₦airaland Forum

You keep speaking about territorial integrity according to UN law. Where was UN when americans bombed Belgrade just to allow Kosovo get away. Was there no law on territorial integrity when the US, UK, Ukraine and other criminals invaded Iraq and destroyed it?

How can you obey a law only when it favours you and still have the audacity to quite it?

Forget about all the whitewash with democracy and free media. The US is the most warlike nation in the history of the world and it can get away with it because it is influential. They are like my rich uncle who made his money selling drugs and killing people but I dare not say bad about him because he pays my school fees. Support whoever favours you but don't ever try to justify evil.

atmy1:
1. Russia did not annex Crimea. The Crimean people chose to reject an illegal government and Russia supported and protected them. Remember there was a referendum.

2. Agreed, Zelensky came in after the donbas war started but what has he done to improve the lot of the donbas people and protect them from the Nazi Azov etremists harassing them? He had a chance to negotiate with both the west and Russia for security guarantees but decided to pick Russia as enemy by allowing western countries to continue to build military installations in his country. Then, the issue of NATO which is a military organisation and not economic like EU. Both Finland and Sweden are in EU and not NATO, ukraine could stay neutral like that.

3. The OSCE has been exposed already as a bias party in this conflict. There are videos of weapons been wrapped in OSCE logos.

4. You said Russia gave arms to opposition figures in Ukraine. Is that not what US has done in Syria, Libya and several other places? If you accept that US is the most influential country in the world and it's ideologues are right then are they not the people we should emulate? Are you saying we should just follow what they say and not what they do? The height of hypocrisy!

5. If anything good will come out of this war it is the realization that the current world system is untenable and needs to be reviewed. UN should stop being controlled by five countries an veto should be removed. More voices should be given to developing countries who make the bulk of world population. Only then can we even start talking of international law.

[ quote author=KillerCrocodile post=112712442]

You have shifted ground again....

You came up with the comparison of Putin with Angela Merkel and I asked you simple questions, instead of answering them,

You have shifted to Zelensky.

Ok less go there....

Zelensky was Democratically elected to protect the Territorial Integrity and Borders of Ukraine as recognized by the United Nations.

President Zelensky came to power on May 20, 2019. The War and destruction in the Donbas region has been raging since 2014. He came to office as a War time President.

He came to office and vowed that his first goal as president would be to achieve a lasting peace in war-torn eastern Ukraine.

After his Servant of the people party won parliamentary majority in July 21 of the same year, Zelensky’s mandate allowed him to promote a peace settlement that would see Ukrainian forces and Russian-backed insurgents withdraw from the so-called “contact line” in eastern Ukraine.

Zelensky’s opponents characterized the move as a capitulation that would do nothing but legitimize Russian aggression in the Donets Basin and Crimea, but he retained widespread support from a war-weary public.

So most of the Atrocities you pointed above were done before he came to office..... Please Get your facts correct.

Yes he sent Ukrainian troops to fight with Russian backed insurgents but that was in retaliation to the heinous crimes the Kremlin backed forces were committing in the Donbas region.

I am in no way trying to let the Ukrainian military off the hook because they also committed their fair share of War Crimes against civilians.

But it was not Zelensky that Annexed a part of Russia, it was Putin that Invaded a sovereign nation and annexed Crimea.

Zelensky never gave arms to Russian Opposition figures and asked them to declare a new Republic but Putin did that in Ukraine.

Zelensky never Invaded Russia but Putin's military has been Invading the Ukrainian territory since 2014 as documented by the OSCE.

So who is the Aggressor here, Putin or Zelensky ?

Putin has never recognized Ukraine as a sovereign nation, he sees Ukraine as a part of Russia that must have a Puppet as president to do the will of the Kremlin just like Lukashenko in Belarus.

Why didn't you make mention of Putin's War Crimes and Criminals in the Donbas region since 2014 such as the:

illegal kidnapping of civilians,

Torturing of civilians,

Extrajudicial killing and detention of people.

The majority of them were civilians, among them were men and women.

Why did you fail to mention the fact that Putin and his Invaders since 2014 targeted and prosecuted journalists, human rights defenders, civil activists, art and religious leaders in the Donbas region.

