₦airaland Forum

hopefulLandlord:
The problem with the examples you gave is that following traffic rules doesn't promise you an accident free life or at least I've never heard ministry of transportation claim that. For the smoking example the word "Liable" is simply "Likely" so they aren't saying you're definitely dying young if you smoke. However I've heard several preachers claim that prayer would definitely work for you. even the holy bible have several verses saying you'd get what you want even if your faith isn't big at all. If we go by conclusion from the bible and preachers who preach with these verses then my premise and conclusion is sound

So you want the ministry to expressly state it before you know? There are not a religious body and so are expected to deal with the public in a formal manner so as to avoid any form of lawsuit

Liable is liable I never in anyway suggest definite. I am trying to present your logic to you in another form so you see ,maybe ,more clearly what you did

Some preachers may be wrong. We know that Some Doctor give wrong diagnosis sometimes. That should not be enough reason to form an opinion about general medical practice. As for the Bible saying you require a little faith, well I have not forgotten my Bible. There's nothing like that. Please provide the passage in the Bible.

LordReed:
Where did you get this assertion from?

Is there a thing we haven't read on NL?

Words, like
when you stop belief in God, you are on your way to enlightenment

Only idiots belief in a god.

Etc

You are a veteran on NL, you shouldn't be asking this, you know it. Hardly will you find an acclaimed atheist who doesn't hold this view. Yet many of them cannot even understand their own very write up.

HardMirror:
the guy is stupid. Pointless engaging him.

Why the pain Bro?

You want me to believe your false and emotional narrative. Someone who oppose you now is stupid. Pèlé. Too much of a wiseman. Better get alright and enjoy your day.

triplechoice:
So you want the ministry to expressly state it before you know? There are not a religious body and so are expected to deal with the public in a formal manner so as to avoid any form of lawsuit

They can't state it that way because it's very possible to follow all road laws and get screwed over by those who don't! a vehicle parts can fail and manufacturers can make a mistake which is why certain cars get recalled

Liable is liable I never in anyway suggest definite. I am trying to present your logic to you in another form so you see ,maybe ,more clearly what you did

I don't see what message you're trying to say here. are you agreeing with me?

Some preachers may be wrong. We know that Some Doctor give wrong diagnosis sometimes. That should not be enough reason to form an opinion about general medical practice. As for the Bible saying you require a little faith, well I have not forgotten my Bible. There's nothing like that. Please provide the passage in the Bible.

And Jesus answered and said to them, “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen. “And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” (Matthew 21:21-22)

Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20)

Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25)

And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14)

(Matthew 17:20 For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.)

hupernikao:
Okay Sir. That's why the OP wrote it for some to believe it. So am not surprised.

It's simply called a fallacy of appeal to ignorance. Read on it. A watery defence intelligently robbed on unnoticed emotions.


I hope you hold the below premise too

Premise 1: Some who go to school and some who didn't are poor
Premise 2: Some who don't go to school and some who did are rich.
Conclusion: Then that means school is useless.


Now go back to your premise, likely when you reread and think through it the 10th time you may likely be rescued from the OP trap.

Schooling has NEVER been claimed by reliable authority to prevent poverty. or where exactly is it stated that you'd become rich if you go to school?

hopefulLandlord:
They can't state it that way because it's very possible to follow all road laws and get screwed over by those who don't! a vehicle parts can fail and manufacturers can make a mistake which is why certain cars get recalled I don't see what message you're trying to say here. are you agreeing with me?
And Jesus answered and said to them, “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen. “And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” (Matthew 21:21-22)

Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20)

Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25)

And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14)

(Matthew 17:20 For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.)

I never dismiss your argument completely. My position is that it is not cogent enough to convince a Christian faithful to abandon prayers, that is, if you're see things from their own perspective.

Amongss those that survived, were people who prayed and believed after rescue, that their prayers were answered.

So, do you think your arguments is persuasive enough to convince them and their family members that their prayers were not answered even if others did not make it. Have you not heard Christians saying that their God has the prerogative to choose who to save or who not to save?

If that's is what they believe, what makes you think your arguments can work. Or is it not directed at them.

As for the bible passages you quoted ,one can not fail not to see that they come with certain conditions.

How were you able to evaluate the mental state of those who prayed to know if those conditions were met?

Please I need an answer to the above and don't skip it.

Now, Matt. 17.20 doesn't mean small faith or little faith as you interpret it. Even most Christians don't even know exactly what it means.

