₦airaland Forum

Kasssandra:
I know...

Back in the year 2010, I was pro-subsidy, and even knew all the talking points...subsidy is what poor Nigerians benefit..

In 2011, when GEJ tried to remove subsides...I got angry, like many times before...but this time, I decided to actually find out what a subsidy was(to under stand why governemnt wanted to remove it)......and it woke me up. I've been reading up ever since....and it only makes me more convinced that it is damaging the economy.

But to be frank, if subsides go...there will be price increases. Even then....

Kasssandra:
Ah, thanks for confirmation.

Treadway:
lol. Even holds a grudge like a woman. Pele ti e oo.

Kasssandra:
1. Per liter

2.With functioning refineries, it would still be expensive.

Ghana has two functioning refineries...and sells fuel above N600 per liter. Niger republic...around 350-400 per liter.

The reason why? We don't make any of the components of refineries in Nigeria. We import the spare parts, plus crude oil costs a lot to refine...

Kasssandra:
He's got nothing in the tank, so he has given up.

Treadway:
I know your type well. You would rather die then admit you are wrong just to remain being perceived as smart. So, as smart as may be, you still end up coming off short..kinda like FFK, an eloquent shitbag. Your Lagos - bridging cost theory was shit, no matter how hard you hold on to it. Contend with that! Won't be responding to you again.

Sammy07:
I still don't understand how flooding in Kogi affects fuel scarcity in Abuja.

Yet there is no fuel scarcity in Kaduna, Ekiti and Nassarawa

obi58:
Bros you don't put the cart before the horse....

There are so many things that can be done to lessen the burden of subsidy whilst putting the necessary structure in place for oil production Sustainability.

You keep talking about the rising costs of oil production in an indefinite manner

. It is the lack of effective monitoring and data collection that has given rise to the astronomical rise in cost of subsidy and this doesn't even include the massive leakages in our daily oil output due to oil theft. What is lacking in this country is accurate qualitative data on:

1. The actual amount of fuel consumed domestically.

2. The actual unit cost of producing fuel locally.

Government has several roles to play to get us out of this mess before talking about throwing the baby with the bath water which is basically what removing subsidy seeks to do.

A responsible government will look to take up the responsibility of eliminating all the inefficiency and leakages in the oil producing cycle. This will give us a truer cost of our subsidy which will be considerably less. Blocking these leakages will include more effective monitoring of our borders to address oil theft to neighboring countries. If we can do it for drugs we can certainly do it for fuel.

A responsible government will look to refurbish and if possible provide incentives for domestic refining to increase even if it means providing crude for refineries in naira and not in dollars and then ensure this oil quota is used locally not diverted abroad. Whatever is left can be exported and sold abroad at international rates.

Add that to other non oil revenue and the government should be able to deliver on its statutory functions.

Kasssandra:
We know what to do to solve the fuel crisis...simply remove fuel subsidy, and let the marekters and transporters determine the price.

Nothing to do with religon, tribalism, and so forth. Remove subsidy, and the marketers, transporters, et al would be able to afford the cost of transporting fuel and selling it. Plus the concept of domestic refining would become profitable.

But most Nigerians don't want subsidy gone...and that includes the rich, poor, slaves, free, Muslim and Christian and idol worshipper, ecist, buddhist, atheist etc...because MOST of us think that cheap fuel is 'beneficial'

Meanwhile, the cost of cheap fuel is a rising deficit in our budget. Made worse by rising costs of production due to rising refining costs....due to rising cost of crude oil, and a continous rise in refining costs...because it does cost money to refine fuel.

If we removed subsidy...like Ghana, Niger, etc...we won't have scarcity again.


Before anyone quotes me...yes I know people will suffer if subsoidy goes. But with subsidy in place...we have a rising deficit....in our budget....and that forces us to take loans. And we cannot eat our cake and have it. I know. And I know things would eventuallybe better if subsidy goes.

That's all I am saying.

