AreaFada2:


Take Obis of Agbor for example. Irrespective of what they say of their history, several of them had Benin names such as Gbenoba (Igbinoba) 1890-1911, Obika Gbenoba (Igbinoba) from 1935-67 and others who ruled much earlier such as Agho, Obanor, etc. Benin links to the royalty and streets/quarters are very clear.

Below, the Obi of Agbor in 1935 (Obi Obika Gbenoba)
I think the picture is that of the father or the grand father of the current Obi of Agbor, since his title is hereditary. I don't really understand why someone chose to change the title to "Dein" ...?
Whomever denies the Agbor people are Edo needs his eyes to be examined.

Although I told you guys long ago that there was never such a thing as ogiso, oduduwa, oranmiyan, igodomigodo... The fact is that in Nigeria and in most of Africa people are not very educated on the meaning of history. You guys seem to have this belief that people alive today would be able to tell what happened several hundreds of years before their great grand father's grand father was even born.
Even unwritten words can't logically travel such time span talkless of entire unwritten events.

An other thing: anybody whose ancestral title is Obi is linked to Benin. Show me any of them, I will show you his Benin regalia.

The current Obi of Agbor when he was crowned.
It seems he is the one who changed the title to "Dein".
Why do our people love to destroy their traditions so much ? Why do we love to devide ourselves all the time ? Indeed when was the last time this Obi was spotted with his Benin regalia ?
Although he is a noble of Benin empire, I am a commoner, so I owe him that respect.

Ghostwon821:

Below, the Obi of Agbor in 1935 (Obi Obika Gbenoba)
I think the picture is that of the father or the grand father of the current Obi of Agbor, since his title is hereditary. I don't really understand why someone chose to change the title to "Dein" ...?
Whomever denies the Agbor people are Edo needs his eyes to be examined.

Nobody changed the title to Dein. Dein was used in ancient times. Obi, and even eze, were used too. Obi became more prominent along the line, especially under colonial rule. The present Obi of Agbor is merely trying to return the old title of Dein to the prominence it once enjoyed. Even outside Agbor, in places like Issele-Ukwu and co., nwadei (nwa-Dein) still means a Prince, ie, son of a king; and umudei (Umu-Dein) still means children of a king. This underscores the 'ancientness' of Dei/Dein in that axis. It is not a recent creation.

RedboneSmith:

Nobody changed the title to Dein. Dein was used in ancient times. Obi, and even eze, were used too. Obi became more prominent along the line, especially under colonial rule. The present Obi of Agbor is merely trying to return the old title of Dein to the prominence it once enjoyed. Even outside Agbor, in places like Issele-Ukwu and co., nwadei (nwa-Dein) still means a Prince, ie, son of a king; and umudei (Umu-Dein) still means children of a king. This underscores the 'ancientness' of Dei/Dein in that axis. It is not a recent creation.

Do you care to provide evidence ?

Ghostwon821:

Below, the Obi of Agbor in 1935 (Obi Obika Gbenoba)
I think the picture is that of the father or the grand father of the current Obi of Agbor, since his title is hereditary. I don't really understand why someone chose to change the title to "Dein" ...?
Whomever denies the Agbor people are Edo needs his eyes to be examined.

Oh, you see. He even looks much like my late relative in his Enogie (ducal) regalia.
I believe the idea of Dein was to call the title a name of one of the earliest monarchs of Agbor. I may be wrong though.

Asaba case is even more pathetic. Ajayi Crowther somehow highlighted it in the 1800s. He mentioned that the majority Edo speaking people were being diluted by Igbo from across the Niger. Today, many Asaba people don't even know of Asaba population composition back then.

Many Igbo criticise Zik of Africa for writing in his book published in the early 70s that Onitsha people are of Benin origin. Ojukwu hated him for it. But Zik's grandmother was emphatic that they are from Benin.

We are not dragging anything or anyone but please don't distort history. That is Edo position on history.

Ghostwon821:

Do you care to provide evidence ?

