₦airaland Forum

Ken4Christ:
If only he knows the doom that awaits those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus, he will speedily come to Jesus. Well, we'll keep preaching the truth and also expose the deceit of false religion. Those who are ordained for eternal life will take warning and receive salvation. But the sons of perdition will continue in the wrong way.

They are hoping that somehow, Islam will lead them to paradise despite the big HOLES in their standard Islamic Narratives.
They think they can bribe God with showing that they pray hard and follow the Sunnah of Mohammed faithfully

TenQ:
You wrote answers 1 through 7 (I assume for my questions) when non of your answers are related to my questions.

I will give you the first three to confirm if you are aware of what you did.

The Question
1. Which one of the current Quran is the Quran of Allah on the tablet in heaven?

Your response
There are seven recognized Ahruf that encompass broader linguistic variations, while there are multiple Riwayat associated with each Qira’at, reflecting individual narrators’ methods.

You can place the 23 claimed different Quran in them.

We expect that there is just ONE Kalam Allah in paradise. Is this wrong?

If there is one Kalam Allah which one of the seven dialects is the Kalam Allah?

Scholars have found over 36 different Arabic Qur'ans (far much more that the seven dialects you claim). Even then, till now, no Muslim has been able to tell us the name of the Qur'an sent to other tribes other than the Quraysh tribe.


Except what you are claiming is that 26 Kalam Allah are in paradise.


Question
2. How come the Sanaa Quran is different from the standard Qurans in many verses?
Lets assume that you tried your best here except that the logic doesn't add up.
How is any Muslim sure that a STUDENT wrote those verses in the Sana'a Quran?
Leather Patchments are expensive and thus would not be given to a beginner: slates are more appropriate for students.
Speculations is definitely NOT a proof

Your response

2. Is all the Sana'a Quran different from the Quran in use? Of 926 just one with erased and corrected text is what you fail to prove different. You fail to acknowledge comments that are observed in it stated in the 17 mins video.

The archaeological findings, particularly the Ṣanaa 1 manuscript, reveal significant insights into the early textual traditions of the Qurʾān. The study suggests that the lower writing of the manuscript represents a non-ʿUt̠mānic textual tradition, distinct from the standardized version established by ʿUt̠mān. This lower text is indicative of the early state of the Qurʾān during the time of the Prophet Muhammad and the Companions, showing variations that likely arose from the aural transmission of the text.

The comparison indicates that the ʿUt̠mānic text type, which is the basis for the Qurʾān as it exists today, is generally more faithful to the original recitations of the Prophet than the C-1 tradition represented in the manuscript. However, the findings also highlight that variations among the different codices—like those in C-1 and the codex of Ibn Masʿūd—were not merely accidental but were likely shaped by the oral traditions of the time.

In conclusion, while the ʿUt̠mānic version is seen as preserving the Prophetic prototype more accurately, the archaeological evidence underscores the existence of multiple, contemporaneous textual traditions that enrich our understanding of the Qurʾān's early history and its transmission.


Is it UNTRUE that your Youtuber acknowledged that there are differences within the first five minutes of his broadcast.
He then gave excuses that the errors were scribal error of a Qur'anic student.

The Question was: How is any Muslim sure that a STUDENT wrote those verses in the Sana'a Quran?


The Question:
3. Why did Muslim scholars tell white lies on the preservation of the Quran?
One of the LIES is that the Quran of Mohammed is perfectly Preserved word for word up to the diacritical marks!
Is this a true statement?


Your Response:

?

I didn't see anything related


Question 1 Second set
1. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected in the time of Mohammed?
2. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again in the time of Abubaker without using that of Mohammed?
3. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again during the time of Uthman?
Your response
3. Was the Quran recollected or what had been previously collected unified and standardised?


Question 1, 2 and 3 required just a YES or a NO answer. You response didn't answer any of the three questions.

The Qur'an was collected at least three different times: The first was in the lifetime of Mohammed, the second was the lifetime of Abubaker and the third was the lifetime of Uthman.
Challenge this and I will give you evidence for each

Question
4. Why would you use the Qur'an according to the RECITATION of Hafs if you have any of these Qur'ans from Mohammed to Abubaker to Uthman?

Your response
4. My use or non use of Hafs Quran doesn't invalidate the authenticity of other types or is it said to be ejected anywhere?

You seem not to get it. Let's assume that You have the manuscript of Uthman, why use the RECITATION of Hafs rather than the Manuscript of Uthman?


Question
5. Is it untrue that according to Zaid
a. Qur'an of Abubakar has Quran 9:128-129 but doesn't have Qur'an 33:23?
b. Qur'an of Uthman corrected Abubakar's Qur'an by adding Quran 33:23?
Do you need evidence?

Your Response





I am still expecting your response

Question
6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an.
If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do?

Your Response
6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an.
If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do?

All I needed was anyone of Ibn Mas'ud, Ubayy bin Ka'b, Mu'adh bin Jabal, and Salim the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifah.

They were alive but we're not part of the committees of both Abubaker and Uthman


Is this hadith Maudi or Daif?
Sahih al-Bukhari 4481
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)

Question
7. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks.
a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times?
b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman?
c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman?
d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters?
e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an?

Your response

7. The Quran is preserved however the exaggerated claim you submit is not accurate as the Quran is first oral and the diacritical marks or even alphabets have evolved over time.

Name the scholars who you say talk on preservation to the diacritical marks where, when and pointers to verify this.

You will see that you totally escaped answering any of the questions


One of your modern scholars: Qur'an preserved word for word even up to the pronunciation


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijGPLHISgho?si=SVcIY39f789R04PV

Here is Mohammed Hijab saying the word for word preservation before the two minutes mark.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVM5mYOQjIY?si=jLzD9Qo9gMCdcJqH


I could get you more but I wanted videos that are very short.

Of course the Hadith and your Old scholars disagree with you. The word for word Preservation statement is a fabrication by the modern scholars to deceive the modern Muslims.


We can end this about the Qur'an if you choose or properly respond to my specific questions.

Have a nice day

Now you reveal the truth.

In context based on your videos which both fail to show literature backing of the preservation of the Quran to diacritical marks you cannot discern that as was the case that led to the documentation of there are now millions of Muslims all over the world that have memorized the Quran be it Hafs, Warsh or any other depending on the part of the world.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emKUWyDrqvQ?si=QBvca7xm6aPE5NdH

This is unlike when the followers of Islam were relatively few and dying off through conflict before Abu Bakr's and later Uthnan's call for standardisation to unify the recitation.

Is the Quran of Shia different from Sunni or Ahmadiyah? No.

Can you say same for the Catholic and Anglican Bible? Perhaps you will say only the new testament matters.

Did you ever come across Dr Asma Hilali's view that questioned Sana'a manuscript was a school exercise? I don't think so.

Of course you are ignorant of the fact that Ubay taught many students including Abu Bakr and Umar who gathered around him to read the Quran in the best way and to understand it.


He read the Quran and Zayd bin Thabit wrote it. He has an exceptional place in the history of Islam thanks to this service.

Share some of your vast knowledge and clarify if Uthmans standardisation of the Quran occurred before or after the death of Ubay ibn Ka'b?

You already have the answers you choose to agree with. Indeed your intentions are always mischief centered. Glad you come clean now for all to see.

Ohyoudidnt:
Now you reveal the truth.

In context based on your videos which both fail to show literature backing of the preservation of the Quran to diacritical marks you cannot discern that as was the case that led to the documentation of there are now millions of Muslims all over the world that have memorized the Quran be it Hafs, Warsh or any other depending on the part of the world.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emKUWyDrqvQ?si=QBvca7xm6aPE5NdH

This is unlike when the followers of Islam were relatively few and dying off through conflict before Abu Bakr's and later Uthnan's call for standardisation to unify the recitation.

Is the Quran of Shia different from Sunni or Ahmadiyah? No.

Can you say same for the Catholic and Anglican Bible? Perhaps you will say only the new testament matters.

Did you ever come across Dr Asma Hilali's view that questioned Sana'a manuscript was a school exercise? I don't think so.

Of course you are ignorant of the fact that Ubay taught many students including Abu Bakr and Umar who gathered around him to read the Quran in the best way and to understand it.


He read the Quran and Zayd bin Thabit wrote it. He has an exceptional place in the history of Islam thanks to this service.

Share some of your vast knowledge and clarify if Uthmans standardisation of the Quran occurred before or after the death of Ubay ibn Ka'b?

You already have the answers you choose to agree with. Indeed your intentions are always mischief centered. Glad you come clean now for all to see.

1. Is it a wrong notion that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved, word for word up to the diacritical marks?
Yes or No!
2. If you cannot answer my questions because it betrays the imperfections of the Qur'an, nothing else matters. Evidence abound that the Qur'an is not perfectly preserved. But you don't care. Who is fooling who?

I asked you

Is this hadith fabricated or weak

Sahih al-Bukhari 4481
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)

Verses were left out of the Qur'an yet Muslims say that it is still preserved word for word, up to it's diacritical marks.

Is this not self delusion?




Where is the verse of Rajam in the Qur'an of Hafs you use

Sahih al-Bukhari 6830
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
I used to teach (the Qur'an to) some people of the Muhajirln (emigrants), among whom there was `Abdur Rahman bin `Auf.....
Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed......

The Qur'an is perfectly preserved and the verse on Rajam was deleted!?
SMH!



Conclusion of Muslims: The Qur'an was perfectly preserved, word for word, up to it's diacritical marks even though evidences around that verses were excluded and verses somehow disappeared from it.
This is the greatest self delusion that could befall a person because the Truth Never Matters.



Are you beyond help?

John 14:6-7:
"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you should have known my Father also: and from now on you know him, and have seen him."

TenQ:
1. Is it a wrong notion that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved, word for word up to the diacritical marks?
Yes or No!
2. If you cannot answer my questions because it betrays the imperfections of the Qur'an, nothing else matters. Evidence abound that the Qur'an is not perfectly preserved. But you don't care. Who is fooling who?

I asked you

Is this hadith fabricated or weak

Sahih al-Bukhari 4481
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)

Verses were left out of the Qur'an yet Muslims say that it is still preserved word for word, up to it's diacritical marks.

Is this not self delusion?




Where is the verse of Rajam in the Qur'an of Hafs you use

Sahih al-Bukhari 6830
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
I used to teach (the Qur'an to) some people of the Muhajirln (emigrants), among whom there was `Abdur Rahman bin `Auf.....
Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed......

The Qur'an is perfectly preserved and the verse on Rajam was deleted!?
SMH!