The mustard seed metaphorically represent a faith that is complete and certain because when you plant a mustard seed you're sure of having a huge an mighty tree later.

It is the Certainty of this outcome about the mustard seed when planted that is being referred to in that passage if not the same Jesus would not later accused his disciples of having little faith when they saw him walking on the sea. That would be contradicting himself..

Someone who is praying and at the same time crying ( doubting) is not certain and so can't be said to have the faith of a mustard seed.

Let me remind you again, I am not a Christian and not defending the religion. But to let you know that your arguments can't convince any neutral judge ,not to talk of a Christian faithful that prayers are useless. You need to come up with something better.

Put yourself in the position of those you're trying to convince

hupernikao:


Is there a thing we haven't read on NL?

Words, like
when you stop belief in God, you are on your way to enlightenment

Only idiots belief in a god.

Etc

You are a veteran on NL, you shouldn't be asking this, you know it. Hardly will you find an acclaimed atheist who doesn't hold this view. Yet many of them cannot even understand their own very write up.

Really? Please quote an acclaimed atheist saying it.

hopefulLandlord:
The problem with the examples you gave is that following traffic rules doesn't promise you an accident free life or at least I've never heard ministry of transportation claim that. For the smoking example the word "Liable" is simply "Likely" so they aren't saying you're definitely dying young if you smoke. However I've heard several preachers claim that prayer would definitely work for you. even the holy bible have several verses saying you'd get what you want even if your faith isn't big at all. If we go by conclusion from the bible and preachers who preach with these verses then my premise and conclusion is sound

as said before. These people are daft. Yes, not smoking does not guarantee anyone to live long as you could die from other things, BUT smoking greatly increases your chance of dying. Now does prayer live up to the expectations it is based on in the first place? No. Why prayer is useless but they just are too dumb to know this

LordReed:
Really? Please quote an acclaimed atheist saying it.

well I stand by it that any religious person that becomes an atheist is beginning to think much more than he/she used to. This does not mean he becomes one of the most brilliant humans on earth. But surely, such a person has become a better thinker than he/she used to be. I stand by this any time any day. Any Christian who becomes an atheist immediately realizes what a fool he used to be

LordReed:
Really? Please quote an acclaimed atheist saying it.

LordReeddddd
Even on this tread, at least 2-3 atheists already stated that. I don't need to quote, read through the tread from beginning. By now you should know I am a detailed person. I read tread patiently before even commenting.

Read it from beginning. It's not a news though its a self deception by most of them.

HardMirror:
well I stand by it that any religious person that becomes an atheist is beginning to think much more than he/she used to. This does not mean he becomes one of the most brilliant humans on earth. But surely, such a person has become a better thinker than he/she used to be. I stand by this any time any day. Any Christian who becomes an atheist immediately realizes what a fool he used to be

LordReed, there you have your answers.

hupernikao:
LordReed, there you have your answers.

Your claim was that acclaimed atheists hold the view that atheists are more knowledgeable, HardMirror's post says nothing like that so again where is the acclaimed atheist saying atheists are more knowledgeable.

hopefulLandlord:
Schooling has NEVER been claimed by reliable authority to prevent poverty. or where exactly is it stated that you'd become rich if you go to school?

Premise Bro, Premise. Don't loose focus and start looking at other details. Your assertion on prayers neglected all details and focus on that two premises. You can't change the game with school.

A logical fallacy will always have a way out when questioned. But your premise is what we will hold to discuss your claim.

I only use that school logic to let you see the lack of thoughtfulness in the OP conclusion on prayers using that premise.

So, you will need more than appealing to ignorance to defend a claim. That's the truth in this example.

HardMirror:
as said before. These people are daft. Yes, not smoking does not guarantee anyone to live long as you could die from other things, BUT smoking greatly increases your chance of dying. Now does prayer live up to the expectations it is based on in the first place? No. Why prayer is useless but they just are too dumb to know this

You are just shouting daft up and down and you haven't communicate wisdom even from the OP. Is daft new in your lexicon? Please communicate and stop being emotional.

hupernikao:
LordReeddddd
Even on this tread, at least 2-3 atheists already stated that. I don't need to quote, read through the tread from beginning. By now you should know I am a detailed person. I read tread patiently before even commenting.

Read it from beginning. It's not a news though its a self deception by most of them.

Checked from beginning, you are the only one who has said it.