Why did you not mention Igor Strelkov aka Igor Girkin, who is a commander of the Kremlin backed forces in Donbas

Igor Strelkov is a well known War Criminal ... he has committed war crimes in Transnistria, in Chechnya, in Crimea and in Donbas.

He is among four men responsible for the downing of the MH 17 flight that killed almost 300 people according to Dutch persecutors.

You failed to mention the above...

But na Zelensky body you dey get Power.....

You try well well.

Ukraine is a totalitarian state. Read the article below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_detention_centers_of_SBU

Ukraine's atrocities are well detailed, long before the West became totally in bed with them.

Follow the link below:

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf

atmy1:
So how is Iran different from Ukraine that sent over 7000 troops to join the invasion of Iraq. When you are judging Iran's policies you did not distinguish between various regimes because it is national policy. My point here is that both the west and Russia have committed atrocities but the west has done more. The list of invaded countries and dead innocent civilians keep piling up. The war in Ukraine could have been avoided by negotiations. Ukraine cannot join NATO just the same way US could not allow missiles deployed in Cuba. If ukraine wants to be closer to the west let them join EU and then negotiate security guarantees from both the west and Russia.

You talked about the annexation of Crimea. This did not happen until the illegal Euromaidan coup sponsored by the US. Victoria Nuland tape attests to this. The people of Crimea and Donbas rejected the new illegitimate government and voted to leave. Ukraine could have brought them into negotiations rather than harrasing them. I feel Russia'd pain. Here are russian speaking people being maltreated, many of them with families in Russia.

Then, you have the biolabs which US already attests to. What are they doing with biolabs in Ukraine for God's sake?

No matter how you look at it, the western govts and ukraine provoked this war. US has been operating NATO based and training camps in western ukraine for years.

Let me start by referring you to my previous post about the final outcome of this War.

I posted last week or so on another thread my opinion on the final outcome of this War.

Check the Link below for my opinion on how this War would end.

https://www.nairaland.com/7115220/no-eu-fast-track-ukraine-austrian#112620642

A - The War in Iraq

I am Pro West and Pro NATO but it may interest you to Know that I have NEVER supported the war in Iraq.

You can check my previous posts on Nairaland where I called out the War Criminals in Iraq..

I mentioned their names and countries one by one and called them War Criminals

Bush and Blair deceived the international community with false and baseless intelligence and Invaded the Sovereign nation of Iraq.

The Ukrainian president then that sent troops to Iraq did that to Appease the west because they wanted Ascension to NATO..

You would notice that before George Bush left office, In 2008, He made sure that Ukraine and Georgia were given candidate status in NATO.

That was where their Dream to join the Alliance ended. No progress have been made since then because they have not met the criteria to Join the alliance.


B - You want Ukraine to Join EU and Negotiate security guarantee from both sides

Have you forgotten what led to the Protest that made the pro-Russian President to run for his life in 2014 ?

His people wanted him to sign an agreement with the European Union but he refused and insisted that he wanted closer ties with Russia. Then the Euromaidan protest started, hence he fled the country to save his neck.

If he had not fled, he would still have lost the next election because the desire of majority of his people was closer ties with the European Union.

Security Guarantees.....

Putin's Russia cannot be trusted for any security guarantee.

What about the Budapest Memorandum ?

Why have you failed to mention it or you are not aware of it.

Ukraine was briefly a Nuclear Armed nation after Independence but decided to denuclearize...

In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum.

The same Russia that is supposed to secure them is now destroying Ukraine.

If Ukraine was still in possession of those Nukes, Putin would have thought twice before the Invasion.

This is one reason why the US and UK are doggedly committed to the security of Ukraine.

Because the Budapest Memorandum is Sacred to the West and they have shown their readiness to honor it unlike Putin's Russia.

C - The War would have been avoided by Negotiations.

I agree that the War would have been avoided by sincere negotiation. But Putin was playing games with the West.

Can you Imagine Putin trying to Rewrite the Security Architecture of European countries. He was telling NATO to remain only in countries that Joined the Alliance before May
1997.

Putin wanted US and NATO to pullback from the Baltic states, something he knows that can never happen.

From 1997 to 2014, NATO deployed virtually no troops or equipment in new member states.

That changed following Russia’s seizure of Crimea.