Conclusion of Muslims: The Qur'an was perfectly preserved, word for word, up to it's diacritical marks even though evidences around that verses were excluded and verses somehow disappeared from it.
This is the greatest self delusion that could befall a person because the Truth Never Matters.



Are you beyond help?

John 14:6-7:
"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you should have known my Father also: and from now on you know him, and have seen him."

Quran 2.106-107 Maududi - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an
This is the answer to an objection which the Jews raised to create doubts in the minds of the Muslims. They argued like this: The Qur'an says that the former Scriptures had been sent down by Allah and that it also has been sent down by Him. If it is so, why does the Qur'an then give such commands as differ from those contained in the former Books'? How can the same Allah give different commands at different times? Besides, they said, "The Qur'an asserts that the Jews and the Christians have forgotten a part of the teachings sent down to them. How is it possible that the teachings of Allah could be obliterated from memory?" They did not raise these objections for the sake of arriving at the truth but for the sake of creating mischief. Allah answers their objections thus: "I am the Sovereign and My powers are unlimited. I can repeal any order of Mine or allow it to be forgotten, but I substitute for it something that serves the same purpose better or at least equally well."

Ibn Kathir
.......

Ibn Jarir then said, "Although Allah directed His statement indicating His greatness towards His Prophet, He also rejected the lies of the Jews who denied that the rulings of the Torah could undergo abrogation.

The Jews also denied the prophethood of Jesus and Muhammad, because of their dislike for what they brought from Allah, such as changing some rulings of the Torah, as Allah commanded.

Allah thus proclaimed to the Jews that He owns the heavens and earth and also all authority in them. Further, the subjects in Allah's kingdom are His creation, and they are required to hear and obey His commands and prohibitions. Allah has full authority to command the creation as He wills, forbidding them from what He wills, abrogate what He wills, uphold what He wills, and decide whatever commandments and prohibitions He wills.''
Ibn Kathir) say that the Jews' dismissal of the occurrence of the abrogation is only a case of their disbelief and rebellion. The sound mind does not deny that there could be a abrogation in Allah's commandments, for He decides what He wills, just as He does what He wills.

Further, abrogation occurred in previous Books and Law. For instance, Allah allowed Adam to marry his daughters to his sons and then later forbade this practice. Allah also allowed Nuh to eat from all kinds of animals after they left the ark, then prohibited eating some types of foods. Further, marrying two sisters to one man was allowed for Israel and his children, but Allah prohibited this practice later in the Torah. Allah commanded Abraham to slaughter his son, then repealed that command before it was implemented. Also, Allah commanded the Children of Israel to kill those who worshipped the calf and then repealed that command, so that the Children of Israel were not all exterminated (I know your Bible has a horrid difference which appears partial in sparing Aaron though our view of this differs in Islam).

There are many other instances that the Jews admit have occurred, yet they ignore them. Also, it is a well-known fact that their Books foretold about Muhammad and contained the command to follow him. These texts, in their Books, indicate that the Jews were required to follow the Prophet Muhammad and that no good deed would be accepted from them, unless it conformed to Muhammad's Law. The Prophet brought another Book, - the Qur'an -, which is the last revelation from Allah.


You shared something where the Jews tried to hide the punishment of death to the fornicator by covering it until a Jewish companion of Muhammad pbuh exposed them?

Does Quran 24:2 As for female and male fornicators, give each of them one hundred lashes,and do not let pity for them make you lenient in ˹enforcing˺ the law of Allah, if you ˹truly˺ believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a number of believers witness their punishment.

not abolish what is said in the Torah/Talmud followed by the Jews on stoning to death the fornicator?


In any case it has been another wasteful encounter with you. Hop on to your next thrill

Ohyoudidnt:
Quran 2.106-107 Maududi - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an
This is the answer to an objection which the Jews raised to create doubts in the minds of the Muslims. They argued like this: The Qur'an says that the former Scriptures had been sent down by Allah and that it also has been sent down by Him. If it is so, why does the Qur'an then give such commands as differ from those contained in the former Books'? How can the same Allah give different commands at different times? Besides, they said, "The Qur'an asserts that the Jews and the Christians have forgotten a part of the teachings sent down to them. How is it possible that the teachings of Allah could be obliterated from memory?" They did not raise these objections for the sake of arriving at the truth but for the sake of creating mischief. Allah answers their objections thus: "I am the Sovereign and My powers are unlimited. I can repeal any order of Mine or allow it to be forgotten, but I substitute for it something that serves the same purpose better or at least equally well."

Ibn Kathir
.......

Ibn Jarir then said, "Although Allah directed His statement indicating His greatness towards His Prophet, He also rejected the lies of the Jews who denied that the rulings of the Torah could undergo abrogation.

The Jews also denied the prophethood of Jesus and Muhammad, because of their dislike for what they brought from Allah, such as changing some rulings of the Torah, as Allah commanded.

Allah thus proclaimed to the Jews that He owns the heavens and earth and also all authority in them. Further, the subjects in Allah's kingdom are His creation, and they are required to hear and obey His commands and prohibitions. Allah has full authority to command the creation as He wills, forbidding them from what He wills, abrogate what He wills, uphold what He wills, and decide whatever commandments and prohibitions He wills.''
Ibn Kathir) say that the Jews' dismissal of the occurrence of the abrogation is only a case of their disbelief and rebellion. The sound mind does not deny that there could be a abrogation in Allah's commandments, for He decides what He wills, just as He does what He wills.

Further, abrogation occurred in previous Books and Law. For instance, Allah allowed Adam to marry his daughters to his sons and then later forbade this practice. Allah also allowed Nuh to eat from all kinds of animals after they left the ark, then prohibited eating some types of foods. Further, marrying two sisters to one man was allowed for Israel and his children, but Allah prohibited this practice later in the Torah. Allah commanded Abraham to slaughter his son, then repealed that command before it was implemented. Also, Allah commanded the Children of Israel to kill those who worshipped the calf and then repealed that command, so that the Children of Israel were not all exterminated (I know your Bible has a horrid difference which appears partial in sparing Aaron though our view of this differs in Islam).

There are many other instances that the Jews admit have occurred, yet they ignore them. Also, it is a well-known fact that their Books foretold about Muhammad and contained the command to follow him. These texts, in their Books, indicate that the Jews were required to follow the Prophet Muhammad and that no good deed would be accepted from them, unless it conformed to Muhammad's Law. The Prophet brought another Book, - the Qur'an -, which is the last revelation from Allah.


You shared something where the Jews tried to hide the punishment of death to the fornicator by covering it until a Jewish companion of Muhammad pbuh exposed them?

Does Quran 24:2 As for female and male fornicators, give each of them one hundred lashes,and do not let pity for them make you lenient in ˹enforcing˺ the law of Allah, if you ˹truly˺ believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a number of believers witness their punishment.

not abolish what is said in the Torah/Talmud followed by the Jews on stoning to death the fornicator?


In any case it has been another wasteful encounter with you. Hop on to your next thrill

If I get you correctly, your claim is that Allah caused some of the verses of the Qur'an to be forgotten by abrogation.


BUT, this is LOGICALLY fallacious: why?
Let me show you!

Premise of Logic:
1. The Qur'an is eternal as an attribute of Allah
2. The Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise
3. Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims
4. Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an. Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45

Is any of these claims of Islam above wrong or false?

Inference from Premise
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, non of the verses can be abrogated from the text.
Note: the principle of abrogation is incompatible with the concept of the Qur'an being eternal.
2. If the Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise AND the Qur'an is eternal, then non of the verses can be abrogated from its text.
3. If Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and it was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims BUT some verses were forgotten , then the Qur'an of Mohammed is not identical to Kitab Allah in paradise.
Note: the preservation of the Qur'an involves both memorization and written texts, and discrepancies between these might impact the claim of exact replication.
4. If Allah guarantees that Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an according to Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45 then no verse of the Qur'an can be forgotten except the Qur'an contradicted itself

Logical Conclusions:
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, and if the Qur'an of Muhammad is indeed an exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise, and if Muhammad could not forget the Qur'an, then it follows that no verses should be lost or abrogated.
2. If some verses are reported as forgotten or abrogated, it would suggest inconsistencies either in the understanding of eternal preservation or in the process of transmission, contradicting the claim of the Qur'an being an exact and eternal copy of the Kitab Allah.





Tell me Truthfully:
Which of the eternal attributes of Allah change with time?




It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.

TenQ:
If I get you correctly, your claim is that Allah caused some of the verses of the Qur'an to be forgotten by abrogation.


BUT, this is LOGICALLY fallacious: why?
Let me show you!

Premise of Logic:
1. The Qur'an is eternal as an attribute of Allah
2. The Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise
3. Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims
4. Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an. Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45

Is any of these claims of Islam above wrong or false?

Inference from Premise
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, non of the verses can be abrogated from the text.
Note: the principle of abrogation is incompatible with the concept of the Qur'an being eternal.
2. If the Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise AND the Qur'an is eternal, then non of the verses can be abrogated from its text.
3. If Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and it was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims BUT some verses were forgotten , then the Qur'an of Mohammed is not identical to Kitab Allah in paradise.
Note: the preservation of the Qur'an involves both memorization and written texts, and discrepancies between these might impact the claim of exact replication.
4. If Allah guarantees that Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an according to Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45 then no verse of the Qur'an can be forgotten except the Qur'an contradicted itself

Logical Conclusions:
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, and if the Qur'an of Muhammad is indeed an exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise, and if Muhammad could not forget the Qur'an, then it follows that no verses should be lost or abrogated.
2. If some verses are reported as forgotten or abrogated, it would suggest inconsistencies either in the understanding of eternal preservation or in the process of transmission, contradicting the claim of the Qur'an being an exact and eternal copy of the Kitab Allah.





Tell me Truthfully:
Which of the eternal attributes of Allah change with time?




It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsrSQeoJdso?si=aCbfhM6IiZ7pFl9T

Obviously you didn't watch 1.10-1.16 or thereabout here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emKUWyDrqvQ?si=AYC84NetkeBMk-Tr


It's a new week. Get on with it.

Repeating your preferred narrative doesn't change anything my friend: Fault the logic and arrive at a different conclusion from mine.

If I repeat from now till eternity that Obafemi Awolowo was a President of the Federal republic of Nigeria does not make it true UNLESS I can fault correctly the opposing LOGIC!

It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.

Ohyoudidnt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsrSQeoJdso?si=aCbfhM6IiZ7pFl9T

Obviously you didn't watch 1.10-1.16 or thereabout here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emKUWyDrqvQ?si=AYC84NetkeBMk-Tr


It's a new week. Get on with it.

