₦airaland Forum

Myer:
Feed in that context doesn't necessarily mean to lead.
It means to continuously preach to them.

Though Jesus did not directly say they were going to lead the church but it's obvious they were selected to lead without lauding it over others.

In fact in Jesus' context to lead is to become servants.

John 13: 12-17
When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. “You call me ‘Teacher’and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.

Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet.

I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.
Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master,nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

So Feed poimaino means to preach? You try.

Some of you will soon inspire your own Bible.

What is the meaning of "not necessarily" that you said?. Do we have to go around argument route on things that are well explained in the scriptures? Do you have to twist the usage of words when it doesnt suit your self-mind?

Poimen was used 18 times in NT writings and the meaning was consistent. A shepherd. The one who feeds and rule the sheep,

He is a ruler, a controller, the authority, the shepherd, the one who nurture.

Please stop all these. You dont have to twist things to drive a point. Take the Bible as it is.

Infact to push you bad again. That word is a word used for someone who is to Lord over others. And you will see it all through the scriptures.

Ps 23:1 brought out best the meaning of that word as used in the Jewish culture.

The Lord, My Shepherd

That exactly is the meaning all through the scriptures.

hoopernikao:
So Feed poimaino means to preach? You try.

Some of you will soon inspire your own Bible.

What is the meaning of "not necessarily" that you said?. Do we have to go around argument route on things that are well explained in the scriptures? Do you have to twist the usage of words when it doesnt suit your self-mind?

Poimen was used 18 times in NT writings and the meaning was consistent. A shepherd. The one who feeds and rule the sheep,

He is a ruler, a controller, the authority, the shepherd, the one who nurture.

Please stop all these. You dont have to twist things to drive a point. Take the Bible as it is.

Infact to push you bad again. That word is a word used for someone who is to Lord over others. And you will see it all through the scriptures.

Ps 23:1 brought out best the meaning of that word as used in the Jewish culture.

The Lord, My Shepherd

That exactly is the meaning all through the scriptures.

Jesus is clearly the only shepherd of Christians.

John 10:14-16
“I am the good shepherd.The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also.

They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Jesus says there'll only be 1 shepherd, Him.
Others are hirelings.

Kobojunkie also mentioned why God made that promise in Ezekiel.

The point here being Jesus is the Head, no one else.
There can be teachers and stewards but only Jesus is the Leader/Master/Groom of his ecclesia.

While I agree that yhe ecclesia is subject to tutors, whom we often attribute to be the leaders, Jesus never called them leaders. Because according to his teaching in John 13:1-17, the stewards are actually meant to be servants.

hoopernikao:
Bro, leave daddy GO, or whatever you call it. I am speaking about the scriptures, lets face that.

What does poimaino mean if not shepherd. Why skimming by the wall and avoiding to be clear on Peter's responsibility.

He was to shepherd others. That is where you can find the word Feed.

Deacons werent asked to shepherd. Deacon diakoneō is to serve not to rule. Shepherd poimēn are to RULE.

The moment you twist the usage of the word shepherd, you could likewise use the same everywhere it is used for God or Jesus in the Bible, that they are caretakers too but not Shepherd.

A shepherd is to rule, Peter was given that authority.

My man, I am not an expert in Greek terminology, so I cannot argue that with you. What I can argue however, is that Jesus made it clear that he is the owner of his sheep to correspond with the prophecy in Ezekiel where there is only one shepherd. It is his flock and Peter could not have been appointed as a second shepherd. No matter the words used, Peter was merely a. caretaker for his master. For jesus, a leader is actually a servant given to service, so even if you say the Greek word there means to lead the sheep, it would still mean to serve the sheep. Deacons were also elected as well to serve. It was not meant to be an organisation of heirarchy but of servants serving each other. There is no true leader like in the world system in that sense, only elected servants feeding others. Sheep feeding Sheep, and so on.

Kobojunkiee:
What you are invariably saying is that Christ lied when He declared that He alone is Teacher to all those who are His followers, something God also stated through His prophets before Jesus Christ?

So in you summation, Jesus Christ made a false statement when He declared, as God did, that He alone is Shepherd/guide/Head over His entire flock?

Chist is the chief shepherd...
Christ is the head of the church and scriptures says he gave gifts unto men for the work of the ministry... I.e delegation of responsibility...
For the perfecting of the saints...
That's why standing in the ministry offices is firstly a calling...
Every believer is called to do the work of the ministry but some are ministry gifts to minister ry to thr body of christ as he has called them...
Just as he called twelve (12) to work with him in scriptures and 70 also to work with him...

GeneralDae:
My man, I am not an expert in Greek terminology, so I cannot argue that with you. What I can argue however, is that Jesus made it clear that he is the owner of his sheep to correspond with the prophecy in Ezekiel where there is only one shepherd. It is his flock and Peter could not have been appointed as a second shepherd. No matter the words used, Peter was merely a. caretaker for his master. For jesus, a leader is actually a servant given to service, so even if you say the Greek word there means to lead the sheep, it would still mean to serve the sheep. Deacons were also elected as well to serve. It was not meant to be an organisation of heirarchy but of servants serving each other. There is no true leader like in the world system in that sense, only elected servants feeding others. Sheep feeding Sheep, and so on.