LordReed:
Your claim was that acclaimed atheists hold the view that atheists are more knowledgeable, HardMirror's post says nothing like that so again where is the acclaimed atheist saying atheists are more knowledgeable.

Read me again below.and compare to what he said.

Words, like
when you stop belief in God, you are on your way to enlightenment

Only idiots belief in a god.

This is what HardMirror said just now.

HardMirror: But surely, such a person has become a better thinker than he/she used to be. I stand by this any time any day. Any Christian who becomes an atheist immediately realizes what a fool he used to be

It's obvious like many, he doesn't even know what it means to be an atheist. We have illiterates who are atheist. Being an atheist has nothing to do with thinking knowledge, it's a decision.


Read those untrained atheists psychologists below too.

Haykinsofficial :
Religion is meant for the weaklings, faint-hearted,

Femzaremz: I personally believe that anybody who still believes in god,has something seriously wrong with them!

A001: Foolish, brainless clown

Just a random samples above.

You could also see how HardMirror is shouting daft, daft around, qualifying one who hold a different view from him. He already assumed a position of knowledge while knowing nothing.

LordReed:
Checked from beginning, you are the only one who has said it.

I already gave you what you asked even though you know it..
I should only be asking if there is any atheist on NL who doesn't hold such unwise claim.

hupernikao:
Read me again below.and compare to what he said.



This is what HardMirror said just now.



It's obvious like many, he doesn't even know what it means to be an atheist. We have illiterates who are atheist. Being an atheist has nothing to do with thinking knowledge, it's a decision.


Read those untrained atheists psychologists below too.









Just a random samples above.

You could also see how HardMirror is shouting daft, daft around, qualifying one who hold a different view from him. He already assumed a position of knowledge while knowing nothing.

hey bro! Look here,I might not be intelligent, but I have one special skill I think most theists lack! Which is,I can't lie to myself! It is obvious that to believe in God, you must have to lie to yourself at times! It is obvious prayers are useless (except you want to lie to yourself!) Just look at what is
what is going on around the world, and tell me if it looks as if the all loving father, benevolent,merciful God which our religion imposed upon us is in charge of all this mess!

hupernikao:
Premise Bro, Premise. Don't loose focus and start looking at other details. Your assertion on prayers neglected all details and focus on that two premises. You can't change the game with school.

A logical fallacy will always have a way out when questioned. But your premise is what we will hold to discuss your claim.

I only use that school logic to let you see the lack of thoughtfulness in the OP conclusion on prayers using that premise.

So, you will need more than appealing to ignorance to defend a claim. That's the truth in this example.

You still haven't shown the fallacy. you keep trying but so far nothing has proven it. the premises are still sound so far. schooling has never been claimed to make you rich. Prayer has always been touted to work always

hupernikao:
Read me again below.and compare to what he said.



This is what HardMirror said just now.



It's obvious like many, he doesn't even know what it means to be an atheist. We have illiterates who are atheist. Being an atheist has nothing to do with thinking knowledge, it's a decision.


Read those untrained atheists psychologists below too.









Just a random samples above.

You could also see how HardMirror is shouting daft, daft around, qualifying one who hold a different view from him. He already assumed a position of knowledge while knowing nothing.

This is what you said atheists say

hupernikao:

I thought they said atheist are full of knowledge,

No one else has said it apart from you. I didn't ask about any other thing you purport atheists to have said. So can you produce where an acclaimed atheist said it or are you speaking out of turn?

hupernikao:
I already gave you what you asked even though you know it..
I should only be asking if there is any atheist on NL who doesn't hold such unwise claim.

You made a particular statement I inquired about no one else has made that statement here nor have you shown me anyone else making the statement so what are you saying you gave me.

I have not seen any atheist on NL make that claim so if you have point out were it was made. In fact I have not seen any atheist make that claim anywhere online. If you have you can link it here.

hupernikao:
You could also see how HardMirror is shouting daft, daft around, qualifying one who hold a different view from him. He already assumed a position of knowledge while knowing nothing.

You could see I just ignored him. The wrong impression he has of himself is obviously the problem.

Femzaremz:
hey bro! Look here,I might not be intelligent, but I have one special skill I think most theists lack! Which is,I can't lie to myself! It is obvious that to believe in God, you must have to lie to yourself at times! It is obvious prayers are useless (except you want to lie to yourself!) Just look at what is
what is going on around the world, and tell me if it looks as if the all loving father, benevolent,merciful God which our religion imposed upon us is in charge of all this mess!