The fact that in many Kingdoms all over Anioma, nwadei is prince and umudei is descendants of a king, and Idibodein means servants of the king, and they didn't start using those expressions when Obi Keagborekuzi Ikenchuku ascended the throne should be evidence enough for people who can recognise items from lexicons.

Edit: Also forgot to mention that Chief Iduuwe who wrote a manuscript on Agbor history before Keagborekuzi became the Obi, stated quite clearly that the first Obi of Agbor, called Ebonka was known by Dein.

Ghostwon821:
The current Obi of Agbor when he was crowned.
It seems he is the one who changed the title to "Dein".
Why do our people love to destroy their traditions so much ? Why do we love to devide ourselves all the time ? Indeed when was the last time this Obi was spotted with his Benin regalia ?
Although he is a noble of Benin empire, I am a commoner, so I owe him that respect.

It's not only in Agbor. In Eastern Yorubaland monarchs there increasingly don't use their Benin-type regalia still prevalent just 10 to 20 years ago. There is pressure to identify with larger tribes like Igbo and Yoruba for political expediency.

But old pictures don't lie. Google the two monarchs in Owo. Olowo of Owo and Ojomo-Oluda of Ijebu-Owo in Ondo State.

Just like in Benin, the Ezomo is the only town chief that has a coronet. Over time Ojomo's (Ezomo) coronet in Owo became a crown. He is now an Oba and descended from same ancestor as the Olowo. While Ezomo remains a chief in Benin and now third ranking among the Edions of Benin (Uzama) after Oliha and Edohen.

RedboneSmith:



Edit: Also forgot to mention that Chief Iduuwe who wrote a manuscript on Agbor history before Keagborekuzi became the Obi, stated quite clearly that the first Obi of Agbor, called Ebonka was known by Dein.

So the chief you are talking about is more than 1000 years old, right ? Otherwise, I don't know how he would be able to know what was going on 1000 years ago and which wasn't recorded in writing. Or perhaps the chief is a time traveler.

RedboneSmith:


The fact that in many Kingdoms all over Anioma, nwadei is prince and umudei is descendants of a king, and Idibodein means servants of the king, and they didn't start using those expressions when Obi Keagborekuzi Ikenchuku ascended the throne should be evidence enough for people who can recognise items from lexicons.

You are yet to provide proof, for your info, our West African languages can't be analysed via etymology because their written form is too recent.

I asked for proof and you provided me with "I strongly believe my story, therefore you should believe my story too and everybody should"

Ghostwon821:


So the chief you are talking about is more than 1000 years old, right ? Otherwise, I don't know how he would be able to know what was going on 1000 years ago and which wasn't recorded in writing. Or perhaps the chief is a time traveler.

So people's orally-preserved memories of their past are completely of no value? Noted.

You are yet to provide proof, for your info, our West African languages can't be analysed via etymology because their written form is too recent.

I asked for proof and you provided me with "I strongly believe my story, therefore you should believe my story too and everybody should"

K.

RedboneSmith:

So people's orally-preserved memories of their past are completely of no value? Noted.
K.

There is no way to prove that a story which is claimed to be "orally preserved" is actually such.
When such a claim is made, it can only be taken as anecdotal or recreational, what matters are the hard evidence and when they coincide with the story, then the story is somewhat proven to have some truth in it (the truth in it being exactly what the hard evidence says).
You gave me stories, not evidence.

Ghostwon821:

There is no way to prove that a story which is claimed to be "orally preserved" is actually such.
When such a claim is made, it can only be taken as anecdotal or récréatif, what matters are the hard evidence and when they coincide with the story, then the story is somewhat proven to have some truth in it.
You gave me stories, not evidence.

If I say now that the Ogisos and Obas like Eweka, Oguola and Ewuare, etc are just stories because these names do not exist in any contemporary written records by anyone whether European or local, you will go into an angry frenzy.

A historian of his people (Chief Iduuwe) recorded the title 'Dein' BEFORE Obi Keagborekuzi even became obi but someone you choose to believe that the Obi invented it. How? Did Chief Iduuwe travel forward in time to find out Keagborekuzi was going to invent 'Dein' when he became king, so he decided to record the title even BEFORE Keagborekuzi introduced it?