NATO now deploys, on a rotating basis, relatively small multinational battlegroups in the Baltic states and Poland.

It is difficult to see NATO agreeing to withdraw them absent a significant change in Russia’s military posture.

Putin was never serious in his Negotiation attempts because he had made up his mind to Invade Ukraine.

Those Pre-Invasion Negotiations was just a pretext for Putin to Invade Ukraine.

The Pre-Invasion Russia- NATO draft treaty presented by the Russian foreign ministry was filled with bogus demands that even Putin know that the West would never agree to..

D - Biology Laboratories in Ukraine

So you still believe this Hogwash........

I know you are smarter than this.

The Russian Balderdash about Biolabs in Ukraine have been Independently DEBUNKED.

It was all a Russian Propaganda and a Pretext in their attempt to use Chemical weapons in Ukraine.

If you like check the links below and believe what you want.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/02/25/fact-check-claim-us-biolabs-ukraine-disinformation/6937923001/

https://voxukraine.org/en/fake-victoria-nuland-admitted-that-us-has-biolabs-in-ukraine/

https://www.bbc.com/news/60711705.amp

The Russian Propaganda machine have no evidence to back up their claim. If they did, you would still be hearing them sounding the alarm.

E - Crimea Annexation

You said Russia did not Annex Crimea ?

Then who Annexed it after a sham referendum ?

Guess what....

They are about to Annex Kherson and are already planning another fake referendum.

The Pro- Russian leaders there are now calling on Moscow to Annex Kherson.

That is why I referred you to my previous post about the eventual outcome of this War.

F - You said Zelensky did nothing to bring peace to the Donbas region

I encourage you once again to get your facts right...

President Zelensky on Oct. 1 2019, announced that he had signed the Steinmeier Formula, a road map to ending the war with Russian-backed separatists in the eastern part of his country.

The process, which was overseen by Germany and France, calls for local elections in occupied parts of the Donbass region and its recognition as a special autonomous region.

Immediately after the announcement, Opposition parties started protest in Kyiv.

The Road map to peace did not work because Zelensky never had a Super majority in parliament in other to implement the Scheme....

Not because he never tried to bring peace to the Donbas region.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/11/zelensky-pushes-peace-deal-ukraine-war-russia-donbass-steinmeier-formula/

G - OSCE and partiality

I laugh...

The same way the United Nations, Red Cross and other organizations have been accused of being partial in Somalia, Yemen and other War torn regions.

Houthi rebels in Yemen also claimed some time ago that they found a UN aid truck filled with ammunitions meant for their opponents.

H - You are Calling for a Review of the Current world system.

Well, I support your call to action but I also believe it is too late.

For decades nations have been calling for this review and nothing happened.

The world would remain West versus East..

Democracy versus Authoritarianism.

The P5 of the United Nations security council are not ready to relinquish their hold on the world.

A. You are right about the outcome of the war but then, you keep falling into the same mainstream division of democratic and authoritarianism. US, the greatest democratic nation in the world has acted in the most authoritarian manner several times. It built an illegal detention centre Guantanamo bay in a sovereign country CUBA. While Russia and China may not be seen as democratic in your eyes, they have the rule of law and most of the things they do still follow their own constitution.

B. President Victor Yanukovic is from the east and is likely to lean more towards policies that favour his people in a divided Ukraine. However, the unpopularity of his decision could have been tested at the polls if his opponents were so confident he was unpopular. You keep saying Putin cannot be trusted but you have US with numerous cases of failure to guarantee promises. While there is no formal accord, documentary evidence exists that NATO had promised to limit eastward expansion during the reunification of Germany. Moreover modern history is littered with fake security guarantees that later put supposed US allies in danger; e.g the Kurds in Northern Syria(They helped fight ISIS but Trump sold them out to the Turks), Pakistan and the Taliban(They helped US fight the taliban in Afghanistan then US disappeared, exposing them to attacks from taliban).I pose the question to you, who is more trustworthy between Russia and the US if you want security guarantee? Also, Finland and Sweden have not been attacked by Russia since as they didn't join NATO.

