pilgrim.1:

Why don't you then share yours and let's see? I really don't understand how you could be referring to others' inputs as "conceptual juggling and maradona style theologising . . . sophistry" when you have not shared anything. Your views are welcome - and it would make more sense if you shared them before dismissing others' inputs.

how does one determine if the possession is by a spirit or by one of God's messengers??

Let me attempt to address some of the issues:

Actually I'm interested in knowing what people out there think is the real anatomy of the HUMAN BEING.  By which I mean the total being, body soul spirit etc.  What are their relative functions and how could it be possible for a foreign entity to then either 'possess' or 'afflict' such a Being? 
Can these be explained as forms of Demon possession too?

The human being is a spirit, a specie that has its origin in the kingdom of God or what is often refered to as heaven or the spiritual creation. Their are several worlds (non-material and material) between this spiritual kingdom and our part of the universe to which the earth belongs to.  A spirit that is to incarnate on earth is first born into these other worlds (material and non-material). Birth into each of these worlds means that the spirit is "enveloped" with a body belonging to each of these  worlds. Each of these bodies is an instrument to enable the spirit experience in each of these worlds. Therefore prior to birth on earth, a human spirit has several of these bodies. A spirit enveloped in one or several of these non-earthly bodies is called a soul.  When in addition to these non-material and material bodies  a human spirit also acquires a physical body through earthly birth, then he is a human being in flesh and blood. Therefore it is the spirit that is the essence of man, all others are bodies or cloacks that enable the essence to experience in whichever enviroment it founds itself. Thus on earth, the spirit hears, sees, feels, etc through the physical body and its organs, in the astral world the spirit experiences through the astral body and its organs, in non-material worlds the spirit experiences through the non material bodies and in heaven, the spirit experiences with a spiritual body but not through the spiritual body since the spiritual body with its faculties of perception is the spirit itself. Thus the journey to the kingdom of God or heaven involve the discarding of these non spiritual cloacks or bodies. It is only when the spirit has no other bodies or cloaks of other species does it enter the kingdom of God as a self conscious human spirit with a name and personality. Every body or species that is not spiritual can only cling to the spirit but are not part of the spirit. A human spirit that lives according to the laws of God will be able to discard these non spiritual bodies whereas others who sin against God will have their spirits "chained" by these non earthly cloaks.  The shedding of these non spiritual cloaks or bodies depends on the purity of the spirit, that is, how it stands both in knowledge and obedience to the laws of God. As the spirit develops or matures, it glows through these cloaks, thus a spirtually advanced human being can radiate its beauty through these cloaks such that these bodies shine and radiate a beauty that cannot be described in earthly words. The very opposite is true for evil human beings because their bodies look very ugly and in many instances disfigured. These descriptions do not apply to the physical bodies but to other bodies finer than the earthly body. Thus a very handsome man in the earthly sense can have a disfigured and ugly non earthly bodies, and the soul of an earthly ugly man can have supernatural beauty. We all carry our nature in our bodies and a man gifted with non earthly perceptions can see these things which often show that most people are the very opposite of what they potray themselves to be. If it becomes necessary, I will paint a picture of how the spirit works through these bodies including the physical body.

What is Demon possession?

I don't buy all that body housing the soul stuff.  It sounds like nonsense to me, to be frank

I guess the first question is what is a demon and what is possesion. Demons are forms produced by evil voiltions of men. That is, demons came into existence when a human spirit uses his free will to generate evil. These evil has forms and that is what are demons. The thought and thought forms produced by the brain does not belong here. It is the spirit that produces demons through the misapplication of its free will. There are several varieties of demons,  those of lust, fear, hatred, envy, jealosy etc. These different species amalgamate and form very powerful power centers  and from these centers they influence those who produced them and those whose inner conviction in the power of God is not strong. These power centers of evil wip up distraut, hatred, immorality, etc that influence many people with a power that overpowers them and predisposes them to evil acts which they never thought they are capable of doing. Witches and wizards in their varied forms are demons. Human beings have also created demons of worship. These are demons of worship or belief. Demons of worship are the most dangerous because they masqurade as agents of God, work "miracles" and thus many fall prey without being conscious of it until they depart this life or they cross the path of a called one who cuts off the connection of the demon with the evil power centers such that these demons cannot demonstrate their "powers" anymore. However a human being can only be influenced by demons but not possed. The reason is that demons  as powerful as they are are not spiritual entities and thus cannot take possesion of a spirit, there is an ubridgeable barrier due to differences in species.

Possesion is when a departed human spirit ( that is a soul), often an evil one takes temporal or permanent control of the physical body of a human being. The intruding spirit has temporal or permanet control of the brain such that the original owner is left with little or no control of the brain. Therefore in all cases of possesion, their is a distortion of brain activity. Such distortions in brain activity may manifest in madness, dual personality etc but it will be a gross error to ascribe all cases of madness, dual personality to spiritul possesion; some of these cases have physical or biochemical basis. That means that only one who is called by God in these matters can make a judjement in each case and earthly scientists can then verify what such a called one stated. One thing is however certain, some in psychiatric homes (mad people) are suffering  not because of a physical or biochemical brain problem but rather due to spiritual possesion. The spirit controls the physical body and its brain through the blood or more precisely through the physically invincible radiations of the blood. Indolence, occult/mystical training or experiments, sin, hypnosis, ecstasy, drugs etc can alter the radiations of the blood that make possesion by a departed evil spirit possible. A normal human being who lives in the sense of the laws of GOD cannot be possed by an alien departed evil spiirt, even an attempt at possesion is eliminated from the very start since such a human being is surronded by an impenatrable non-physically visible wall to which evil human souls cannot penatrate through.


A possed one can be cured easily. However like all healings it requires the participation of one called for it, that is a person who God have given the ability to cast out the intruding human soul.  Such a called one does not need fasting, exorcism, incantations etc. A simple prayer to God, the almighty creator by such a called one will not only cast out the evil intruder and restore the health of the afflicted human being but also send such an evil intruder to nether regions where it actually belong so that it will not have a new opportunity to torment other human beings in flesh and blood. Stay blessed.

m_nwankwo:

Let me attempt to address some of the issues:
The human being is a spirit, a specie that has its origin in the kingdom of God or what is often refered to as heaven or the spiritual creation. Their are several worlds (non-material and material) between this spiritual kingdom and our part of the universe to which the earth belongs to.  A spirit that is to incarnate on earth is first born into these other worlds (material and non-material). Birth into each of these worlds means that the spirit is "enveloped" with a body belonging to each of these  worlds. Each of these bodies is an instrument to enable the spirit experience in each of these worlds. Therefore prior to birth on earth, a human spirit has several of these bodies. A spirit enveloped in one or several of these non-earthly bodies is called a soul.  When in addition to these non-material and material bodies  a human spirit also acquires a physical body through earthly birth, then he is a human being in flesh and blood. Therefore it is the spirit that is the essence of man, all others are bodies or cloacks that enable the essence to experience in whichever enviroment it founds itself. Thus on earth, the spirit hears, sees, feels, etc through the physical body and its organs, in the astral world the spirit experiences through the astral body and its organs, in non-material worlds the spirit experiences through the non material bodies and in heaven, the spirit experiences with a spiritual body but not through the spiritual body since the spiritual body with its faculties of perception is the spirit itself. Thus the journey to the kingdom of God or heaven involve the discarding of these non spiritual cloacks or bodies. It is only when the spirit has no other bodies or cloaks of other species does it enter the kingdom of God as a self conscious human spirit with a name and personality. Every body or species that is not spiritual can only cling to the spirit but are not part of the spirit. A human spirit that lives according to the laws of God will be able to discard these non spiritual bodies whereas others who sin against God will have their spirits "chained" by these non earthly cloaks.  The shedding of these non spiritual cloaks or bodies depends on the purity of the spirit, that is, how it stands both in knowledge and obedience to the laws of God. As the spirit develops or matures, it glows through these cloaks, thus a spirtually advanced human being can radiate its beauty through these cloaks such that these bodies shine and radiate a beauty that cannot be described in earthly words. The very opposite is true for evil human beings because their bodies look very ugly and in many instances disfigured. These descriptions do not apply to the physical bodies but to other bodies finer than the earthly body. Thus a very handsome man in the earthly sense can have a disfigured and ugly non earthly bodies, and the soul of an earthly ugly man can have supernatural beauty. We all carry our nature in our bodies and a man gifted with non earthly perceptions can see these things which often show that most people are the very opposite of what they potray themselves to be. If it becomes necessary, I will paint a picture of how the spirit works through these bodies including the physical body.

When you talk about these cloaks/bodies are you being metaphorical or are you being literal?

Pastor AIO:

When you talk about these cloaks/bodies are you being metaphorical or are you being literal?

I used them in a literal sense. Stay blessed.

m_nwankwo:

I guess the first question is what is a demon and what is possesion. Demons are forms produced by evil voiltions of men. That is, demons came into existence when a human spirit uses his free will to generate evil.

If the topic is about the possibility of a Christian being demon-possessed, that is something else you are projecting there. Demons are not "forms" produced by men's volitions - however good or evil such volitions may be. Demons are diabolical spirit beings with their own wills and personalities. Biblically,

        ●   they are diabolical spirits [Matt. 8:16]

        ●   they exercise the will to plead [Matt. 8:31]

        ●   they are diabolical spirits under the authority of the Devil
            [Beelzebub - Matt. 12:24]

        ●   the devil himself and his agents are real spirit beings
            [Matt. 25:41]

        ●   they respond to the authority of the Lordship of Jesus Christ
            [Matt. 17:18]

Demon-possession is best understood when people try not to confuse the nature and real existence of demons.

what a question? All the so called christians on NairaLand, what spirit is controlling and possessing them if not the tons of demons out in this world?

tumfulu:

what a question? All the so called christians on NairaLand, what spirit is controlling and possessing them if not the tons of demons out in this world?

