₦airaland Forum

Kobojunkie:
Slavery, as depicted in the Law of Moses was given as a part of the Constitution of the Nation of Israel in the Land of Canaan, a Nation God formed of the people of Isreal whom He has previously rescued from the land of Egypt.

So he rescued them from slavery only to tell them to take slaves? alright.....

budaatum:
No hope, waiting for people to "show you" is what made you rightly abandon the religion in the first place, so why would you expect citing is what might make you comprehend? It is not people who can cite that can "show you" but you using your own heart and soul and mind to ask and knock and seek for understanding for and by yourself so you may see for yourself which I hope you are not saying bye to. Still, even if you are, others aren't, so I'll help you.

All the plagues God mounted on the Egyptians for enslaving the Israelites is condemnation. You would not claim you were being blessed if those plagues were inflicted on you for your behaviour, and would be wise to consider that behaviour condemned.

Also, Jesus saying, "Get thee behind me satan" can be considered as condemnation against slavery. If Jesus had bowed to Satan on the mountain he would have been Satan's slave which most would not consider a good thing.

And ignorant Adam and Eve nakedly tending a tiny proxy garden is slavery too considering the lofty task given to the humans created before them and in the image (in power too) of the God we read created them.

All these epistle and the question is still unanswered.... must be frustrating flipping Bible page to page and not seeing anything condemning it. I know that feeling

hopefulLandlord:
So he rescued them from slavery only to tell them to take slaves? alright.....

Did God ever state that the Nation of Egypt had no right to hold slaves?

I really don't understand your question, to begin with.

Kobojunkie:
Did God ever state that the Nation of Egypt had no right to hold slaves?

I really don't understand your question, to begin with.

The question is where is slavery condemned in the Bible....

hopefulLandlord:
The question is where is slavery condemned in the Bible....

Well, it isn't really condemned, and for good reason. Instead, individuals, those who believe in Jesus Christ, are called to a different Law which mandates they exist as equals with others.

hopefulLandlord:
All these epistle and the question is still unanswered.... must be frustrating flipping Bible page to page and not seeing anything condemning it. I know that feeling

I don't know the feeling you know so I can't be frustrated like you must be.

If the Bible did not condemn slavery enough for me I am very willing to write it in there for myself. Thankfully, I would not be the first

Kobojunkie:
Well, it isn't really condemned,

okay then

They are unable to answer that simple question because it is a thing of shame that their so called 'loving god' is a patron of slavery , and the irony of accusing the enlightened of lacking intelligence

ReacherSaidNoth:
They are unable to answer that simple question because it is a thing of shame that their so called 'loving god' [s]is a patron of slavery , and the irony of accusing the enlightened of lacking intelligence [/s]

I beg your pardon but I am not talking about some imaginary patron loving god but about what some people wrote in the physical Bible that any of us can pick up and read, and anyone who reads it from cover to cover would not only see lots of condemnations of slavery but more important how to resist slavery too.

In fact the entire book is about that one single purpose of do not allow yourself to be enslaved, but unfortunately many of you seem to think the doctrine of the enslaved that you see around you is what the book is all about instead of reading it with your own hearts and souls and minds so you may find understanding for yourselves.

Perhaps look at the book as not for the slavemasters hence not exactly stating 'thou shalt not enslave', since the slavemasters wouldn't listen anyway, but for the enslaved so they may outwit the slavemasters and become free, and you might see the below as a lesson on how to resist being enslaved. You might even consider it might have been written in code so the slavemasters wouldn't understand though I admit I am stretching you a bit too far with that.

budaatum:
In fact the entire book is about that one single purpose of do not allow yourself to be enslaved,.

You often twist yourself in knots over nonsense. Your position is obviously indefensible no matter what interpretation you give to the Bible to justify it. The Bible and priestcraft remain wonderful tools of enslavement, colonization, and manipulation. In the name of their “lord and master”, Jesus.


Ephesians 6:
5. Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart,just as you would obey Christ.

6. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ,doing the will of God from your heart.

Although addressed to some people in Ephesus, the above would have been a hit in antebellum America (and still a hit amongst some Christian whites). The enslaved would have responded with verses about Moses and the exodus, then the slavers would have responded with verses of the Israelites and their own slaves.
Neither would have produced any verses condemning slavery because the people who wrote the stories had no problem with slavery and thought it moral.

KnownUnknown:
You twist yourself in knots often over nonsense. Your position is obviously indefensible no matter what interpretation you give to the Bible to justify your position. The Bible and priestcraft remain wonderful tools of enslavement, colonization, and manipulation. I’m the name of their “lord and master”, Jesus.

