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The first Tribulation

Revelation 7:9-17
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and WHENCE CAME THEY?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have WASHED THEIR ROBES, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

What can we deduce from this passage?

1. One of the Elders tried to get the attention of John if he can tell who these sets of Saints are and where they came from.

This question will be unnecessary if it is true that we will all pass through the great tribulation. Both the Elder and John would have known that it's the church. But the question asked weakens the argument of those who presume that we will all pass through the great tribulation period.

2. Their identity was revealed. They came out of the great tribulation.

3. The passage said that they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.

The robe represents the garment of righteousness showing that they are saints. It says that they have washed their robes meaning that it was stained. If this represents the entire church at that time, it means that the entire church was filthy or was stained with sin.

This assertion cannot be true because the scripture says that Jesus is coming for a glorious church without spot. So these set of Believers are not the ones Jesus came for. Rather, they are the ones who missed the rapture on account of sin. But they still made it to heaven howbeit through persecution.
It therefore also means that the raptured Saints were already in heaven before this set came. And that was the reason for the surprise. The raptured saints is symbolized by the fourth beast in the book of Revelation. The four beast represents the different dispensation of the church age but it is the fourth set that will witness the rapture. No wonder they were described as the flying eagles.

The book of Revelation is deep mystery that you do not expect to easily see simple use of illustrations that defines truth. You have to study deep to get the rhema out of it. So, don't expect to see a direct evidence that saints were raptured.

If they were not raptured, how did they make heaven? Since the entire church was not represented in the vision of the tribulation saints, there must be a set that must have gone ahead of the tribulation saints.

This persecution ends the church age. It has nothing to do with the Jews. The anti Christ is not yet revealed. Even the mark of the beast is not yet Instituted.

The persecutors are just the wicked leaders of their days. The anti Christ is not part of the persecution of these set of tribulation saints.

Apostle Paul affirmed that God's dealing with the Jews will only resume after the Gentile nations are fully saved. He wrote;

Romans 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And the last set of Gentiles that came into the kingdom are the tribulation Saints seen in Revelation 7.

Before God resumes his dealing with the Jews, he pours out his wrath on the ungodly people who persecuted the saints that went through the great tribulation. And also to take vengeance on all the killings that has been carried out throughout the history of the church.

Second Tribulation Period.

This second one has nothing to do with the present day church because we are already in heaven before it took place. Both the raptured and tribulation saints are already in heaven as was proven above. Unless they came back to die again which is not possible.

Jesus who narrated the events cannot be a bad narrator going front and back. Everything revealed to John are written in chronological order except for chapter 12 which paused the narration to unveil the age long battle between Satan and the kingdom of God.

The anti Christ is revealed in Chapter 13. He is called the first beast with seven heads and ten crowns. The ten crowns represents ten European countries that will form a new world power. Bible scholars calls it the revived Roman Empire even though the composition is not the same as the last one which collapsed. The headquarter will be in Rome.

Another beast is revealed in the same chapter 13. This second beast is the false Christ. He is known as the false Prophet. He will be received by the Jews as the Messiah they have been waiting for. Hence he like a lamb. We know what the lamb signifies. Our Lord Jesus however is the true lamb of God.
He has two horns. The two horns represent Judah and Isreal. He will be accepted by the Jews because of the 7 years peace treaty he was able to sigh with the anit Christ or new world ruler.

But after three and a half years, he will build an image of the first beast. He will place that image in the temple of God as foretold by Daniel. He will force everyone on earth to worship that image. He will institute a mark of the beast and a number you must receive on your forehead or your right hand. Only those who receive this mark will be permitted to buy and sell.

At this point, the Jews will refuse because the law says they should not worship any graven image. And their eyes will be opened for the first time to know that Jesus is the true Messiah which they rejected.

This is when the Jews will face a great tribulation period worse than the one the saints who missed the rapture went through.
This is when all that Jesus said in Matthew 24 come to pass.

Our Lord Jesus said;

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye SHALL BE HATED OF ALL NATIONS for my name's sake.

The only way Israel will be hated by all nations is because the church is no longer on earth. So, there is no more Christian nation to support Israel.

The tribulation period will last for three and a half years.

At the end of it, God will pour out his seven vial judgment to take vengeance on the Jews killed by the anti Christ.

After the seven vial judgment, Jesus will come back as he narrated in Matthew.

Matthew 24:29-30
29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

He comes with white horse with the armies in heaven. The raptured saints of the present day church will form part of that army.

If the church is not already in heaven before this period, where did Jesus get his army? Spirit of saints who are in heaven that have not received a new body cannot be part of the army. It takes a physical body to function on earth.

In addition, 144,000 Jews will be raptured. This are the ones Jesus called the elect in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other
They were sealed for protection in Revelation 7'and are raptured in Revelation 14

Revelation 14:1-3.
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth

What are the Differences between the two great tribulation periods.