Thank God you said Peter a second shepherd. We are getting close.

You don't have to know Greek, that's the reason you have books like STRONG CONCORDANCE to help you out. Neglecting what was now presented to you as cultural meaning by such book is what is bad.

I have shown you what was used.
Jesus used same words that was used for God and himself as shepherd. One who rule over. That is clear enough in the Bible.

Now, trying to explain away this will lead to strong-willed.

So the basics is?

Who is a shepherd? One who rule and have control over lambs, sheep or people.

Did Jesus told Peter to shepherd his lambs? Yes.

So, what responsibility is given to Peter? Responsibility of a shepherd, a ruler, a controller.

You must get this well and not explain it away. Using caretaker is a way of dodging the exact meaning of the word used.

So, whether second or third shepherd, the authority was delegated and given to him to rule over the flock of Jesus. This is the fact of the scriptures and consistent with the practice and the teaching of the new testament.

Myer:
Jesus is clearly the only shepherd of Christians.

John 10:14-16
“I am the good shepherd.The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also.

They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Jesus says there'll only be 1 shepherd, Him.
Others are hirelings.

Kobojunkie also mentioned why God made that promise in Ezekiel.

The point here being Jesus is the Head, no one else.
There can be teachers and stewards but only Jesus is the Leader/Master/Groom of his ecclesia.

While I agree that yhe ecclesia is subject to tutors, whom we often attribute to be the leaders, Jesus never called them leaders. Because according to his teaching in John 13:1-17, the stewards are actually meant to be servants.

It's good to stay on real issue. No one doubt the headship of Jesus. The issue here is did Jesus delegate his authority to rule and lead the flock to Peter?

Does the shepherdhood of Peter turn the flock of Jesus to one fold, two shepherds?


When an authority delegate his authority to someone, does that make him loose his authority over all? Does that make him loose his authority over Peter? Does the GCO looses his authority because he delegates same to a COAS.


Like I told you, the narrative of no one is a shepherd OVER the flock is born out of rebellious heart to submit to God's authority in the church.

Jesus gave Peter an express responsibility. FEED MY LAMB. This was seen in his actions afterwards. Paul did gave such responsibilities also to the elders in Ephesus.

Acts 20:28 .
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Used the word overseers to feed "episkopos poimaino". One who have oversight to rule and control.

He called the church, the flock of the holyghost, and called the elders overseer. That is one who have rule over others.

Hebrews writer emphasized the same

Hebrews 13:7
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Vs 17
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Strong words
1. Obey
2. Rule over
3. Submit

Those are words you could only register with a shepherd. He tends, rule, control, lead and instruct the flock.

The moment you missed this, you have missed to see Christ plan for his church.

Myer:
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this one.
Jesus (the Word) is the Teacher. Likewuse the Holyspirit whom the Father sent to teach Christians all things.

It is also without a doubt that Jesus chose the 12 as apostles to lead (including teach) his flock. Peter and Paul being the apostles to the circumcised and uncircumcised respectively.

While these leaders are not meant to laud it over their followers, they do have a responsibility having followed and learned from Christ to teach his new followers.

Thank you....the context Jesus spoke from was was humility.. that no one should laud their leadership roles over anyone...


I asked.. does turn ur cheek when they slap you literarily mean “turn ur cheek”..?

I also asked :does the kingdom of God suffer violence means we are to be violent literarily??

But when it comes to Jesus telling his disciples about the “teacher title” kobojunkiee decided the meaning has to literarily...

why?? because it’s convinient to use it in discrediting other denominations that have titles....he even went as far as calling Paul a liar..

Kobojunkiee, How do you people bieleve in the Bible in parts...
If u want to believe the Bible...believe
If you don’t want to.. don’t believe...
Which one is one part of the Bible is a lie..how do u even preach to nonbelievers when u claiming the Bible is a lie.... I suspect u are a JW..

hoopernikao:
It's good to stay on real issue. No one doubt the headship of Jesus. The issue here is did Jesus delegate his authority to rule and lead the flock to Peter?

Does the shepherdhood of Peter turn the flock of Jesus to one fold, two shepherds?


When an authority delegate his authority to someone, does that make him loose his authority over all? Does that make him loose his authority over Peter? Does the GCO looses his authority because he delegates same to a COAS.


Like I told you, the narrative of no one is a shepherd OVER the flock is born out of rebellious heart to submit to God's authority in the church.

Jesus gave Peter an express responsibility. FEED MY LAMB. This was seen in his actions afterwards. Paul did gave such responsibilities also to the elders in Ephesus.

Acts 20:28 .
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Used the word overseers to feed "episkopos poimaino". One who have oversight to rule and control.

He called the church, the flock of the holyghost, and called the elders overseer. That is one who have rule over others.