Would it not be unfair to make such bland statements? What spirit is behind such allegations?

pilgrim.1:

If the topic is about the possibility of a Christian being demon-possessed, that is something else you are projecting there. Demons are not "forms" produced by men's volitions - however good or evil such volitions may be. Demons are diabolical spirit beings with their own wills and personalities. Biblically,

        ●   they are diabolical spirits [Matt. 8:16]

        ●   they exercise the will to plead [Matt. 8:31]

        ●   they are diabolical spirits under the authority of the Devil
            [Beelzebub - Matt. 12:24]

        ●   the devil himself and his agents are real spirit beings
            [Matt. 25:41]

        ●   they respond to the authority of the Lordship of Jesus Christ
            [Matt. 17:18]

Demon-possession is best understood when people try not to confuse the nature and real existence of demons.

I only answered Pastor AIO question on what is a demon. You can agree or disagree with what I defined demon to be. I am certain that demons are the evil voilitions of men. Why? Because I have personally seen demons, and several other entities in their various shapes and forms, demon affliction, spiritual possesion etc. Demons have form, personality and a will of their own. Ofcourse my statement of personal knowledge of these things may be regarded as just claims by some. However, I am certain that anyone who have been permitted to see into the worlds of demons, spiritual possesion, and similar things can easily recognise my descriptions.

Sure, demons, spirits, or whatever entity will bow  to the authority and lordship of Jesus Christ. However it is not every person that is gifted with the ability to heal or cast out evil spirits with the power of Jesus Christ. Only a very select few have this ability and that marks such individuals as called ones. Those who are not given this ability by God and they dabble into these things because they believe that they have the power of God will only end up been possed by the very spirit they are trying to cast out and in many instances become  mad or suffer serious damage both to their physical bodies and their souls. The ability to cast out allien spirits, heal the sick, cure the demon afflicted is a special gift of God.

@m_nwankwo,

m_nwankwo:

I only answered Pastor AIO question on what is a demon. You can agree or disagree with what I defined demon to be. I am certain that demons are the evil voilitions of men. Why? Because I have personally seen demons, and several other entities in their various shapes and forms, demon affliction, spiritual possesion etc. Demons have form, personality and a will of their own. Ofcourse my statement of personal knowledge of these things may be regarded as just claims by some. However, I am certain that anyone who have been permitted to see into the worlds of demons, spiritual possesion, and similar things can easily recognise my descriptions.

Sure, demons, spirits, or whatever entity will bow to the authority and lordship of Jesus Christ. However it is not every person that is gifted with the ability to heal or cast out evil spirits with the power of Jesus Christ. Only a very select few have this ability and that marks such individuals as called ones. Those who are not given this ability by God and they dabble into these things because they believe that they have the power of God will only end up been possed by the very spirit they are trying to cast out and in many instances become mad or suffer serious damage both to their physical bodies and their souls. The ability to cast out allien spirits, heal the sick, cure the demon afflicted is a special gift of God.

What exactly do you mean by "volition", please?

pilgrim.1:

@m_nwankwo,

What exactly do you mean by "volition", please?

Voilition is an expression of the free will by the spirit, and in this context, it is the expression of the free will by the human spirit.

m_nwankwo:

Voilition is an expression of the free will by the spirit, and in this context, it is the expression of the free will by the human spirit.

I think that is where you have mixed up these matters. Since I did not want to misread you, it was pertinent to seek your definition in plain and simple terms. Here's why I think you've got it all wrong:

1. a volition (defined by you as "an expression of the free will" is not the same thing as a spirit being. The moment one confuses these terms, they enter into very vague ideas.

2. while a volition tends to be a human expression (such as a choice), a spirit being has its own personality and is different from a "volition".

3. volitions are qualities expressed by human beings; whereas, spirit beings are the creation of God.

4. every major reference to demons point to spirit beings, not in any instance would anyone be able to defend the idea that they are "volitions" - not in one instance, regardless what religious perspective they hold.

That said, if one holds the idea that a demon is a "volition", then you have contradicted yourself in your input - because while speaking of an "expression of free will", you also hinted that demons are spirit beings actually, which is quite a different matter altogether from what you posited earlier:

(a) [list]

m_nwankwo:
I am certain that demons are the evil voilitions of men.

[/list]

In other words, if demons are "evil volitions", do these "evil volitions" (ie., evil choices/decisions) have their own personalities and wills? Does a "volition" have a personality? That's what you seem to be saying in (b) below:

(b) [list]

m_nwankwo:
Demons have form, personality and a will of their own.

[/list]

Now, it even more than gets interesting, because you again came back to confirm what I defined earlier, that demons are spirits:

(c) [list]

m_nwankwo:
Sure, demons, spirits, or whatever entity will bow  to the authority and lordship of Jesus Christ.
>snip<
Those who are not given this ability by God and they dabble into these things because they believe that they have the power of God will only end up been possed by the very spirit they are trying to cast out and in many instances become  mad or suffer serious damage both to their physical bodies and their souls. The ability to cast out allien spirits, heal the sick, cure the demon afflicted is a special gift of God.

[/list]

In other words, the idea that demons are "volitions" seem to have been overshadowed by the fact that they are rather "spirits". It is just going to be difficult defending that assumption of equating them as "volitions" - such an assumption does not fit into the definition of demons as spirits.

Cheers.

I think that is where you have mixed up these matters. Since I did not want to misread you, it was pertinent to seek your definition in plain and simple terms. Here's why I think you've got it all wrong:

1. a volition (defined by you as "an expression of the free will" is not the same thing as a spirit being. The moment one confuses these terms, they enter into very vague ideas.

2. while a volition tends to be a human expression (such as a choice), a spirit being has its own personality and is different from a "volition".

3. volitions are qualities expressed by human beings; whereas, spirit beings are the creation of God.

4. every major reference to demons point to spirit beings, not in any instance would anyone be able to defend the idea that they are "volitions" - not in one instance, regardless what religious perspective they hold.

That said, if one holds the idea that a demon is a "volition", then you have contradicted yourself in your input - because while speaking of an "expression of free will", you also hinted that demons are spirit beings actually, which is quite a different matter altogether from what you posited earlier:

Thanks for asking mean to define the terms I used. I think it is helpful. Voilitions as I already defined are not spirits or what you call "spirit beings" but rather expressions of the spirit or "spirit beings". They are not creations of God but the "creations" of men.

That said, if one holds the idea that a demon is a "volition", then you have contradicted yourself in your input - because while speaking of an "expression of free will", you also hinted that demons are spirit beings actually, which is quite a different matter altogether from what you posited earlier:

There is no contradiction. I have never hinted that demons or evil voilitions are spirit beings. I said that demons have a personality, a form and a will of their own. There would have been a contradition if it is only spirit beings that have personality and a will of their own. However personality and will of their own is not  exclusive to spirit beings alone. Their are other species that do have a personality and a will of their own. Animal souls for instance have a will of their own even though they are not spirit beings. But in order not to digress, let me remain with demons. How are demons formed? A movement of the spirit or spiritual voilition attracts the power of God that enables this spiritual movement to form or create forms. One of the event in the creation of forms is that that form is infused with a self activating core, it is this self activating core (which is not spiritual) that gives evil spiritual voiltion or demon its will. Just one or two examples may suffice: a man is filled with so much envy or hatred against his neighbour, this envy if it is heartfelt set off a a process that makes this envy to have a form, a personality and  a will. This envy form will carry the face of the man, even wear his favourite dress, talk like him etc. Because this envy form has acquired a self acting core, it does not only attack based only on the will of the producer but can attack  whenever hatred or envy is, independent of distance, nations and races. In addition if the human form of this demon will not be so effective in the attacks, it can take the shape of a cat, a lion, or a vulture with a vulture head or a vulture with a human face etc. It is still the same process that make mystics to claim that Jesus schooled in india and all the nonsense. The spiritual volition of such mystics across millenia has created a demon that says that it is "Jesus" and followers tap into their creation and recieve revealations from their creation and yet unaware that the "Jesus" that gives them revealation, teachings, healings etc is not Jesus, the son of God but a demon. Every specie wheather created by God or "created" by creatures of God has distinct colour and sound. He who is called in these matters can easily discriminate. It is not easy as many imagine and that is the main reason why the non earthly perception of most people are blocked. It is to prevent them for going astray, since in these demon worlds deception is the core activity in which everything is possible and impossible.

Finally in my previous posts, I clearly distinguished between spirit possesion and demon affliction. An alien spirit can posses a human being but a demon cannot. A demon can afflict or influence a human being but incapable of taking posssesion of the human body since a demon is not a spiritual being. Only a spirit can possess a body inhabited by another spirit. I also stated that the intruding spirit can be cast out easily and the demon afflicted can be cured by one who stands in the authority and power of God. Spirit possesion and demon affliction are two different things. Stay blessed.

@m_nwankwo,

m_nwankwo:

Thanks for asking mean to define the terms I used. I think it is helpful. Voilitions as I already defined are not spirits or what you call "spirit beings" but rather expressions of the spirit or "spirit beings". They are not creations of God but the "creations" of men.

Just for the sake of simplicity, and having read through yours, we should just keep to the meaning of demons defined as spirit beings. There just is no way anyone is going to redefine them to be "volitions", however one may use that term. This is because, even when you tried to explain volition, it contradicts the basic meaning of beings that have their own will - and by going round this term, one is basically wondering that you're defining the same terms and confusing them at the same time.

         ●  A volition is simply a choice one exercises.

            Please go check the meaning of a volition - you will see that there's no way
            anyone could uphold that idea. It is merely an idea; and so far there doesn't
            seem to be any coherent defence of that term as applicable to "demons".

         ●  A demon has its own volition and will.

            To say that a demon is the result of another person's expression of free will
            is to project the idea that this freewill also has a will of their own. Hence,
            it is incoherent to say that a "will" also has its own "will" - for a volition is not
            a will and not a spirit or being.