1. The first great tribulation period affected only the saints of the church left behind. The second tribulation affected the Jews.
2. The persecutors of the saints in the first is not the anti Christ for he has not yet been revealed. The persecutor in the second tribulation period is the anti Christ.
3. Jesus did not come at the end of the first Tribulation period. But Jesus came at the end of the second tribulation period.
4. Seven trumpet judgment took place at end of the first Tribulation period. The judgment that took place at the end of the second is seven vial judgment.
5. The rapture of the faithful saints of the present church age took place before the first Tribulation period. The rapture of the 144,000 Jews took place at the end of the second tribulation period.

It's important to note here that the seven trumpet judgment and the seven vial judgment are two separate events.
When God poured out his seven trumpet judgment, no reference was made to the anti Christ or the mark of the beast. But when he poured out his seven vial judgment, he consistently made reference to those who received the mark of the beast.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore UPON THE MEN WHICH HAD THE MARK OF THE BEAST, and UPON THEM WHICH WORSHIPPED HIS IMAGE.

And it was after the seven vial judgement that Rome referred to as Babylon the great was completely destroyed.

In summary there will be 3 raptures which are;
1. The rapture of the faithful saints of the present church age which will take place before the great tribulation.
2. The rapture of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. (Revelation 11:12).
3. The rapture of the 144,000 Jews which will take place after the great tribulation period. They were not affected by it because they were already sealed in Revelation 7.

And there will be two great tribulation periods;
1. The great tribulation of the saints of the present day church left behind.
2. The great tribulation of the Jews by the anti Christ.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will give all readers understanding in Jesus name.

The Book of Revelations is a terrifying one, and unique in that it describes future events yet to occur.Most of our pastors don't like teaching on it, and I don't know why.

LOL. 3 raptures and 3 great tribulations. THIS Is new. And, I thought I have heard it all. YOU are doing too much really. You are one twisted fellow; master of EISEGESIS. COMING UP WITH YOUR THEORIES THAT HAS ZERO BIBLICAL SUPPORT. STOP IT, REALLY!

IF you read scripture in its simplest straight form: There’s only ONE great tribulation for ALL, ONE Parousia (coming of the LORD) for ALL.

Matthew 24, Revelation 6, 2 Thes 2, Daniel 9 give us the simplest outline of what to expect for end times. FULL STOP.

Your entire writing stands on the premise that there is a rapture before the great tribulation. JUST GIVE ME ONE CREDIBLE BIBLE VERSE THAT SPEAKS OF A SECRET “FIRST” RAPTURE, AND then 2 more to come? LMAO.

I’m not sure where to begin with your silly perverted post. But, let me just entertain your foolishness.

Revelation 7: vs. 13: ……Sir, THOU KNOWEST….”. So, the angel tells John that he actually does know where these people are coming from……….this answer will be unnecessary if there are 3 raptures and 3 great tribulations

THE ENTIRE CHURCH IS FILTHY AND STAINED WITH SIN—THAT IS THE POINT OF GREAT TRIBULATION; TO PURIFY AND CLEANSE WHICH IS HOW THE BRIDE WILL BE SPOTLESS AND BLEMISH FREE. Daniel 11:35 speaks of the function of great tribulation


THE FOUR BEASTS ARE THE SAME CREATURES PROPHET EZEKIEL SAW IN A VISION OF THE GLORY OF GOD. JOHN THE APOSTLE IS SHOWN THE SAME VISION/CREATURES. ARE THE BESTS IN EZEKIEL’S VISION CHURCH?! WHY WOULD THE BEASTS REPRESENT THE CHURCH IN REVELATION?

Romans 11: how the heck did you make the jump from what is said in Romans 11 to “saints” in Revelation 7? Where does the bible say this? THE BIBLE, NOT YOU.

Matt 24: THIS IS TAKLING ABOUT EVERYONE NOT JUST THE JEWS. Where does Yeshua say it’s just for the Jews?. YOU cannot apply the rest of the gospel of matthew to believers and then suddenly Matt 24 is just for the jews. Makes no sense. STOP this crap, really. KEEP IN MIND MOST OF THE BIBLE IS WRITTEN BY THE JEWS, IN JEWISH CULTURE, AND FOR THE JEWS (AND GENTILES WHO WILL BE GRAFTED INTO THE OLIVE BRANCH OF ISREAL- see Romans 11.)

Listen, there are no hidden mysteries to it, keep it simple, don’t complicate scripture. LEAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT OUT OF THIS, ‘CAUSE YOU ARE THREADING FINE LINE OF BLASPHEMY.

Again, Keep it simple, stupid. IT ain't that complex.