AGAIN HERE IS THE LOGICAL PROOF

If I get you correctly, your claim is that Allah caused some of the verses of the Qur'an to be forgotten by abrogation.


BUT, this is LOGICALLY fallacious: why?
Let me show you!

Premise of Logic:
1. The Qur'an is eternal as an attribute of Allah
2. The Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise
3. Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims
4. Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an. Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45

Is any of these claims of Islam above wrong or false?

Inference from Premise
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, non of the verses can be abrogated from the text.
Note: the principle of abrogation is incompatible with the concept of the Qur'an being eternal.
2. If the Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise AND the Qur'an is eternal, then non of the verses can be abrogated from its text.
3. If Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and it was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims BUT some verses were forgotten , then the Qur'an of Mohammed is not identical to Kitab Allah in paradise.
Note: the preservation of the Qur'an involves both memorization and written texts, and discrepancies between these might impact the claim of exact replication.
4. If Allah guarantees that Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an according to Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45 then no verse of the Qur'an can be forgotten except the Qur'an contradicted itself

Logical Conclusions:
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, and if the Qur'an of Muhammad is indeed an exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise, and if Muhammad could not forget the Qur'an, then it follows that no verses should be lost or abrogated.
2. If some verses are reported as forgotten or abrogated, it would suggest inconsistencies either in the understanding of eternal preservation or in the process of transmission, contradicting the claim of the Qur'an being an exact and eternal copy of the Kitab Allah.





Tell me Truthfully:
Which of the eternal attributes of Allah change with time?




It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.

TenQ:
Repeating your preferred narrative doesn't change anything my friend: Fault the logic and arrive at a different conclusion from mine.

If I repeat from now till eternity that Obafemi Awolowo was a President of the Federal republic of Nigeria does not make it true UNLESS I can fault correctly the opposing LOGIC!

It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.



AGAIN HERE IS THE LOGICAL PROOF

If I get you correctly, your claim is that Allah caused some of the verses of the Qur'an to be forgotten by abrogation.


BUT, this is LOGICALLY fallacious: why?
Let me show you!

Premise of Logic:
1. The Qur'an is eternal as an attribute of Allah
2. The Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise
3. Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims
4. Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an. Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45

Is any of these claims of Islam above wrong or false?

Inference from Premise
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, non of the verses can be abrogated from the text.
Note: the principle of abrogation is incompatible with the concept of the Qur'an being eternal.
2. If the Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise AND the Qur'an is eternal, then non of the verses can be abrogated from its text.
3. If Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and it was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims BUT some verses were forgotten , then the Qur'an of Mohammed is not identical to Kitab Allah in paradise.
Note: the preservation of the Qur'an involves both memorization and written texts, and discrepancies between these might impact the claim of exact replication.
4. If Allah guarantees that Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an according to Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45 then no verse of the Qur'an can be forgotten except the Qur'an contradicted itself

Logical Conclusions:
1. If the Qur'an is eternal, and if the Qur'an of Muhammad is indeed an exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise, and if Muhammad could not forget the Qur'an, then it follows that no verses should be lost or abrogated.
2. If some verses are reported as forgotten or abrogated, it would suggest inconsistencies either in the understanding of eternal preservation or in the process of transmission, contradicting the claim of the Qur'an being an exact and eternal copy of the Kitab Allah.





Tell me Truthfully:
Which of the eternal attributes of Allah change with time?




It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.

It truly is my undoing to try to discuss with you as the lengths you go to push down your false version of the truth is beyond measure.

Obafemu Awolowo of blessed memory did not win the presidential election however the results were reached.

Awolowo had challenged the declaration of Shagari as president saying although Shagari had the highest votes, winning in 12 states did not meet the requirement of two third of 19 states which ought to have been rounded up to 13 as a state could not be fractionalized.

The Supreme Court however upheld Chief Richard Akinjide’s submission that since Shagari had two third of the votes cast in the 13th state, which was Kano, his 12 two third majority votes was enough for him to be declared the winner.
Shehu Shagari scored 5,688,857 votes to Obafemi Awolowo score of 4,916,651, in total.

In finality whoever had the highest votes was declared winner. This is far different from the case of MKO Abiola where the election was annulled. Was there an official declaration of the results by then NEC?

Mr Falsehood and misleading attributes of Allah. You have now shifted from forcing your concept of the holy spirit attribute of Allah? Why so desperate?


The Quran is not considered an attribute of Allah in the same way His divine attributes are described. The Quran is the literal word of Allah revealed to the Prophet Muhammad through Jibree. It is a manifestation of Allah's speech and wisdom, a guidance for humanity, and a source of light and mercy. Were previous books like the Torah given to Moses not like this?

While the Quran is not an attribute of Allah in the theological sense, it is a divine revelation that reflects the beauty, perfection, and wisdom of Allah. Muslims hold the Quran in the highest esteem and consider it the ultimate source of guidance and truth. The Quran is to be recited, understood, and implemented in the lives of believers to attain closeness to Allah and success in this world and the Hereafter.

You now appear to confuse Al-Lawh al-Mahfuz, often translated as the Preserved Tablet which is a significant concept in Islamic theology. It refers to a celestial tablet that contains the divine decrees and knowledge of all that has happened and will happen until the Day of Judgment.

Is it restricted to recording only things that are termed good that have happened? Was the flood of Noah, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah the community of Lot essentially a good thing? Is it in the record or not?

The concept of al-Lawh al-Mahfuz extends beyond just a record of events; it also includes the divine revelations given to prophets throughout history.


Did Jesus permit certain things to the Israelites that were previously forbidden? Something to consider is working on the sabath day, eating with gentiles/sinners, restriction on food. I may not agree with everything stated in your Bible.

I will not bother with your twisted understanding of the Quran verses as you wriggle and misinterpret too much. Reread the verses you presented perhaps you presented them in error.

Someone insistent in attributes of God not changing should first address the difference in the concept of God from the old to the new testament especially worshipping another instead of him.

The concept of God in the Old Testament is centered around the idea of a single, all-powerful, and all-knowing deity who created the universe and governs it.

While the Old Testament portrays God as a single, all-powerful deity, the New Testament presents a more complex and nuanced understanding of God, with a focus on the person of Jesus Christ. The worship of Jesus as God is a central theme in the New Testament, and has significant implications for Christian theology and practice.

See where significant changes in attributes occur?


I conclude it is all a huge joke to you. Keep laughing.

Ohyoudidnt:
It truly is my undoing to try to discuss with you as the lengths you go to push down your false version of the truth is beyond measure.

Obafemu Awolowo of blessed memory did not win the presidential election however the results were reached.

Awolowo had challenged the declaration of Shagari as president saying although Shagari had the highest votes, winning in 12 states did not meet the requirement of two third of 19 states which ought to have been rounded up to 13 as a state could not be fractionalized.

The Supreme Court however upheld Chief Richard Akinjide’s submission that since Shagari had two third of the votes cast in the 13th state, which was Kano, his 12 two third majority votes was enough for him to be declared the winner.
Shehu Shagari scored 5,688,857 votes to Obafemi Awolowo score of 4,916,651, in total.

In finality whoever had the highest votes was declared winner. This is far different from the case of MKO Abiola where the election was annulled. Was there an official declaration of the results by then NEC?

This exercise you just did shows that one can LOGICALLY arrive at the truth by following REASON and making deductions out of these reasons.

It is irrelevant if I repeat 1000 times that Obafemi Awolowo was the president of Nigeria if I cannot disprove the points you itemized.

Unfortunately, this is what you are doing.
You desperately want the standard islamic narrative to be true that you are willing NOT to apply LOGIC and SENSE to the glaring EVIDENCES presented to you.

Ohyoudidnt:
Mr Falsehood and misleading attributes of Allah. You have now shifted from forcing your concept of the holy spirit attribute of Allah? Why so desperate?

The Quran is not considered an attribute of Allah in the same way His divine attributes are described. The Quran is the literal word of Allah revealed to the Prophet Muhammad through Jibree. It is a manifestation of Allah's speech and wisdom, a guidance for humanity, and a source of light and mercy. Were previous books like the Torah given to Moses not like this?

While the Quran is not an attribute of Allah in the theological sense, it is a divine revelation that reflects the beauty, perfection, and wisdom of Allah. Muslims hold the Quran in the highest esteem and consider it the ultimate source of guidance and truth. The Quran is to be recited, understood, and implemented in the lives of believers to attain closeness to Allah and success in this world and the Hereafter.

You now appear to confuse Al-Lawh al-Mahfuz, often translated as the Preserved Tablet which is a significant concept in Islamic theology. It refers to a celestial tablet that contains the divine decrees and knowledge of all that has happened and will happen until the Day of Judgment.

Is it restricted to recording only things that are termed good that have happened? Was the flood of Noah, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah the community of Lot essentially a good thing? Is it in the record or not?

Is your notion that
1. The Qur'an is not eternal
And
2. The Qur'an is not an attribute of Allah
And
3. The Qur'an is created

This is to help you because it seems you don't know your religion

1. The Qur'an is eternal
Sahih Muslim 2655: “The Qur'an was with Allah before the creation of the heavens and the earth.”

2. Quran is an attribute of Allah
Ibn Qudamah in "al-Mughni": Discusses the Qur'an as an eternal attribute of Allah.
Islamic Creed (Aqidah): Many theological works affirm that the Qur'an is an attribute of Allah, consistent with the belief that Allah’s attributes are eternal.

3. The Qur'an is uncreated

Sahih al-Bukhari 6988: “The Qur'an is the speech of Allah, which is not created.”

Is this Quote untrue?

Ohyoudidnt:
The concept of al-Lawh al-Mahfuz extends beyond just a record of events; it also includes the divine revelations given to prophets throughout history.


Did Jesus permit certain things to the Israelites that were previously forbidden? Something to consider is working on the sabath day, eating with gentiles/sinners, restriction on food. I may not agree with everything stated in your Bible.

When Jesus or any prophet interpret the law, he does not delete the old law. He only updates the law.

Is it untrue that Islamic abrogation involves
1. Deleting verses from the Qur'an but not in ruling (e.g. Stoning of Adulterers)
2. Deleting verses from the Qur'an and in ruling (e.g. Breastfeeding of Adults)
2. Abrogation without deletion (eg. The verse on Mutah)

Ohyoudidnt:
I will not bother with your twisted understanding of the Quran verses as you wriggle and misinterpret too much. Reread the verses you presented perhaps you presented them in error.