Ephesians 6:
5. Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart,just as you would obey Christ.

6. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ,doing the will of God from your heart.

Although addressed to some people in Ephesus, the above would have been a hit in antebellum America.

Note that the slaves of the Egyptians were not told to "obey your earthly masters", and in fact are written to have had their God fighting against their masters for them which was a hit in antebellum America, you might find, even if obey your master was the preferred reading of the masters.

That aside, I do not think you are claiming that The Bible is a "wonderful tools of enslavement, colonization, and manipulation" even if the priesthood may have used it to enslave, colonize and manipulate. One, I think, should not determine toolability by the ineptitude of the craft persons wielding it. I could after all choose to enslave with the Garden of Eden but see how I am pointing it out as a tool of emancipation, or have I twisted it too far from your established understanding of the narrative? Basically, can it not be inferred to mean what I say it means, at least to me? (O how I wish we could move on to implications).

It is a very complex book written in antiquity with various authors writing over many centuries and from different perspectives so it is not all to be and has not been looked at nor seen from one single perspective. The Temptation of Christ shows two contradictory perspectives of the same text, and Jesus' constant battles with the priesthood are about perspective too, and by golly, different books even contradict each other a la Paul's faith versus James' work, so twisting is par for the course I'd say.

What we are discussing is not nonsense. You would not invest your time discussing it if it were nonsense.

KnownUnknown:
The enslaved would have responded with verses about Moses and the exodus, then the slavers would have responded with verses of the Israelites and their own slaves.
Neither would have produced any verses condemning slavery because the people who wrote the stories had no problem with slavery and thought it moral.

And there's the perspective. Note that we are the readers of the stories the people wrote and they don't tell us what what they wrote means to free minded us now. We are after all no more children whom they tell what to do but responsible adults who can think and reason for ourselves.

TMTR:
The last time I checked, the people that brought Christianity to Africa were responsible for the slave trade, killed a lot of leaders who opposed them, raped our resources and women but I am supposed to be the bad one without morals for not believing in their religion

Please make it make sense

+++

Morals, while objectively commendable and encouraged, are simply not good enough to reconcile a person back to GOD since the fall and physical + spiritual demise of mankind in Genesis! We need the Savior, the CHRIST, the Lord YESHUA! (Acts 4:12). This is the truth!

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." - Isaiah 64:6

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 6:23

budaatum:
Note that the slaves of the Egyptians were not told to "obey your earthly masters", and in fact are written to have had their God fighting against their masters for them which was a hit in antebellum America, you might find, even if obey your master was the preferred reading of the masters.

That aside, I do not think you are claiming that The Bible is a "wonderful tools of enslavement, colonization, and manipulation" even if the priesthood may have used it to enslave, colonize and manipulate. One, I think, should not determine toolability by the ineptitude of the craft persons wielding it. I could after all choose to enslave with the Garden of Eden but see how I am pointing it out as a tool of emancipation, or have I twisted it too far from your established understanding of the narrative? Basically, can it not be inferred to mean what I say it means, at least to me? (O how I wish we could move on to implications).

It is a very complex book written in antiquity with various authors writing over many centuries and from different perspectives so it is not all to be and has not been looked at nor seen from one single perspective. The Temptation of Christ shows two contradictory perspectives of the same text, and Jesus' constant battles with the priesthood are about perspective too, and by golly, different books even contradict each other a la Paul's faith versus James' work, so twisting is par for the course I'd say.

What we are discussing is not nonsense. You would not invest your time discussing it if it were nonsense.

You just drone on and on and on……….
The Bible is a wonderful tool of enslavement, colonization, and manipulation. That is exactly what I mean and history and contemporary times bear witness.

Nonsense is not what we are discussing but your particular position. The Bible supports slavery explicitly and implicitly no matter your interpretation of Genesis Chapter 3, which, by the way, has nothing to do with slavery.

budaatum:
And there's the perspective. Note that we are the readers of the stories the people wrote and they don't tell us what what they wrote means to free minded us now. We are after all no more children whom they tell what to do but responsible adults who can think and reason for ourselves.

And it’s clear by what they wrote that they had no problems with slavery and thought it moral. Note Ephesians Chapter 6 as posted for a clear example.

KnownUnknown:
And it’s clear by what they wrote that they had no problems with slavery and thought it moral. Note Ephesians Chapter 6 as posted for a clear example.