The Budapest memorandum has been override by Russia's intervention in Donbas and Crimea driven primarily by humanitarian needs as there is documented evidence that Ukraine has harrased the Donbas people. Besides, Crimea was not originally part of Ukraine. Remember the country that did the same thing? US. They bombed Serbia on humanitarian grounds to help ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, a Serbian territory, forgetting the UN article on sovereign country. Forget it bro, US has messed up and they set the precedence for all this rubbish.

C. The overthrow of an elected pro Russian president precedes the annexation of Crimea. If US can do it in serbia, russia can do it in Ukraine, except you believe some countries are more equal than others.


D. You want to debunk an accusation against the west and you are quoting western press. I am a PR specialist and understand the power of excellent PR. Russia has already submitted documents supporting the existence of US biolabs in Ukraine at the UN. Even american officials have admitted it. Please check out the link below.

https://youtube.com/shorts/PJoNj8Yd32Q?feature=share

KillerCrocodile:
Let me start by referring you to my previous post about the final outcome of this War.

I posted last week or so on another thread my opinion on the final outcome of this War.

Check the Link below for my opinion on how this War would end.

https://www.nairaland.com/7115220/no-eu-fast-track-ukraine-austrian#112620642

A - The War in Iraq

I am Pro West and Pro NATO but it may interest you to Know that I have NEVER supported the war in Iraq.

You can check my previous posts on Nairaland where I called out the War Criminals in Iraq..

I mentioned their names and countries one by one and called them War Criminals

Bush and Blair deceived the international community with false and baseless intelligence and Invaded the Sovereign nation of Iraq.

The Ukrainian president then that sent troops to Iraq did that to Appease the west because they wanted Ascension to NATO..

You would notice that before George Bush left office, In 2008, He made sure that Ukraine and Georgia were given candidate status in NATO.

That was where their Dream to join the Alliance ended. No progress have been made since then because they have not met the criteria to Join the alliance.


B - You want Ukraine to Join EU and Negotiate security guarantee from both sides

Have you forgotten what led to the Protest that made the pro-Russian President to run for his life in 2014 ?

His people wanted him to sign an agreement with the European Union but he refused and insisted that he wanted closer ties with Russia. Then the Euromaidan protest started, hence he fled the country to save his neck.

If he had not fled, he would still have lost the next election because the desire of majority of his people was closer ties with the European Union.

Security Guarantees.....

Putin's Russia cannot be trusted for any security guarantee.

What about the Budapest Memorandum ?

Why have you failed to mention it or you are not aware of it.

Ukraine was briefly a Nuclear Armed nation after Independence but decided to denuclearize...

In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum.

The same Russia that is supposed to secure them is now destroying Ukraine.

If Ukraine was still in possession of those Nukes, Putin would have thought twice before the Invasion.

This is one reason why the US and UK are doggedly committed to the security of Ukraine.

Because the Budapest Memorandum is Sacred to the West and they have shown their readiness to honor it unlike Putin's Russia.

C - The War would have been avoided by Negotiations.

I agree that the War would have been avoided by sincere negotiation. But Putin was playing games with the West.

Can you Imagine Putin trying to Rewrite the Security Architecture of European countries. He was telling NATO to remain only in countries that Joined the Alliance before May
1997.

Putin wanted US and NATO to pullback from the Baltic states, something he knows that can never happen.

From 1997 to 2014, NATO deployed virtually no troops or equipment in new member states.

That changed following Russia’s seizure of Crimea.

NATO now deploys, on a rotating basis, relatively small multinational battlegroups in the Baltic states and Poland.

It is difficult to see NATO agreeing to withdraw them absent a significant change in Russia’s military posture.

Putin was never serious in his Negotiation attempts because he had made up his mind to Invade Ukraine.

Those Pre-Invasion Negotiations was just a pretext for Putin to Invade Ukraine.

The Pre-Invasion Russia- NATO draft treaty presented by the Russian foreign ministry was filled with bogus demands that even Putin know that the West would never agree to..

D - Biology Laboratories in Ukraine

So you still believe this Hogwash........

I know you are smarter than this.

The Russian Balderdash about Biolabs in Ukraine have been Independently DEBUNKED.

It was all a Russian Propaganda and a Pretext in their attempt to use Chemical weapons in Ukraine.