Hebrews writer emphasized the same

Hebrews 13:7
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Vs 17
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Strong words
1. Obey
2. Rule over
3. Submit

Those are words you could only register with a shepherd. He tends, rule, control, lead and instruct the flock.

The moment you missed this, you have missed to see Christ plan for his church.

Well, I do believe biblically and by even human sense, God established leaders to oversee his church.

The problem is what leadership means today is different from what was described in the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles.

This clear disparity is often enough reason to justify Kobojunkie's stand. And since Jesus never actually mentioned that he called the disciples to lead the church coupled with the contunuous abuse that has resulted from present day church leadership, it would give credence to Ezekiel that God has decommissioned church leadership.

All these ones no concern me!
Abeg that kind Bible where you for buy am and how much?

hoopernikao:
Thank God you said Peter a second shepherd. We are getting close.

You don't have to know Greek, that's the reason you have books like STRONG CONCORDANCE to help you out. Neglecting what was now presented to you as cultural meaning by such book is what is bad.

I have shown you what was used.
Jesus used same words that was used for God and himself as shepherd. One who rule over. That is clear enough in the Bible.

Now, trying to explain away this will lead to strong-willed.

So the basics is?

Who is a shepherd? One who rule and have control over lambs, sheep or people.

Did Jesus told Peter to shepherd his lambs? Yes.

So, what responsibility is given to Peter? Responsibility of a shepherd, a ruler, a controller.

You must get this well and not explain it away. Using caretaker is a way of dodging the exact meaning of the word used.

So, whether second or third shepherd, the authority was delegated and given to him to rule over the flock of Jesus. This is the fact of the scriptures and consistent with the practice and the teaching of the new testament.

So are you saying we have two or more shepherds over the sheep?

advanceDNA:
Thank you....the context Jesus spoke from was was humility.. that no one should laud their leadership roles over anyone...

I am afraid you need to pay attention to the context that is the entire chapter of Matthew 23... The passage below, taken from that very same chapter will help you see that Jesus Christ was in fact addressing the teaching abilities of the teachers of the law and the Pharisees, teachers of his time, as he was clearly against them in this.

Matthew 23 vs 1-15 (ERV)
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1. Then Jesus spoke to the people and to his followers. He said,
2. “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees have the authority to tell you what the Law of Moses says.
3. So you should obey them. Do everything they tell you to do. But their lives are not good examples for you to follow. They tell you to do things, but they don’t do those things themselves.
4. They make strict rules that are hard for people to obey. They try to force others to obey all their rules. But they themselves will not try to follow any of those rules.
5. “The only reason they do what they do is for other people to see them. They make the little Scripture boxes[a] they wear bigger and bigger. And they make the tassels on their prayer clothes long enough for people to notice them.
6. These men love to have the places of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues.
7. They love for people to show respect to them in the marketplaces and to call them ‘Teacher.’

8. “But you must not be called ‘Teacher.’ You are all equal as brothers and sisters. You have only one Teacher.
9. And don’t call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ You have one Father. He is in heaven.
10. And you should not be called ‘Master.’ You have only one Master, the Messiah.
11. Whoever serves you like a servant is the greatest among you.
12. People who think they are better than others will be made humble. But people who humble themselves will be made great.
13. “It will be bad for you teachers of the law and you Pharisees! You are hypocrites! You close the way for people to enter God’s kingdom. You yourselves don’t enter, and you stop those who are trying to enter.
14. [c]
15. “It will be bad for you teachers of the law and you Pharisees! You are hypocrites. You travel across the seas and across different countries to find one person who will follow your ways. When you find that person, you make him worse than you are. And you are so bad that you belong in hell!

You can study the rest of the chapter to learn more. Anyways, Jesus Christ was not delusional when He declared that He alone is the Teacher to all those who belong in His Flock. He was in fact echoing God's message through the prophets.

Jeremiah 31 vs 31-34 (ERV)
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31. “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32. not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.
33. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

It is very important to realize this message and have it sink into your brain there.

advanceDNA:
I asked.. does turn ur cheek when they slap you literarily mean “turn ur cheek”..?

So, here's a better question for you. If an enemy of yours slaps you, what do you think Jesus Christ expects you to do in that case?

Matthew 5 vs 38-48 (ERV)
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38. “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’[i]
39. But I tell you, don’t fight back against someone who wants to do harm to you. If they hit you on the right cheek, let them hit the other cheek too.
40. If anyone wants to sue you in court and take your shirt, let them have your coat too.
41. If a soldier forces you to walk with him one mile,[j] go with him two.
42. Give to anyone who asks you for something. Don’t refuse to give to anyone who wants to borrow from you.
43. “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[k] and hate your enemy.’
44. But I tell you, love your enemies. Pray for those who treat you badly.
45. If you do this, you will be children who are truly like your Father in heaven. He lets the sun rise for all people, whether they are good or bad. He sends rain to those who do right and to those who do wrong.
46. If you love only those who love you, why should you get a reward for that? Even the tax collectors do that.
47. And if you are nice only to your friends, you are no better than anyone else. Even the people who don’t know God are nice to their friends.
48. What I am saying is that you must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Do you walk away, fight back, or stand there allowing him to slap either the same cheek or the other cheek?

advanceDNA:
I also asked :does the kingdom of God suffer violence means we are to be violent literarily??