Dummy's guide to eschatology. You are welcomed


Daniel's 70th week begins FOR EVERYONE (7 year period in an unknown future time):

First 3.5 years: "Intensification and increase in frequency of signs of the times" (Matt 24:5-8, Rev 6: 1-6- the opening of 4 seals)-->

AntiChrist establishes/strengthens covenant (Daniel 9:27) & (re)building of 3rd Temple commences (Rev 11)-->

2nd 3.5 years: (1,260 days=42 months): AntiChrist occupies temple, sacrifice ceases, abomination that brings desolation ((Daniel 12:1,7, Matt 24:21-22, 2 Thes 2, Rev. 12:6, 13:5-6)-->

5th seal opens + Satan cast down to earth after fight by Arch Angel Michael- the restrainer removed) (Rev 12, 2Thes2:7-10)-->

Great Tribulation begins x3.5 years or 1260 days cut short (Dan 8: 13-14, Daniel 9: 27b, Matt 24:15, Rev 13:5,7)-->

6th seal opens w/ celestial signs (matt 24:29, Rev 6:12-13, Joel 2:31)-->

Parousia, 1st Resurrection (rapture) (matt 24:29-31,1 Thes 4:16-17, 1Cor 15:51-52, Rev 6:12-13, 2thess2:1)-->

The 7th seal and 7 trumpets begin (Rev 8:7; 11:15-19) + the day of the Lord (G-d’s wrath begins);144,000 Jews sealed. (Rev 7) -->

7 bowls of wrath proceeds (Rev 16)-->

The redemption of 144,000 sealed Jews (Rev 7, 10-12)-->

Christ in white horse and battle of Armageddon (Rev 19:11-21)-->

Thousand year reign (all saints + 1st resurrection), & Satan bound. (Revelation 20)-->

After 1000 year reign, then comes final white throne of judgement/reward (everyone including the unbelievers, + 2nd resurrection) (Revelation 20)-->

Satan, demons and those whose name not in book of life are cast to lake of fire for eternity (Revelation 20)-->

New Jerusalem and New earth, New life. (Revelation 21)

Closing remarks, warning and punishement for those who will ADD OR SUBTRACT (and twist and perverse) to this book. (Revelation 22)

THE END....... Simples.

Onyiiobi7735:
The Book of Revelations is a terrifying one, and unique in that it describes future events yet to occur.Most of our pastors don't like teaching on it, and I don't know why.

The book is not meant to be considered a chronological record of events to come and no, they are all not records of future events. Those who espouse such ideas lie to you.

Stop letting these pastors and mogs deceive you by pretending they know the interpretation of John's dream/visions cause they do not all understand it, even though they pretend to.

SeraphEl:
LOL. 3 raptures and 3 great tribulations. THIS Is new. And, I thought I have heard it all. YOU are doing too much really. You are one twisted fellow; master of EISEGESIS. COMING UP WITH YOUR THEORIES THAT HAS ZERO BIBLICAL SUPPORT. STOP IT, REALLY!

IF you read scripture in its simplest straight form: There’s only ONE great tribulation for ALL, ONE Parousia (coming of the LORD) for ALL.

Matthew 24, Revelation 6, 2 Thes 2, Daniel 9 give us the simplest outline of what to expect for end times. FULL STOP.

Your entire writing stands on the premise that there is a rapture before the great tribulation. JUST GIVE ME ONE CREDIBLE BIBLE VERSE THAT SPEAKS OF A SECRET “FIRST” RAPTURE, AND then 2 more to come? LMAO.

I’m not sure where to begin with your silly perverted post. But, let me just entertain your foolishness.

Revelation 7: vs. 13: ……Sir, THOU KNOWEST….”. So, the angel tells John that he actually does know where these people are coming from……….this answer will be unnecessary if there are 3 raptures and 3 great tribulations

THE ENTIRE CHURCH IS FILTHY AND STAINED WITH SIN—THAT IS THE POINT OF GREAT TRIBULATION; TO PURIFY AND CLEANSE WHICH IS HOW THE BRIDE WILL BE SPOTLESS AND BLEMISH FREE. Daniel 11:35 speaks of the function of great tribulation


THE FOUR BEASTS ARE THE SAME CREATURES PROPHET EZEKIEL SAW IN A VISION OF THE GLORY OF GOD. JOHN THE APOSTLE IS SHOWN THE SAME VISION/CREATURES. ARE THE BESTS IN EZEKIEL’S VISION CHURCH?! WHY WOULD THE BEASTS REPRESENT THE CHURCH IN REVELATION?

Romans 11: how the heck did you make the jump from what is said in Romans 11 to “saints” in Revelation 7? Where does the bible say this? THE BIBLE, NOT YOU.