Someone insistent in attributes of God not changing should first address the difference in the concept of God from the old to the new testament especially worshipping another instead of him.

The concept of God in the Old Testament is centered around the idea of a single, all-powerful, and all-knowing deity who created the universe and governs it.

While the Old Testament portrays God as a single, all-powerful deity, the New Testament presents a more complex and nuanced understanding of God, with a focus on the person of Jesus Christ. The worship of Jesus as God is a central theme in the New Testament, and has significant implications for Christian theology and practice.

See where significant changes in attributes occur?


I conclude it is all a huge joke to you. Keep laughing.

I presume you are pained just because the LOGIC of Islam has failed you.
FYI:
-In the Old Testament, God YHWH sometimes appeared as a physical Being
-In the Old Testament, God YHWH is a Spirit
-In the Old Testament, God YHWH is the Father in heaven

There is no difference between the Old Testament description of God AND the New Testament for YHWH is ONE except that this nature of God is given a nomenclature by Christians as Trinity.





All these you flee from answering questions that betray the LIES you chose to believe?


If you are pained, I will allow you to escape and nurse your wounds: after all, the TRUTH sometimes hurt.

TenQ:
This exercise you just did shows that one can LOGICALLY arrive at the truth by following REASON and making deductions out of these reasons.

It is irrelevant if I repeat 1000 times that Obafemi Awolowo was the president of Nigeria if I cannot disprove the points you itemized.

Unfortunately, this is what you are doing.
You desperately want the standard islamic narrative to be true that you are willing NOT to apply LOGIC and SENSE to the glaring EVIDENCES presented to you.



Is your notion that
1. The Qur'an is not eternal
And
2. The Qur'an is not an attribute of Allah
And
3. The Qur'an is created

Is this Quote untrue?





When Jesus or any prophet interpret the law, he does not delete the old law. He only updates the law.

Is it untrue that Islamic abrogation involves
1. Deleting verses from the Qur'an but not in ruling (e.g. Stoning of Adulterers)
2. Deleting verses from the Qur'an and in ruling (e.g. Breastfeeding of Adults)
2. Abrogation without deletion (eg. The verse on Mutah)




I presume you are pained just because the LOGIC of Islam has failed you.
FYI:
-In the Old Testament, God YHWH sometimes appeared as a physical Being
-In the Old Testament, God YHWH is a Spirit
-In the Old Testament, God YHWH is the Father in heaven

There is no difference between the Old Testament description of God AND the New Testament for YHWH is ONE except that this nature of God is given a nomenclature by Christians as Trinity.





All these you flee from answering questions that betray the LIES you chose to believe?


If you are pained, I will allow you to escape and nurse your wounds: after all, the TRUTH sometimes hurt.

Is it a lie that people view Awolowo as the actual winner of the election as Ojukwu is on record to have said Awolowo is the best president Nigeria never had?

The absolute truth of the Quran is above the Hadith.


- The Quran represents God's final message to humanity without error or contradiction.
- While Hadith enriches understanding and practice within Islam, it remains subordinate to the teachings found in the Quran.

Scholars assess Hadith based on their chains of narration (isnad) and content (matn). Thus, not all Hadith carry equal weight or authority.

Any opinion derived from Hadith must align with what is stated in the Quran. If there is a conflict between a particular Hadith and a clear verse from the Quran, the latter takes priority.

How can you depend on what is not absolutely correct to arrive at a truthful decision?

In the words of my brother from Syria the hadith is a often a tool of deception derived by the satans and unbelievers to corrupt the actual directive of Allah.

It is a common tool in your hands or are your questions not derived mainly from the hadith?


When Moses saw a burning bush was the bush actually burning?
You obviously do not understand the language you think your God communicates with you through.

Ohyoudidnt:
Is it a lie that people view Awolowo as the actual winner of the election as Ojukwu is on record to have said Awolowo is the best president Nigeria never had?

I don't dispute that. I only said that one can logically defeat anyone who insists and is repeatedly saying that Obafemi Awolowo was a President of Nigeria at any time by bringing EVIDENCES and using LOGICAL inferences.

This was what I did with you.

Ohyoudidnt:
The absolute truth of the Quran is above the Hadith.

No one disputes that with you Muslims. However, Allah says you should also obey Mohammed.
Moreover, these are your books you claim just like the Qur'an that it has reliable ISNAD and you have selected the Sahih hadits to narrate.

Ohyoudidnt:
- The Quran represents God's final message to humanity without error or contradiction.
- While Hadith enriches understanding and practice within Islam, it remains subordinate to the teachings found in the Quran.

Scholars assess Hadith based on their chains of narration (isnad) and content (matn). Thus, not all Hadith carry equal weight or authority.

Any opinion derived from Hadith must align with what is stated in the Quran. If there is a conflict between a particular Hadith and a clear verse from the Quran, the latter takes priority.

The Quran is useless without the Hadiths and the Tafsirs.
The Qur'an is a bundle of contradictions, errors and Allah gives commands that is unbefitting for YHWH God of Israel: this is why the Qur'an cannot be the word of God.

Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians?

Ohyoudidnt:
How can you depend on what is not absolutely correct to arrive at a truthful decision?

In the words of my brother from Syria the hadith is a often a tool of deception derived by the satans and unbelievers to corrupt the actual directive of Allah.

It is a common tool in your hands or are your questions not derived mainly from the hadith?

It seems you are becoming a Qur'an only Muslim.
Don't forget that your religion consists of obeying Allah AND Mohammed.

Ohyoudidnt:
When Moses saw a burning bush was the bush actually burning?
You obviously do not understand the language you think your God communicates with you through.

LOL: According to the Bible, the Fire was Burning but the Bush was not consumed by the fire. This was what attracted Moses to this bush

Qur'an 27:8-10
8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'"
9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'"
10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"

Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?

TenQ:
I don't dispute that. I only said that one can logically defeat anyone who insists and is repeatedly saying that Obafemi Awolowo was a President of Nigeria at any time by bringing EVIDENCES and using LOGICAL inferences.

This was what I did with you.



No one disputes that with you Muslims. However, Allah says you should also obey Mohammed.
Moreover, these are your books you claim just like the Qur'an that it has reliable ISNAD and you have selected the Sahih hadits to narrate.


The Quran is useless without the Hadiths and the Tafsirs.
The Qur'an is a bundle of contradictions, errors and Allah gives commands that is unbefitting for YHWH God of Israel: this is why the Qur'an cannot be the word of God.

Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians?



It seems you are becoming a Qur'an only Muslim.
Don't forget that your religion consists of obeying Allah AND Mohammed.



LOL: According to the Bible, the Fire was Burning but the Bush was not consumed by the fire. This was what attracted Moses to this bush

Qur'an 27:8-10
8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'"
9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'"
10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"

Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?

I see you don't get the point.

When something burns is it consumed?
Using charcoal, wood or gas stove are these fuels consumed?

The question is was the bush actually burning?

Then we need some clarity was it God or an angel or God through the angel that spoke to Moses at the burning bush according to the Bible?

Exodus 3:4
When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”

(Also is the lord different from God?)

Exodus 3:2
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Now the Angel appears in the flame out of the midst of the bush yet God called to him from within the bush.

Is it the Angel or God in the bush that spoke to Moses?

Who exactly says
Exodus 3:
5 Do not come any closer, God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.

6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

Remember Exodus 3:2 says the Angel appears to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush.

Or is this a case of Jacob wrestling with God or an angel in Genesis 32:22-32?

Is Angel equal to God?

Exegesis or Hadith may vary on the elucidation of a Quran verse but does the verse itself vary?

Ohyoudidnt:
I see you don't get the point.

When something burns is it consumed?
Using charcoal, wood or gas stove are these fuels consumed?

The question is was the bush actually burning?

Your question is ridiculously naive.
When someone is thrown into the Fire of Hell, why doesnt he die?

You seem to forget that the Creator of everything can command to forbid the power of consumption of a Fire?
Are you saying that Allah cannot forbid a fire from burning someone?
It seems you have never read Quran 21:69

The Bush wasn't Burning Because God forbid the fire from consuming the bush as He was in the Fire as the one known as "The Angel of the Lord". YHWH often comes down in the Old Testament as a MAN or as an ANGEL known as the Angel of the Lord BECAUSE The Angel SPEAK AS GOD and not FOR GOD as an ordinary Angel.
Did God appear to Abraham as a Man in the Bible?
Exactly like that with the personage of "The Angel of the Lord"

Genesis 16:7–14. The angel of the Lord appears to Hagar. The angel speaks as God himself in the first person, and in verse 13 Hagar identifies "the LORD that spoke to her" as "The God Who sees".
Genesis 22:11–15. The angel of the Lord appears to Abraham and refers to himself as God in the first person.
Exodus 3:2–4. The angel of the Lord appears to Moses in a flame in verse 2, and God speaks to Moses from the flame in verse 4, both instances referring to himself in the first person, the text conflates the two as one.
Numbers 22:22–38. The angel of the Lord meets the prophet Balaam on the road. In verse 38, Balaam identifies the angel who spoke to him as God.
Judges 2:1–3. The angel of the Lord appears to Israel.
Judges 6:11–23. The angel of the Lord appears to Gideon, and in verse 22 Gideon fears for his life because he has seen the angel of the Lord face to face, which is similar to when others in the Tanakh (Old Testament) fear they will die because they have seen God.
Judges 13:3–22. The angel of the Lord appears to Manoah and his wife and, in verse 16, tells them to offer to the LORD if they are to make an offering ("And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah [...] if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.". Later Manoah thought he and his wife will die for they "have seen God"
Zechariah 1:12. The angel of the Lord pleads with the Lord to have mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah.
Zechariah 3:4. The angel of the Lord takes away the sin of the high priest Joshua.

Note: YHWH can enter His Creations without ceasing to be God.

Now will you answer my Questions that you escaped answering (and the same kind of response you give is how I will use to respond to your further question)
Question:
Qur'an 27:8-10
8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'"
9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'"
10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"

1. Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?
2. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?

Ohyoudidnt:
Then we need some clarity was it God or an angel or God through the angel that spoke to Moses at the burning bush according to the Bible?
Exodus 3:4
When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”

(Also is the lord different from God?)

God was the One in the Fire appearing as a personage called "The Angel of the LORD" by Moses.
LORD in capital letters is literally YHWH
Thus LORD is not different from God

3. In Islam, is there a difference between Allah and Your Lord?

Ohyoudidnt:
Exodus 3:2
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Now the Angel appears in the flame out of the midst of the bush yet God called to him from within the bush.