I see, you don't care much for what Scripture has to say on any of these things. You simply want to remain stuck on whatever delusion your Mogs have been feeding you with there, aren't you?

Matthew 11 vs 2-12 (ERV)
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2. When John was in prison, he heard about the things that were happening—things the Messiah would do. So he sent some of his followers to Jesus.
3. They asked him, “Are you the one we have been expecting, or should we wait for someone else?”
4. Jesus answered, “Go tell John what you have heard and seen:
5. The blind can see. The crippled can walk. People with leprosy are healed. The deaf can hear. The dead are brought back to life. And the Good News is being told to the poor.
6. Great blessings belong to those who don’t have a problem accepting me.”
7. When John’s followers left, Jesus began talking to the people about John. He said, “What did you people go out to the desert to see? Someone who is weak, like a stem of grass[a] blowing in the wind?
8. Really, what did you expect to see? Someone dressed in fine clothes? Of course not. People who wear fine clothes are all in kings’ palaces.
9. So what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, John is a prophet. But I tell you, he is more than that.
10. This Scripture was written about him: ‘Listen! I will send my messenger ahead of you. He will prepare the way for you.’
11. “The truth is that John the Baptizer is greater than anyone who has ever come into this world. But even the least important person in God’s kingdom is greater than John.
12. Since the time John the Baptizer came until now, God’s kingdom has been going forward strongly.[b] And people have been trying to take control of it by force.

As I said, Jesus Christ never asked you or anyone to take the Kingdom of God by force...

advanceDNA:
But when it comes to Jesus telling his disciples about the “teacher title” kobojunkiee decided the meaning has to literarily... why?? because it’s convinient to use it in discrediting other denominations that have titles....he even went as far as calling Paul a liar..

I never said any of what you accuse me of though. I was clear when I said that it was not a "title" as you claim, hence Paul was wrong! If are able to, counter it the way an intelloigent being would. Not run behind others to seek support in the way you attempt here.

advanceDNA:
Kobojunkiee, How do you people bieleve in the Bible in parts... If u want to believe the Bible...believe. If you don’t want to.. don’t believe...Which one is one part of the Bible is a lie..how do u even preach to nonbelievers when u claiming the Bible is a lie.... I suspect u are a JW..

I am afraid you need help in understanding that running behind the opinions of others will not get you closer to God but instead the delusions of other men. Read and process that which is found in that book all by your own self, using the brain God has given you.

Salt06:
Chist is the chief shepherd...

So what you are saying is that Jesus Christ lied to us then?

John 10 vs 7-20 (ERV)
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7. So Jesus said again, “I assure you, I am the gate for the sheep.
8. All those who came before me were thieves and robbers. The sheep did not listen to them.
9. I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved. They will be able to come in and go out. They will find everything they need.
10. A thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. But I came to give life—life that is full and good.
11. “I am the good shepherd, and the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.
12. The worker who is paid to keep the sheep is different from the shepherd. The paid worker does not own the sheep. So when he sees a wolf coming, he runs away and leaves the sheep alone. Then the wolf attacks the sheep and scatters them.
13. The man runs away because he is only a paid worker. He does not really care for the sheep.

14-15. “I am the shepherd who cares for the sheep. I know my sheep just as the Father knows me. And my sheep know me just as I know the Father. I give my life for these sheep.
16. I have other sheep too. They are not in this flock here. I must lead them also. They will listen to my voice. In the future, there will be one flock and one shepherd.
17. The Father loves me because I give my life. I give my life so that I can get it back again.
18. No one takes my life away from me. I give my own life freely. I have the right to give my life, and I have the right to get it back again. This is what the Father told me.”
19. Again the Jews were divided over what Jesus was saying.
20. Many of them said, “A demon has come into him and made him crazy. Why listen to him?”

And God did as well when He declared that He alone is Shepherd over His flock?

Ezekiel 34 vs 9-16 (ERV)
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9. So, you shepherds, listen to the word of the Lord!
10. The Lord God says, “I am against the shepherds. I will demand my sheep from them. I will fire them. They will not be my shepherds anymore. Then the shepherds will not be able to feed themselves, and I will save my flock from their mouths. Then my sheep will not be food for them.”
11. [color=#990099] The Lord God says, “I myself will be their Shepherd. I will search for my sheep and take care of them. [/color]
12. If a shepherd is with his sheep when they begin to wander away, he will go searching for them. In the same way I will search for my sheep. I will save them and bring them back from all the places where they were scattered on that dark and cloudy day.
13. I will bring them back from those nations. I will gather them from those countries and bring them back to their own land. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the places where people live.
14. I will lead them to grassy fields. They will go to the place high on the mountains of Israel and lie down on good ground and eat the grass. They will eat in rich grassland on the mountains of Israel.
15. [color=#990099] Yes, I will feed my flock, and I will lead them to a place of rest.” This is what the Lord God said.[/color]

16. “I will search for the lost sheep. I will bring back the sheep that were scattered and put bandages on the sheep that were hurt. I will make the weak sheep strong, but I will destroy the fat and powerful shepherds. I will feed them the punishment they deserve.”