If you like check the links below and believe what you want.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/02/25/fact-check-claim-us-biolabs-ukraine-disinformation/6937923001/

https://voxukraine.org/en/fake-victoria-nuland-admitted-that-us-has-biolabs-in-ukraine/

https://www.bbc.com/news/60711705.amp

The Russian Propaganda machine have no evidence to back up their claim. If they did, you would still be hearing them sounding the alarm.

E - Crimea Annexation

You said Russia did not Annex Crimea ?

Then who Annexed it after a sham referendum ?

Guess what....

They are about to Annex Kherson and are already planning another fake referendum.

The Pro- Russian leaders there are now calling on Moscow to Annex Kherson.

That is why I referred you to my previous post about the eventual outcome of this War.

F - You said Zelensky did nothing to bring peace to the Donbas region

I encourage you once again to get your facts right...

President Zelensky on Oct. 1 2019, announced that he had signed the Steinmeier Formula, a road map to ending the war with Russian-backed separatists in the eastern part of his country.

The process, which was overseen by Germany and France, calls for local elections in occupied parts of the Donbass region and its recognition as a special autonomous region.

Immediately after the announcement, Opposition parties started protest in Kyiv.

The Road map to peace did not work because Zelensky never had a Super majority in parliament in other to implement the Scheme....

Not because he never tried to bring peace to the Donbas region.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/11/zelensky-pushes-peace-deal-ukraine-war-russia-donbass-steinmeier-formula/

G - OSCE and partiality

I laugh...

The same way the United Nations, Red Cross and other organizations have been accused of being partial in Somalia, Yemen and other War torn regions.

Houthi rebels in Yemen also claimed some time ago that they found a UN aid truck filled with ammunitions meant for their opponents.

H - You are Calling for a Review of the Current world system.

Well, I support your call to action but I also believe it is too late.

For decades nations have been calling for this review and nothing happened.

The world would remain West versus East..

Democracy versus Authoritarianism.

The P5 of the United Nations security council are not ready to relinquish their hold on the world.

atmy1:
A. You are right about the outcome of the war but then, you keep falling into the same mainstream division of democratic and authoritarianism. US, the greatest democratic nation in the world has acted in the most authoritarian manner several times. It built an illegal detention centre Guantanamo bay in a sovereign country CUBA. While Russia and China may not be seen as democratic in your eyes, they have the rule of law and most of the things they do still follow their own constitution.

B. President Victor Yanukovic is from the east and is likely to lean more towards policies that favour his people in a divided Ukraine. However, the unpopularity of his decision could have been tested at the polls if his opponents were so confident he was unpopular. You keep saying Putin cannot be trusted but you have US with numerous cases of failure to guarantee promises. While there is no formal accord, documentary evidence exists that NATO had promised to limit eastward expansion during the reunification of Germany. Moreover modern history is littered with fake security guarantees that later put supposed US allies in danger; e.g the Kurds in Northern Syria(They helped fight ISIS but Trump sold them out to the Turks), Pakistan and the Taliban(They helped US fight the taliban in Afghanistan then US disappeared, exposing them to attacks from taliban).I pose the question to you, who is more trustworthy between Russia and the US if you want security guarantee? Also, Finland and Sweden have not been attacked by Russia since as they didn't join NATO.

The Budapest memorandum has been override by Russia's intervention in Donbas and Crimea driven primarily by humanitarian needs as there is documented evidence that Ukraine has harrased the Donbas people. Besides, Crimea was not originally part of Ukraine. Remember the country that did the same thing? US. They bombed Serbia on humanitarian grounds to help ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, a Serbian territory, forgetting the UN article on sovereign country. Forget it bro, US has messed up and they set the precedence for all this rubbish.

C. The overthrow of an elected pro Russian president precedes the annexation of Crimea. If US can do it in serbia, russia can do it in Ukraine, except you believe some countries are more equal than others.


D. You want to debunk an accusation against the west and you are quoting western press. I am a PR specialist and understand the power of excellent PR. Russia has already submitted documents supporting the existence of US biolabs in Ukraine at the UN. Even american officials have admitted it. Please check out the link below.

https://youtube.com/shorts/PJoNj8Yd32Q?feature=share

# - Let me clear something here about my stand when it comes to Democratic and Authoritarian Governments...

I don't consider every leader elected in a supposed Democratic nation as being a Democratic leader................ No I don't

For Example :

I don't consider Donald Trump as a Democratic leader. He is an Authoritarian leader. This my stance has caused lengthy debate between me and my fellow Pro West fans here in Nairaland.