These two issues are clear; and like I said, even when you check the references available for any understanding of the term "demons", you will not find any such which defines it the way you have been doing. Not only so, even when you define it as a "volition", it is not clear that you have been consistent. Care to make things as simple yet?

Look again at this assertion:

m_nwankwo:

There is no contradiction. I have never hinted that demons or evil voilitions are spirit beings. I said that demons have a personality, a form and a will of their own.

Wait. If "demons" have already been defined as "volitions", my question has been this:[list]

pilgrim.1:

Does a "volition" have a personality?

[/list]

If you're telling me that a demon is a "volition", does a volition have a "personality"? How do you defend the idea that a "volition" has a personality?

Just for the sake of simplicity, and having read through yours, we should just keep to the meaning of demons defined as spirit beings. There just is no way anyone is going to redefine them to be "volitions", however one may use that term. This is because, even when you tried to explain volition, it contradicts the basic meaning of beings that have their own will - and by going round this term, one is basically wondering that you're defining the same terms and confusing them at the same time.

● A volition is simply a choice one exercises.

Please go check the meaning of a volition - you will see that there's no way
anyone could uphold that idea. It is merely an idea; and so far there doesn't
seem to be any coherent defence of that term as applicable to "demons".

● A demon has its own volition and will.

To say that a demon is the result of another person's expression of free will
is to project the idea that this freewill also has a will of their own. Hence,
it is incoherent to say that a "will" also has its own "will" - for a volition is not
a will and not a spirit or being.

These two issues are clear; and like I said, even when you check the references available for any understanding of the term "demons", you will not find any such which defines it the way you have been doing. Not only so, even when you define it as a "volition", it is not clear that you have been consistent. Care to make things as simple yet?

I never defined demons as spirit beings. I have given you a definition of what I know demons to be. And my definition have been consistent. I also think that I am as simple as possible. I am aware of the definition of voilition in the normal sense but the purpose of me giving it a definition is for you to understand what I mean by using the word. There is nothing incoherent in the statement that a spiritual expression can have a personality and will. Spirit for instance is a creation of God. God has a will and his creation (spirit) also have a will. However the will of God is not the will of man that God created. In a similar way, the spirit has a will and the demon that the spirit "created" also have a will but the free will of man is different from the will of the demon. Thus a will can give rise to an entity with a will.

If you're telling me that a demon is a "volition", does a volition have a "personality"? How do you defend the idea that a "volition" has a personality?

Yes spiritual voilition have personality. I have stated that before. Read again my brief description of an envy demon and a demon believed by mystics to be "Jesus". Not only personality, demons can kill, "heal", make prophecies, curse illnes etc. Witches and wizards are demons and they do have a personality. Stay blessed.

@m_nwankwo,

m_nwankwo:

I never defined demons as spirit beings.

I actually did; and not in one instance did I say that you gave that definition.

m_nwankwo:

I have given you a definition of what I know demons to be. And my definition have been consistent. I also think that I am as simple as possible. I am aware of the definition of voilition in the normal sense but the purpose of me giving it a definition is for you to understand what I mean by using the word. There is nothing incoherent in the statement that a spiritual expression can have a personality and will. Spirit for instance is a creation of God. God has a will and his creation (spirit) also have a will. However the will of God is not the will of man that God created. In a similar way, the spirit has a will and the demon that the spirit "created" also have a will but the free will of man is different from the will of the demon. Thus a will can give rise to an entity with a will.

Yes spiritual voilition have personality. I have stated that before. Read again my brief description of an envy demon and a demon believed by mystics to be "Jesus". Not only personality, demons can kill, "heal", make prophecies, curse illnes etc. Witches and wizards are demons and they do have a personality. Stay blessed.

The problem here is that you have been using terms which you have yet failed to define or clarify. I asked you pointedly:

pilgrim.1:


● A volition is simply a choice one exercises.

Please go check the meaning of a volition - you will see that there's no way
anyone could uphold that idea. It is merely an idea; and so far there doesn't
seem to be any coherent defence of that term as applicable to "demons".

I did not see where you returned to have checked the meaning of "volition". You only assert this term, keep emphasizing it and yet fail to do the simple thing of verifying your claim. It would be nice if you could calm down and check the meaning of that word "volition" before you try to apply it to "demon". Do you care to do so, please?

m_nwankwo:

I never defined demons as spirit beings. . . . the demon that the spirit "created" also have a will but the free will of man is different from the will of the demon. Thus a will can give rise to an entity with a will.

Yes spiritual voilition have personality.

If a volition can have a Will then A Will can have a volition too, abi. I don't know. I thought volition meant will. So how a volition has a will I don't know, but I suspect that Nwankwo is using the word in a different sense.

I suspect that what he is saying is akin to elementals and thoughtforms that you find in some (not so) occult theories, like the Theosophists. Check this out for instance.
LET us turn now to the second effect of thought, the creation of a definite form. Students of the occult are acquainted with the idea of the elemental essence, that strange half-intelligent life which surrounds us in all directions, vivifying the matter of the mental and astral planes. This matter thus animated responds very readily to the influence of human thought, and every impulse sent out, either from the mental body or from the astral body of man, immediately clothes itself in a temporary vehicle of this vitalized matter. Such a thought or impulse becomes for the time a kind of living creature, the thought-force being the soul, and the vivified matter the body. Instead of using the somewhat clumsy paraphrase, " astral or mental matter ensouled by the monadic essence at the stage of one of the elemental kingdoms ", theosophical writers often, for brevity's sake, call this quickened matter simply elemental essence; and sometimes they speak of the thought-form as " an elemental ". There may be infinite variety in the color and shape of such elementals or thought-forms, for each thought draws round it the matter which is appropriate for its expression, and sets that matter into vibration in harmony with its own; so that the character of the thought decides its color, and the study of its variations and combinations is an exceedingly interesting one.

25. If the man's thought or feeling is directly connected with someone else, the resultant thought-form moves towards that person and discharges itself upon his astral and mental bodies. If the man's thought is about himself, or is based upon a personal feeling, as the vast majority of thoughts are, it hovers round its creator and is always ready to react upon him whenever he is for a moment in a passive condition. For example, a man who yields himself to thoughts of impurity may forget all about them while he is engaged in the daily routine of his business, even though the resultant forms are hanging round him in a heavy cloud, because his attention is otherwise directed and his astral body is therefore not impressible by any other rate of vibration than its own. When, however, the marked vibration slackens and the man rests after his labors and leaves his mind blank as regards definite thought, he is very likely to feel the vibration of impurity stealing insidiously upon him. If the consciousness of the man be to any extent awakened, he may perceive this and cry out that he is being tempted by the devil; yet the truth is that the temptation is from without only in appearance, since it is nothing but the natural reaction upon him of his own thought-forms.

From here: http://www.anandgholap.net/Thought_Forms-AB_CWL.htm

Another Idea that comes pretty close is Richard Dawkins' concept of the Meme.
A meme (pronounced /miːm/)[1] consists of any idea or behavior that can pass from one person to another by learning or imitation. Examples include thoughts, ideas, theories, gestures, practices, fashions, habits, songs, and dances. Memes propagate themselves and can move through the cultural sociosphere in a manner similar to the contagious behavior of a virus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

I actually did; and not in one instance did I say that you gave that definition.

Ok

The problem here is that you have been using terms which you have yet failed to define or clarify. I asked you pointedly:

I have defined as clearly as possible what i meant by voilition. The problem seems that you do not accept my definition and the context I use the word "volition".

I did not see where you returned to have checked the meaning of "volition". You only assert this term, keep emphasizing it and yet fail to do the simple thing of verifying your claim. It would be nice if you could calm down and check the meaning of that word "volition" before you try to apply it to "demon". Do you care to do so, please?

You have already quoted the meaning of the word "volition" and that is correct in the normal sense. I didnot use voiltion in the normal english language sense and that is why I defined what I meant. Your argument to my definition is that an expression of free will cannot have a  will of its own. I then countered that by saying that a will can create a will that have a will. I used the example of God and his creation, the spirit. Is there anything unclear in that example? If the word voiltion is the problem, replace it with spiritual expressions or exersise of the free will by the spirit or spiritual decisions by the spirit. Stay blessed.

@Pastor

If a volition can have a Will then A Will can have a volition too, abi.  I don't know.  I thought volition meant will.  So how a volition has a will I don't know, but I suspect that Nwankwo is using the word in a different sense. 

Voiltion in the sense I used it means an act of will of the spirit. The act is not the spirt or the spirit will but an expression of this will.

suspect that what he is saying is akin to elementals and thoughtforms that you find in some (not so) occult theories, like the Theosophists.  Check this out for instance.
LET us turn now to the second effect of thought, the creation of a definite form. Students of the occult are acquainted with the idea of the elemental essence, that strange half-intelligent life which surrounds us in all directions, vivifying the matter of the mental and astral planes. This matter thus animated responds very readily to the influence of human thought, and every impulse sent out, either from the mental body or from the astral body of man, immediately clothes itself in a temporary vehicle of this vitalized matter. Such a thought or impulse becomes for the time a kind of living creature, the thought-force being the soul, and the vivified matter the body. Instead of using the somewhat clumsy paraphrase, " astral or mental matter ensouled by the monadic essence at the stage of one of the elemental kingdoms ", theosophical writers often, for brevity's sake, call this quickened matter simply elemental essence; and sometimes they speak of the thought-form as " an elemental ". There may be infinite variety in the color and shape of such elementals or thought-forms, for each thought draws round it the matter which is appropriate for its expression, and sets that matter into vibration in harmony with its own; so that the character of the thought decides its color, and the study of its variations and combinations is an exceedingly interesting one.