Modified

Simply put, if you want free flow of goods and services, everyone on the chain has to make a profit for it to happen. If you don't get that, then I can't explain it any better re subsidy.

Modified

WARNING:

You are free to disagree with me

But if you
-Threaten me
-Threaten to dox me
-Abuse me
-Call me names

Because of my views, then I will report you to the moderators. Clear.?

Kasssandra:
Okay, go and sell exercise books for N5 per piece to help the poor, and see how you make back your investment.




Yes, and profits make sustainability more easier.



Because it is important to the discussion, or how do you pay the workers who refine the fuel, those who transport it, and those who sell it, plus those who maintain and upgrande the refineries....profits made from selling refined product. Subsidy does not let you do that.



Because at the end, when you are forcing people to sell fuel at N175, INSTEAD of the market price of N492 , you will have a lot of corruption because people have to make a profit, or they go out of business...and they use illegitmate means to do so when you force them to sell at a loss.


Yes, by removing subsidy.


And the only way they can block the leakage is by removing subsidy...because it would incentivise the sector to block all leakages...since it won't be able to make a profit. Government too would also have extra cash...to invest in the security

It would even provide the sector the money needed to block leakages...by providing more employment and more jobs...directly and indirectly.



1.Providing crude in naira does not reduce the cost. It just means that you would pay the naira equivalent...not waste time looking for dollars.

2.And also, the best way to incentivise domestic refining...is to remove subsidy SO that the refiners can sell their product AT A PROFIT. Because refining one liter of fuel from crude cannot be costing below N200 per liter.


Remove subsudy, and more money comes in from investment, taxes, and savings....

Simple.

obi58:
Bros who and what determines the cost of refining the crude? That's the key question..... I need you to answer this then we can have a lucid discussion.

What exactly are the cost components in domestic oil production? How does Niger arrive at their price of N350 to Ghana's N600

You're talking about the naira equivalent. I am talking about insulating the country from imported inflation occasioned by international oil price fluctuations.

drololaaof:
There is no subsidy anywhere but means of siphoning our money and the enrichment of some people pockets.
You mention removal of subsidy but you failed to question why are our refineries iare not working and waiting for Dangote refinery to start operation.

Kasssandra:
1..that is for the people.who refine.crude to.answer. You ask them.

2..You want cheap fuel. Nothing wrong with that. But at the same time you cannot sell at a loss.

At the end, you cannot refine fuel and sell it at a loss. Years of doing that have damaged our economy.

I have talked.

Enjoy your cheap fuel. Like your leader Buhari

obi58:
Bros you don't put the cart before the horse....


There are so many things that can be done to lessen the burden of subsidy whilst putting the necessary structure in place for oil production Sustainability.

You keep talking about the rising costs of oil production in an indefinite manner. It is the lack of effective monitoring and data collection that has given rise to the astronomical rise in cost of subsidy and this doesn't even include the massive leakages in our daily oil output due to oil theft. What is lacking in this country is accurate qualitative data on:

1. The actual amount of fuel consumed domestically.

2. The actual unit cost of producing fuel locally.

Government has several roles to play to get us out of this mess before talking about throwing the baby with the bath water which is basically what removing subsidy seeks to do.

A responsible government will look to take up the responsibility of eliminating all the inefficiency and leakages in the oil producing cycle. This will give us a truer cost of our subsidy which will be considerably less. Blocking these leakages will include more effective monitoring of our borders to address oil theft to neighboring countries. If we can do it for drugs we can certainly do it for fuel.

A responsible government will look to refurbish and if possible provide incentives for domestic refining to increase even if it means providing crude for refineries in naira and not in dollars and then ensure this oil quota is used locally not diverted abroad. Whatever is left can be exported and sold abroad at international rates.

Add that to other non oil revenue and the government should be able to deliver on its statutory functions.

obi58:
Your lecture is based on rhetoric and not specifics.

There are so many unopened kernels in this Oil story which a responsible government should drill down into before claiming that subsidy is the only way the truth and the life.