Matt 24: THIS IS TAKLING ABOUT EVERYONE NOT JUST THE JEWS. Where does Yeshua say it’s just for the Jews?. YOU cannot apply the rest of the gospel of matthew to believers and then suddenly Matt 24 is just for the jews. Makes no sense. STOP this crap, really. KEEP IN MIND MOST OF THE BIBLE IS WRITTEN BY THE JEWS, IN JEWISH CULTURE, AND FOR THE JEWS (AND GENTILES WHO WILL BE GRAFTED INTO THE OLIVE BRANCH OF ISREAL- see Romans 11.)

Listen, there are no hidden mysteries to it, keep it simple, don’t complicate scripture. LEAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT OUT OF THIS, ‘CAUSE YOU ARE THREADING FINE LINE OF BLASPHEMY.

Again, Keep it simple, stupid. IT ain't that complex.

Jesus wasn't talking about everyone. The door of salvation was not yet opened to the Gentiles. He even said to the Canaanite woman who requested healing for her daughter;

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

So, I repeat again that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the present day church.

In the narration of Jesus, he was specific. This is why he told them;

Matthew 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them WHICH BE IN JUDAEA flee into the mountains:

So, he was primarily addressing the Jews or children of Israel.

Salvation only came to us when the Jews rejected Christ. So, right now, they are experiencing blindness in part. And that blindness will remain until God is through with the church of the Gentiles.

SeraphEl:
Dummy's guide to eschatology. You are welcomed


Daniel's 70th week begins FOR EVERYONE (7 year period in an unknown future time):

First 3.5 years: "Intensification and increase in frequency of signs of the times" (Matt 24:5-8, Rev 6: 1-6- the opening of 4 seals)-->

AntiChrist establishes/strengthens covenant (Daniel 9:27) & (re)building of 3rd Temple commences (Rev 11)-->

2nd 3.5 years: (1,260 days=42 months): AntiChrist occupies temple, sacrifice ceases, abomination that brings desolation-->

5th seal opens + Satan cast down to earth after fight by Arch Angel Michael- the restrainer removed) (Rev 12, 2Thes2:7-10)-->

Great Tribulation begins x3.5 years or 1260 days cut short (Dan 8: 13-14, Daniel 9: 27b, Matt 24:15, Rev 13:5,7)-->

6th seal opens w/ celestial signs (matt 24:29, Rev 6:12-13, Joel 2:31)-->

Parousia and "rapture" (matt 24:29-31, Rev 6:12-13, 2thess2:1)-->

The 7th seal and 7 trumpets begin (Rev 8:7; 11:15-19) + the day of the Lord (G-d’s wrath begins) -->

7 bowls of wrath proceeds (Rev 16)-->

Christ in white horse and battle of Armageddon (Rev 19:11-21)-->

Thousand year reign (all saints + 1st resurrection), & Satan bound. (Revelation 20)-->

After 1000 year reign, then comes final white throne of judgement/reward (everyone including the unbelievers, + 2nd resurrection) (Revelation 20)-->

Satan, demons and those whose name not in book of life are cast to lake of fire for eternity (Revelation 20)-->

New Jerusalem and New earth, New life. (Revelation 21)

Closing remarks, warning and punishement for those who will ADD OR SUBTRACT (and twist and perverse) to this book. (Revelation 22)

THE END....... Simples.

Daniel Revelation of the 70 weeks did not include the church age. It was assumed that it will fulfilled without interruption. The one week remaining was interrupted by the church age.

The prophecy of the last one week which is 7 years of the Reign of the anti Christ will be fulfilled after this present church age has ended.

This is why Apostle Paul called it mystery that has been hidden in ages.

I backed up my expositions with scriptures. Please tell me which of them I quoted out of context.

Kobojunkiee:
The book is not meant to be considered a chronological record of events to come and no, they are all not records of future events. Those who espouse such ideas lie to you.

Stop letting these pastors and mogs deceive you by pretending they know the interpretation of John's dream/visions cause they do not all understand it, even though they pretend to.

If you were in an event and you were asked to narrate what happened, won't you do it in the order things happened. Or if you asked to write the story of your life, will you start from the middle and then the end and come back to the beginning?

If the narration was not in chronological order, why didn't Jesus show John the new heaven and earth first before he shows him the tribulation period.

Our Lord Jesus is the embodiment of wisdom and knowledge. And he will not reveal an event to confuse us. He wants us to read and understand it.

So, the book of Revelation is in chronological order except for chapter 12 which in itself is not part of the physical events but happenings in the realm of the spirit.

I have studied this book for over 30 years. I am not a novice. Kenneth Hagin of blessed memory is my mentor. I am very careful with the word of God.

I don't come up with teachings that has no backing in the word of God.

I am compelled to begin to write a book on this subject. Maybe, it will be better understood when the book is ready.

The teachings of eschatology by our church fathers is not correct.

Between the rapture of the church and the creation of the new heaven and earth are about 30 distinct events.