25.                                If the man's thought or feeling is directly connected with someone else, the resultant thought-form moves towards that person and discharges itself upon his astral and mental bodies. If the man's thought is about himself, or is based upon a personal feeling, as the vast majority of thoughts are, it hovers round its creator and is always ready to react upon him whenever he is for a moment in a passive condition. For example, a man who yields himself to thoughts of impurity may forget all about them while he is engaged in the daily routine of his business, even though the resultant forms are hanging round him in a heavy cloud, because his attention is otherwise directed and his astral body is therefore not impressible by any other rate of vibration than its own. When, however, the marked vibration slackens and the man rests after his labors and leaves his mind blank as regards definite thought, he is very likely to feel the vibration of impurity stealing insidiously upon him. If the consciousness of the man be to any extent awakened, he may perceive this and cry out that he is being tempted by the devil; yet the truth is that the temptation is from without only in appearance, since it is nothing but the natural reaction upon him of his own thought-forms.

Thanks fro the quotes. Demons are not thought forms or elementals. The above citation is however a fairly accurate description of thought forms.Thought forms are less powerful and have no will of their own, they are entirely dependent on the will of the producer. Demons do have a will of their own and can be dependent and independent of the spirit that produced them. Stay blessed.

@m_nwankwo,

m_nwankwo:

Ok

I have defined as clearly as possible what i meant by voilition. The problem seems that you do not accept my definition and the context I use the word "volition".

Far from it. I could either choose to follow your definition in context; or otherwise question it where it has been inconsistent with the whole body of your argument. It is that second aspect (inconsistency) that brings me asking questions - which up until now I have not found answers to.

m_nwankwo:

You have already quoted the meaning of the word "volition" and that is correct in the normal sense. I didnot use voiltion in the normal english language sense and that is why I defined what I meant. Your argument to my definition is that an expression of free will cannot have a  will of its own. I then countered that by saying that a will can create a will that have a will. I used the example of God and his creation, the spirit. Is there anything unclear in that example? If the word voiltion is the problem, replace it with spiritual expressions or exersise of the free will by the spirit or spiritual decisions by the spirit. Stay blessed.

Not only is it unclear, but also if one were to replace and keep replacing words for terms, the same inconsistency appears every single time. I'm still wondering how you would have assumed that the example you used could fit into your assumptions; whereas if we question even that, we are still left with no answers. Is God a "will" that creates other "wills" which in turn have their own "wills"? We all know these are mere theorizing and still leave huge gaps inbetween.

Even in your riposte, you still have not pointed out a source to clarify this definition of yours. Not that we don't know that a few other worldviews use such expressions (as pastor AIO has obliged); but even when we read these theories, they are just theories that still lack substance - and I could refer to so many instances in those examples and several others besides those.

If one were to define demons as "spirits", such a person has to clarify why they use such definitions - that is what I have done; and if further clarifications are desired for why that is so, I could oblige. If, on the other hand, someone says they are not spirits but rather "volitions", one should not be ambiguous where their ideas are indefensible - such as the example of God and "will".

Demons are described as spirit beings expressing their own wills/volitions - they are not "volitions"  expressing "volitions". Where you have anything to show how "volitions" have "volitions", we would be glad to consider them.

Cheers.

@Pastor AIO,

Pastor AIO:

If a volition can have a Will then A Will can have a volition too, abi. I don't know. I thought volition meant will.

That was why I kept asking the same question several times.

Pastor AIO:

So how a volition has a will I don't know, but I suspect that Nwankwo is using the word in a different sense.

Granted - the problem is that where he uses it in a different sense, that same sense is still too abstract to have any substance as yet. That is why we have more questions than answers after several times asking him to elucidate and clarify how he relates them to demons.

Pastor AIO:

I suspect that what he is saying is akin to elementals and thoughtforms that you find in some (not so) occult theories, like the Theosophists. Check this out for instance.

Well, I did not think so - and he has just said so himself above.

However, I was aware of the "elementals"; and even so, I tried to see if that was the sense in which he could have been using that term "volition"; but no - that does not seem to be the case. I might as well have had to ask how he reconciles "volition" with "elementals" if he had so used it, though.

Yet, just to show you that I was aware of these issues from other religions and perspectives, there is an akin idea of the volition in Buddhism known as "cetaná". The cetaná is simply the "volition", or 'will', and is one of the seven mental factors (cetasika). These mental factors are inseparably bound up with all consciousness, some of which are sensorial or mental impression (phassa), feeling (vedaná), perception (saññá), volition (cetaná), concentration (samádhi), vitality (jívita), and advertence (manasikára).

As for the cetasika, they are those mental concomitants which are bound up with the simultaneously arising consciousness (citta = viññána) and conditioned by its presence . Whereas in the suttas all phenomena of existence are summed up under the aspect of 5 groups:

     --  corporeality,
     --  feeling,
     --  perception,
     --  mental formations,
     --  consciousness.

It is said that there are 50 mental formations, and altogether 52 mental concomitants. 25 of these are treated as lofty qualities (either karmically wholesome or neutral), 14 karmically unwholesome, while 13 are as such karmically neutral, their karmical quality depending on whether they are associated with wholesome, unwholesome or neutral consciousness.

One could follow these ideas on and on in connection with all the other terms; but the point is that these "elementals" are very different from what is known as a "demon".

Pastor AIO:

Another Idea that comes pretty close is Richard Dawkins' concept of the Meme.
A meme (pronounced /miːm/)[1] consists of any idea or behavior that can pass from one person to another by learning or imitation. Examples include thoughts, ideas, theories, gestures, practices, fashions, habits, songs, and dances. Memes propagate themselves and can move through the cultural sociosphere in a manner similar to the contagious behavior of a virus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

Dawkins' meme is not even close. If a meme is like a virus, who has observed this meme apart from its abstract assertions? What correlation does it have with demons?

Cheers.

Not only is it unclear, but also if one were to replace and keep replacing words for terms, the same inconsistency appears every single time. I'm still wondering how you would have assumed that the example you used could fit into your assumptions; whereas if we question even that, we are still left with no answers. Is God a "will" that creates other "wills" which in turn have their own "wills"? We all know these are mere theorizing and still leave huge gaps inbetween.

Does God have a WILL? Does human spirits have a will?

Demons are described as spirit beings expressing their own wills/volitions - they are not "volitions"  expressing "volitions". Where you have anything to show how "volitions" have "volitions", we would be glad to consider them.

I have already stated that the creation of spirit was an act of will of God. And this spirit has a free will. Do you dispute that?. If God has a will and created a spirit that has a will, it is correct to say that the God by his will created a spirit that has a will. The will of God is not the will of man. I clearly stated that the expression of the free will of the spirit or evil spiritul volition are demons which have a will of their own but are not spiritual. That distinction was made in my earlier posts. The free will in man is not the same with the will that is in the spiritual volition or demon. Just curiious. Have you seen a demon? Have you seen a spirit? If you have describe them. Stay blessed.

@m_nwankwo,

m_nwankwo:

Does God have a WILL? Does human spirits have a will?

Please read my pointers and refrain from these immature questions. Have I ever denied that God or humans have wills? Was that question a sort of cop-out? If anything, you have failed to answer the simple question I raised there - and I see that question as a mere pretence to evade the gist there.

Is God a "will" that creates other "wills" which in turn have their own "wills"?

That is a simple question that should not elicite an evasion. "Is God a will?" is different from 'does God have a will?'

It is one thing for someone to be something, and for another to have something - they are not the same.

m_nwankwo:

I have already stated that the creation of spirit was an act of will of God. And this spirit has a free will. Do you dispute that?.

It seems these are mere diversions. Dear m_nwankwo, if I would dispute that, I would have started arguing that already. Why would I be reading issues which are irrelevant to the points being discussed here? I appeal that we just face the real issues and refrain from these diversions.

m_nwankwo:

If God has a will and created a spirit that has a will, it is correct to say that the God by his will created a spirit that has a will.

Are you not confirming what I just stated above? For someone to have a "will" is different from that person being the "will".

                Is God a "will"?

                different from

            Does God have a "will"?

or yet again:

God IS a Will

different from

God HAS a will

From your quote above, you are not addressing my question - "Is God a "will" that creates other "wills" which in turn have their own "wills"?" All this is because you are mixing up your discussion on the definition you gave of "volition" - and a volition is simply the exercise of a will. A demon is NOT a volition - you disagree, but have not been able to show precisely how it is a volition.

m_nwankwo:

The will of God is not the will of man. I clearly stated that the expression of the free will of the spirit or evil spiritul volition are demons which have a will of their own but are not spiritual.

Hang on, dear. What you are saying is the same unanswered theory:

         a demon = a volition

And my question was:

        --  does a volition have a personality?

In other words:

        --  does a "free will" have a personality?

Or, in yet other words:

        --  does a volition have a volition?

These theorizing are just going round in circles and now appearing to spin out of the pointers being raised here. You haven't been able to show how a volition has a personality; or how a volition has a volition. We read the assertions; but so far they have been floating and not actually showing any substance.

Please bear in mind the questions I'm asking - I have not asked you if God HAS a will; rather, I asked you if God IS a will that creates other "wills" which in turn have their own "wills". If you say yes, then are you defining God as a "will" - in which case you're saying that God is a "will" which has a "will"?

m_nwankwo:

That distinction was made in my earlier posts. The free will in man is not the same with the will that is in the spiritual volition or demon. Just curiious.

What then is the difference in simple terms?  Lol, I'm seeing another contradiction here again O.   First, you are the one who has said that a demon is not spiritual - how come now you are the same one who is alluding to the spiritual volition as a demon ("the spiritual volition or demon"?!?

You see, the problem here is that once you begin to theorise on these matters, you will end up confusing matters for yourself and make assertions  which you cannot defend. These matters are already showing up in your rejoinders.

m_nwankwo:
Have you seen a demon? Have you seen a spirit? If you have describe them. Stay blessed.

Easy way to duck these issues, eh? Lol. . . m_nwankwo, I have not seen a demon; but I have seen a spirit. Further, I have not seen a demon, but I have seen their manifestations, and also read well documented evidences of their diabolical operations.

Now, dear sir, which one of these two have you seen - a demon or a spirit?