God's also lied when He declared that He would fire all His other shepherds and establish Himself as the only shepherd?

Salt06:
Christ is the head of the church and scriptures says he gave gifts unto men for the work of the ministry... I.e delegation of responsibility...

Scripture said that or Paul and Peter said that? Even in the book of Acts, when the apostles appointed for themselves Deacons, they did not say anything like "God said we should appoint some deacons..."..

Salt06:
For the perfecting of the saints...

So, the perfecting of the saints is no longer of the following of Jesus Christ's commandments, as stipulated by Jesus Christ, but instead now through the creation of offices in your churches?

Salt06:
That's why standing in the ministry offices is firstly a calling...
Every believer is called to do the work of the ministry but some are ministry gifts to minister ry to thr body of christ as he has called them...
Just as he called twelve (12) to work with him in scriptures and 70 also to work with him...

Everybody is called to do the work of the ministry? What ministry is that? The one declared in the Covenant, Jesus Christ, the agreement between you, an individual, and God, or some other ministry in addition to your direct contract with God, Jesus Christ?

GeneralDae:
Jesus telling Peter to feed his sheep, simply means he should teach them the word of God and care for them which Peter did in the book of Acts, but Peter was never called a Pastor or Bishop or GO by the early church in the book of Acts simply for teaching the gospel.
Jesus is the only Shephered of his sheep, he appointed Peter as caretaker and a rock to build his Church, but that doesn't translate to the church bureaucracy we find in the epistles of Paul. The truth is that Jesus was against the formation of Heirarchy among his followers.

I have a problem with the popular doctrine that assumes that when Jesus Christ said "Feed my sheep", that He, Jesus Christ, instead meant something like "Teach my sheep", and you know why?
Context!

Why would Jesus Christ, who had just fed these men breakfast, say to a man who had previously denied Him, a sin mind you, to "Teach" His sheep? And why tell Him that at that point?
Also, in Ezekiel 34, where God, speaking of How He will "Feed His Sheep", we clearly see that God literally meant the giving of actual food to His sheep there...

Ezekiel 34 vs 9-16 (ERV)
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9. [color=#000000] So, you shepherds, listen to the word of the Lord! [/color]
10. [color=#000000] The Lord God says, “I am against the shepherds. I will demand my sheep from them. I will fire them. They will not be my shepherds anymore. Then the shepherds will not be able to feed themselves, and I will save my flock from their mouths. Then my sheep will not be food for them.”[/color]
11. [color=#000000] The Lord God says, “I myself will be their Shepherd. I will search for my sheep and take care of them. [/color]
12. If a shepherd is with his sheep when they begin to wander away, he will go searching for them. [color=#000000]In the same way I will search for my sheep. I will save them and bring them back from all the places where they were scattered on that dark and cloudy day. [/color]
13. I will bring them back from those nations. I will gather them from those countries and bring them back to their own land. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the places where people live.
14. I will lead them to grassy fields. They will go to the place high on the mountains of Israel and lie down on good ground and eat the grass. They will eat in rich grassland on the mountains of Israel.
15. Yes, I will feed my flock, and I will lead them to a place of rest.” This is what the Lord God said.
16. “I will search for the lost sheep. I will bring back the sheep that were scattered and put bandages on the sheep that were hurt. I will make the weak sheep strong, but I will destroy the fat and powerful shepherds. I will feed them the punishment they deserve.”

See, the assumption that "Feed my sheep" implies "Teach" my sheep does not correlate at all.

hoopernikao:
You cant see it?
You quoted a STRONG CONCORDANCE and still claim you cant see Peter as Shepherd. You surely will need to read properly.
Dont let honesty elude you Sir.

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The word bosko implies to feed. Who feed the lambs considering Jews culture. A fisherman?
The word Feed is from poimaino
-to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep, to rule, govern, of rulers. to tend as a shepherd of
It is from the word poimēn translated as a herdsman, esp. a shepherd, of the overseers.
All these is from STRONG and yet you cant see it even though you are looking at the book.
Bro, there is a serious issue here and its either with your heart or with your reading.

I am afraid I don't agree with your approach at deciphering the meaning in the use of that word at all. In every human language, the meaning of a word or phrase is not gotten from examining the word in isolation but considering it within the context it was given you.

Now, let's go back and consider the context in which the word was used so we can clearly undertand its meaning, shall we? I would say that the context here is the Kingdom of God - the teachings of Jesus Christ, and from John 10, we already know that Jesus Christ was in no way attempting by that phrase, to install Peter as a leader or ruler over His sheep... this because Jesus Christ is the Truth of God, and short of calling Him a liar in this, we instead assent that whatever He declares is standard of Truth.

