₦airaland Forum

AntiChristian:
From Numbers 5: 11- 31
I’ll just say in brief, it says that… ‘The priest should take holy water in a vessel, take dust from the floor, and put it into the vessel - And that is the bitter water ‘And after cursing it, give it to the woman And if the woman has committed adultery, after she drinks it, the curse will enter her body, the stomach will swell, the thigh will rot, and she shall be cursed by the people. If the woman has not committed adultery, she will remain clean and she will bear the seed.

Why can't Christian countries try this method on those cases?

Advocatejare, Rightchannel, Truthisunique3, GreatAxeMan, Lee29, ANTIlSLAM, ifiokjohn, Agbegbaorogboye, BePrepared, jesusjnr2020, Ikechukwumdy, HedwigesMaduro kindly benefit us with your holy spirit charged knowledge on this method.

cornelboy:
That's rather a spiritual method
Jesus said it's no longer "an eye for and eye".
Jesus brought love. Would like you your woman's thigh to rot

Israel was a stiff-necked nation and God gave them hard rules.

elated177:
Are you advising the followers of the Messiah to condone adultery?

Does love cover adultery?

How do you people handle issues bordering on adultery in your group?

cornelboy:
Do you know the story of the woman caught in adultery and the pharisees? Jesus didn't condemn her to be stoned to death. He told her to go and sin no more!

cornelboy:
Do you know the story of the woman caught in adultery and the pharisees?

Jesus didn't condemn her to be stoned to death. He told her to go and sin no more!

elated177:
[b] Matthew 19: 8 Yahushua replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Again, are you advising the saints to accept adulterous spouses?

cornelboy:
Did i mention anything about divorce?
Abeg na.

elated177:
What's with the evasiveness? Just give me straight answers, cornelboy. How do you suggest a saint of Yahushua the Messiah handles an adulterous wife? Also, how will you advise a saint handles an adulterous husband?

How do you people handle cases of adultery in your midst?

cornelboy:
Jesus taught that a man could divorce his wife if she was unfaithful, committed adultery.

cornelboy:
That's rather a spiritual method
Jesus said it's no longer "an eye for and eye".
Jesus brought love. Would like you your woman's thigh to rot

Israel was a stiff-necked nation and God gave them hard rules.

cornelboy:
Didn't your Koran command you to read the bible for more knowledge when your confused about something

HedwigesMaduro:
Yeah. We've lost the countries. Maybe, just maybe because we decided to allow people to choose their religion, instead of saying "choose Islam or be beheaded".

AntiChristian:
Where did Jesus said such statement?
In Matthew 5:7, Jesus said “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.

AntiChristian:
Where did the Qur'an mention "Bible" as you put it?

cornelboy:
What's the injil and Torah

cornelboy:
How did Jesus accomplish their purpose?

AntiChristian:
Injeel is the revelation given to Jesus While the Torah is that given to Moses. Are these two what is called the Bible today?

cornelboy:
The Koran is a revelation given to Mohammed, are you sure it's the original revelation given to him you have today?

What bout the thousands of books given to all the prophets in the Koran?
The book given to Adam, Abraham, lot, Isaac, Noah, Ishmael, Solomon et al, where are those books today? Allah and the people given it to didn't preserve it?

Mind you the Torah is the whole book of the OT not just the books of Moses (the first five books of the OT).

You really think Jesus was given a book?

It was the illiteracy of Mohammed that made him think that the gospels are books given to Jesus. Jesus never wrote a book, his disciples did.
He erroneously thought that every prophet was sent with a book. He wrote a book himself

Some times i wonder why some stories in the Koran is similar to Bible's.
Mohammed did a great work by copying from the bible. Little wonder he said you should consult the bible if you want more knowledge about things.

You should know that the injeel and Torah were intact during the life of Mohammed and the Torah had been written hundreds of years before Mohammed was born.
If not Mohammed wouldn't have mentioned it.
You think the Jews and the christian didn't preserve their books but the Muslim did?

Alaye go reason am

Yes i am sure.
The books were for the people/Nation they were meant for. They were not meant to be preserved.

I'm also sure that the Bible has survived translations

No, the Torah mentioned in the Qur'an was revealed to Moses.

Where did i mention that? Jesus was given a revelation which is called Injeel. This he taught his disciples and people.

See another lie from this Christian. Where did he call the Injeel book written down? Every messenger has revelations which can be in book form like that of Moses or otherwise. Jesus wrote nothing during his lifetime.

This is simply because the Bible as it is today still contain some truths about what happened earlier mixed with falsehood as it passed through men

We know Muhammad was unlettered and never read your Bible as your Bible was unavailable back then! Note i said your Bible not Tawrah of Moses and Injeel of Jesus.