Perhaps, you have not seen a demon - and that is understandable: because you only see them as a volition of the human spirit. Then I shall come back and lead you to your own summations.

Bless.

Please read my pointers and refrain from these immature questions. Have I ever denied that God or humans have wills? Was that question a sort of cop-out? If anything, you have failed to answer the simple question I raised there - and I see that question as a mere pretence to evade the gist there.

Is God a "will" that creates other "wills" which in turn have their own "wills"?

That is a simple question that should not elicite an evasion. "Is God a will?" is different from 'does God have a will?'

It is one thing for someone to be something, and for another to have something - they are not the same.

That question is not immature. I simply posed them to bring you to the context in which I used the expression " a will can create a will". God is not a will but WILL is an attribute of God. Spirit is not free will but free will is an attribute of the spirit. The the will of the demon is not the demon but an attribute of the demon. Besides, I never said that a demon has free will. I only stated that it has a will. And the will of the demon is that it can act independent of its producer, the spirit of man.

Hang on, dear. What you are saying is the same unanswered theory:

         a demon = a volition

And my question was:

        --  does a volition have a personality?

In other words:

        --  does a "free will" have a personality?

Or, in yet other words:

        --  does a volition have a volition?

These theorizing are just going round in circles and now appearing to spin out of the pointers being raised here. You haven't been able to show how a volition has a personality; or how a volition has a volition. We read the assertions; but so far they have been floating and not actually showing any substance.

Please bear in mind the questions I'm asking - I have not asked you if God HAS a will; rather, I asked you if God IS a will that creates other "wills" which in turn have their own "wills". If you say yes, then are you defining God as a "will" - in which case you're saying that God is a "will" which has a "will"?

You seem to equate free will with acts of free will. Free will is an atribute of the spirit that creates the acts. Demons are evil volitions or evil acts of the spirit. The attribute of the spirit that produces these evil acts is the free will. The will of a demon is not the free will of the spirit. Just an earthly picture, you can decide to write a book, go to a movie, cook etc. These activities are acts of your will but not the will itself. The book that you wrote or the food you prepared can be destroyed but the ability that produced them is intact with you. You can still use that ability (will) to write a new book or cook another dish.

What then is the difference in simple terms?  Lol, I'm seeing another contradiction here again O.   First, you are the one who has said that a demon is not spiritual - how come now you are the same one who is alluding to the spiritual volition as a demon ("the spiritual volition or demon"?!?

You see, the problem here is that once you begin to theorise on these matters, you will end up confusing matters for yourself and make assertions  which you cannot defend. These matters are already showing up in your rejoinders.

Your above quotation highlights why you do not understand my statement or think that my asertions are unclear or abstract. A spiritual voiltion is used in the sense that this volition is from the spirit. A voiltion that came from the spirit is not spirit. I can say that that your books or articles are the work of pilgrim. How then will one interpret such clear statements to mean that your books or articles is pilgrim. i can also say that these are Pilgrim thoughts and it will be incorrect to say that because I used that expression it means that the thoughts of pilgrim is pilgrim. I guess the question is how is spiritual volition not spirit?. I will give an answer if it will help to make things clearer. I do not speak on spiritual matters that I have no practical experience and thus I am not theorising.

Easy way to duck these issues, eh? Lol. . . m_nwankwo, I have not seen a demon; but I have seen a spirit. Further, I have not seen a demon, but I have seen their manifestations, and also read well documented evidences of their diabolical operations.

Now, dear sir, which one of these two have you seen - a demon or a spirit?

Perhaps, you have not seen a demon - and that is understandable: because you only see them as a volition of the human spirit. Then I shall come back and lead you to your own summations.

I have seen both demons and spirits. When earthly explanations fail to make a meaning, then I can only hope that those who are interested in these matters will have their own experience. Then these questions will then be laid to rest because the individual can easily observe a spirit forming a demon and the demon acting independent of the spirit.  Stay blessed

@m_nwankwo,

m_nwankwo:

That question is not immature. I simply posed them to bring you to the context in which I used the expression " a will can create a will". God is not a will but WILL is an attribute of God. Spirit is not free will but free will is an attribute of the spirit. The the will of the demon is not the demon but an attribute of the demon. Besides, I never said that a demon has free will. I only stated that it has a will. And the will of the demon is that it can act independent of its producer, the spirit of man.

Let's get 3 basic things set out right here. First, my thanks for your response. The 3 things are these:

1. I think now you've come round what I meant about keeping within the perameters of our discussion. That is why these two issues should be distinguished: "God IS a will" and "God HAS a will" - they are not the same, and I wondered why you had raised that question in the first place, seeing that I would not have inferred at all that God or human beings do not have wills of their own.

2. That "will" is an attribute of God is not contingent on the discussion so far; and the point has been all along to define the term 'demon'. The question is whether a demon is simply and nothing other than a "volition" or a "spirit being". Defined in yours as a volition, I raised the question as to whether a volition (as an abstract quality) also possesses a volition (abstract) of its own. It does not appear that you have yet clarified that very issue, other than the concern for the assertions which yet have had no substance to your definition itself.

3. Whatever you arrive at, it is not the quality of the "will" that matters (such as "freewill" or any other "will". The basic assumption you have always given is that a demon has a will; which again is requiring the question to be asked yet again: if a demon is a volition, does a volition have a volition?

If these terms just keep going round in circles, it would not be surprising the difficulty you encounter in clearly holding a substance to what you have been defining. Pardon me, but so far they have been theories which have been asserted; and apart from the assertions, those theories have not been able to bear any substance in reality.

m_nwankwo:

You seem to equate free will with acts of free will. Free will is an atribute of the spirit that creates the acts. Demons are evil volitions or evil acts of the spirit. The attribute of the spirit that produces these evil acts is the free will. The will of a demon is not the free will of the spirit. Just an earthly picture, you can decide to write a book, go to a movie, cook etc. These activities are acts of your will but not the will itself. The book that you wrote or the food you prepared can be destroyed but the ability that produced them is intact with you. You can still use that ability (will) to write a new book or cook another dish.

I'm sorry, but I don't hold or confuse the will for the act - and that's why I don't think it is quite right to hold that a demon is the "evil acts" of the spirit. Demons are evil spirits, not acts - the acts are influenced by the activity of diabolical spirits known as demons. These spirits known as "demons" can be cast out - that's what Jesus did, rather than attempt to cast out the evil act.

There is a difference between demonic activity and demons themselves; and for all practical purposes, demons are not "produced" by any human volition - rather, demons are spirits beings and have been treated as such.

m_nwankwo:

Your above quotation highlights why you do not understand my statement or think that my asertions are unclear or abstract. A spiritual voiltion is used in the sense that this volition is from the spirit. A voiltion that came from the spirit is not spirit. I can say that that your books or articles are the work of pilgrim. How then will one interpret such clear statements to mean that your books or articles is pilgrim. i can also say that these are Pilgrim thoughts and it will be incorrect to say that because I used that expression it means that the thoughts of pilgrim is pilgrim. I guess the question is how is spiritual volition not spirit?. I will give an answer if it will help to make things clearer. I do not speak on spiritual matters that I have no practical experience and thus I am not theorising.

I know the difference between a volition and a spirit - you have been asserting that a demon is a volition and yet have been unable to show any substance to that assertion.

m_nwankwo:

I have seen both demons and spirits. When earthly explanations fail to make a meaning, then I can only hope that those who are interested in these matters will have their own experience. Then these questions will then be laid to rest because the individual can easily observe a spirit forming a demon and the demon acting independent of the spirit. Stay blessed

If you define a demon as a "volition", you have seen none. People only observe the results of human volitions, not the volitions themselves, because volitions are abstract. A spirit is not abstract because it is a being that is ethereal and incorporeal, yet possessing a definite form. However, a demon also is a type of spirit which can exercise a volition on its own - it is not a "volition" exercising a "volition" - and in as much as you have kept up the idea that a spirit "produces" a demon, you have not seen any demons.

Cheers.

pilgrim.1:


I know the difference between a volition and a spirit - you have been asserting that a demon is a volition and yet have been unable to show any substance to that assertion.

If you define a demon as a "volition", you have seen none. People only observe the results of human volitions, not the volitions themselves, because volitions are abstract. A spirit is not abstract because it is a being that is ethereal and incorporeal, yet possessing a definite form. However, a demon also is a type of spirit which can exercise a volition on its own - it is not a "volition" exercising a "volition" - and in as much as you have kept up the idea that a spirit "produces" a demon, you have not seen any demons.

Cheers.

My dear pilgrim.1
How are you?

I will try to throw light on the issue of demons and their creators.

We Humans are creators too. But not like God, because God creates out of nothing but we can only create from something that already exists and by a borrowed power -- the neutral power of God. Therefore, actually we humans are formers not creators. But for the sake of clarity I shall keep using the "to create."

Just as humans on earth can build a house or make a car in the physical world, humans can also create, build or forms things in the beyond-- non physical worlds. Every movement of our physical body leaves a physically visible effect that can be seen on earth. Likewise every movement of our spirit leaves an effect in the spiritual world which can be seen only spiritually.

Every volition of our spirit takes on form. Perhaps it might sound strange to you if I tell you that this is how our prayers work. Prayers that arise out of earnest volitions have forms corresponding to the wish of the prayer. The lightness or the purity of this form allows it to rise upwards, it can be so pure that it can rise as far up as to the Divine plane, or to God. No mater how much high the prayer form goes, it remains connected to its creator, and through this connection, it will pour the blessings of heaven to it originator.

An earnest volition of evil also takes a form corresponding to the evil nature of the volition. If it is directed against somebody, it can harm that person, I.E -- if Mr B earnestly lusts after Mrs Z. This lust will take on a form corresponding to lust, and this form will move towards Mrs Z. This form can attach itself to Mrs. Z and harm her by making her lustfull, then from Mrs Z it will proceed downwards to hell(a plane corresponding to its heaviness), yet maintaining its connection with Mr. B and Mrs Z. But if Mrs Z is righteous, her righteousness will repel this form which then proceed downwards to hell without attaching itself to her. But this form remains connected to its creator(Mr B.) and through this connection, this form will pour the evils of hell to the originator. Mr. B will be bound to hell by this connection until he changes inwardly or repents from his evil volition.