ARE YOU FOR REAL? SO, THE DEATH AND RISEN CHRIST WAS JUST FOR THE JEWS?! SO, YOUR FAITH IS IN VAIN IF Christ was just sent to Jews!!!

Why then, do you read the bible nor believe in Christ, because according to you, HE was only sent to Israel. And, ALL of scriptures was written FIRST to Jews (and then by extension, to gentiles who would believe).

Yeshua was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, FIRST. THEN, at HIS death & resurrection, HE instructed HIS apostles to "go ye into ALL the nations with the gospel OF HIS salvation"........ HE WAS SENT FIRST TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, THEN BY GRACE & FAITH in HIM, THE GENTILES WHO WILL THEN BE GRAFTED INTO THE OLIVE BRANCH OF ISRAEL. See Romans 11.


THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT MATTHEW 24 IS JUST FOR JEWS. Or else ALL of the gospels ARE for Jews. THEN, No reason for Christians to read bible.

YOU MIGHT AS WELL SAY ALL OF THE GOSPEL ACCOUNTS (AND some Epistles OF PAUL) ARE FOR THE JEWS ONLY.

THE WHOLE SCRIPTURES IS WRITTEN FOR JEWS AND BY JEWS! WHY THEN DO CHRISTIANS NEED TO READ THE BIBLE AT ALL??

[b]THE ANSWER: BECAUSE GENTILES ARE GRAFTED IN TO THE OLIVE TREE OF ISRAEL BY GRACE; THEREFORE, WHAT IS PROMISED TO ISRAEL IS OURS IF WE BELIEVE IN YESHUA.. THIS also means ALL of Jacob's trouble (the great tribulation) is for both Jews and Christians.

As for the blindness of the Jews, it is because Jews rejected Yeshau as the messiah at HIS first coming. As we speak, most Jews are still awaiting their Messiah. G-d will open their eyes; primarily, at the time of Jacob's trouble (The Great Tribulation).




[/b]

Ken4Christ:
Jesus wasn't talking about everyone. The door of salvation was not yet opened to the Gentiles. He even said to the Canaanite woman who requested healing for her daughter;

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

So, I repeat again that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the present day church.

In the narration of Jesus, he was specific. This is why he told them;

Matthew 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them WHICH BE IN JUDAEA flee into the mountains:

So, he was primarily addressing the Jews or children of Israel.

Salvation only came to us when the Jews rejected Christ. So, right now, they are experiencing blindness in part. And that blindness will remain until God is through with the church of the Gentiles.

NO wonder. Kenneth Hagin is your mentor. Say no MORE. The grandfather of wealth, prosperity huckerism.

HE is NOT an expert in eschatology. HE was a twister of scritpure to grift. SORRY about that.
As for your study, Quantity is NOT Quality. There are many bible scholars who are heading to hell. Satan knows the scriptures and can quote it and twist it.


I respect your "knowledge", but it doesn't always translate to truth. 2 Timothy 3:7: ".....ever learning yet never able to come to knowledge of truth".

Ken4Christ:
If you were in an event and you were asked to narrate what happened, won't you do it in the order things happened. Or if you asked to write the story of your life, will you start from the middle and then the end and come back to the beginning?

If the narration was not in chronological order, why didn't Jesus show John the new heaven and earth first before he shows him the tribulation period.

Our Lord Jesus is the embodiment of wisdom and knowledge. And he will not reveal an event to confuse us. He wants us to read and understand it.

So, the book of Revelation is in chronological order except for chapter 12 which in itself is not part of the physical events but happenings in the realm of the spirit.

I have studied this book for over 30 years. I am not a novice. Kenneth Hagin of blessed memory is my mentor. I am very careful with the word of God.

I don't come up with teachings that has no backing in the word of God.

I am compelled to begin to write a book on this subject. Maybe, it will be better understood when the book is ready.

The teachings of eschatology by our church fathers is not correct.

Between the rapture of the church and the creation of the new heaven and earth are about 30 distinct events.

SeraphEl:
ARE YOU FOR REAL? SO, THE DEATH AND RISEN CHRIST WAS JUST FOR THE JEWS?! SO, YOUR FAITH IS IN VAIN IF Christ was just sent to Jews!!!

Why then, do you read the bible nor believe in Christ, because according to you, HE was only sent to Israel. And, ALL of scriptures was written FIRST to Jews (and then by extension, to gentiles who would believe).

Yeshua was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, FIRST. THEN, at HIS death & resurrection, HE instructed HIS apostles to "go ye into ALL the nations with the gospel OF HIS salvation"........ HE WAS SENT FIRST TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, THEN BY GRACE & FAITH in HIM, THE GENTILES WHO WILL THEN BE GRAFTED INTO THE OLIVE BRANCH OF ISRAEL. See Romans 11.


THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT MATTHEW 24 IS JUST FOR JEWS. Or else ALL of the gospels ARE for Jews. THEN, No reason for Christians to read bible.