Was it also Keagborekuzi (who just became Obi 'yesterday') that convinced towns as far away as Issele-Uku, Aboh and Onitsha to introduce nwadei and umudei and Idibodein in their vocabulary and cultural spaces.

Ọmọ, its too late to be up arguing inanities. Believe what you will.

RedboneSmith:


If I say now that the Ogisos and Obas like Eweka, Oguola and Ewuare, etc are just stories because these names do not exist in any contemporary written records by anyone whether European or local, you will go into an angry frenzy.

If you had read my earlier comment (which I reproduced below) then you wouldn't be saying the above.

Ghostwon821:
Although I told you guys long ago that there was never such a thing as ogiso, oduduwa, oranmiyan, igodomigodo... The fact is that in Nigeria and in most of Africa people are not very educated on the meaning of history. You guys seem to have this belief that people alive today would be able to tell what happened several hundreds of years before their great grand father's grand father was even born.
Even unwritten words can't logically travel such time span talkless of entire unwritten events.

An other thing: anybody whose ancestral title is Obi is linked to Benin. Show me any of them, I will show you his Benin regalia.

I want people in Africa to understand the meaning of the word "history" and stop making up their "history" which is making us a laughing stock in the world, indeed educated people in Europe and Asia and America can see through your bs and they just conclude that we don't have any history. You guys are only fooling other uneducated and gullible Africans, nobody else is fooled.

The Germans wanted to come and do some excavation in Benin city in order to discover more of our history, I hope their archeologists do so, I wonder what we will discover.

RedboneSmith:


A historian of his people (Chief Iduuwe) recorded the title 'Dein' BEFORE Obi Keagborekuzi even became obi but someone you choose to believe that the Obi invented it. How? Did Chief Iduuwe travel forward in time to find out Keagborekuzi was going to invent 'Dein' when he became king, so he decided to record the title even BEFORE Keagborekuzi introduced it?

You are being intellectually dishonest.
1) I didn't say that the Obi invented the word.
2) I said the Obi changed the title from "Obi" to "Dein"
3) your claims about the word "Dein" remain without proof
4) if the chief wrote a story about the word "Dein" in which he makes the same claim as you before the Obi made the change, then isn't it logical to assume that the Obi borrowed the word from the chief ?
5) in which universe would you assume that I would believe the chief did a time travel to the future ? Especially when a much more logical explanation is not hard to find ?


Have a nice day.

I think the reason the Obi of Agbor changed his title is that he wasn't raised by his father (his father died when he was 2 years old), he didn't learn his traditions from his father, he allowed a story teller to dupe him and that is why he changed his title.

Ghostwon821:
I think the reason the Obi of Agbor changed his title is that he wasn't raised by his father (his father died when he was 2 years old), he didn't learn his traditions from his father, he allowed a story teller to dupe him and that is why he changed his title.

You are very correct, but the Obi still acknowledges his Benin roots just like the Olu of Warri, Obi of Issele-Uku.

Ghostwon821:
I want people in Africa to understand the meaning of the word "history" and stop making up their "history" which is making us a laughing stock in the world, indeed educated people in Europe and Asia and America can see through your bs and they just conclude that we don't have any history. You guys are only fooling other uneducated and gullible Africans, nobody else is fooled.

Again you make a very valid point. This is why
Benin history has been introduced into the British secondary school curriculum, in doing so, the British started their research in aspect of Benin history that they can backup with early independent European eyewitness accounts. Benin history was chosen to make children of black heritage lean about black African past glorious history pre slaving.

They are also considering verifiable materials on Ashanti empire. More materials and research is being done on Benin history to expand the scope. The Benin Kingdom/empire is the only one worthy of research in this regard so far in Nigeria, the Europeans know that most Africa history/stories that were written starting in the late 1800s by some so called Africa historians are not necessarily true.