Do you even know if there is accurate reporting of our daily crude oil production?

Refineries are machinery... Inanimate objects. If the federal government can build the second Niger bridge why can't they refurbish the refineries to start with? Or at least concession the renovation/management to the private sector like the airport's

Why must the people always have to suffer for the inefficiency of government which immediately disappears when government resources are privatised and sold off

IbeOkehie:
You're completely wrong in your thinking about this subject, but that's OK! It's Nigeria!

Here's something to think about - there's NOTHING owned, subsidized or controlled by government in Nigeria that has worked well in the long run. Nothing at all. It's not just Nigeria by the way, it's the same all over the world. It's a proven thing, there's plenty of evidence. India, USA, South Africa, name the country. Government destroys everything.

Let me tell you about the USA. The country has lots of postal companies operating - United Postal Service, Fedex, DHL and and the government owned US Postal Service. After the terrorist attacks in 9/11 2001, the Federal Government passed a law mandating that ALL postal companies must be install screeners able to detect explosives and illegal drugs and other contraband.

Every postal service in the USA has been able to do it, they did it within the initial deadline EXCEPT the government owned US Postal Service. Today it's well known in China that if you want to send fentanyl to the USA, you use the US Postal Service, NOT Fedex or UPS or DHL. This was confirmed by a federal police undercover investigation.

Governments - especially national/federal governments - don't work well in most things. It's just a fact. What Nigeria should do is completely DIVEST the government from the ENERGY industry, sell everything to private companies or give the resources back to the communities. Then watch a miracle unfold. I know it will never happen sha and that's why Nigeria will remain a shithole for the forseeable future. The ONLY hope for now is Peter Obi, and once he gets in there Nigerians will start demanding he give them everything for free.

Good Luck to that country, the suffering continues. I just dey look and laugh.

Kasssandra:
We are already suffering from the debts and bad refineries and losses and zero.job creation caused by subsidy

At the end things cost money.

Things cost money.

Things cost money.

If Nigerians are poor, would you support goverment to force traders to sell all foodstuffs at 10 naira per unit? Would you?

Things cost money.

obi58:
While we're at it lets also privatise health-care and education because the government has been poor in these sectors.

What do you think?

obi58:
While we're at it lets also privatise health-care and education because the government has been poor in these sectors.

What do you think?

obi58:
Name that oil producing nation that government has totally divested from the energy sector and totally privatised it.

IbeOkehie:
Oh my God....must everything be total? Well, the USA energy industry is almost 100% privatized. The only parts that are controlled by government are oil wells found on federal lands. And those government owned wells are tainted by corruption.

Read - https://www.google.com/search?q=blm+oil+lease+scandal+bribes&rlz=1C1NDCM_enUS837US837&oq=blm+oil+lease+scandal+bribes&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i546j0i30i546j0i546.18167j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/washington/11royalty.html

When government owns resources, government officials generally take bribes to give access to those resources. Again, this is in EVERY country in the world. This almost never happens with private owned resources or assets.

IbeOkehie:
Oh my God....must everything be total? Well, the USA energy industry is almost 100% privatized. The only parts that are controlled by government are oil wells found on federal lands. And those government owned wells are tainted by corruption.

Read - https://www.google.com/search?q=blm+oil+lease+scandal+bribes&rlz=1C1NDCM_enUS837US837&oq=blm+oil+lease+scandal+bribes&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i546j0i30i546j0i546.18167j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/washington/11royalty.html

When government owns resources, government officials generally take bribes to give access to those resources. Again, this is in EVERY country in the world. This almost never happens with private owned resources or assets.

Kasssandra:
If Nigerians are poor, would you support goverment to force traders to sell all foodstuffs at 10 naira per unit? Would you?

Things cost money.

Kasssandra:
Sadly true.

Or we

1. Tax everyone in Nigeria to adequately fund health

Taxation: a discussion for another day! How efficient is our tax collection system? How progressive is our taxation system? How much of the tax gets to government? How much of the officially collected tax is used for the benefit of the citizens?