I have on several occasions called out George Bush and Tony Blair for their War crimes in Iraq. Their style of leadership was not democratic for me. They may have started in the Democratic lane, but they entered the Authoritarian lane in a bid to uphold democratic values.

Which leads me to my next point....

The fact that a nation is Democratic does not mean that they given up their rights to defend themselves when attacked.

In the process of defending themselves or their allies, that is where you see most Democratic states behaving like Authoritarian states.

There are rules of engagement in every war or conflicts and I can say boldly that the West have not truly followed those rules of engagement.

I say it the way it is..... I don't support rubbish


If we say we are practicing Democracy then we must follow speech with actions.

There is the story of a German citizen of middle eastern roots that was wronglyfully arrested and detained for more than a year by the CIA.

After this man was finally released, could you believe that the was not even compensated financially ?

No Apologies was issued...

He took his case to the US and lost in the court because his case was deemed a threat to national security.

I saw that and I shook my head and said this is wickedness.

An American citizen would at least receive an apology from other countries if he was treated this way.

This is just one case.... What about Racism in democratic states..... No need to even go there.

That is why I said Democracy is not perfect. But democratic values are essential in this wicked world

It must constantly be reviewed, so that Democratic values meant to protect the little guy is not abused or ignored.

But I prefer Democracy to Authoritarianism because Democratic values is the direct opposite of Authoritarian actions.

If not for democratic values, the world would have been more wicked and dangerous today. It is Democratic values that is caging some leaders from going rogue, from being wicked.

When they remember that they swore an oath to uphold democratic values, the get their act together and dont misbehave.

# - Putin cannot be trusted with any nations security.

Putin is a Liar....... And you know it.

Before the Invasion, he lied to world leaders that he is not planning an Invasion. Today the rest his history.

Putin would say something to visiting world leaders and do the opposite later. You mentioned Sweden and Finland.

They are about to apply for NATO membership because they can clearly see that they can't trust their neighbor, Russia.

Today, Sweden signed a defense pact with the UK because of the miscalculation of one man...... Putin

#- The Budapest Memorandum is no longer valid because of what is happening in the Donbas region ?

Did I hear you correctly ?

When they signed the Memorandum, did Russia commit to secure the lives of only the Russian speaking people and their land or they committed to secure the whole of Ukraine ?

The latter is the Answer.

Russia as big brother to Ukraine has failed to do what is expected...... You can blame the west for that, no problem..... They are used to the blame game.

# - When the US Invaded Serbia, which part of the nation did they Annex ?

If you say Russia went to the Donbas region because they learnt it from the United States action in Serbia, then why the Annexation and land grabbing to increase the size of Russia ?

Putin has a sinister motive. He is longing to see the restoration of the old Soviet Union. If he is not stopped in Ukraine, he would enter other European nations.

This is the Truth that the Putin fan club don't want to admit

# - I knew you wouldn't believe those articles about the Russian Biolabs Propaganda.

We are waiting for final outcome at the UN.

But I will like to point out that if the United States want to produce Bio weapons against Russia, they would rather do it in Poland or Germany who are NATO members and not in Ukraine.

The United States and Ukraine are not that close, when you compare their relationship with Germany or Poland.

Putin's aggression has made the US and Ukraine look so close

Something as sensitive as Bio weapons would not be staged in a Non-Nato country.

The west has debunked the claims of a Bio lab, the East says it is true...

So let everyone believe what they want to believe..... Life goes on.

Okay, I agree with your point about democratic values being the best but democracy itself is an ideology that even the countries that practiced it have corrupted, and it should not be imposed on any body the way US is doing. Look at the result of all the democratic impositions of the west around the world, it is likened to forcing people to become christians. Plus, if left with two evil choices; religious extremism and authoritarianism, most people will prefer the latter. You cannot start talking about human rights in a country where people are not safe and that is what the west often forgets. The western countries did not evolve in one day, they grew from being more brutal into being rich and cultured but do not want other countries to grow at their own pace too. They developed by stealing people's territories, slavery and pollution yet do not want developing countries to even do a third of the things they did to become rich. The hypocrisy is sickening, that's my point and the West will eventually crumble with their democracy if they don't fix it. Countries like China and Russia who remain powerful outside the west provide alternatives in a world that would have become unipolar and exist to check the excesses of the west.