Open 1 John 5:7 in the KJV Bible and then other translations.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible says it is likely this verse is not genuine

Any seeker of truth should not find it difficult to disregard the bible being the complete word of God rather it is a book that contains the words of God, Historians, Poets, Kings, etc...

cornelboy:
The prophet of islam was sent to which nation and people?
I'm also sure that the Bible has survived translations

But wait o, do you really think the Koran is genuine?
What about those copies of the Koran the first caliphate of islam burned after Mohammed's death?
How are we sure the one he authorized is original?

Pls can you show it from the Koran?

If Mohammed referred to this injeel in his days, definitely the injeel was intact in Mohammed's lifetime. What makes you think the christians didn't protect their book like you think the Muslims did?

Can you proof that Jesus didn't write anything down from the Koran?

How would Mohammed or Allah tell you to consult the Torah and injeel if they weren't written down?

I'll give you the verses that refer to the injeel as scriptures for the christians

Why was the satanic verses removed from the koran

How did you know that the Bible contain falsehood, do you have the originals?

You think say you smart lol
Do you know any history about the bible at all?
Go and and read history well. The whole old testament had been existing hundreds of years before Mohammed's parent were born

Was Mohammed deaf or how did he receive revelation from Gabriel?

Perhaps the "Gabriel" revealing things to Mohammed was a literate guy reading and translating the bible to Mohammed

You see yourself that king James is a deviant translation. The team that translated it put their idea of Trinity into the verse.

I'll research on 1 Samuel 13:1 and address it later. But you sure know that that verse ain't hiding any special truth

It's obvious that every word in the bible was not spoken directly by Jehovah God.
The bible is historically accurate, archeology has proven the bible to be historically accurate.
Remember the bible wasn't a single book. It's the compilation of different books by different authors.

The Qu'ran was compiled less than 2yrs after the Prophet's death. It is no news that the Qur'an was memorised unlike any other scripture. The compilation was with the first caliph Abu bakr till he died. It was then with Umar the 2nd Caliph till he died. Uthman the 3rd Caliph then collected the manuscript from Hafsah the daughter of Umar. It was this manuscript that was transcribed and sent everywhere when there was recitation disputes.

He was sent to all mankind and Jinn.

The Qur'an was preserved.

Where was that and what was the context/setting of such verse?

Satanic verses? Never heard of them. Qur'an has been memorised and inherited from generations to generations from about 1,500 years ago.

The old testament was existing since aeon! This does not mean it wasn't susceptible to alterations! It wasn't available on the internet then. So i wonder how it was preserved for over thousands of years without errors!

It shows that the KJV of 1611 was defective. So all others before it too would be defective.

Your response @ AntiChristian:
He was sent to all mankind and Jinn.

Your response @ AntiChristian
Injeel was a revelation from Allah to Jesus which he taught his disciples and people during his time on earth. Jesus did not write it down. However his disciples may have done so. This were circulated and mixed with many falsehood.

cornelboy:
I'll fully address this later.
But go check your history. After Mohammed's death copy of korans were burnt and only one was authorized

I doubt

If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee (10:94 AYA/95 MP)

Bobo think. If the old testament had been existing hundreds of year before Mohammed was born and he confirmed it later in his lifetime to be intact and unadulterated. Why would you think it's corrupted and not preserved now and the Koran was preserve

If other translations after the KJV could expose it how much more translations before it? Think bobo.

cornelboy:
How did Mohammed send Allah's message to the jinns

Surah 14:4
And We have sent no Messenger
save with the tongue of his people,
that he might make all clear to them;

Conditions given by the Koran:
i. Allah only send messenger in the language of his people..
Ii. To make the message clear to the people

If Muhammad then claims that he is sent to all people of all languages (mankind), then he is not one of the Messengers of Allah, since he does not satisfy the explicitly stated conditions.

Where did the Koran explicitly states that Mohammed was sent to all mankind?

One should also not overlook that the conditions are stating that he (the messenger) might make all clear to them. Granted, Muhammad fulfills the absolutely trivial and irrelevant condition that he brought the message in his own language (Arabic), but it is simply not true that Muhammad personally went to all mankind and made it clear to them. This verse does not say that Allah ordered his messenger(s) to teach and appoint others who then in turn would go out to the people to make it clear to them. No, the formulation is personal. It is the messenger himself who does it. Though Muhammad personally spoke to many people from various Arab tribes, he never went to other people groups, let alone all people groups of mankind, in order to make Allah's message clear to them. So, how can he satisfy the criterion? According to this verse, he could at most be a messenger to the Arabs.

Did the Koran claim that he was sent to all mankind?

cornelboy:
Where in the Koran does it explicitly state that the injil is a revelation given to Jesus?