According to them,

The world is perfect.....



What else??

LordReed:
This is what you said atheists say

hupernikao:

I thought they said atheist are full of knowledge,

No one else has said it apart from you. I didn't ask about any other thing you purport atheists to have said. So can you produce where an acclaimed atheist said it or are you speaking out of turn?

When that statement was made, you inquired and I gave you explanation of that as below.

Is there a thing we haven't read on NL?

Words, like
when you stop belief in God, you are on your way to enlightenment

Only idiots belief in a god.

Etc

That is explanatory except you want to take my narratives in silos. The context of "atheist are full of knowledge" are all trademark in almost all NL atheist writings. I have given you text written by some. If you feel that doesn't answer that claim, then, likely we read differently.

But like I said, the OP already confirmed to you boldly that the claim is true. "Anyone who walk the path of atheism is on road to enlightenment" he said.

That is the focus of the claim and its already proven to you by the OP.

hopefulLandlord:
You still haven't shown the fallacy. you keep trying but so far nothing has proven it. the premises are still sound so far. schooling has never been claimed to make you rich. Prayer has always been touted to work always

Okay Sir. You have won.

Femzaremz:
hey bro! Look here,I might not be intelligent, but I have one special skill I think most theists lack! Which is,I can't lie to myself! It is obvious that to believe in God, you must have to lie to yourself at times! It is obvious prayers are useless (except you want to lie to yourself!) Just look at what is
what is going on around the world, and tell me if it looks as if the all loving father, benevolent,merciful God which our religion imposed upon us is in charge of all this mess!

Another claim. "A skill all theist lack" . @LordReed hope you can read this too. He has a brilliant skill that no single theist can have. Is like atheism usually placed his adherent on a Rollercoaster of self adoration.


Such thinking as above is already a big read flag for me to know such individual doesn't only know nothing on what's being discussed but have a localized community thinking.

It's not enough to just type. You have to think through what you typed.


@Femzaremz
I may not know the background you are coming from but know that no one force anything on you. At least that's why you can have freedom to display "a skill no one has".

Secondly, you are most likely a victim of false information.

But know this,
There is something more dangerous than lying to yourself and that's the skill you display here.

hupernikao:
You are just shouting daft up and down and you haven't communicate wisdom even from the OP. Is daft new in your lexicon? Please communicate and stop being emotional.

lol. E pain am

triplechoice:
You could see I just ignored him. The wrong impression he has of himself is obviously the problem.

as if you had intelligent contribution before. Abeg get out of here. None of you have made any sense or addressed the issue raised in the op and you are here talking about hardmirror. Shey it is hardmirror that did not help those that died ? How does any of your yeye rant about hardmirror address the issue of the uselessness of prayers? Is hardmirror the topic of the op? Yeye people that are not ready to be honest with themselves.

hupernikao:
When that statement was made, you inquired and I gave you explanation of that as below.



That is explanatory except you want to take my narratives in silos. The context of "atheist are full of knowledge" are all trademark in almost all NL atheist writings. I have given you text written by some. If you feel that doesn't answer that claim, then, likely we read differently.

But like I said, the OP already confirmed to you boldly that the claim is true. "Anyone who walk the path of atheism is on road to enlightenment" he said.

That is the focus of the claim and its already proven to you by the OP.

Explain how "Anyone who walk the path of atheism is on road to enlightenment" is the same as "atheist are full of knowledge".

hupernikao:
Another claim. "A skill all theist lack" . @LordReed hope you can read this too. He has a brilliant skill that no single theist can have. Is like atheism usually placed his adherent on a Rollercoaster of self adoration.


Such thinking as above is already a big read flag for me to know such individual doesn't only know nothing on what's being discussed but have a localized community thinking.

It's not enough to just type. You have to think through what you typed.


@Femzaremz
I may not know the background you are coming from but know that no one force anything on you. At least that's why you can have freedom to display "a skill no one has".

Secondly, you are most likely a victim of false information.

But know this,
There is something more dangerous than lying to yourself and that's the skill you display here.

You are the one lying to yourself. You made a categorical statement that you are now trying to explain away with obfuscations.

LordReed:
You are the one lying to yourself. You made a categorical statement that you are now trying to explain away with obfuscations.

lol. Abeg free the man he don confuse finish.