Is it the Angel or God in the bush that spoke to Moses?

Who exactly says
Exodus 3:
5 Do not come any closer, God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.

6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

Remember Exodus 3:2 says the Angel appears to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush.

Or is this a case of Jacob wrestling with God or an angel in Genesis 32:22-32?

Is Angel equal to God?

Exegesis or Hadith may vary on the elucidation of a Quran verse but does the verse itself vary?

You are repeating the Question.
A normal Angel is NOT God BUT God can take the form of an Angel and He would remain GOD!
The personage called the Angel of the LORD is God appearing in the form of an Angel. The Angel does not speak like a normal Angel but speaks in FIRST PERSON as God.

Question:
According to
Sahih al-Bukhari 7439
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
We said, "O Allah's Messenger! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)."
....Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation.


Question
4. Tell me, when Allah came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah ?
5. What is your comment on this: Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians?
6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah?


I have answered you questions with enough verses from the Old Testament for you to confirm even though you did not answer mine.
NOW,
I have put my major questions in RED so that you wouldn't claim not to see them!

TenQ:
Your question is ridiculously naive.
When someone is thrown into the Fire of Hell, why doesnt he die?

You seem to forget that the Creator of everything can command to forbid the power of consumption of a Fire?
Are you saying that Allah cannot forbid a fire from burning someone?
It seems you have never read Quran 21:69

The Bush wasn't Burning Because God forbid the fire from consuming the bush as He was in the Fire as the one known as "The Angel of the Lord". YHWH often comes down in the Old Testament as a MAN or as an ANGEL known as the Angel of the Lord BECAUSE The Angel SPEAK AS GOD and not as an ordinary Angel.
Did God appear to Abraham as a Man in the Bible?
Exactly like that with the personage of "The Angel of the Lord"

YHWH can enter His Creations without ceasing to be God.

Now will you answer my Questions that you escaped answering (and the same kind of response you give is how I will use to respond to your further question)
Question:
Qur'an 27:8-10
8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'"
9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'"
10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"

1. Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?
2. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?



God was the One in the Fire appearing as a personage called "The Angel of the LORD" by Moses.
LORD in capital letters is literally YHWH
Thus LORD is not different from God

3. In Islam, is there a difference between Allah and Your Lord?


You are repeating the Question.
A normal Angel is NOT God BUT God can take the form of an Angel and He would remain GOD!
The personage called the Angel of the LORD is God appearing in the form of an Angel. The Angel does not speak like a normal Angel but speaks in FIRST PERSON as God.

Question:
According to
Sahih al-Bukhari 7439
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
We said, "O Allah's Messenger! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)."
....Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation.


Question
4. Tell me, when Allah came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah ?
5. What is your comment on this: Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians?
6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah?


I have answered you questions with enough verses from the Old Testament for you to confirm even though you did not answer mine.
NOW,
I have put my major questions in RED so that you wouldn't claim not to see them!

It is very obvious that the fire seen by Moses is not in hell or are you now saying Moses was in hell?

The lengths you go to in a failed bid to make a point. Where is it stated in the Bible or Quran that God or Allah forbade the fire from burning the bush?

You have just manufactured and imputed your own exegesis isn't it?

You see why the hadith you fondly love and refer to can have problems?

Can you review places where God spoke directly to man in your Bible against the confusion narrated that isn't clear if God or the Angel is speaking?

Where does the Bible categorically say God takes the form of an angel to speak to man?

You make reference to a normal angel and I wonder if there's an abnormal one?

The essence of the fire and the encounter of God with Moses appears not properly understood by you.

The fire or light and the spoken words of Allah are all his manifestation. The Quran doesn't share the confusion of putting an angel in the mix.

You pretend not to have seen my question of when Ubay ibn Ka'b died in relation to the standardisation of the Quran by Uthman. Can you refer and answer?

Has your God not spoken to people directly in the Bible without any intermediaries before and after Moses?

Your following questions are about Hadith and I have raised concerns about the variability of hadith narrations.

I don't know why you keep referring me to YHWH when Allah doesn't say he and YHWH are the same.

Ohyoudidnt:
It is very obvious that the fire seen by Moses is not in hell or are you now saying Moses was in hell?

The lengths you go to in a failed bid to make a point. Where is it stated in the Bible or Quran that God or Allah forbade the fire from burning the bush?

You have just manufactured and imputed your own exegesis isn't it?

You see why the hadith you fondly love and refer to can have problems?

Can you review places where God spoke directly to man in your Bible against the confusion narrated that isn't clear if God or the Angel is speaking?

Where does the Bible categorically say God takes the form of an angel to speak to man?

You make reference to a normal angel and I wonder if there's an abnormal one?

The essence of the fire and the encounter of God with Moses appears not properly understood by you.

The fire or light and the spoken words of Allah are all his manifestation. The Quran doesn't share the confusion of putting an angel in the mix.

You pretend not to have seen my question of when Ubay ibn Ka'b died in relation to the standardisation of the Quran by Uthman. Can you refer and answer?

Has your God not spoken to people directly in the Bible without any intermediaries before and after Moses?

Your following questions are about Hadith and I have raised concerns about the variability of hadith narrations.

I don't know why you keep referring me to YHWH when Allah doesn't say he and YHWH are the same.

Give answers to my Questions before I take you seriously.
Otherwise, I assume this is an escapist manoeuvre by you.
It is understandable if you avoid answering my questions as I answered yours in detail afterall, you are a Muslim: its not any surprise

Again:
Here is the post if you are not scared


Your question is ridiculously naive.
When someone is thrown into the Fire of Hell, why doesnt he die?

You seem to forget that the Creator of everything can command to forbid the power of consumption of a Fire?
Are you saying that Allah cannot forbid a fire from burning someone?
It seems you have never read Quran 21:69

The Bush wasn't Burning Because God forbid the fire from consuming the bush as He was in the Fire as the one known as "The Angel of the Lord". YHWH often comes down in the Old Testament as a MAN or as an ANGEL known as the Angel of the Lord BECAUSE The Angel SPEAK AS GOD and not FOR GOD as an ordinary Angel.
Did God appear to Abraham as a Man in the Bible?
Exactly like that with the personage of "The Angel of the Lord"

Note: YHWH can enter His Creations without ceasing to be God.

Now will you answer my Questions that you escaped answering (and the same kind of response you give is how I will use to respond to your further question)
Question:
Qur'an 27:8-10
8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'"
9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'"
10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"

1. Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?
2. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?



God was the One in the Fire appearing as a personage called "The Angel of the LORD" by Moses.
LORD in capital letters is literally YHWH
Thus LORD is not different from God

3. In Islam, is there a difference between Allah and Your Lord?


You are repeating the Question.
A normal Angel is NOT God BUT God can take the form of an Angel and He would remain GOD!
The personage called the Angel of the LORD is God appearing in the form of an Angel. The Angel does not speak like a normal Angel but speaks in FIRST PERSON as God.

Question:
According to
Sahih al-Bukhari 7439
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
We said, "O Allah's Messenger! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)."
....Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation.


Question
4. Tell me, when Allah came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah ?
5. What is your comment on this: Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians?
6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah?


I have answered you questions with enough verses from the Old Testament for you to confirm even though you did not answer mine.
NOW,
I have put my major questions in RED so that you wouldn't claim not to see them!

Keeping turning a blind eye to answered.

Allah was not physically present in the fire. When Allah spoke to Musa (AS) at the burning bush, it was through a miraculous means. The fire was a sign from Allah, and the voice came from Him, but His actual presence was not in the fire.

You obviously don't know the language of the scripture. This is what I highlighted earlier on

TenQ:
Give answers to my Questions before I take you seriously.
Otherwise, I assume this is an escapist manoeuvre by you.
It is understandable if you avoid answering my questions as I answered yours in detail afterall, you are a Muslim: its not any surprise

Again:
Here is the post if you are not scared


Your question is ridiculously naive.
When someone is thrown into the Fire of Hell, why doesnt he die?

You seem to forget that the Creator of everything can command to forbid the power of consumption of a Fire?
Are you saying that Allah cannot forbid a fire from burning someone?
It seems you have never read Quran 21:69

The Bush wasn't Burning Because God forbid the fire from consuming the bush as He was in the Fire as the one known as "The Angel of the Lord". YHWH often comes down in the Old Testament as a MAN or as an ANGEL known as the Angel of the Lord BECAUSE The Angel SPEAK AS GOD and not FOR GOD as an ordinary Angel.
Did God appear to Abraham as a Man in the Bible?
Exactly like that with the personage of "The Angel of the Lord"

Note: YHWH can enter His Creations without ceasing to be God.

Now will you answer my Questions that you escaped answering (and the same kind of response you give is how I will use to respond to your further question)
Question:
Qur'an 27:8-10
8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'"
9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'"
10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"

1. Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?
2. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?



God was the One in the Fire appearing as a personage called "The Angel of the LORD" by Moses.
LORD in capital letters is literally YHWH
Thus LORD is not different from God

3. In Islam, is there a difference between Allah and Your Lord?


You are repeating the Question.
A normal Angel is NOT God BUT God can take the form of an Angel and He would remain GOD!
The personage called the Angel of the LORD is God appearing in the form of an Angel. The Angel does not speak like a normal Angel but speaks in FIRST PERSON as God.

Question:
According to
Sahih al-Bukhari 7439
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
We said, "O Allah's Messenger! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)."
....Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation.


Question
4. Tell me, when Allah came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah ?
5. What is your comment on this: Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians?
6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah?


I have answered you questions with enough verses from the Old Testament for you to confirm even though you did not answer mine.
NOW,
I have put my major questions in RED so that you wouldn't claim not to see them!

You keep forcing this invitation to your personal hadith confusion.

Does Allah need to descend to the lowest heaven according to the hadith you quote to hear prayers when he already says in the Quran that:

Quran 2:186 And when My servants ask you concerning Me, indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me.


and

Quran 50:16 And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein


Do you not see how you show the hadith confuses you on what Allah's relation with his creation Is?


Obviously you cannot assuredly answer the question on Ubay and are parrying in your characteristic time wasting nature.


What verb did you use to justify what the Jews did in trying to hide the truth of what the Thalmud prescribed for the punishment of fornication again?

Your lie remains a lie no matter how you make it up.

Ohyoudidnt:
Keeping turning a blind eye to answered.

Allah was not physically present in the fire. When Allah spoke to Musa (AS) at the burning bush, it was through a miraculous means. The fire was a sign from Allah, and the voice came from Him, but His actual presence was not in the fire.