Everything we do, think or say takes on form corresponding to its nature. The words that we speak take on form in planes of medium gross matter. The thoughts that we produce take on form in the planes of fine gross mater. But these(words and thoughts) are only produced with the physical body, and their forms easily die away, they are mere phantoms. People who are gifted to see planes of medium and fine gross matter have seen and testified that words, thoughts, and even emotions have forms and colours, I.E forms of envy always glow in dark green. Hence expressions like "He is green with envy."

But forms created by our spiritual volition, or the volitions of our spirit are not just phantoms but they are demons. They are far stronger than phantoms because they bear within them, the principle neutral power of God which only the spirit can receive and lend. Thoughts forms do not have this power because thoughts have their origin in the brain, and the brain cannot lend or pass over this power which is spiritual; the brain is physical. This is why we need to pray with our spirit and not just thoughts. Prayer by merely thinking cannever rise up to the God because it an inferior form. But prayers from our spirit can rise so high(as long as it is pure) because its form possesses the principle neutral power of God. Thus a real preayer is an earnest volition of the spirit.

Such forms (Forms arising from spiritual volition) are very powerful, they can be evil. If the volition is evil, the form of this evil volition is what people call demons. They influence their producer and other people who cannot repeal them. Anybody carrying evil of like nature within him/her can attract such forms. To these belong the furies and most of the gods that some of the ancient African tribes worshiped. As long as there are humans nourishing these evil volition, these forms will remain alive. But once there are no more such people, the forms will gradually die.  I have never seen such forms but I once dated a girl who was very clairvoyant, she could clearly see the demon that the heathens in her village worshiped. Such demons can approach people and seek to make such persons its spokesman or representative. So when the ancient igbos say that an idol wished for a certain person to become its priest. They are not lying. Such demons have strong influence on their worshipers and keeps them washipping it because only their worship and fear keeps the demon alive. But as soon as the people loses their fear and stop the demon worship the demon either dies or gets attracted to another demon of the same nature tormenting another people who still worship demons and live in fear of demons.

Demons are not spirits. Spirits are stronger than demons because spirits are creatures of God, or better said, spirits originates in the Kingdom of God. But demons are only living forms of volitions of Spirits. Just as the life and sustenance of a spirit depends of God, the life and sustenance of a demon depends on its creators. No demon can ever enter Paradise because demons are not works of God.

Lucifer also produced so many demons. His wrong volitions took on forms and tormented mankind. But even Lucifer's volition cannever be as strong as a spirit.  Spirits(human beings) only live in fear and torment of demons out of ignorance, not knowing God, and sin. Once the spirit recognizes its origin, its creator(God), and live in accord with the will of God, then such a spirit will not even need to battle with demons. His existence will dispel all demons around him. One who live in the laws of God need not battle with demons or battle with evil spirits like so many churches do. His existence will repeal all demons.

I will summarize:
All the forms produced by our spirits are living forms because they have the principle neutral power of God in them.
The spirits produce forms by its volition. Forms of good Volition take on good and beautiful forms and rise up to the plane corresponding to their lightness, and yet maintaining their connections to their creators, producers or originators. This connection remains until the producers change their volition or refrain from the good volition.

Forms of evil volition take on evil, ugly and heavy forms; they descend or sink to hell, a plane corresponding to their heaviness, yet maintaining their connections to their creators, producers or originators. This connection remains until the producers change their volition or refrain from the evil volition which nourishes the forms.

Prayers are forms of good volition sent upwards to God. Demons are form of evil volition.

Therefore m_nwankwo is right in his assertion that demons are spiritual volitions.


This is my perception of the issue based on my experiencing of the Grail message. As always, I advice readers of my posts to read the Grail message.

@justcool,

Hallo. I'm doing okay and trust the same for you.

justcool:

Prayers are forms of good volition sent upwards to God. Demons are form of evil volition.

Therefore m_nwankwo is right in his assertion that demons are spiritual volitions.

I maintain that m_nwankwo is absolutely wrong. There's just no way to theorise round this, and I sympathise with these ideas simply on the basis that you guys are preaching the Grail Message here. In reality, the idea that demons are volitions still has no substance - especially because when I ask simple questions in reference to what has been defined, the answers only come off really tenuous.

If for the moment I take you back to what m_nwankwo has said and then discuss a few of these highlights:
_____________________________________________________________

Finally in my previous posts, I clearly distinguished between spirit possesion and demon affliction. An alien spirit can posses a human being but a demon cannot. A demon can afflict or influence a human being but incapable of taking posssesion of the human body since a demon is not a spiritual being. Only a spirit can possess a body inhabited by another spirit. I also stated that the intruding spirit can be cast out easily and the demon afflicted can be cured by one who stands in the authority and power of God. Spirit possesion and demon affliction are two different things. Stay blessed.

Earlier, I had outlined these matters and also clearly distinguished between demon-possession and demon-affliction; as well to whom they are applied. In that previous entry, I remarked that believers could be “oppressed and harrassed mentally; as well as afflicted bodily” – yet, in all these, one thing is clear: a Christian cannot be possessed of a demon; and only the unregenerate are open to such a phenomenon. I had covered these issues, and that was why I didn’t refer to them in his riposte.

That said, here are the few things that I had highlighted in the quote above:

● ‘An alien spirit can possess a human being but a demon cannot ’

● reason why a demon cannot possess a human body is because
‘a demon is not a spiritual being’

● ‘Only a spirit can possess a body inhabited by another spirit’

● ‘the intruding spirit can be cast out’

There are a few problems with these assumptions. Let me bring them out:

m_nwankwo stated that:
● ‘An alien spirit can possess a human being but a demon cannot’

Although he did not define what he meant by an “alien spirit”, he however got it wrong that a demon cannot possess a human being. First off, I had shown him that demons are diabolical spirits (Matt. 8:16). It is because they are spirits (or ‘spirit beings’), that is why they can possess human beings. To deny that fact and then assume that they are mere “volitions” is to use vague terms that confuse the whole premise for him – because there is no other way he had defined that word ‘volition’ than as “the expression of the free will by the human spirit”. A demon is not an expression of a freewill – it is a diabolical spirit able to possess a human being and exercise a will of its own. How could a "volition" have a "volition" of its own?

He also stated that:
● ‘Only a spirit can possess a body inhabited by another spirit’

I agreed with him on this – which was the reason why I’ve consistently stated that demons are spirits; and as such are able to possess a human being. Aside from the fact that being defined as a ‘volition’ does not meet this criteria, a demon can be cast out on the fact that it is a spirit. Incidentally, he agreed with the fact that a spirit can be “cast out” as well; and that is why we speak of casting out demons, rather thann "casting out" volitions.

It would really help for someone to make a serious reflection on this matter and think deeply. As long as one keeps theorizing on vague terms, they would find it very difficult to answer simple questions. It is because many people have veered off into these vague ideas, that is why they are unable to hold a consistent thought thereto.

@justcool,

justcool:

An earnest volition of evil also takes a form corresponding to the evil nature of the volition. If it is directed against somebody, it can harm that person, I.E -- if Mr B earnestly lusts after Mrs Z. This lust will take on a form corresponding to lust, and this form will move towards Mrs Z. This form can attach itself to Mrs. Z and harm her by making her lustfull, then from Mrs Z it will proceed downwards to hell(a plane corresponding to its heaviness), yet maintaining its connection with Mr. B and Mrs Z. But if Mrs Z is righteous, her righteousness will repel this form which then proceed downwards to hell without attaching itself to her. But this form remains connected to its creator(Mr B.) and through this connection, this form will pour the evils of hell to the originator. Mr. B will be bound to hell by this connection until he changes inwardly or repents from his evil volition.

Here are two interesting things that you have mentioned:

* repel

* repent

May I let you know that they have absolutely no power in regards to casting out demons. In demon-possession, diabolical spirits actually enter into the victim's body and take up residency there - and from that position, they take control of that person's faculties and render the victim incapable of living their own lives in any way contrary to what the demon(s) desires. That is why the victims cannot deal with this problem on their own either by "repelling" or "repenting" of any "volitions" - they need help to cast out these diabolical spirits, and then repentance will follow.

The example you gave about someone lusting after the other does not point to demon-possession. Sure, it may indicate some demon activity such as influence to do evil: in which case I have highlighted these other matters such as -

* demon-affliction
* demon-depression
* demon-oppression
* demonic-obsession

These all are not the same thing as "possession". Demons could influence as well as manipulate people's thinking process; yet demons are not volitions but diabolical spirits able to exercise their own volitions over their victims. When one examines a real case demon-possession, all these ideas about "volitions" just melt away.

justcool:

Everything we do, think or say takes on form corresponding to its nature. The words that we speak take on form in planes of medium gross matter. The thoughts that we produce take on form in the planes of fine gross mater. But these(words and thoughts) are only produced with the physical body, and their forms easily die away, they are mere phantoms. People who are gifted to see planes of medium and fine gross matter have seen and testified that words, thoughts, and even emotions have forms and colours, I.E forms of envy always glow in dark green. Hence expressions like "He is green with envy."

I don't know where these ideas are coming from; but demons are not volitions or thoughts. Rather, demons are real spirits with personalities of their own independent of their victims.

justcool:

But forms created by our spiritual volition, or the volitions of our spirit are not just phantoms but they are demons. They are far stronger than phantoms because they bear within them, the principle neutral power of God which only the spirit can receive and lend.