John 10 vs 7-20 (ERV)
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7. So Jesus said again, “I assure you, I am the gate for the sheep.
8. All those who came before me were thieves and robbers. The sheep did not listen to them.
9. I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved. They will be able to come in and go out. They will find everything they need.
10. A thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. But I came to give life—life that is full and good.
11. “I am the good shepherd, and the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.
12. The worker who is paid to keep the sheep is different from the shepherd. The paid worker does not own the sheep. So when he sees a wolf coming, he runs away and leaves the sheep alone. Then the wolf attacks the sheep and scatters them.
13. The man runs away because he is only a paid worker. He does not really care for the sheep.

14-15. “I am the shepherd who cares for the sheep. I know my sheep just as the Father knows me. And my sheep know me just as I know the Father. I give my life for these sheep.
16. I have other sheep too. They are not in this flock here. I must lead them also. They will listen to my voice. In the future, there will be one flock and one shepherd.
17. The Father loves me because I give my life. I give my life so that I can get it back again.
18. No one takes my life away from me. I give my own life freely. I have the right to give my life, and I have the right to get it back again. This is what the Father told me.”
19. Again the Jews were divided over what Jesus was saying.
20. Many of them said, “A demon has come into him and made him crazy. Why listen to him?”

Jesus Christ already declared Himself the only Shepherd, so either Jesus Christ lied or Jesus Christ is indeed the Truth of God and "Feed my sheep" does not imply "rule over/govern my sheep".
Next, I want to consider the use of the same phrase elsewhere in scripture where God declares that He will feed His Sheep.

Ezekiel 34 vs 9-16 (ERV)
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9. [color=#000000] So, you shepherds, listen to the word of the Lord! [/color]
10. [color=#000000] The Lord God says, “I am against the shepherds. I will demand my sheep from them. I will fire them. They will not be my shepherds anymore. Then the shepherds will not be able to feed themselves, and I will save my flock from their mouths. Then my sheep will not be food for them.”[/color]
11. [color=#000000] The Lord God says, “I myself will be their Shepherd. I will search for my sheep and take care of them. [/color]
12. If a shepherd is with his sheep when they begin to wander away, he will go searching for them. [color=#000000]In the same way I will search for my sheep. I will save them and bring them back from all the places where they were scattered on that dark and cloudy day. [/color]
13. I will bring them back from those nations. I will gather them from those countries and bring them back to their own land. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the places where people live.
14. I will lead them to grassy fields. They will go to the place high on the mountains of Israel and lie down on good ground and eat the grass. They will eat in rich grassland on the mountains of Israel.
15. Yes, I will feed my flock, and I will lead them to a place of rest.” This is what the Lord God said.
16. “I will search for the lost sheep. I will bring back the sheep that were scattered and put bandages on the sheep that were hurt. I will make the weak sheep strong, but I will destroy the fat and powerful shepherds. I will feed them the punishment they deserve.”

In the above passage, the ONLY shepherd, more than makes it clear that "Feed my sheep" does in fact imply giving them actual food to eat.
From Scripture, we learn that God is True and His Word(Jesus Christ- the Word out of God's own mouth) is Truth. So, the question remains that if we believe that God never meant Himself as the only Shepherd/Teacher/Master/Head/Authority over His sheep, aren't we invariably saying that God lies?

hoopernikao:
@GeneralDae
@Kobojunkie
Explain what "Feed" (poimaino, bosko) mean. Those are exact Jesus words.
Jesus was Jewish, he was speaking to Jews also. You cant neglect their culture and be interpreting scriptures like a Nigeria, African or Englishman.
All through the bible and Jewish culture, What is the person who feeds the lamb called?
Their society mostly have a culture of agrarian and pastoral, No Jew will see the phrase "feed the lamb", and wont understand immediately that you are now to shepherd.
You will need to stop reading Bible with a 20th century mind.
The moment Jesus told Peter to "Feed", Peter knows the responsibility to shepherd the flock is now committed to him. And you saw that all through the early church practices.

Where human language is concerned, words can and do have multiple definitions to them. However, the meaning of a word is typically drawn from the context in which it is used, and not from randomly choosing from the abundance of definitions that it has to itself. The context we are considering is what matters not the various definitions the word itself can have.

And in the context that is the Kingdom of God, the New Covenant agreement that is Jesus Christ, it has already been previously established that there can only be one Shepherd and that one Shepherd is Jesus Christ/God. So, the word "Feed" cannot then be translated to mean that the same Jesus Christ, against His own declaration, declared Peter a shepherd or gave him, Peter, a fisherman, power to rule over his sheep. Such a conclusion is ludicrous at best!

Myer:
Feed in that context doesn't necessarily mean to lead.
It means to continuously preach to them.
Though Jesus did not directly say they were going to lead the church but it's obvious they were selected to lead without lauding it over others.

They were selected to "lead" but not as shepherds?

Myer:
In fact in Jesus' context to lead is to become servants.
John 13: 12-17
When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. “You call me ‘Teacher’and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet.
I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.
Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master,nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

So, Jesus Christ is not the only authority over those in His flock?