You obviously don't know the language of the scripture. This is what I highlighted earlier on


You keep forcing this invitation to your personal hadith confusion.

Does Allah need to descend to the lowest heaven according to the hadith you quote to hear prayers when he already says in the Quran that:

Quran 2:186 And when My servants ask you concerning Me, indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me.


and

Quran 50:16 And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein


Do you not see how you show the hadith confuses you on what Allah's relation with his creation Is?


Obviously you cannot assuredly answer the question on Ubay and are parrying in your characteristic time wasting nature.


What verb did you use to justify what the Jews did in trying to hide the truth of what the Thalmud prescribed for the punishment of fornication again?

Your lie remains a lie no matter how you make it up.

Repeating falsehood a million times will never make it the truth.

Please except you are surrendering and fleeing, answer my questions

Questions
1. Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?
2. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?
3. In Islam, is there a difference between Allah and Your Lord?
4. Tell me, when Allah came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah?
5. What is your comment on this: Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians?
6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah?



If Islam is the Truth, then truthfully answer the 6 questions above.




Like said earlier:
Repeating Falsehood a million times will not convert it into the TRUTH

TenQ:
Repeating falsehood a million times will never make it the truth.

Please except you are surrendering and fleeing, answer my questions

Questions
1. Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?
2. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?
3. In Islam, is there a difference between Allah and Your Lord?
4. Tell me, when Allah came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah?
5. What is your comment on this: Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians?
6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah?



If Islam is the Truth, then truthfully answer the 6 questions above.




Like said earlier:
Repeating Falsehood a million times will not convert it into the TRUTH

It's obvious who is repeating here.
Reforming questions at will.

1. Answered

2. There's no need for that. Show where Allah in his majesty enters his creation if you ask the truth.

3. This depends on context of use. Allah is lord above all things. My question on the lord is to clarify if it is the angel your scripture says appears to Moses in the fire or God that spoke. It seems your God requires a form before he can speak.
Does the scripture say the angel spoke on behalf of God or God is speaking through the angel?

Otherwise it is a waste in Exodus 2 saying There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush.

Was the writer too lazy to add Angel of the lord in the following verses speaking on the directive of the lord?

The importance of the angel where there's already a fire doesn't make sense.

In other verses the significance of the Angel different from God is clear or isn't it?

Zechariah 1:12-21
Then the angel of the Lord said, “O Lord of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant these seventy years?” The Lord answered the angel who was speaking with me with gracious words, comforting words. So the angel who was speaking with me said to me, “Proclaim, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, “I am exceedingly jealous for Jerusalem and Zion.

Luke 1:11-13
And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him. But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John.

Luke 1:26-38
Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.


From the above verses it is clear the writer in Exodus made omissions or was lazy.

4. Allah came to Muslims (past tense?).
When, where?

Guy another obvious lie of yours.

5. What is with noticing style? Is the same language spoken and is it the same people?
Perhaps if these were the case you will have a case.

Do Jews and Christians see YHWH in the same sense?

Is it incorrect that Jews and Christians recognize YHWH as central to their faiths but they do not see Him in precisely the same way due to differing theological frameworks regarding God’s nature.

6. The angel Jibril is often used to deliver messages from Allah to man. Muslims do not pray through Jibril where he now needs to regurgitate our prayers to Alllah.

You seem to be confusing your disputes with Jehovah witness here.


Now tell what you know for certain about the time of death of Ubay with reference to the standardisation of the Quran by Uthman?

Otherwise accept you have been your usual habitual waste of time.

Ohyoudidnt:
It's obvious who is repeating here.
Reforming questions at will.

1. Answered

No sir, you NEVER once answered the Question!

Who was in the Fire according to Qur'an 27:8-10?

I am still waiting!

Ohyoudidnt:
2. There's no need for that. Show where Allah in his majesty enters his creation if you ask the truth.

Was my claim that Allah entered his creation? No!

My question was:
Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?

The Question is to see how powerful Allah is as there are just two possible answers.
1. Yes, Allah CAN enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah!
OR
2. No, Allah CANNOT enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah!


I am still waiting!

Ohyoudidnt:
3. This depends on context of use. Allah is lord above all things. My question on the lord is to clarify if it is the angel your scripture says appears to Moses in the fire or God that spoke. It seems your God requires a form before he can speak.
Does the scripture say the angel spoke on behalf of God or God is speaking through the angel?

Otherwise it is a waste in Exodus 2 saying There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush.

Was the writer too lazy to add Angel of the lord in the following verses speaking on the directive of the lord?

The importance of the angel where there's already a fire doesn't make sense.

In other verses the significance of the Angel different from God is clear or isn't it?

Zechariah 1:12-21
Then the angel of the Lord said, “O Lord of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant these seventy years?” The Lord answered the angel who was speaking with me with gracious words, comforting words. So the angel who was speaking with me said to me, “Proclaim, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, “I am exceedingly jealous for Jerusalem and Zion.

Luke 1:11-13
And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him. But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John.

Luke 1:26-38
Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.


From the above verses it is clear the writer in Exodus made omissions or was lazy.

Is it UNTRUE that YHWH in the Bible can enter His creation without ceasing to be God?

If it is True, then it's non of your business how YHWH appear to any one.

Using your own logic:
From the verses of Qur'an 1:1-7, it is clear the writer of Al-Fathia made omissions or was lazy because he seemed to forget that he is supposed to be Allah speaking.

Why then does he say:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Did he forget that he is Allah?
[All] praise is [due] to Allāh, Lord
of the worlds
Did he forget that he is supposed to be Allah or does he have another Allah?
It is You we worship and You we ask for help
Tell me who Allah was worshipping here?
Guide us to the straight path -
Why does Allah need guidance and guidance from who?

Unfortunately, you have cut your nose by yourself as your claim is that Allah made a mistake or told a lie in saying that he gave the Torah with the Jews!

Ohyoudidnt:
4. Allah came to Muslims (past tense?).
When, where?

Guy another obvious lie of yours.

Let me rephrase as the evidence I supplied didn't help you one bit.

4. Tell me, when Allah SHALL came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah?

Opportunity to shamelessly flee from the Question: here is the Hadith again:

Sahih al-Bukhari 7439
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
We said, "O Allah's Messenger! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)."
....Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation.

Ohyoudidnt:
5. What is with noticing style? Is the same language spoken and is it the same people?
Perhaps if these were the case you will have a case.

It seems you don't know that YHWH doesn't need to feign a sense of importance by repeatedly referring to himself as "majestic PLURAL" all the time unlike Allah?

How is it that Allah seems not to know so many historical details like, who Israel is or who are the people of Lot or the people of Abraham?

What changed?

Ohyoudidnt:
Do Jews and Christians see YHWH in the same sense?

Is it incorrect that Jews and Christians recognize YHWH as central to their faiths but they do not see Him in precisely the same way due to differing theological frameworks regarding God’s nature.

Yes the Jews and Christians see YHWH in the same sense.
The only difference is that Jews do not articulate the doctrine of God as the Father in Heaven, His visible form on Earth and the Holy Spirit UNLIKE the Christian who have articulated the doctrine of God in one word Trinity!

Ohyoudidnt:
6. The angel Jibril is often used to deliver messages from Allah to man. Muslims do not pray through Jibril where he now needs to regurgitate our prayers to Alllah.

You seem to be confusing your disputes with Jehovah witness here.


Now tell what you know for certain about the time of death of Ubay with reference to the standardisation of the Quran by Uthman?

Otherwise accept you have been your usual habitual waste of time.

This is not the question: I did not ask if prayers should be routed through Jibril or not.

The Question was:
6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah?


In case you don't understand, when Jibril came to dictate the Qur'an to Mohammed, did he speak to Mohammed as Allah or spoke to Mohammed as a Messanger of All?



You can see how, simple questions you wouldn't answer. You would rather digress!
So, I deleted the ones for which you made some feeble attempt


The unanswered Questions again
1. Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?

2. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?

4. Tell me, when Allah SHALL came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah when he appeared in a different shape? What happened to the original shape of Allah?

6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah ?

Ohyoudidnt:
Keeping turning a blind eye to answered.

Allah was not physically present in the fire. When Allah spoke to Musa (AS) at the burning bush, it was through a miraculous means. The fire was a sign from Allah, and the voice came from Him, but His actual presence was not in the fire.

You obviously don't know the language of the scripture. This is what I highlighted earlier on

No problem!
If Allah wasn't in the Fire, no problem, the question was

Who was in the Fire according to Qur'an 27:8-10?

Ohyoudidnt:
You keep forcing this invitation to your personal hadith confusion.

Does Allah need to descend to the lowest heaven according to the hadith you quote to hear prayers when he already says in the Quran that:

Quran 2:186 And when My servants ask you concerning Me, indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me.


and

Quran 50:16 And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein


Do you not see how you show the hadith confuses you on what Allah's relation with his creation Is?

You have just proved that the Qur'an and Hadiths are combinations of contradictions.

Is Allah like satan who sleeps in your noses while Allah lodges in the jugular veins of you Muslims?

Allah is near, yet he is above the seventh heaven AND he cannot even enter his creation (earth) without ceasing to be Allah?

Can you not see your contradictions?

Ohyoudidnt:
Obviously you cannot assuredly answer the question on Ubay and are parrying in your characteristic time wasting nature.


What verb did you use to justify what the Jews did in trying to hide the truth of what the Thalmud prescribed for the punishment of fornication again?

Your lie remains a lie no matter how you make it up.

What has Ubay got to do with this post?
Are you dazed?

I cannot answer the question, yet I used a VERB to justify what the Jews did in trying to hide the truth of what the Thalmud prescribed for the punishment of fornication again!?

You are surely confused!?
The purpose of quoting in Nairaland is to avoid this kind of blunders.

TenQ:
No problem!
If Allah wasn't in the Fire, no problem, the question was

Who was in the Fire according to Qur'an 27:8-10?




You have just proved that the Qur'an and Hadiths are combinations of contradictions.

Is Allah like satan who sleeps in your noses while Allah lodges in the jugular veins of you Muslims?

Allah is near, yet he is above the seventh heaven AND he cannot even enter his creation (earth) without ceasing to be Allah?

Can you not see your contradictions?



What has Ubay got to do with this post?
Are you dazed?

I cannot answer the question, yet I used a VERB to justify what the Jews did in trying to hide the truth of what the Thalmud prescribed for the punishment of fornication again!?

You are surely confused!?
The purpose of quoting in Nairaland is to avoid this kind of blunders.