YOU MIGHT AS WELL SAY ALL OF THE GOSPEL ACCOUNTS (AND some Epistles OF PAUL) ARE FOR THE JEWS ONLY.

THE WHOLE SCRIPTURES IS WRITTEN FOR JEWS AND BY JEWS! WHY THEN DO CHRISTIANS NEED TO READ THE BIBLE AT ALL??

[b]THE ANSWER: BECAUSE GENTILES ARE GRAFTED IN TO THE OLIVE TREE OF ISRAEL BY GRACE; THEREFORE, WHAT IS PROMISED TO ISRAEL IS OURS IF WE BELIEVE IN YESHUA.. THIS also means ALL of Jacob's trouble (the great tribulation) is for both Jews and Christians.

As for the blindness of the Jews, it is because Jews rejected Yeshau as the messiah at HIS first coming. As we speak, most Jews are still awaiting their Messiah. G-d will open their eyes; primarily, at the time of Jacob's trouble (The Great Tribulation).




[/b]

Don't quote me wrong. I said before his death, his ministry was limited to the Jews alone. They were the only country that had a covenant with God.

But after his death, the Gentiles had an open door as the Jews rejected him. Hence, the scripture says;

John 1:11-13.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In another place, Apostle Paul wrote;

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

In Paul's letter to the church in Ephesus, he wrote;

Ephesians 2 :12 That AT THAT TIME ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

So, while Jesus was on earth, he didn't travel outside Isreal to preach the gospel and those who received healings were also Jews.

But after his death, salvation has extended to the Gentiles also. It took a while for the early church to understand this truth. Initially, they were preaching only to the Jews.

There mentality changed when Peter was sent to the house of Cornelius and they all got filled with the Holy Spirit.

Before then, the Jews had no dealing with the Gentiles. But now, in Christ, we are now one body.

SeraphEl:
NO wonder. Kenneth Hagin is your mentor. Say no MORE. The grandfather of wealth, prosperity huckerism.

HE is NOT an expert in eschatology. HE was a twister of scritpure to grift. SORRY about that.
As for your study, Quantity is NOT Quality. There are many bible scholars who are heading to hell. Satan knows the scriptures and can quote it and twist it.


I respect your "knowledge", but it doesn't always translate to truth. 2 Timothy 3:7: ".....ever learning yet never able to come to knowledge of truth".

What is wrong with wealth or the message of prosperity? Do you love poverty? If you do, then don't look for a good job and don't aspire to have a growing business.

If you are poor, how can you help others in need?

You seem to me like a baby Christian. There is no minister of the gospel who knows Kenneth Hagin that will speak ill about him.

A man that Jesus talks to one on one in open vision.

Please, don't let God's wrath fall on you.

He is the most balanced teacher I have ever seen on earth in my 36 years in faith.

He brought the message of faith alive.

Though, he has gone to glory, there is virtually no bookshop in the world you don't have his book.

You make no sense at all. There are still no biblical support for your claims. I can't keep going round in circle with this please.


The only thing the scripture made clear is the 3.5 years (1260 days or 42 months) of reign of anti christ NOT 7 years. See the references I listed in Daniel and Revelation. Where did Paul call this the mystery of ages?

WE are in the Church age which began at the day of Pentecost. It will end at the coming of Christ, at the end of 70th week of Daniel; then the Millenial reign of Christ.

The mystery spoken of in Rom 16:25, and Eph 3:1-3 if you read in context, is referring to that of Salvation by grace, thru faith in Christ alone. The mystery contained in the Old Covenant but now revealed in the New Covenant.

THIS mystery has naught to do with your theory of 3 raptures, 3 great tribulations and the end of church age.

Ken4Christ:
Daniel Revelation of the 70 weeks did not include the church age. It was assumed that it will fulfilled without interruption. The one week remaining was interrupted by the church age.

The prophecy of the last one week which is 7 years of the Reign of the anti Christ will be fulfilled after this present church age has ended.

This is why Apostle Paul called it mystery that has been hidden in ages.

I backed up my expositions with scriptures. Please tell me which of them I quoted out of context.

YOU basically just repeated what I said and in effect, agreeing that you mispoke. I rest my case!

I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MOST WEALTH AND PROSPERITY TEACHERS BECAUSE THEY SERVE MAMMOTH (GOD OF MONEY).

IT Is NOT appropriate for ministers of gospel to be living lavishly and especially on the backs of the poor. They should emulate Christ and the apostles who "took nothing for journey, worked with their hands". (Luke 9:3, Acts 20:34)

The scripture is replete with warning on ministers for profit; "whose gods are their belly" (Phil 3:19)

"I seem to you like a baby christian"....that's funny. I won't even comment on that.