There's no such thing as the "neutral" power of God. People who use such terms are playing around with words that they can't give substance to, because they are only repeating the same thing that they have embraced from the theories of the Grail Message.

justcool:

Thoughts forms do not have this power because thoughts have their origin in the brain, and the brain cannot lend or pass over this power which is spiritual; the brain is physical. This is why we need to pray with our spirit and not just thoughts. Prayer by merely thinking cannever rise up to the God because it an inferior form. But prayers from our spirit can rise so high(as long as it is pure) because its form possesses the principle neutral power of God. Thus a real preayer is an earnest volition of the spirit.

On the contrary, true prayer involves both the human spirit and thoughts of the heart and mind. The problem here is that these ideas you're sharing have been confusing for many people who hold them, and that is why they often leave a disclaimer that these or those are their thoughts of the Grail Message - not what they have attested out with the clear thinking of their renewed mind according to God's will. Apart from asserting terms such as "neutral power of God", not one of these dear folks I have spoken to have been able to give any substance to that idea.

justcool:

Such forms (Forms arising from spiritual volition) are very powerful, they can be evil. If the volition is evil, the form of this evil volition is what people call demons. They influence their producer and other people who cannot repeal them. Anybody carrying evil of like nature within him/her can attract such forms.

Demons are not "attracted" from person to person - rather, demons possess their victims and operate from within them to inflcit harm both to themselves and to others. People passing by a demoniac do not just "attract" the demons.

justcool:

To these belong the furies and most of the gods that some of the ancient African tribes worshiped. As long as there are humans nourishing these evil volition, these forms will remain alive. But once there are no more such people, the forms will gradually die. I have never seen such forms but I once dated a girl who was very clairvoyant, she could clearly see the demon that the heathens in her village worshiped. Such demons can approach people and seek to make such persons its spokesman or representative. So when the ancient igbos say that an idol wished for a certain person to become its priest. They are not lying. Such demons have strong influence on their worshipers and keeps them washipping it because only their worship and fear keeps the demon alive. But as soon as the people loses their fear and stop the demon worship the demon either dies or gets attracted to another demon of the same nature tormenting another people who still worship demons and live in fear of demons.

Lol, dear justcool - these theories sound interesting: but they are theories. In the first place, demons don't "die" - they are spirit beings that are alive in the spirit-realm and very active in our world. Have I seen a demon? No; but have I seen a spirit? Yes. However, from events that I have witnessed, demon activity show that they don't die but are cast out - they leave the bodies of their victims when commanded by God's power to do so. If a victim is delivered and then opens up again to demonic activity, a worse senario follows. This is why Christians who are born again cannot be possessed by any demon: because the Spirit of God lives within that person and demons see that divine presence there.

justcool:

Demons are not spirits. Spirits are stronger than demons because spirits are creatures of God, or better said, spirits originates in the Kingdom of God. But demons are only living forms of volitions of Spirits. Just as the life and sustenance of a spirit depends of God, the life and sustenance of a demon depends on its creators. No demon can ever enter Paradise because demons are not works of God.

Demons are spirits.

justcool:

Lucifer also produced so many demons. His wrong volitions took on forms and tormented mankind. But even Lucifer's volition cannever be as strong as a spirit. Spirits(human beings) only live in fear and torment of demons out of ignorance, not knowing God, and sin. Once the spirit recognizes its origin, its creator(God), and live in accord with the will of God, then such a spirit will not even need to battle with demons. His existence will dispel all demons around him. One who live in the laws of God need not battle with demons or battle with evil spirits like so many churches do. His existence will repeal all demons.

My dear, demons are spirits - and when your discussion enters grounds about the Church, here is where I would have to set you straight. I have shown from the Bible the fact of demons; but it is the devil himself that is fooling people into thinking that demons are volitions - that is why when you ask such people simple questions, they come back with vague answers bearing no substance. If you ask them to look at documented cases of demon-possession, you will not find these same people able to say anything; all they come back with are more vague terms, more vague definitions, more vague ideas and theories. Demons are not the creation of man - they existed before man, but are always seeking who among men to possess and wreck havoc upon.

Demons also have other types of influneces - and the most common work of demons is to attack the person of Christ and His Word. This is why you find so many people today doing their very best to denounce the Bible and claim that the apostles got the message of Christ wrong! This is why such people claim some "special knowledge" to re-interprete the message of the apostles, use Biblical terms, obfuscate the Biblical message, and yet be unable to answer simple questions on their own theories.

justcool:

This is my perception of the issue based on my experiencing of the Grail message. As always, I advice readers of my posts to read the Grail message.

I already knew that what we have been reading from you guys are just the neat packaging of the Grail Message. All the same, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Regards.

I think that the main problem here is the ascribing of the same terminology to very different things. What Nwankwo and Justcool mean by 'demon' is not what Christians mean by 'demon'. The Argument is about definitions and I grant that definitions can be arbitrary as long as we all know what we are referring to when we use a certain term.

The Word demon has it's origins in the Greek word Daimon. A Daimon is an intermediary being, i[b]ndependent of humans[/b], that conveys divine knowledge to humans. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about Daimon:

In Hesiod's Theogony, Phaëton becomes a daimon, de-materialized,[2] but the ills of mankind released by Pandora are keres not daimones. Hesiod connects the daimones of the deceased great and good in relating how the men of the Golden Age were transmuted into daimones by the will of Zeus, to serve as ineffable guardians of mortals, whom they might serve by their benevolence.[3] In similar ways, the daimon of a venerated hero or a founder figure, located in one place by the construction of a shrine rather than left unburied to wander, would confer good fortune and protection on those who stopped to offer respect. Daemones were not considered evil.
The Greek translation of the Septuagint, made for the Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria, and the usage of daimon in the New Testament's original Greek text, caused the Greek word to be applied to a Judeo-Christian spirit by the early 2nd century AD. Then in late antiquity, pagan conceptions and exorcisms, part of the cultural atmosphere, became Christian beliefs and exorcism rituals. The transposition has recently been documented in detail, in North Africa, by Maureen Tilley.[4]

Here's another explanation of the term:

Daimon is the Greek derivative for the term demon. In this sense the term "demon" means "replete with knowledge." The ancient Greeks thought there were good and bad demons called 'eudemons' and 'cacodemons.' The term 'daimon' means "divine power," "fate" or "god." Daimons, in Greek mythology, included deified heroes. They were considered intermediary spirits between men and the gods. Good daimons were considered to be guardian spirits, giving guidance and protection to the ones they watched over. Bad daimons led people astray. Socrates said he had a life-time daimon that always warned him of danger and bad judgment, but never directed his actions. He said his daimon was more accurate than omens of either watching the flights or reading the entrails of birds, which were two respected forms of divination of the time.

From here: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/daimon.html

Daimons were sources of knowledge and guides of Fate.

This word was then appropriated by the christians in the 1st century of the CE. Note, there are no demons in the old testaments. Some translators have tried to force the word demon into the old testament but the fact is that there is nothing that equates to the christian concept of demon in the old testament. For further research here are a few sites:
http://gnosos..com/2005/12/demons-in-old-testament.html
http://freegroups.net/ministry_files/www.christianlibrary.org/authors/Grady_Scott/demons.htm
http://www.cresourcei.org/demonsot.html

There is no precedent for demons that possess people in Judaism. However it can be found in Greek religion, and other religions around the world, even in African religions. So we see that the word Demon has gone through many changes in meaning from the early greeks to the medieval christian and up to our modern african churches.

Now as regards demon possession what I can tell is this. It is not always considered an evil thing. In christianity possession by any spirit other than the Holy spirit is considered evil, yet in other cultures possession by various spirits is considered a blessing. Even the spirit of animals. For example, here is a link to a video of a man possessed by the spirit of Ekun (leopard) in yorubaland.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1iitrSD9I-s

Here the people consider it a blessing.

Socrates too, considered his Daimon to be a blessing to him.

The Greek words daimon and daimonion express a determining power which comes upon man from outside, like providence or fate, though the ethical decision is left to man.(3)

For Plato and Socrates, the daimon was not a determining power, but rather a divine guardian and guiding power. In The Apology, after Socrates has been condemned to death, he addressed those who had voted to acquit him:

I think of you as my friends and I wish to show you the meaning of what has now happened to me. For to me, judges—and in calling you judges I am calling you rightly—something wonderful has taken place. For previously the familiar divinatory voice of the daimon always spoke to me quite frequently and opposed me even in very small things if I was about to do something I should not rightly do. And now there has happened to me that which might be considered and is generally thought to be the greatest of evils. But the divine sign opposed me neither when I left my home in the morning, nor when I was coming up here to the court, nor when I was about to say anything. And yet on other occasions it stopped me many times in the middle of speaking, but now, in this matter, it has opposed me in neither my deeds nor my words. What, then, do I suppose to be the cause of this? I will tell you. That which has happened to me seems to me to be good, and those of us do not conceive rightly who think that death is an evil. That which, to me, is a clear proof of this has occurred. For the familiar sign would surely have opposed me if I had not been about to do something good.(4)

From here:http://www.prometheustrust.co.uk/Meadow_2/Greek_Philosophical_Terms/greek_philosophical_terms.html

Socrates was happy to go to his death simply because his daimon did not warn him against it, so therefore whatever happened there would be good and right, even death.

I'll return with a part two.

Earlier I asked, What is Demon possession? Actually, I'd like to rephrase the question to What is Spirit possession?

The way I'm led to see the human being is that he is a constitution. Literally, he is Con - stitution, con - statuere, that is diverse things that have been 'set up' together. or simply put together. For example the human body is a constitution. It's constituents are the Liver, the Heart, Muscles, A brain, and these are all various things amongst others that are brought together to form the physical constitution of a human body.

Man's being is similarly a constitution and amongst it's constituents is An Identity or ego, a Will, and other constituents include a variety of Urges and Habits. These things are in fact various and not One as we would presume and that is made clear by the fact that they can be in conflict with each other. For instance, consider a man that is attempting to quit smoking. His Will refuses to accept a cigarette yet there are urges within him that influence him to reach of the cigarette. Those urges are in conflict with his will. Now just because he smokes against his will is not to say that the urge to smoke is not a part of him. We have an habitual nature as well as a spiritual nature. The Spiritual is capable of spontaneity and originality and is not restrained to habits and environmental influences.