Unlike you and your pagan inclination Muslims do not imagine a God in something he created to worship.

You are the one who presents hadith to justify your wrong arguments as you cannot understand?

Do you now forget your inclusion of Ubai in your arguments? Tell me about confusion.

TenQ:
All I needed was anyone of Ibn Mas'ud, Ubayy bin Ka'b, Mu'adh bin Jabal, and Salim the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifah.

They were alive but we're not part of the committees of both Abubaker and Uthman


Is this hadith Maudi or Daif?
Sahih al-Bukhari 4481
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)

Of course you forget your reference to Ubay/Ubai in your responses? Allow yourself age appropriately before you start becoming forgetful.

Was Ibn Masud resident in Mecca when Uthmani initiated the standardisation of the Quran? Get your points for negation in order before typing.

Alleged abrogated verses of the Quran and verses that abrogate them are in the Quran. The abrogation you referred to is with respect to books and instructions given to mankind through earlier prophets.

Ohyoudidnt:
Unlike you and your pagan inclination Muslims do not imagine a God in something he created to worship.

You are the one who presents hadith to justify your wrong arguments as you cannot understand?

Do you now forget your inclusion of Ubai in your arguments? Tell me about confusion.

Qur'an 27:8-10
8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'"
9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'"
10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"

You don't know who was in the Fire!
What a shame. Allah says he has explained everything in DETAIL in your Quran but because you dont actually follow Allah, you follow Mohammed and your Scholars!

Ohyoudidnt:
Of course you forget your reference to Ubay/Ubai in your responses? Allow yourself age appropriately before you start becoming forgetful.

Was Ibn Masud resident in Mecca when Uthmani initiated the standardisation of the Quran? Get your points for negation in order before typing.

Alleged abrogated verses of the Quran and verses that abrogate them are in the Quran. The abrogation you referred to is with respect to books and instructions given to mankind through earlier prophets.

Even though this was not the Question asked by me: you said
"Was Ibn Masud resident in Mecca when Uthmani initiated the standardisation of the Quran?"
Were ALL the four reciters out of Mecca BOTH during the compilation of the Quran of Abubakar and the Quran of Uthman?

Is it TRUE that Muslim scholars especially Zaid was aware that some verses according to the best of the reciters Ubai was left out of the Quran?

Sahih al-Bukhari 4481
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)

How come even though they knew some of the verses of Ubai, why did they leave them out?

TenQ:
Qur'an 27:8-10
8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'"
9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'"
10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"

You don't know who was in the Fire!
What a shame. Allah says he has explained everything in DETAIL in your Quran but because you dont actually follow Allah, you follow Mohammed and your Scholars!




Even though this was not the Question asked by me: you said
"Was Ibn Masud resident in Mecca when Uthmani initiated the standardisation of the Quran?"
Were ALL the four reciters out of Mecca BOTH during the compilation of the Quran of Abubakar and the Quran of Uthman?

Is it TRUE that Muslim scholars especially Zaid was aware that some verses according to the best of the reciters Ubai was left out of the Quran?

Sahih al-Bukhari 4481
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)

How come even though they knew some of the verses of Ubai, why did they leave them out?

The phrase "Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it" serves as a declaration of the divine presence and blessing of Allah in that miraculous setting. It highlights the transcendence and majesty of Allah, who can manifest His signs and communicate with His prophets in extraordinary ways, such as through the burning bush experienced


In the Quran, it is understood that certain verses were revealed to replace or supersede earlier verses. Here are some examples:

1. Verse on Alcohol:
Abrogated verse: Surah Al-Baqarah (2:219) mentions that in wine there is great sin and some benefit for people.
Abrogating verse:Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:90) later commands: "O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful."

2. Verse on Facing Qibla:
-Abrogated verse: Surah Al-Baqarah (2:144) states that believers should face Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa.
- Abrogating verse:Surah Al-Baqarah (2:150) later reveals that the qibla has been changed to the Kaaba in Makkah.

Ohyoudidnt:
The phrase "Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it" serves as a declaration of the divine presence and blessing of Allah in that miraculous setting. It highlights the transcendence and majesty of Allah, who can manifest His signs and communicate with His prophets in extraordinary ways, such as through the burning bush experienced

LOL!
You Muslims do not believe in your Allah at all: even when the plain message of Allah is clear and simple, you have to go with the consensus of your scholars or Mohammed.

1. Is it UNTRUE that the word "WHO" as used in Qur'an 27:8-10 refers to a PERSONALITY?
2. If it is, Are you saying that "No one was in the Fire" and "no One was around the Fire"?
3. Who spoke the phrase "Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds."
Is it Allah or Moses?
4. Is your conclusion that Allah is powerless to be either within the Fire and around it without him seizing to be Allah?

Ohyoudidnt:
In the Quran, it is understood that certain verses were revealed to replace or supersede earlier verses. Here are some examples:

1. Verse on Alcohol:
Abrogated verse: Surah Al-Baqarah (2:219) mentions that in wine there is great sin and some benefit for people.
Abrogating verse:Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:90) later commands: "O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful."

2. Verse on Facing Qibla:
-Abrogated verse: Surah Al-Baqarah (2:144) states that believers should face Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa.
- Abrogating verse:Surah Al-Baqarah (2:150) later reveals that the qibla has been changed to the Kaaba in Makkah.

Let us for the sake of argument agree with you that one verse of the Qur'an can abrogate an earlier verse.

I think the issue I am complaining about is when an abrogated verse is deleted and removed from the Qur'an.

The implication is really bad for you Muslims and it doesn't have any reasonable explanations. Let me break it down for you.

1. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Qur'an of Allah in paradise.
2. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Allah in paradise is uncreated (it is an attribute of Allah)
3. There are verses abrogated both from recitation and ruling (deleted from the Qur'an)

If these two above are true,
1. Are these kind of abrogated verses in the Qur'an of Allah but deleted from the Qur'an of Mohammed? Eg. The verses on stoning and breastfeeding an adult man ten times
2. Did Jibril dictate as part of the Qur'an verses which were not in the Qur'an of Allah to Mohammed?
3. Don't you see that the doctrine of Abrogation invalidate the claim of eternal nature of the Qur'an?

TenQ:
LOL!
You Muslims do not believe in your Allah at all: even when the plain message of Allah is clear and simple, you have to go with the consensus of your scholars or Mohammed.

1. Is it UNTRUE that the word "WHO" as used in Qur'an 27:8-10 refers to a PERSONALITY?
2. If it is, Are you saying that "No one was in the Fire" and "no One was around the Fire"?
3. Who spoke the phrase "Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds."
Is it Allah or Moses?
4. Is your conclusion that Allah is powerless to be either within the Fire and around it without him seizing to be Allah?




Let us for the sake of argument agree with you that one verse of the Qur'an can abrogate an earlier verse.

I think the issue I am complaining about is when an abrogated verse is deleted and removed from the Qur'an.

The implication is really bad for you Muslims and it doesn't have any reasonable explanations. Let me break it down for you.

1. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Qur'an of Allah in paradise.
2. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Allah in paradise is uncreated (it is an attribute of Allah)
3. There are verses abrogated both from recitation and ruling (deleted from the Qur'an)

If these two above are true,
1. Are these kind of abrogated verses in the Qur'an of Allah but deleted from the Qur'an of Mohammed? Eg. The verses on stoning and breastfeeding an adult man ten times
2. Did Jibril dictate as part of the Qur'an verses which were not in the Qur'an of Allah to Mohammed?
3. Don't you see that the doctrine of Abrogation invalidate the claim of eternal nature of the Qur'an?

Definitions of Abrogate:

To abolish, do away with, or annul, especially by authority.
To annul by an authoritative act; to abolish by the authority of the maker or his successor; to repeal; -- applied to the repeal of laws, decrees, ordinances, the abolition of customs, etc.

To put an end to; to do away with.


I have shown verses of the Quran that were abrogated and the verses that abrogated them.

The allegation of existence of certain verses is questionable when you cannot prove outside some hadith that they existed?

Is it not the case that the hadith explained the exclusion of some chapters of the Quran from the collection of companions due to the feeling that these were prayers? Also the addition of Al-Qunnut as a Surah in other collections?

The burden of proof; onus probandi; is the obligation to provide sufficient supporting evidence for claims made by the accuser.

I have given examples of verses that were abrogated and what replaced them.

You misunderstand what is the lauhul mafuz.
The Lauhul Mahfuz refers to the Preserved Tablet in Islamic belief, which is a celestial record where Allah has inscribed everything that will occur, including the Quran and all matters related to the universe.

Note the Quran isn't the only thing in the preserved tablet. Is it not true that other books were revealed to other prophets? Did they not fundamentally emphasize a sole all powerful God?


Is the Earth consisting the woods/wilderness and whatever insects or animals around where the 'non burning fire' not part of the blessed creation of Allah?

The voice that emanated from the burning bush doesn't necessarily mean what produced the sound was in the fire. Does your knowledge of physics not inform you of sound transferred to appear originating away from the source?

The perception of sound can be influenced by various factors.

You did not answer a single one of my questions
LOL!
You Muslims do not believe in your Allah at all: even when the plain message of Allah is clear and simple, you have to go with the consensus of your scholars or Mohammed.

1. Is it UNTRUE that the word "WHO" as used in Qur'an 27:8-10 refers to a PERSONALITY?
2. If it is, Are you saying that "No one was in the Fire" and "no One was around the Fire"?
3. Who spoke the phrase "Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds."
Is it Allah or Moses?
4. Is your conclusion that Allah is powerless to be either within the Fire and around it without him seizing to be Allah?




Let us for the sake of argument agree with you that one verse of the Qur'an can abrogate an earlier verse.

I think the issue I am complaining about is when an abrogated verse is deleted and removed from the Qur'an.

The implication is really bad for you Muslims and it doesn't have any reasonable explanations. Let me break it down for you.

1. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Qur'an of Allah in paradise.
2. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Allah in paradise is uncreated (it is an attribute of Allah)
3. There are verses abrogated both from recitation and ruling (deleted from the Qur'an)

If these two above are true,
1. Are these kind of abrogated verses in the Qur'an of Allah but deleted from the Qur'an of Mohammed? Eg. The verses on stoning and breastfeeding an adult man ten times
2. Did Jibril dictate as part of the Qur'an verses which were not in the Qur'an of Allah to Mohammed?
3. Don't you see that the doctrine of Abrogation invalidate the claim of eternal nature of the Qur'an?