KillerCrocodile:
# - Let me clear something here about my stand when it comes to Democratic and Authoritarian Governments...

I don't consider every leader elected in a supposed Democratic nation as being a Democratic leader................ No I don't

For Example :

I don't consider Donald Trump as a Democratic leader. He is an Authoritarian leader. This my stance has caused lengthy debate between me and my fellow Pro West fans here in Nairaland.

I have on several occasions called out George Bush and Tony Blair for their War crimes in Iraq. Their style of leadership was not democratic for me. They may have started in the Democratic lane, but they entered the Authoritarian lane in a bid to uphold democratic values.

Which leads me to my next point....

The fact that a nation is Democratic does not mean that they given up their rights to defend themselves when attacked.

In the process of defending themselves or their allies, that is where you see most Democratic states behaving like Authoritarian states.

There are rules of engagement in every war or conflicts and I can say boldly that the West have not truly followed those rules of engagement.

I say it the way it is..... I don't support rubbish


If we say we are practicing Democracy then we must follow speech with actions.

There is the story of a German citizen of middle eastern roots that was wronglyfully arrested and detained for more than a year by the CIA.

After this man was finally released, could you believe that the was not even compensated financially ?

No Apologies was issued...

He took his case to the US and lost in the court because his case was deemed a threat to national security.

I saw that and I shook my head and said this is wickedness.

An American citizen would at least receive an apology from other countries if he was treated this way.

This is just one case.... What about Racism in democratic states..... No need to even go there.

That is why I said Democracy is not perfect. But democratic values are essential in this wicked world

It must constantly be reviewed, so that Democratic values meant to protect the little guy is not abused or ignored.

But I prefer Democracy to Authoritarianism because Democratic values is the direct opposite of Authoritarian actions.

If not for democratic values, the world would have been more wicked and dangerous today. It is Democratic values that is caging some leaders from going rogue, from being wicked.

When they remember that they swore an oath to uphold democratic values, the get their act together and dont misbehave.

# - Putin cannot be trusted with any nations security.

Putin is a Liar....... And you know it.

Before the Invasion, he lied to world leaders that he is not planning an Invasion. Today the rest his history.

Putin would say something to visiting world leaders and do the opposite later. You mentioned Sweden and Finland.

They are about to apply for NATO membership because they can clearly see that they can't trust their neighbor, Russia.

Today, Sweden signed a defense pact with the UK because of the miscalculation of one man...... Putin

#- The Budapest Memorandum is no longer valid because of what is happening in the Donbas region ?

Did I hear you correctly ?

When they signed the Memorandum, did Russia commit to secure the lives of only the Russian speaking people and their land or they committed to secure the whole of Ukraine ?

The latter is the Answer.

Russia as big brother to Ukraine has failed to do what is expected...... You can blame the west for that, no problem..... They are used to the blame game.

# - When the US Invaded Serbia, which part of the nation did they Annex ?

If you say Russia went to the Donbas region because they learnt it from the United States action in Serbia, then why the Annexation and land grabbing to increase the size of Russia ?

Putin has a sinister motive. He is longing to see the restoration of the old Soviet Union. If he is not stopped in Ukraine, he would enter other European nations.

This is the Truth that the Putin fan club don't want to admit

# - I knew you wouldn't believe those articles about the Russian Biolabs Propaganda.

We are waiting for final outcome at the UN.

But I will like to point out that if the United States want to produce Bio weapons against Russia, they would rather do it in Poland or Germany who are NATO members and not in Ukraine.

The United States and Ukraine are not that close, when you compare their relationship with Germany or Poland.

Putin's aggression has made the US and Ukraine look so close

Something as sensitive as Bio weapons would not be staged in a Non-Nato country.

The west has debunked the claims of a Bio lab, the East says it is true...