BanyXchi:
pls stop disgracing us Yorubas, leave these people alone we have nothing in common with them. Why don't you have some self-esteem and self-respect? Do you like it when they come on threads like this and start insulting us? What do you gain from this? Are you even yoruba at all? Because no sane yoruba man would care about anything the east of Ore, pls they are not yoruba and we have nothing in common with them and we don't need nothing from them. Let's focus on the disintegration of this barbaric british contraption.

it is not my business if they are Yoruba or not but the oba of Benin is Yoruba not the bini people

samuk:


I believe we have to look critically at the transition from the Ogiso dynasty to the Oba dynasty. I know this is a very controversial area that many people don't want to get involved in. Our French brother actually argued that it has always been one dynasty and the two dynasty was a recent thing, I am inclined to believe. I don't believe the Ogiso dynasty was fabricated as he suggested because there are too many oral traditions across various Edoid tribes to support the Ogisos.

The difficulty for me is that most early European written accounts of Benin history are not in English and many haven't been translated. I would like to know if the title of any Benin monarch is buried in these early writings, I want to know when it changed from Ogiso to Oba, the earliest I can find the use of oba is Button written accounts in 1865.

In 1824, the British was in yoruba land and between 1824 and 1891 the British was very active in Nigeria, both the British and their local agents such as Ajayi Crowder had numerous written accounts of that period and different tribes but nothing was written to support Benin/Ife connection.

Ryder in 1965 came to the same conclusion that Benin/Ife connection wasn't recorded in early Europeans writings of Benin and that it was a recent (after the fall of Benin) tradition.

Since I can't find any evidence to link Benin to Ife, the two dynastic history of Benin become an issue for me.

I also noticed that since I divided Benin history into pre-1897 and post 1897, the insults from some of our yoruba neighbours greatly reduced, some even become less interested in the Benin/Ife connection. I even put up $1000, one thousand US dollars for anyone that can provide any written evidence before 1895 that support Benin/Ife connection, till now no one on this forum have been able to provide any evidence.

I will not want to go on here why I think the Benin palace is promoting the Benin/Ife connection, I have already made my thought known in the past.

After the fall of Benin in 1897, Benin history was changed to align with the political situation of the time, Benin history still carries that distortion.

The proclaiming of Oranmiyan as an Oba by the current Oba is a continuation of the post 1897 political history of Benin.

Yoruba history since 1824 have followed the same pattern of continously moving the goalposts, every yoruba towns and villages now traces their origin to Ife, including those that once claimed Sudan and many other places outside Nigeria.

The request for written Pre-1897 Benin History as a basis to attack the Oranmiyan-Benin Royalty link is weak, particularly when your own sources are oral histories recounted by persons born in the 18th or 19th Century.
A book written in the 20th Century may be based on historical findings that date back centuries which may be corroborated by recent archeological discoveries. Trying to discredit such book based on publication date is at best the works of uninformed minds.

Ryder's book "A Reconsideration of the Ife-Benin Relationship" which some people attacking the OP tried to quote from was published in 1965 and contained a dubious and discredited 1823 account of a European that Benin Kingdom was founded by a white man who came over the great waters and supplanted the Ogisos. That someone would even made allusions to such ludicrous story to counter the OP shows the paucity and weakness of evidence to support their claims.

Unsurprisingly, Ryder's later book "Benin and the Europeans, 1485-1897" which was published in 1969 acknowledged the Oranmiyan story in the establishment of the Oba Dynasty in Benin.

Chief Jacob U. Egharevba, the local Benin Historian, acknowledged by people like Ryder and many others, is widely accepted as an authority on Benin History. In all his books including the popular "A Short History of Benin", the Oranmiyan-Benin link was acknowledged as the start of the Oba of Benin Dynasty.

From almost all credible sources including statements from the Benin Palace, the Obas of Benin are descendants of Oranmiyan, a Yoruba Prince.

The OP substantiated his claims with clear evidence from written history. All others opposing him want us to simply take their words or what their grandmothers told them as authoritative. Such position is ludicrous. You cannot re-write history to suit you or your feelings.