2. Remove subsidy on petrol and direct the savings to education and health.

( I work in the private sector healthcare wise. We offer better services than goverment hospitals because we can afford it).

IbeOkehie:
Well he didn't call for privatizing healthcare and education. Healthcare in particular is suited to some level of government subsidy and control because it's a general risk and not subject to VOLUNTARY DEMAND. As in, people don't go around looking for ways to become sick.

Education again involves general risk - you need every citizen to at least be able to read and write so they can understand government laws if nothing else. So when police post a NO ENTRY sign somewhere, everyone should be able to read it. So government should ensure accessible education up to JSS 3 in my view.

Whatever the case though there should be ZERO federal government involvement in ANY level of education in Nigeria.

The federal government took over University education from the Regions & States in 1975 and the state governments took over primary & secondary levels from the churches and private owners, how far? Is education better or worse since that time? Despite that, just to satisfy the Nigerian lust for FREE STUFF, awoof and unearned goodies, I will support government controlled & subsidized education.

Nothing above justifies ANY government ownership, regulation or subsidy in petroleum or energy sector, electricity, rice, pilgrimage, forex, postal service, airlines, seaport & airports....these are just a few of the subsidized and controlled sectors in Nigeria. Nigeria actually runs a Communist system of government and the results are clear for everyone.

obi58:

Why not increase the tax on the wealthy and use it to fund subsidies?

Taxation: a discussion for another day! How efficient is our tax collection system? How progressive is our taxation system? How much of the tax gets to government? How much of the officially collected tax is used for the benefit of the citizens?

obi58:
Is corruption and bribery not present in the private sector as well worldwide?

obi58:
You were the one saying government should divest from Nigeria's energy sector when even in the United States there is still government involvement.

Pray do tell, why is that the case since government is so corrupt and inefficient worldwide in your opinion?

obi58:
He didn't call for privatisation but he may as well as have because his viewpoint is skewed towards profitability at the expense of the greater good and completely regardless of the impact of the price shock a fuel subsidy removal will have on the general population who are already at breaking point.

IbeOkehie:
Profitability is the greater good.

That's why China has prospered since it allowed private profit in 1978. That's why the Soviet Union failed - it didn't allow private profit.

That's why Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries have some of the highest HDI in the world, they're more capitalist than the USA. Go and check their laws and regulations.

There's no profit in North Korea but plenty in South Korea. I know which country most people would prefer to live in.

IbeOkehie:
Yes private sector has corruption. The difference is that private managers or owners pay the direct cost of their own corruption, inefficiency or stupidity. The

Government corruption imposes costs on everyone, including the uninvolved. For this reason, the government officials who manage government companies and resource simply don't care. They will get paid no matter what. Right now, at this moment, thousands of people are still drawing salary from Ajaokuta Steel and NNPC Kaduna Refinery. That's government "work".

So I answered your question. Now here's my question to you -

In your real world observation, between private and government run companies & institutions, which are more corrupt? Because that's the real issue. It's like people accusing USA of racism. There's racism everywhere but I think the USA is the least racist or discriminatory nation on earth. So I would prefer to live in the USA than in say, China.

So what's your answer?

Kasssandra:
We should but it won't cover the costs....at the end of the day. Subsidy costs are higher than any tax we can collect from the wealthy.



As at now, our tax to gdp ratio is 8.1% (for comparison Ghana is at 24%, and South Africa is 24%). Less than 30% of our economically active people , rich and poor, pay a tax to federal and state governments.

obi58:
Corruption and not subsidy is what is strangling the government.

obi58:
Bros....

The FBI, BBC and the CIA are also government agencies FYI. So I refuse to believe the generalisation that governments are inefficient and so should be basically be abolished for the efficient private sector.

Government agencies do work in some countries and if a responsible government takes the reins the people will benefit the most.

obi58:
Scandinavian countries capitalist where health and education are free?

China which is notorious for its protectionist policies?

Guy chill