Another constituent part is the conscious ego. Now a common claim amongst people who suffer demonic possession is that they are not present during, and have no recollection of the events of possession. It appears that not only does the conscious ego lose total control of determining behaviour but it is swamped completely by other faculties during possession to the point that it is no longer present. Some others are present but cannot help performing the actions that they perform. They are no longer in control. There are varying degrees of this where one feels overwhelmed by external urges. It could be a couple not being able to help themselves when they fall into bed together while being unmarried. All the way up to full blown possession where the consciousness is swamped out completely.

@Pastor AIO,

Appreciate your reply.

Pastor AIO:

I think that the main problem here is the ascribing of the same terminology to very different things. What Nwankwo and Justcool mean by 'demon' is not what Christians mean by 'demon'. The Argument is about definitions and I grant that definitions can be arbitrary as long as we all know what we are referring to when we use a certain term.

Granted. When one is using a term and asserting it as a fact without reference to any substance other than theorising, it becomes necessary to point out that such theorising is the person's personal ideas that bear no substance to reality.

Pastor AIO:

The Word demon has it's origins in the Greek word Daimon. A Daimon is an intermediary being, independent of humans, that conveys divine knowledge to humans.

This was why I had stated earlier that:
             ___________________________________________________________________

              4. every major reference to demons point to spirit beings, not in any instance would
              anyone be able to defend the idea that they are "volitions" - not in one instance,
              regardless what religious perspective they hold.
            ____________________________________________________________________

From the sources you had quoted, it still substantiates that same inference - that demons (regardless the perspective one holds) are spirit beings; they are not volitions, but beings with essential nature as spirits.

Pastor AIO:

Note, there are no demons in the old testaments. Some translators have tried to force the word demon into the old testament but the fact is that there is nothing that equates to the christian concept of demon in the old testament.

I am not so sure that the highlighted part of that assertion could pass. Demonic activity was well known in the OT and in Judaism - that the Hebrew OT does not mention a Greek equivalent of "demon" specifically, does not suppose therefore that it was unknown to the Jews at all. Let me point out some issues here even under Judaism:

1. In the Gospel narratives where Judaism was also evident in the early ministry of the Lord Jesus, we note the Jews directly accusing Him of casting out demons by the prince of demons - Beelzebub:

      "But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils,
       but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils." [Matthew 12:24]

The question now is this: where did those Jews get the idea of "demons" from, if those under Judaism were never acquainted with the phenomenon? They already had laid this charge directly against Him (Matt. 9:34), but he had not responded to them. Just because we find it in the NT does not mean that Jews were largely vacant about its occurences while still under Judaism.

2. But this charge of Beelzebub as such was directly in reference a known diabolical being in the OT referred to as Baalzebub - the god of Ekron (2 Kings 1:2-3).

3. What is even more fascinating is that, though the OT may not have mentioned them specifically as "demons", we know that the OT actually mentions demonic activity several times. An akin term used in the OT is "familiar spirits", and a few examples:

      ●  Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit,
          that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold,
          there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.  [1 Samuel 28:7]

      ●  And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of
         Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft,
         and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in
         the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. [2 Chron. 33:6]

      ●  And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground,
          and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be,
          as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech
          shall whisper out of the dust. [Isaiah 29:4]

There are definitely more; but the Jewish scriptures knew of demonic activity - even of mediums which allowed themselves to be possessed by demons for power - although it is in the NT we find these "spirits" specifically given that term "demons". One cannot argue that demons were unknown in the OT just because the term was not mentioned there. Another example of demonic activity in the OT is necromancy; but we don't find that term in the NT, which does not suggest that it was not known in those times.

Pastor AIO:

Now as regards demon possession what I can tell is this. It is not always considered an evil thing. In christianity possession by any spirit other than the Holy spirit is considered evil, yet in other cultures possession by various spirits is considered a blessing. Even the spirit of animals. For example, here is a link to a video of a man possessed by the spirit of Ekun (leopard) in yorubaland.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1iitrSD9I-s

Would the Yorubas describe that and categorically call it "demon-possession"?

Regards.

Pastor AIO:

Earlier I asked, What is Demon possession? Actually, I'd like to rephrase the question to What is Spirit possession?

They could be the same, although used in particular contexts. A demon is a spirit; and as such, demon-possession can also be referred to as "spirit-possession".

Pastor AIO:

The way I'm led to see the human being is that he is a constitution. Literally, he is Con - stitution, con - statuere, that is diverse things that have been 'set up' together. or simply put together. For example the human body is a constitution. It's constituents are the Liver, the Heart, Muscles, A brain, and these are all various things amongst others that are brought together to form the physical constitution of a human body.

Granted.

Pastor AIO:

Man's being is similarly a constitution and amongst it's constituents is An Identity or ego, a Will, and other constituents include a variety of Urges and Habits. These things are in fact various and not One as we would presume and that is made clear by the fact that they can be in conflict with each other. For instance, consider a man that is attempting to quit smoking. His Will refuses to accept a cigarette yet there are urges within him that influence him to reach of the cigarette. Those urges are in conflict with his will. Now just because he smokes against his will is not to say that the urge to smoke is not a part of him. We have an habitual nature as well as a spiritual nature. The Spiritual is capable of spontaneity and originality and is not restrained to habits and environmental influences.

This is not describing demon-possession, but an addiction.

Pastor AIO:

Another constituent part is the conscious ego. Now a common claim amongst people who suffer demonic possession is that they are not present during, and have no recollection of the events of possession. It appears that not only does the conscious ego lose total control of determining behaviour but it is swamped completely by other faculties during possession to the point that it is no longer present. Some others are present but cannot help performing the actions that they perform. They are no longer in control. There are varying degrees of this where one feels overwhelmed by external urges. It could be a couple not being able to help themselves when they fall into bed together while being unmarried. All the way up to full blown possession where the consciousness is swamped out completely.

Committing fornication is not to be miscontrued as equating the idea to demon-possession - that would be like two demoniacs falling into bed, which is another thing entirely. However, that the victims of demon-possession are "no longer in control" is a basic description of that phenomena. They may be conscious and recognize their immediate environment, and in some cases even sob for help; but basically, they are victims and not in control of their human faculties.

@Pilgrim

You continue to raise the same issues. Part of the problem in this discussion seem to be the interpretation of words. You adhere strictly to the dictionary meaning of every word. To make my self clearer and less abstract I will adhere to ordinary meaning of words as in the dictionary and where I cannot, I will define or explain what I meant. Now their are two words which I used with regard to demons: will and personality. When a dictionary meaning of these words are applied to my submissions, it leads to interpretations which are not in accord with what I meant in my descriptions. Thus to be as clear as possible I retract the words will and personality.  I will replace them with clearer statements as follows:

Demons are evil volitions of the human spirit. Demons have a form. Demons are ethereal and not abstract. Demons have an elemental core that allows it to act. The action of a demon may be directed by its producer or by others. In this connection an envy witch (a demon) produced by Mr. A may be directed by Mr. A to attack Mr. B or be directed by envious Mr.D to attack Mr. B or may attack spirituallly weak or envious Mr F without a direction from any human being. Demons do not possess freedom of choice, the remain what their originator or producer intended them to be. An envy witch remain so and cannot change its nature. Demons can attack, influence, afflict but are incapable of possessing a human being. I guess this explanation is clealer.

Now let me address some of the issues you raised:

If you define a demon as a "volition", you have seen none. People only observe the results of human volitions, not the volitions themselves, because volitions are abstract. A spirit is not abstract because it is a being that is ethereal and incorporeal, yet possessing a definite form. However, a demon also is a type of spirit which can exercise a volition on its own - it is not a "volition" exercising a "volition" - and in as much as you have kept up the idea that a spirit "produces" a demon, you have not seen any demons.

Based on my definition above, I think that your questioning of "volition" exercising "volition" does not apply anymore. A demon is a volition but the volition has no "volition" or "will". In order not to misrepresent your statements, kindly explain what you mean by "spirit is ethereal and incoporeal". Also since you said that a demon is a "type of spirit", what is spirit.

Although he did not define what he meant by an “alien spirit”, he however got it wrong that a demon cannot possess a human being. First off, I had shown him that demons are diabolical spirits (Matt. 8:16). It is because they are spirits (or ‘spirit beings’), that is why they can possess human beings. To deny that fact and then assume that they are mere “volitions” is to use vague terms that confuse the whole premise for him – because there is no other way he had defined that word ‘volition’ than as “the expression of the free will by the human spirit”. A demon is not an expression of a freewill – it is a diabolical spirit able to possess a human being and exercise a will of its own. How could a "volition" have a "volition" of its own?

An alien spirit is another human spirit that is no more in flesh and blood. I can infer (correct me if it is a wrong inference) that demons are  not human spirit but diabolical spirits. Now explain how a non-human spirit will take possesion of a human body.

Lol, dear justcool - these theories sound interesting: but they are theories. In the first place, demons don't "die" - they are spirit beings that are alive in the spirit-realm and very active in our world. Have I seen a demon? No; but have I seen a spirit? Yes. However, from events that I have witnessed, demon activity show that they don't die but are cast out - they leave the bodies of their victims when commanded by God's power to do so. If a victim is delivered and then opens up again to demonic activity, a worse senario follows. This is why Christians who are born again cannot be possessed by any demon: because the Spirit of God lives within that person and demons see that divine presence there.

What are spirit beings. Since you have seen spirit, what type of spirit did you see and how does it look.

There's no such thing as the "neutral" power of God. People who use such terms are playing around with words that they can't give substance to, because they are only repeating the same thing that they have embraced from the theories of the Grail Message.

What is your evidence that there is no such thing as the neutral power of God?


Stay blessed.