End of Story

Ken4Christ:
Don't quote me wrong. I said before his death, his ministry was limited to the Jews alone. They were the only country that had a covenant with God.

But after his death, the Gentiles had an open door as the Jews rejected him. Hence, the scripture says;

John 1:11-13.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In another place, Apostle Paul wrote;

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

In Paul's letter to the church in Ephesus, he wrote;

Ephesians 2 :12 That AT THAT TIME ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

So, while Jesus was on earth, he didn't travel outside Isreal to preach the gospel and those who received healings were also Jews.

But after his death, salvation has extended to the Gentiles also. It took a while for the early church to understand this truth. Initially, they were preaching only to the Jews.

There mentality changed when Peter was sent to the house of Cornelius and they all got filled with the Holy Spirit.

Before then, the Jews had no dealing with the Gentiles. But now, in Christ, we are now one body.

SeraphEl:
YOU basically just repeated what I said and in effect, agreeing that you mispoke. I rest my case!

I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MOST WEALTH AND PROSPERITY TEACHERS BECAUSE THEY SERVE MAMMOTH (GOD OF MONEY).

IT Is NOT appropriate for ministers of gospel to be living lavishly and especially on the backs of the poor. They should emulate Christ and the apostles who "took nothing for journey, worked with their hands". (Luke 9:3, Acts 20:34)

The scripture is replete with warning on ministers for profit; "whose gods are their belly" (Phil 3:19)



End of Story

You are not a Bible student. If you are, you will have a balanced perspective on the subject of prosperity. That one preaches prosperity doesn't mean he serves money.

Jesus preached prosperity. So did he serve money.

The important thing is to have a balanced perspective.

I want to be very wealthy so I can help those in need. What is wrong with that.

How can I give if I don't have. My heart bleeds daily when I see people in abject poverty. Each day, I keep trusting God that he will take me to the level where I can be of help to at least one million people.

SeraphEl:
You make no sense at all. There are still no biblical support for your claims. I can't keep going round in circle with this please.


The only thing the scripture made clear is the 3.5 years (1260 days or 42 months) of reign of anti christ NOT 7 years. See the references I listed in Daniel and Revelation. Where did Paul call this the mystery of ages?

WE are in the Church age which began at the day of Pentecost. It will end at the coming of Christ, at the end of 70th week of Daniel; then the Millenial reign of Christ.

The mystery spoken of in Rom 16:25, and Eph 3:1-3 if you read in context, is referring to that of Salvation by grace, in faith in Christ alone. The mystery contained in the Old Covenant but now revealed in the New Covenant.

THIS mystery has naught to do with your theory of 3 raptures, 3 great tribulations and the end of church age.

Didn't I show you the two great tribulation periods and the three raptures?

The problem you have is your mind has been programmed to accept the way it has been presented to you. But I have studied deeper and I have proved it to you that it is not that way. One day, your eyes will be opened to understand what I am saying. For now, it seems too high for you.

SeraphEl:
Dummy's guide to eschatology. You are welcomed


Daniel's 70th week begins FOR EVERYONE (7 year period in an unknown future time):

First 3.5 years: "Intensification and increase in frequency of signs of the times" (Matt 24:5-8, Rev 6: 1-6- the opening of 4 seals)-->

AntiChrist establishes/strengthens covenant (Daniel 9:27) & (re)building of 3rd Temple commences (Rev 11)-->

2nd 3.5 years: (1,260 days=42 months): AntiChrist occupies temple, sacrifice ceases, abomination that brings desolation ((Daniel 12:1,7, Matt 24:21-22, 2 Thes 2, Rev. 12:6, 13:5-6)-->

5th seal opens + Satan cast down to earth after fight by Arch Angel Michael- the restrainer removed) (Rev 12, 2Thes2:7-10)-->

Great Tribulation begins x3.5 years or 1260 days cut short (Dan 8: 13-14, Daniel 9: 27b, Matt 24:15, Rev 13:5,7)-->

6th seal opens w/ celestial signs (matt 24:29, Rev 6:12-13, Joel 2:31)-->

Parousia, 1st Resurrection (rapture) (matt 24:29-31,1 Thes 4:16-17, 1Cor 15:51-52, Rev 6:12-13, 2thess2:1)-->

The 7th seal and 7 trumpets begin (Rev 8:7; 11:15-19) + the day of the Lord (G-d’s wrath begins);144,000 Jews sealed. (Rev 7) -->

7 bowls of wrath proceeds (Rev 16)-->

The redemption of 144,000 sealed Jews (Rev 7, 10-12)-->

Christ in white horse and battle of Armageddon (Rev 19:11-21)-->

Thousand year reign (all saints + 1st resurrection), & Satan bound. (Revelation 20)-->

After 1000 year reign, then comes final white throne of judgement/reward (everyone including the unbelievers, + 2nd resurrection) (Revelation 20)-->

Satan, demons and those whose name not in book of life are cast to lake of fire for eternity (Revelation 20)-->

New Jerusalem and New earth, New life. (Revelation 21)

Closing remarks, warning and punishement for those who will ADD OR SUBTRACT (and twist and perverse) to this book. (Revelation 22)

THE END....... Simples.