And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). S. 5:46 Al-Hilali & Khan; cf. S. 57:27

He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet." S. 19:30 Arberry

It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). S. 3:3 Al-Hilali & Khan

The Qur'an also contains a second set of statements regarding the Injil:

Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. ... S. 5:47 Al-Hilali & Khan

Say: "People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ... S. 5:68 Arberry

Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel [Injil] (which are) with them. S. 7:157

[Say (O Muhammad SAW)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. S. 6:114 Al-Hilali & Khan

The Contradiction

However, here is the problem: when we look at the New Testament, the book which is the Scripture of the Christians, we see that it nowhere makes the claim that it is a book that was "given to Jesus". On the contrary, the New Testament consists of several books that were written by followers of Jesus (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) AFTER the ascension of Jesus.

Therefore, the Injil can EITHER be a book given to Jesus, OR it can be the book that the Christians hold as they Holy Scriptures, but it cannot be both. Muhammad apparently assumed that the Scripture of the Christians (and Jews) would be very similar to the Qur'an, the book which he thought he received from Allah. However, Muhammad was clearly ignorant of the matter. The essential nature of the Qur'an and the Bible are very different. A book "given to Jesus" in a similar way as Muhammad claims to have received the Qur'an does not exist and Christians have never claimed that such a book existed at any time. This claim of S. 5:46 is merely a wrong idea that sprang from the mind of Muhammad.

Had the author of the Qur'an made only statements like those found in S. 5:46 and 19:30, it might have been an option for Muslims to claim that the Injil of Jesus was simply lost. Jesus indeed received such a book but, somehow, it disappeared. Muslims could have said that the NT clearly is something very different from the Injil as defined by the Qur'an, and could have concluded that therefore they do not believe in the Christian New Testament since the Qur'an does not endorse it.

However, the second set of statements above prevents this explanation. The Qur'an identifies the Injil as the Scripture of the Christians. Thus, since the Injil is the book of the Christians, the Qur'an makes a blatantly wrong claim about the basic nature of the Injil. It neither is nor ever was a book given to Jesus.

The Source?

How could this error arise in the mind of Muhammad? He may have heard statements like in the first verse of the Gospel according to Mark:

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, ...

and mistakenly thought that this meant the same as "the Torah of Moses" i.e. a revelation given to a prophet in form of a book. However, reading the context shows that it means "this is the beginning of the Gospel ABOUT Jesus Christ"; the Gospel is the message telling us about the life and teaching of Jesus, written up by his followers, not a book given to Jesus himself.

Muhammad projected his own experience of receiving revelation of a book (the Qur'an) on Jesus and simply assumed that the book OF Jesus that was held sacred by his followers must also have been a book given TO Jesus (like the sacred book of the Muslims is the book given TO Muhammad). However, Muhammad was wrong about this, and this mistake exposes the Qur'an as a forgery. The Qur'an is not divine revelation but a collection of mistaken assumptions by its author.

But the Bible is corrupted!

In most cases when the Qur'an contradicts the Bible, Muslims shout, "but the Bible is corrupted", as if that is the answer and solution to every such problem.

There are at least two reasons why this response will not solve the problem.

First, the Qur'an never claims that the Injil is corrupted. There are certain accusations against the Jews, but no charge that the Christians corrupted their Scripture. The section, What the Qur'an says about the Bible, investigates this matter closely and shows that the Qur'an does not support the Muslim claim of Bible corruption.

Second, even if there had been some corruption of certain passages, small changes resulting in certain shifts of meaning, this cannot possibly explain the above contradiction in the Qur'an. Here we have a fundamental difference in the nature of the book which cannot be accounted for either with gradual changes or with a sudden change.

For illustration: The Qur'an is (allegedly) a book that was "sent down" from Allah to Muhammad. It was (supposedly) not written by Muhammad but given to him by Allah. On the other hand, the Hadith are memories of the companions and followers of Muhammad, formulated and written up by Muslims long after the death of Muhammad. They are their recollection of what Muhammad said and did.

Would it be possible for anyone to change the Qur'an (the book given to Muhammad) into a collection of hadiths without the Muslim community realizing that their scripture had changed into something entirely different?

Without doubt, the Muslim answer will be a resounding NO. But if that is impossible for the Muslim book and community, why would any Muslim think that this would have been possible in the Christian community? Originally, the Christians had a "book given to Jesus" but one day they woke up and their scripture had turned into a collection of writings by followers of Jesus and nobody realized the change, and nobody protested against it? Believing such a theory demands a lot of blind faith in the Qur'an. It is impossible. Anyone with the least bit of common sense will have to conclude that this cannot possibly have happened, and this implies that the author of the Qur'an simply made an error regarding the nature of the Christian Scripture.