Recall the context here is Jesus Christ, the New Covenant agreement between God and individuals, not groups, cause I think we loose sight of this a lot of the times when we discuss and deal with the things of God. Whatever you do, you do, not to other men but to God in this relationship you have with Him.

So when you "serve" , you "serve" God Himself. And when you suggest that you are also to "lead" , what you are saying is that you are to "lead" God in this?

Those who are led submit to those who lead, and throughout His scripture, not once does Jesus Christ suggest to any in His flock that they are not "submit" in anyway or form to the leadership of other but His person or the Spirit of God.
We know that one who follows Jesus Christ is not even meant to live in submission to father, mother, husband or wife in this. Jesus Christ is the one and only Master/Head/Leader allowed. So, why assume submission to your "church" leadership is in anyway implied somewhere in any of His teachings?

Kobojunkie:
Where human language is concerned, words can and do have multiple definitions to them. However, the meaning of a word is typically drawn from the context in which it is used, and not from randomly choosing from the abundance of definitions that it has to itself. The context we are considering is what matters not the various definitions the word itself can have.

And in the context that is the Kingdom of God, the New Covenant agreement that is Jesus Christ, it has already been previously established that there can only be one Shepherd and that one Shepherd is Jesus Christ/God. So, the word "Feed" cannot then be translated to mean that the same Jesus Christ, against His own declaration, declared Peter a shepherd or gave him, Peter, a fisherman, power to rule over his sheep. Such a conclusion is ludicrous at best!

You like avoiding real issues.

There is a text in contention here. That is the text you should explain in context as you said. Explain the usage of that work poimaino in context as used in John 21:16.

What is the meaning of poimaino,

What does it make Peter after Jesus mentioned it.

How was this reflected in the practice of the early church in book of Acts.

Except you want to argue for arguing sake. This is a scripture that is well documented and seen in practice of the early church. Stop denying what is written and practice. It doesn't present you good.

Kobojunkie:
I am afraid I don't agree with your approach at deciphering the meaning in the use of that word at all. In every human language, the meaning of a word or phrase is not gotten from examining the word in isolation but considering it within the context it was given you.

Now, let's go back and consider the context in which the word was used so we can clearly undertand its meaning, shall we? I would say that the context here is the Kingdom of God - the teachings of Jesus Christ, and from John 10, we already know that Jesus Christ was in no way attempting by that phrase, to install Peter as a leader or ruler over His sheep... this because Jesus Christ is the Truth of God, and short of calling Him a liar in this, we instead assent that whatever He declares is standard of Truth. Jesus Christ already declared Himself the only Shepherd, so either Jesus Christ lied or Jesus Christ is indeed the Truth of God and "Feed my sheep" does not imply "rule over/govern my sheep".
Next, I want to consider the use of the same phrase elsewhere in scripture where God declares that He will feed His Sheep.
In the above passage, the ONLY shepherd, more than makes it clear that "Feed my sheep" does in fact imply giving them actual food to eat.
From Scripture, we learn that God is True and His Word(Jesus Christ- the Word out of God's own mouth) is Truth. So, the question remains that if we believe that God never meant Himself as the only Shepherd/Teacher/Master/Head/Authority over His sheep, aren't we invariably saying that God lies?

Is this the context of discussion? You left the text we are discussing John 21:15-17 and you are speaking about context. Do you know what that means at all.

Go and check what explaining in context mean.

We have issue with usage of words in John 21, you go ahead to be explaining another thing.

Your submission absolutely, neglect the culture and tradition where Jesus himself would have borrowed the word poimaino from. Jesus read the OT writing, and his usage of poimaino was consistent with all writers of the scriptures.

The verse you quoted, when Jesus called himself poimen was he a hireling? When shepherd is used all through the Bible context, does it refer to one without rulership or authority?


Please, I have told you severally, don't argue because you just want to defend self doctrine, it will hurt you later. You are only trying to drive same narrative about the church that wasn't seen or taught in the Bible.

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If you are ready for proper exegesis, start now and pull out all usage of the word and explain them all in context. I will appreciate that is done from Old Testament into New to cover all context.

GeneralDae:
So are you saying we have two or more shepherds over the sheep?

Is that what see? Please read my post again.

---

Basic questions we should ask.

Did Jesus delegate his shepherdhood authority to Peter? Yes

What does that makes Peter? A shepherd

Does that remove Peter away from the shepherdhood of Jesus? No.


Jesus was referred to as the chief shepherd by Peter himself.

1 Peter 5:4
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.[/I]

The word Chief shepherd is a single word taking from Greek text archipoimen, arche and poimen.

Arche means [i]first, beginning, the head.

Hence the head of the shepherd, ie that place Jesus as the head of the church.


Firstly, you cant have a chief shepherd without other shepherds under him. That's why he qualified him with Chief.


Read the context of 1 Peter 4 below. Peter was talking to elders, people who shepherd others, hence reminding them of a chief shepherd, the head of all.

1The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Observe his words.

Elders, that is the word used for Pastors, shepherds, in the NT.

Oversight, episkopeo, that's a shepherd that feeds the flock.