I bet 99.9999% of Christians never knew Angel Michael is the restrainer.

When there are pointers in Daniel 12 v 1, Jude 1v9 and Revelation 13 v 7-17 clearly showing it.

Revelation 6 destroys the pre tribulation doctrine perpetuated by John Darby.

Jokerman:
Revelation 6 destroys the pre tribulation doctrine perpetuated by John Darby.

Even the word “last trumpet” too

Ken4Christ:
1. If you were in an event and you were asked to narrate what happened, won't you do it in the order things happened. Or if you asked to write the story of your life, will you start from the middle and then the end and come back to the beginning?

2. If the narration was not in chronological order, why didn't Jesus show John the new heaven and earth first before he shows him the tribulation period. Our Lord Jesus is the embodiment of wisdom and knowledge. And he will not reveal an event to confuse us. He wants us to read and understand it.

3. So, the book of Revelation is in chronological order except for chapter 12 which in itself is not part of the physical events but happenings in the realm of the spirit. I have studied this book for over 30 years. I am not a novice. Kenneth Hagin of blessed memory is my mentor. I am very careful with the word of God. I don't come up with teachings that has no backing in the word of God. I am compelled to begin to write a book on this subject. Maybe, it will be better understood when the book is ready. The teachings of eschatology by our church fathers is not correct.
Between the rapture of the church and the creation of the new heaven and earth are about 30 distinct events.

1. There are different ways to tell a story. Chronological accounts of events aren't the only kind of accounts there are.

2. Who told you he didn't do that?

3. I disagree! Fortunately, when it comes to God and the things, it matters not how long you claim to have been studying or how many titles you claim to have as a result - case and point the Pharisees! What instead matters is whether you are yourself living your life in continuous submission to and obedience to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ, God's Law, and Truth in the Kingdom of God because Jesus Christ made it clear that it is only to those who are His followers that these revelations are revealed to.

Kobojunkiee:
1. There are different ways to tell a story. Chronological accounts of events aren't the only kind of accounts there are.

2. Who told you he didn't do that?

3. I disagree! Fortunately, when it comes to God and the things, it matters not how long you claim to have been studying or how many titles you claim to have as a result - case and point the Pharisees! What instead matters is whether you are yourself living your life in continuous submission to and obedience to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ, God's Law, and Truth in the Kingdom of God because Jesus Christ made it clear that it is only to those who are His followers that these revelations are revealed to.

Please, are you born again? If yes, when and how. I love to hear your testimony.

And have you received the baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues?

I will sincerely appreciate if you can answer these questions.

Ken4Christ:
1. Please, are you born again? If yes, when and how. I love to hear your testimony.

2. And have you received the baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues?

I will sincerely appreciate if you can answer these questions.

1. Did you know that all those who will end up in eternal damnation at the end will all be born-again since that is the only way to gain access into the Kingdom of God - John 3 vs 1 - 8 - where Heaven and Hell are both abodes in - Matthew 7 vs 13 - 14 & Luke 13 vs 22 - 27 - and Jesus Christ is King and Law over both Heaven and in Hell - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46?

2. If you are asking if the one who is the Spirit of Truth (Jesus Christ) - John 14 vs 25 - 27 & John 16 vs 4 - 16 - then my answer is yes.

Kobojunkiee:
1. Did you know that all those who will end up in eternal damnation at the end will all be born-again since that is the only way to gain access into the Kingdom of God - John 3 vs 1 - 8 - where Heaven and Hell are both abodes in - Matthew 7 vs 13 - 14 & Luke 13 vs 22 - 27 - and Jesus Christ is King and Law over both Heaven and in Hell - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46?

2. If you are asking if the one who is the Spirit of Truth (Jesus Christ) - John 14 vs 25 - 27 & John 16 vs 4 - 16 - then my answer is yes.

No wonder you find it difficult to assimilate spiritual truth. You answer shows that you are not yet a believer in Christ. You must be born again first. Until then, no point arguing anything with you. You don't have the capacity to grasp them.

Ken4Christ:
No wonder you find it difficult to assimilate spiritual truth. You answer shows that you are not yet a believer in Christ. You must be born again first. Until then, no point arguing anything with you. You don't have the capacity to grasp them.

Stop deceiving yourself!

None of what you claimed is God's Truth as it is all instead based on your special interpretation and not that in fact alludee to in scripture. Banding the word "spiritual" around is indicative of the source of your claims as Jesus Christ, the one who is the Truth of God Himself never had to do any of, only your those people pagan leanings are notorious for such.