Jochen Katz

cornelboy:
Does the Koran approve the bible or disapprove it?

What are the Jewish and Christian Scriptures?

From the time of Jesus, the Jews and Christians have always shared the same holy book. In Judaism it is called the Tonach or Hebrew Bible, and in Christianity, the Old Testament. In this book are the Torah, the Prophets, and the Psalms. These are the scriptures of the Jewish Prophets before Jesus. Christians have always honoured and read this scripture that first came to the Jews. This scripture is the first section of the Christian Bible.

There is another book of scripture about which many Jews and Christians do not agree. This book too has been given various names in different cultures. It has been called The Gospel or the New Testament or the New Covenant. Christians accept the Gospel as scripture. This book is the second section of the Bible.

Thus all the scriptures of the Jews and Christians are found in the Bible. There exists today ancient Bibles from the time of Muhammad and hundreds of years before his time. Scholars use these ancient scriptures to show that modern Bibles are genuine.

Some people claim that when the Qur'an refers to the Torah or the Gospel that it is not referring to the books Jews and Christians have today. However the Qur'an does not claim this. When the Qur'an speaks of the Torah and the Gospel it is referring to the books which the Jews and Christians possessed at the time of Muhammad.

Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them (7:157 MP).

And when there cometh unto them (Jews) a Scripture (the Qur'an) from Allah, confirming that in their possession (2:89 MP).

Muhammad lived during the 6th/7th century A.D. We have Bibles from before, during and after this time. This archaeological evidence allows us to be sure that the Torah and Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an are the same books that are found in the Bible today.

This fact is also confirmed by Ibn Ishaq who wrote the earliest biography (Sirat) of Muhammad. He clearly indentifies the Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an as what Christians call the New Testament.

Among the things which have reached me about what Jesus the Son of Mary stated in the Gospel which he received from God for the followers of the Gospel, in applying a term to describe the apostle of God, is the following. It is extracted from what John the Apostle set down for them when he wrote the Gospel for them from the Testament of Jesus Son of Mary (Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", translated as "The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume, Karachi: Oxford, 1998, pp. 103-104, bold added.)
Here we see Ibn Ishaq refer to the Apostle John and the Gospel that he wrote. This is simply what Christians call the Gospel according to John and it is part of the New Testment.

AntiChristian:
You have answered your question already.
I think you should try and answer this questions on your Bible.

1.Who compiled the Bible?
2. When was it compiled?
3. How was it compiled?
4. Where was it compiled?
5. Who were its copyists at each points of compilations?
6. How reliable were the compilers and copyists?
7. Paul who wrote about 13 books of the Bible never met Jesus in real life. Yet he wrote more that all Jesus's disciples combined. Explain this?
8. Luke and Mark wrote from hearsays. They never met Jesus. How can we verify the sources and reliability of their Books?
8. Who were its chains of transmitters from generations to generations?
9. How can the authors be verified whey they mention their name in the verses?
10. Who are the authors?
11. How can we verify these authors in 8 above?
12. Archaeology disproves the "Noah and the flood" story. It has truly proved many biblical stories to be true but it also disproves many so archeology has no say in these!

You didn't mention the Apocrypha, the council of Nicea, etc.

The Qur'an ascribed the Torah to Moses and Injeel to Jesus. In contrast your Bible is not from Jesus and Moses only!

The Torah is the Book revealed as a Book to Moses.

Ibn Ishaq is a historian who get some stories right and some wrong! If he spoke evil about Jesus would you believe him?

AntiChristian:
Conclusion

The Qur'an maintains that the Bible is the word of God and no distinction is to be made between any of the holy books. Therefore if you are a Muslim you should not attack the Bible - the Qur'an upholds it!

The Bible is taught to be a source of guidance for Jews and Christians who wish to know the will of God, and so the Qur'an encourages Jews and Christians to obey their scripture and never asks them to deny it. The Qur'an says the Bible foretells the coming of Muhammad and it never says that faithful Jews or Christians have corrupted their scripture.

AntiChristian is the injeel a written book or just a revelation never written down?

.

cornelboy:
The Koran ascribe it or not is not my concern.
The fact is that the book of Genesis to Malachi are books of the Jews. These books are compiled together in sequence and it contains mostly the history of God's chosen people, the Israelites.
It's in between those accounts recorded in the Old testament that God gave His words to His prophets.

It's quite illogical to say that the five books of Moses (Genesis to Deuteronomy) were literally given to Moses like it was given to Mohammed.
The books contain real events that were written down.

Go and study your Koran well

Are you saying that the Hadiths are not to be trusted? Cos there's no way we could separate this right and wrong you talked about. And IBN ishaq no be your mate

Allah promise to guide the Koran from corruption but didn't guide the first holy books from corruption. Make ona de whine ona sef