The God of Israel is the one and only true God he decided to leave mankind so they can learn the hard way since our first parents chose to liberate themselves from under his guidance!

Slavery came as a result of what Adam and Eve wanted to become:

"in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad" Genesis 3:5

Adam and Eve are already like Gods to lesser creatures so for their godship to be complete generations of mankind must worship not God but Adam and Eve as we will all become their slaves!

Sadly majority of mankind followed the footsteps of the first human pair so God wants us to learn from experience. But among His own worshipers he has given them a law to show his displeasure regarding slavery:

“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he will serve as a slave for six years, but in the seventh year, he will be set free without paying anything" Exodus 21:2

Back then the descendants of Abraham are known as (Hebrews) so if an Israelite should use his money to buy a slave and the slave happens to be Hebrew then he must serve his owner for six years for the owner to get back his money with which he bought his brother!

Throughout the world of that time there's no nation with such thought except the Israelites because their God detests the idea of slavery.
So the Israelites realized that if they want to buy a slave they mustn't buy a Hebrew unless they have the intention of setting him free!

Again in all other nations slaves could be killed at will since they're like properties to their owners but that's not the case in Israel! Exodus 21:12

I really wish you calm down and study God's word (Bible) with God's people (JWs) i'm sure you will appreciate as in LOVE the true God as you do so, then you will know why JWs are the most dedicated worshipers of their God on this planet!

MaxInDHouse:
The God of Israel is the one and only true God he decided to leave mankind so they can learn the hard way since our first parents chose to liberate themselves from under his guidance!

Slavery came as a result of what Adam and Eve wanted to become:

"in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad" Genesis 3:5

Adam and Eve are already like Gods to lesser creatures so for their godship to be complete generations of mankind must worship not God but Adam and Eve as we will all become their slaves!

Sadly majority of mankind followed the footsteps of the first human pair so God wants us to learn from experience. But among His own worshipers he has given them a law to show his displeasure regarding slavery:

“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he will serve as a slave for six years, but in the seventh year, he will be set free without paying anything" Exodus 21:2

Back then the descendants of Abraham are known as (Hebrews) so if an Israelite should use his money to buy a slave and the slave happens to be Hebrew then he must serve his owner for six years for the owner to get back his money with which he bought his brother!

Throughout the world of that time there's no nation with such thought except the Israelites because their God detests the idea of slavery.
So the Israelites realized that if they want to buy a slave they mustn't buy a Hebrew unless they have the intention of setting him free!

Again in all other nations slaves could be killed at will since they're like properties to their owners but that's not the case in Israel! Exodus 21:12

I really wish you calm down and study God's word (Bible) with God's people (JWs) i'm sure you will appreciate as in LOVE the true God as you do so, then you will know why JWs are the most dedicated worshipers of their God on this planet!

I’m not engaging with this because “You’ve got aggression written all over you”. Everything you wrote is nonsense anyway because CHUG CHUG is God. No need to add “only true god” because it’s apparent that CHUG CHUG is The One.

KnownUnknown:
I’m not engaging with this because “You’ve got aggression written all over you”. Everything you wrote is nonsense anyway because CHUG CHUG is God. No need to add “only true god” because it’s apparent that CHUG CHUG is The One.

We're both PREACHING, your comments is to frustrate believers in God so i'm using mine to frustrate your effort.
So never think my comments is to convince you alone but in actual fact it's a two edged sword {Hebrews 4:12} proving how stupid you are while thinking you figured out everything in the Bible then others who truly appreciate facts will read and see your folly!

ReacherSaidNoth:
They are unable to answer that simple question because it is a thing of shame that their so called 'loving god' is a patron of slavery , and the irony of accusing the enlightened of lacking intelligence

Not trying to hold brief for anyone in this but slavery was born of men and not of God. So it is not accurate to claim that God was a patron of slavery. Instead, God allowed men their way while He instead called out to those who would choose Him inspite of it all.

The Old Law of Moses was given as a Constitution designed for a nation of men who were a part of this world, a world in which every nation has some sort of slavery system as a part of it's past. This was so even at the time Israel was created, so I don't understand what the hullabaloo is about slavery being included in what is the Constitution of the Nation of Israel from it's beginning.

And before you attempt to jump to assert that Israel was God's.... let me add that Israel was constituted by God as a Nation that is fully part of this world and so had to compete with other nations in every way. God didn't constitute a Holy Nation of Israel and no, the people were not made holy by his choosing of them - Deuteronomy 9 vs 4 - 6 - instead God made a nation of people who He had chosen to mine for Himself those righteous from - the few who would head and Obey His very commandments.