So let everyone believe what they want to believe..... Life goes on.

atmy1:
Okay, I agree with your point about democratic values being the best but democracy itself is an ideology that even the countries that practiced it have corrupted, and it should not be imposed on any body the way US is doing. Look at the result of all the democratic impositions of the west around the world, it is likened to forcing people to become christians. Plus, if left with two evil choices; religious extremism and authoritarianism, most people will prefer the latter. You cannot start talking about human rights in a country where people are not safe and that is what the west often forgets. The western countries did not evolve in one day, they grew from being more brutal into being rich and cultured but do not want other countries to grow at their own pace too. They developed by stealing people's territories, slavery and pollution yet do not want developing countries to even do a third of the things they did to become rich. The hypocrisy is sickening, that's my point and the West will eventually crumble with their democracy if they don't fix it. Countries like China and Russia who remain powerful outside the west provide alternatives in a world that would have become unipolar and exist to check the excesses of the west.

Very correct..

Authoritarianism is in turn better than Religious Extremism.

leofab:
why didn’t the Russians allow the Germans to overrun them? Why are they celebrating the victory day? No price is too big to pay for freedom and usa has always been there for those fighting for their freedom.. they did it for Russia and will do it for ukraine..

Go and read your history books well or watch YouTube documentaries for godsake....

The soviet army resisted the Germans all by themselves all the way down to Berlin and hoited the Red flag on Berlin long before the Americans even arrived. USA didn't do sh*t. Stop praising them for what they didn't do. Germany was defeated easily because of the damage the Soviets made to their Eastern fronts and not the American fronts.
Watch 'Stalingrad to open ur mind.

Elimon:
Go and read your history books well or watch YouTube documentaries for godsake....

The soviet army resisted the Germans all by themselves all the way down to Berlin and hoited the Red flag on Berlin long before the Americans even arrived. USA didn't do sh*t. Stop praising them for what they didn't do. Germany was defeated easily because of the damage the Soviets made to their Eastern fronts and not the American fronts.
Watch 'Stalingrad to open ur mind.

it took Russia 60 yrs to pay back the lend lease given to them by the usa.. read up.

Elimon:
Go and read your history books well or watch YouTube documentaries for godsake....

The soviet army resisted the Germans all by themselves all the way down to Berlin and hoited the Red flag on Berlin long before the Americans even arrived. USA didn't do sh*t. Stop praising them for what they didn't do. Germany was defeated easily because of the damage the Soviets made to their Eastern fronts and not the American fronts.
Watch 'Stalingrad to open ur mind.

it took Russia 60 yrs to pay back the lend lease given to them by the usa.. read up.

Excerpts ‘the U.S. deliveries to the USSR through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386 of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans); 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras) and 1.75 million tons ‘ continue reading

leofab:
it took Russia 60 yrs to pay back the lend lease given to them by the usa.. read up.

Excerpts ‘the U.S. deliveries to the USSR through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386 of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans); 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras) and 1.75 million tons ‘ continue reading

wow, this negress queen is so obssessed with russia. no wonder this thing hates china too.

negress queen ,why not ask america pay back the lease of alaska to russia ?

when will you nigeria pay back the debt to china loan ? you take the train free from our chinese 's help .

hey, your head needs this fake hair .

igbesachick:
wow, this negress queen is so obssessed with russia. no wonder this thing hates china too.

negress queen ,why not ask america pay back the lease of alaska to russia ?

when will you nigeria pay back the debt to china loan ? you take the train free from our chinese 's help .

hey, your head needs this fake hair .

we ain’t paying back any loan for some fraudulent 18th century iron boxes called trained.. communists Chinese officials came to install dismantled and abandoned British colonial era rail for Nigerians and expect them to pay… Africa is not a dumping group for old British colonial infrastructures…

leofab:
we ain’t paying back any loan for some fraudulent 18th century iron boxes called trained.. communists Chinese officials came to install dismantled and abandoned British colonial era rail for Nigerians and expect them to pay… Africa is not a dumping group for old British colonial infrastructures…

chinese installed british abandoned trains ? dear Negress queen with IQ 75

you want bullet train ? go ask your caucasian masters.

typical N word. lazy bones, extending hands for alms for free. and you even expect the alms be most expensive items. you are a fastidious beggar.

and, you MUST pay back the debt. otherwise we will send our carrier to destroy your oil fields and literally enslave you . you think america will fight china for you N word ? they will not even fight for white ukraine.