote]I'm sorry, but I don't hold or confuse the will for the act - and that's why I don't think it is quite right to hold that a demon is the "evil acts" of the spirit. Demons are evil spirits, not acts - the acts are influenced by the activity of diabolical spirits known as demons. These spirits known as "demons" can be cast out - that's what Jesus did, rather than attempt to cast out the evil act.

There is a difference between demonic activity and demons themselves; and for all practical purposes, demons are not "produced" by any human volition - rather, demons are spirits beings and have been treated as such.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=181454.msg3013769#msg3013769 date=1225315142]Your above quotation highlights why you do not understand my statement or think that my asertions are unclear or abstract. A spiritual voiltion is used in the sense that this volition is from the spirit. A voiltion that came from the spirit is not spirit. I can say that that your books or articles are the work of pilgrim. How then will one interpret such clear statements to mean that your books or articles is pilgrim. i can also say that these are Pilgrim thoughts and it will be incorrect to say that because I used that expression it means that the thoughts of pilgrim is pilgrim. I guess the question is how is spiritual volition not spirit?. I will give an answer if it will help to make things clearer. I do not speak on spiritual matters that I have no practical experience and thus I am not theorising.[/quote]I know the difference between a volition and a spirit - you have been asserting that a demon is a volition and yet have been unable to show any substance to that assertion.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=181454.msg3013769#msg3013769 date=1225315142]I have seen both demons and spirits. When earthly explanations fail to make a meaning, then I can only hope that those who are interested in these matters will have their own experience. Then these questions will then be laid to rest because the individual can easily observe a spirit forming a demon and the demon acting independent of the spirit. Stay blessed[/quote]If you define a demon as a "volition", you have seen none. People only observe the results of human volitions, not the volitions themselves, because volitions are abstract. A spirit is not abstract because it is a being that is ethereal and incorporeal, yet possessing a definite form. However, a demon also is a type of spirit which can exercise a volition on its own - it is not a "volition" exercising a "volition" - and in as much as you have kept up the idea that a spirit "produces" a demon, you have not seen any demons.

Cheers.

Pepeye:
Tithe is the one-tenth of your increase;

it’s the percent of your income

and anything else God blesses you with,

it’s a commitment which every child of God


should faithfully observe

In a way your tithe is the surest ways

to experience prosperity in the kingdom of God

Great stuff. However, let's be fair and clear to our brethren:

I'm glad to read a very crucial element about tithing in yours: "commitment". Whatever percentage one sets aside, the real test is whether they know that experience in a very real way - consistently, commitedly, and lovingly.

Second, I don't know - and I can't affirm what I don't know doctrinally or by experience. But I'm not so sure if tithes are the "surest ways" to experience prosperity in the kingdom of God. The answers are varied, because prosperity comes in various ways and is a relative word; as well, God in His sovereignty has blessed some people in real prosperous ways who have been in very difficult circumstances in service (of those I know, I can't say for certain if they were tithers). However, I have seen people in very prosperous ministries and lives who do not emphasize tithes - rather, their emphasis are righteousness and holiness: they have maintained that very emphasis, and remarkably, God has proven His blessings in extra-ordinary ways in their lives.

Blessings.

@m_nwankwo,

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=181454.msg3013283#msg3013283 date=1225307635]Does God have a WILL? Does human spirits have a will?[/quote]Please read my pointers and refrain from these immature questions. Have I ever denied that God or humans have wills? Was that question a sort of cop-out? If anything, you have failed to answer the simple question I raised there - and I see that question as a mere pretence to evade the gist there.

Is God a "will" that creates other "wills" which in turn have their own "wills"?

That is a simple question that should not elicite an evasion. "Is God a will?" is different from 'does God have a will?'

It is one thing for someone to be something, and for another to have something - they are not the same.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=181454.msg3013283#msg3013283 date=1225307635]I have already stated that the creation of spirit was an act of will of God. And this spirit has a free will. Do you dispute that?.[/quote]It seems these are mere diversions. Dear m_nwankwo, if I would dispute that, I would have started arguing that already. Why would I be reading issues which are irrelevant to the points being discussed here? I appeal that we just face the real issues and refrain from these diversions.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=181454.msg3013283#msg3013283 date=1225307635]If God has a will and created a spirit that has a will, it is correct to say that the God by his will created a spirit that has a will.[/quote]Are you not confirming what I just stated above? For someone to have a "will" is different from that person being the "will".

                Is God a "will"?

                different from

            Does God have a "will"?

or yet again:

God IS a Will

different from

God HAS a will

From your quote above, you are not addressing my question - "Is God a "will" that creates other "wills" which in turn have their own "wills"?" All this is because you are mixing up your discussion on the definition you gave of "volition" - and a volition is simply the exercise of a will. A demon is NOT a volition - you disagree, but have not been able to show precisely how it is a volition.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=181454.msg3013283#msg3013283 date=1225307635]The will of God is not the will of man. I clearly stated that the expression of the free will of the spirit or evil spiritul volition are demons which have a will of their own but are not spiritual.[/quote]Hang on, dear. What you are saying is the same unanswered theory:

         a demon = a volition

And my question was:

        --  does a volition have a personality?

In other words:

        --  does a "free will" have a personality?

Or, in yet other words:

        --  does a volition have a volition?

These theorizing are just going round in circles and now appearing to spin out of the pointers being raised here. You haven't been able to show how a volition has a personality; or how a volition has a volition. We read the assertions; but so far they have been floating and not actually showing any substance.

Please bear in mind the questions I'm asking - I have not asked you if God HAS a will; rather, I asked you if God IS a will that creates other "wills" which in turn have their own "wills". If you say yes, then are you defining God as a "will" - in which case you're saying that God is a "will" which has a "will"?

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=181454.msg3013283#msg3013283 date=1225307635]That distinction was made in my earlier posts. The free will in man is not the same with the will that is in the spiritual volition or demon. Just curiious.[/quote]What then is the difference in simple terms?  Lol, I'm seeing another contradiction here again O.   First, you are the one who has said that a demon is not spiritual - how come now you are the same one who is alluding to the spiritual volition as a demon ("the spiritual volition or demon"?!?

You see, the problem here is that once you begin to theorise on these matters, you will end up confusing matters for yourself and make assertions  which you cannot defend. These matters are already showing up in your rejoinders.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=181454.msg3013283#msg3013283 date=1225307635]Have you seen a demon? Have you seen a spirit? If you have describe them. Stay blessed.[/quote]Easy way to duck these issues, eh? Lol. . . m_nwankwo, I have not seen a demon; but I have seen a spirit. Further, I have not seen a demon, but I have seen their manifestations, and also read well documented evidences of their diabolical operations.

Now, dear sir, which one of these two have you seen - a demon or a spirit?

Perhaps, you have not seen a demon - and that is understandable: because you only see them as a volition of the human spirit. Then I shall come back and lead you to your own summations.

Bless.