ReacherSaidNoth:
They are unable to answer that simple question because it is a thing of shame that their so called 'loving god' is a patron of slavery , and the irony of accusing the enlightened of lacking intelligence

It's even worse than that. during the time abolition of slavery was being discussed. majority of the people against the abolition were Christians, Although to be fair many of those in support of abolition were also Christians but here's what differentiated them. the Christians who opposed abolition QUOTED BIBLE VERSES to support their position

check out the famous quotes by Christians in support of slavery during the fight for its abolition

Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts.


the right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.



Now if you check out quotes by abolitionists who were Christians you'd see they don't mention the so-called "holy book" that they claim to live by. interesting, innit?

hopefulLandlord:
It's even worse than that. during the time abolition of slavery was being discussed. majority of the people against the abolition were Christians, Although to be fair many of those in support of abolition were also Christians but here's what differentiated them. the Christians who opposed abolition QUOTED BIBLE VERSES to support their position

check out the famous quotes by Christians in support of slavery during the fight for its abolition

Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts.

Jefferson Davis , President, Confederate States of America

the right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.

Richard Furman , President, South Carolina Baptist Convention

Now if you check out quotes by abolitionists who were Christians you'd see they don't mention the so-called "holy book" that they claim to live by. interesting, innit?

It is quite funny that people who worship a saddistic, bloodthirsty tribal deity are able to make noise about morality. How can a right thinking person be okay with the endorsement of slavery, genocide and the other unmentionables, without switching off their brain?

Indoctrination is a terrible thing.

hopefulLandlord:
It's even worse than that. during the time abolition of slavery was being discussed. majority of the people against the abolition were Christians, Although to be fair many of those in support of abolition were also Christians but here's what differentiated them. the Christians who opposed abolition QUOTED BIBLE VERSES to support their position

check out the famous quotes by Christians in support of slavery during the fight for its abolition

Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts.

Jefferson Davis , President, Confederate States of America

the right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.

Richard Furman , President, South Carolina Baptist Convention

Now if you check out quotes by abolitionists who were Christians you'd see they don't mention the so-called "holy book" that they claim to live by. interesting, innit?

lol.. quotes. none of those pro -slavery folks backed up their position with actual scriptures. They were bad as humans and Christian's, and you know it. You're still very mischievous.

MaxInDHouse:
We're both PREACHING, your comments is to frustrate believers in God so i'm using mine to frustrate your effort.
So never think my comments is to convince you alone but in actual fact it's a two edged sword {Hebrews 4:12} proving how stupid you are while thinking you figured out everything in the Bible then others who truly appreciate facts will read and see your folly!

CHUG CHUG forgives you for calling me stupid.

KnownUnknown:
And it’s clear by what they wrote that they had no problems with slavery and thought it moral. Note Ephesians Chapter 6 as posted for a clear example.

Exodus shows they had serious problems with slavery when it was they who were enslaved. They did not find that moral, the hypocrites one might add. Genesis 3 shows they had no problem enslaving others and adopted slavery as a tool. That same Genesis 3 also shows how one should have problems with slavery and why and how to overcome being a slave. Adam and Eve might have worked in the Garden till they died if not, and their children would have been born into slavery too and their supposed descendants would not today be going to the moon or be sending probes to Mars and Jupiter and the further regions of the universe.

The arrival of Jesus was to save from slavery under the Romans, they thought, except he chose to save them from the greater slavemaster that was their own ignorance and that enslaved them, but trust them to ignorantly go Stockholm syndrome on him. He'd groan if he saw how they now bow to those he condemned for giving stones and serpents instead of the bread of life which is wisdom, a product usually extracted from knowledge.

We are and should not be lemmings who read a book and ignorantly believe it without reading between the lines to understand what we read, and being lemmings is what has stopped us reading more complex 'Bibles' like Adam Smith's An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations for example, or Karl Marx's Das Capital. We just might believe what we read in them without opening our eyes so we may see to apply our own critical faculties, which is a thing the Bible helps one practice so one learns.

KnownUnknown:
You just drone on and on and on……….
The Bible is a wonderful tool of enslavement, colonization, and manipulation. That is exactly what I mean and history and contemporary times bear witness.

You make it sound like you are under some sort of obligation to read my "just drone on and on", which makes me wonder if I am enslaving you with my droning. I am after all using my writing to enslave you, no?