Notice,
he called it THE FLOCK OF GOD. That should let you know that the elders were given this responsibility by God himself.

He explained how they should observe their shepherdhood, "not as lord but as ensample," we saw same in Jesus, a shepherd yet a servant.

Then Vs 4, reminded them of the Chief shepherd, the one who owes all the flock including the shepherd.


This is very consistent with the scriptures from OT to NT, consistent with the culture of the Jews in usage of the word shepherd. You can't explain scriptures outside the culture of the language used in writing it. What becomes scriptures today, is a communication among men who uses their culture and language to communicate God's mind.

Hence, giving your own meaning to a word from a different culture or using your own culture to interpret will lead you to wrong knowledge.

Myer:
Jesus is clearly the only shepherd of Christians.

John 10:14-16
“I am the good shepherd.The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also.

They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Jesus says there'll only be 1 shepherd, Him.
Others are hirelings.

Kobojunkie also mentioned why God made that promise in Ezekiel.

The point here being Jesus is the Head, no one else.
There can be teachers and stewards but only Jesus is the Leader/Master/Groom of his ecclesia.

While I agree that yhe ecclesia is subject to tutors, whom we often attribute to be the leaders, Jesus never called them leaders. Because according to his teaching in John 13:1-17, the stewards are actually meant to be servants.

Was Jesus referring to Peter as hireling in Joh. 21:15-17?

Did Jesus forgot the Greek word for hireling to have used poimaino for Peter? Or was there a cultural shock.

Was Peter and Paul unlearned when they used the word poimen for elders in Acts 20 and 1 Peter 4?

The motive behind all this argument is to find a justification for lack of submission to authority. This attitude cannot be seen in the teaching of Christ, Apostles and the practices of the early church.


The pastor of any congregation is the shepherd of such and he is subject to Jesus his master.

Such shepherd must draw his practices from the shepherdhood of Jesus as seen in the Bible, which is service and serving others. This doesn't make his less a shepherd as Jesus serving his disciples doesn't make him less their shepherd.

Hence, men are given responsibility to shepherd God's flock and must do same by drawing leadership from Jesus.

hoopernikao:
Was Jesus referring to Peter as hireling in Joh. 21:15-17?

Did Jesus forgot the Greek word for hireling to have used poimaino for Peter? Or was there a cultural shock.

Was Peter and Paul unlearned when they used the word poimen for elders in Acts 20 and 1 Peter 4?

The motive behind all this argument is to find a justification for lack of submission to authority. This attitude cannot be seen in the teaching of Christ, Apostles and the practices of the early church.


The pastor of any congregation is the shepherd of such and he is subject to Jesus his master.

Such shepherd must draw his practices from the shepherdhood of Jesus as seen in the Bible, which is service and serving others. This doesn't make his less a shepherd as Jesus serving his disciples doesn't make him less their shepherd.

Hence, men are given responsibility to shepherd God's flock and must do same by drawing leadership from Jesus.

Since you're a Bible scholar, I'll point you to another example in the old testament.

After Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt, they spent over 40 years without a entering the promised land.
Through Joshua, they eventually entered the promised land.
Then they had judges, not kings.

On settling down in the promised land, they decided they wanted kings of their own like other nations.

Was God against them having kings or not?

Salt06:
Chist is the chief shepherd...
Christ is the head of the church and scriptures says he gave gifts unto men for the work of the ministry... I.e delegation of responsibility...
For the perfecting of the saints...
That's why standing in the ministry offices is firstly a calling...
Every believer is called to do the work of the ministry but some are ministry gifts to minister ry to thr body of christ as he has called them...
Just as he called twelve (12) to work with him in scriptures and 70 also to work with him...

Do you even know the meaning of the word ministry?

It is simply a fancy word for servant.
To minister means to serve. I know you're hearing this for the first time.
Ministry doesn't mean to lead but to serve.

To be a minister means to serve. You're appointed to serve a people, whether public office or church.

Only Jesus Christ is the Head, leader, Groom, etc of his church.

hoopernikao:
You like avoiding real issues.
There is a text in contention here. That is the text you should explain in context as you said. Explain the usage of that work poimaino in context as used in John 21:16.

What is the meaning of poimaino,

What does it make Peter after Jesus mentioned it.

How was this reflected in the practice of the early church in book of Acts.

Except you want to argue for arguing sake. This is a scripture that is well documented and seen in practice of the early church. Stop denying what is written and practice. It doesn't present you good.

Again...

Where human language is concerned, words can and do have multiple definitions to them. However, the meaning of a word is typically drawn from the context in which it is used, and not from randomly choosing from the abundance of definitions that it has to itself. The context we are considering is what matters not the various definitions the word itself can have.

And in the context that is the Kingdom of God, the New Covenant agreement that is Jesus Christ, it has already been previously established that there can only be one Shepherd and that one Shepherd is Jesus Christ/God. So, the word "Feed" cannot then be translated to mean that the same Jesus Christ, against His own declaration, declared Peter a shepherd or gave him, Peter, a fisherman, power to rule over his sheep. Such a conclusion is ludicrous at best!