KnownUnknown:
Nonsense is not what we are discussing but your particular position. The Bible supports slavery explicitly and implicitly no matter your interpretation of Genesis Chapter 3, which, by the way, has nothing to do with slavery.

New "particular positions" are usually considered nonsense when first introduced. They said it about Galileo and about Giordan Bruno and about Socrates and even about the Jesus we read about in the Bible, so why should I be bothered you say it about me when I stand in such lofty company?

Genesis 3 precisely supports your theory of the Bible condoning slavery and actually promoting it as a tool, if you are a slavemaster or dumb enough to be an obedient slave, while the slave who prefers freedom would see the same Genesis 3 as a tool of emancipation from slavery.

But please know that I in no way expect you to see what I see nor must you agree with me. Even the slaves in the Garden would claim my particular position is nonsenses, or at least the Adams would, or they might need to start considering worshipping the emancipating serpent instead of the enslaving God.

That's because these clowns think that not having the "fear" of a god means one is automatically evil and lacks the ability to do good.

BRATISLAVA:
Why do atheists always equate theists with not being educated or intelligent?

Yes, when it comes to religion, theists are not intelligent. They're intelligent when it comes to other aspects of life they're good at, but when religion is involved they have to throw logic away and defend the most irrational things.
Telling me humans came from a white woman who also came from a white man's ribs, who also came from dust is very unintelligent, even if you're a scientist.

MaxInDHouse:
For your information nothing concerns me with that book called Bible

Jehovah witness folks have to be one of the most confused people on earth.

kingxsamz:
Yes, when it comes to religion, theists are not intelligent. They're intelligent when it comes to other aspects of life they're good at, but when religion is involved they have to throw logic away and defend the most irrational things.
Telling me humans came from a white woman who also came from a white man's ribs, who also came from dust is very unintelligent, even if you're a scientist.

I am certain you know very well that isn't true at all, but you just want to pretend it so instead.

Dumb atheists asking where slavery is condemned in the Bible.
No wonder the bible said fools say there is no God.



"This is why it's so important to understand scripture in its proper context, as well as the culture back then.

The stealing and selling of human beings like the racial slavery that we know of, was forbidden according to Old Testament law. Exodus 21:16 says, “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.”

In almost every instance, the kind of slavery that was authorized was debt-slavery, where an individual would offer to work for someone for 6 years to pay off a debt. Employer/Employee. It would be like you coming to work for me to pay off all of your debts, in which you'd be treated like family and provided with room & board. If they were mistreated, the masters (employers) were punished.

AS YOU CAN SEE, CLEARLY NOT THE SAME SLAVERY OF MY ANCESTORS. Although slave masters in the 1800s would try to use the Bible to justify racial slavery, common sense would tell you that they didn't know Christ.

They didn't have the Holy Spirit, they didn't "love thy neighbor", and they did everything opposite of what Christ said to do.

But today, many black people who are spiritually lost try to use that slavery narrative as an excuse to not know Jesus. The devil has sold them lies in exchange for their souls." - Desmond Morris

jmoore:
Exodus 21:16 says, “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.”

In almost every instance, the kind of slavery that was authorized was debt-slavery, where an individual would offer to work for someone for 6 years to pay off a debt. Employer/Employee. It would be like you coming to work for me to pay off all of your debts, in which you'd be treated like family and provided with room & board. If they were mistreated, the masters (employers) were punished.

AS YOU CAN SEE, CLEARLY NOT THE SAME SLAVERY OF MY ANCESTORS. Although slave masters in the 1800s would try to use the Bible to justify racial slavery, common sense would tell you that they didn't know Christ.

Exodus 21:20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ,doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

KnownUnknown:
Exodus 21:20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ,doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

Comprehension demands you understand CONTEXT and not just use words.



Debt Slavery as it is described in Israelite law, was a way in which a family could deal with debt. Imagine
that you are an ancient Israelite—the head of a household. You spend all day farming and keeping a small flock of sheep and goats, helped by everyone in
your extended household. What do you do if you have a
bad year, and are unable to feed your family? The answer is that you borrow from someone who has enough surplus grain (or some other commodity) to lend you. Under Israelite law, this loan would be interest-free (Lev 25:35–37), but you still need to pay back.what you borrowed.

But now imagine that you have another bad year,
and so you need to borrow again. Year after year, your debt accumulates, and you have no way to pay it
back. Unless your intention is to default on the loan—effectively stealing from the one who lent to you at no
interest rather than selling his grain—your only option is to repay your debt with your only means available,
the labor of the people in your household.