Ohyoudidnt:
Definitions of Abrogate:

To abolish, do away with, or annul, especially by authority.
To annul by an authoritative act; to abolish by the authority of the maker or his successor; to repeal; -- applied to the repeal of laws, decrees, ordinances, the abolition of customs, etc.

To put an end to; to do away with.


I have shown verses of the Quran that were abrogated and the verses that abrogated them.

I am going with you doctrine of Abrogation BUT it has a big flaw

If Jibril dictated the Qur'an to Mohammed from the Qur'an of Allah in paradise, then, even if a verse is abrogated, it wouldn't be deleted but replaced with a newer verse

Example:
Where is the verse of Rajam (stoning) in the modern Qur'an?
Where is the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times, which was abrogated to five times in your modern Qur'an?

Check these two hadiths
Sahih Muslim 2655:
“The Qur'an was with Allah before the creation of the heavens and the earth.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 6988:
“The Qur'an is the speech of Allah, which is not created.”

If the Qur'an was with Allah before Mohammed, except if the Qur'an of Mohammed is different from that of Allah, a single revealed verse cannot be deleted.

Ohyoudidnt:
The allegation of existence of certain verses is questionable when you cannot prove outside some hadith that they existed?

Is it not the case that the hadith explained the exclusion of some chapters of the Quran from the collection of companions due to the feeling that these were prayers? Also the addition of Al-Qunnut as a Surah in other collections?

The burden of proof; onus probandi; is the obligation to provide sufficient supporting evidence for claims made by the accuser.

I have given examples of verses that were abrogated and what replaced them.

Are you pretending that I Never showed you the evidences before?
Okay, here are three verses DELETED from the Qur'an and none of them are Prayers.

The argument of deleting prayers is also very weak because AL-FATHIA is a prayer but it wasn't deleted.

Sahih al-Bukhari 6830
....
Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.....


Sahih al-Bukhari 6830
....And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah's Book: 'O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.' Then Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, 'Do not praise me excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah's Slave and His Apostles.'.....

Sunan Ibn Majah 1944
It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”
1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5.

Can you show me from your Qur'an these deleted verses?

Ohyoudidnt:
You misunderstand what is the lauhul mafuz.
The Lauhul Mahfuz refers to the Preserved Tablet in Islamic belief, which is a celestial record where Allah has inscribed everything that will occur, including the Quran and all matters related to the universe.

Note the Quran isn't the only thing in the preserved tablet. Is it not true that other books were revealed to other prophets? Did they not fundamentally emphasize a sole all powerful God?

I have no problem with this as it doesn't change the position of my argument.

If the Qur'an is part of the Lauhul Mahfuz (the Preserved Tablet), it existed before it was revealed.

It means that nothing can be deleted from it as it contains the exact knowledge of Allah of what will happen in future.

If anything is deleted from the Qur'an of Mohammed, it is a proof that it isn't identical to the Qur'an of Allah.

Ohyoudidnt:
Is the Earth consisting the woods/wilderness and whatever insects or animals around where the 'non burning fire' not part of the blessed creation of Allah?

The voice that emanated from the burning bush doesn't necessarily mean what produced the sound was in the fire. Does your knowledge of physics not inform you of sound transferred to appear originating away from the source?

The perception of sound can be influenced by various factors.

The Question was simple:
WHO was in the Fire?
WHO was around the Fire?

The word WHO describes a person isn't it?

TenQ:
You did not answer a single one of my questions
LOL!
You Muslims do not believe in your Allah at all: even when the plain message of Allah is clear and simple, you have to go with the consensus of your scholars or Mohammed.

1. Is it UNTRUE that the word "WHO" as used in Qur'an 27:8-10 refers to a PERSONALITY?
2. If it is, Are you saying that "No one was in the Fire" and "no One was around the Fire"?
3. Who spoke the phrase "Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds."
Is it Allah or Moses?
4. Is your conclusion that Allah is powerless to be either within the Fire and around it without him seizing to be Allah?




Let us for the sake of argument agree with you that one verse of the Qur'an can abrogate an earlier verse.

I think the issue I am complaining about is when an abrogated verse is deleted and removed from the Qur'an.

The implication is really bad for you Muslims and it doesn't have any reasonable explanations. Let me break it down for you.

1. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Qur'an of Allah in paradise.
2. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Allah in paradise is uncreated (it is an attribute of Allah)
3. There are verses abrogated both from recitation and ruling (deleted from the Qur'an)

If these two above are true,
1. Are these kind of abrogated verses in the Qur'an of Allah but deleted from the Qur'an of Mohammed? Eg. The verses on stoning and breastfeeding an adult man ten times
2. Did Jibril dictate as part of the Qur'an verses which were not in the Qur'an of Allah to Mohammed?
3. Don't you see that the doctrine of Abrogation invalidate the claim of eternal nature of the Qur'an?



I am going with you doctrine of Abrogation BUT it has a big flaw

If Jibril dictated the Qur'an to Mohammed from the Qur'an of Allah in paradise, then, even if a verse is abrogated, it wouldn't be deleted but replaced with a newer verse

Example:
Where is the verse of Rajam (stoning) in the modern Qur'an?
Where is the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times, which was abrogated to five times in your modern Qur'an?

Check these two hadiths
Sahih Muslim 2655:
“The Qur'an was with Allah before the creation of the heavens and the earth.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 6988:
“The Qur'an is the speech of Allah, which is not created.”

If the Qur'an was with Allah before Mohammed, except if the Qur'an of Mohammed is different from that of Allah, a single revealed verse cannot be deleted.


Are you pretending that I Never showed you the evidences before?
Okay, here are three verses DELETED from the Qur'an and none of them are Prayers.

The argument of deleting prayers is also very weak because AL-FATHIA is a prayer but it wasn't deleted.

Sahih al-Bukhari 6830
....
Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.....


Sahih al-Bukhari 6830
....And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah's Book: 'O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.' Then Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, 'Do not praise me excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah's Slave and His Apostles.'.....

Sunan Ibn Majah 1944
It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”
1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5.

Can you show me from your Qur'an these deleted verses?




I have no problem with this as it doesn't change the position of my argument.

If the Qur'an is part of the Lauhul Mahfuz (the Preserved Tablet), it existed before it was revealed.

It means that nothing can be deleted from it as it contains the exact knowledge of Allah of what will happen in future.

If anything is deleted from the Qur'an of Mohammed, it is a proof that it isn't identical to the Qur'an of Allah.





The Question was simple:
WHO was in the Fire?
WHO was around the Fire?

The word WHO describes a person isn't it?

There's no literal translation to Allah's holy words, but we translate the meaning.
We try our best to translate. Translation often betrays the original text.

The use of who is not literal but an association in the sense with the fire. Do you think Allah was in the fire or is this your explanation for the mixed narrative in your scripture that the Angel was seen in the fire yet God spoke?

Why was this not the case when angel Gabriel appeared to Mary or is it that God doesn't speak directly with women in Christianity or Judaism?

If you can not comprehend my answer or expect a particular type of answer indeed you betray yourself as not actually asking.

How do you determine the power of your dirty by his ability to be in certain forms or in certain things? Does God need to be in such position to manifest his power?

I had told you before that it is not hadith that takes precedence over the Quran. Breastfeeding is for children not grown ups. An exception was made in one case before the person had grown into a full fledged man.

The justification for rajm primarily comes from various hadiths. This story of written verses being eatien is skeptical. Was the memory of the verse also eaten from all those who had memorized it took?

Could this claim about this verse not stem from influence of the Jewish halacha based on Deuteronomy 22:22-24 indicating that early Islamic scholars may have adopted similar punitive measures without direct Qur’anic support?


You alleged the verse and should provide proof of this from any of the ancient or other versions of the Quran you allege, onus probandi

Ohyoudidnt:
There's no literal translation to Allah's holy words, but we translate the meaning.
We try our best to translate. Translation often betrays the original text.

It is either Islam is strictly for Arabs or it is the worst language for any scripture.

Have you ever seen Christians and Jews complaining about how impossible to translate Hebrew into any other language?

Ohyoudidnt:
The use of who is not literal but an association in the sense with the fire. Do you think Allah was in the fire or is this your explanation for the mixed narrative in your scripture that the Angel was seen in the fire yet God spoke?

Please tell me that
1. No one was in the fire
2. No one was around the Fire

This would suffice!

Ohyoudidnt:
Why was this not the case when angel Gabriel appeared to Mary or is it that God doesn't speak directly with women in Christianity or Judaism?

Did Angel Gabriel speak as a messanger to Mary or did he peak as God?

When Jibril became a perfect man in the Qur'an, did he momentarily stop being an Angel?

Ohyoudidnt:
If you can not comprehend my answer or expect a particular type of answer indeed you betray yourself as not actually asking.

This is what you arrive at when you refused to supply a direct answer to a direct question.

I am still waiting for your answers to my questions

Ohyoudidnt:
How do you determine the power of your dirty by his ability to be in certain forms or in certain things? Does God need to be in such position to manifest his power?

God is Almighty because there is NOTHING impossible for Him to do as long as it doesn't compromise His integrity.

The question to you was simple:
Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?

This is a simple question sir.

Ohyoudidnt:
I had told you before that it is not hadith that takes precedence over the Quran. Breastfeeding is for children not grown ups. An exception was made in one case before the person had grown into a full fledged man.

But your scholars said that both the verses of Rajam and the verse of breastfeeding an adult 10 times was revealed.

Sunan Ibn Majah 1944
Sahih al-Bukhari 6830

Were your scholars telling lies?

Ohyoudidnt:
The justification for rajm primarily comes from various hadiths. This story of written verses being eatien is skeptical. Was the memory of the verse also eaten from all those who had memorized it took?

The Hadiths are your books and they give evidence to verses you no longer recite.

Ohyoudidnt:
Could this claim about this verse not stem from influence of the Jewish halacha based on Deuteronomy 22:22-24 indicating that early Islamic scholars may have adopted similar punitive measures without direct Qur’anic support?

It is actually you Muslims that is copying the Jews and not the other way round.

Sahih al-Bukhari 5917
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to copy the people of the Scriptures in matters in which there was no order from Allah. The people of the Scripture used to let their hair hang down while the pagans used to part their hair. So the Prophet let his hair hang down first, but later on he parted it.

Ohyoudidnt:
You alleged the verse and should provide proof of this from any of the ancient or other versions of the Quran you allege, onus probandi

Have you seen evidences of differences with
1. The Sana'a Qur'an and your modern Qur'an?
2. Have you seen enough evidences between the Warsh Qur'an and the Hafs Qur'an?

Have I shown you illogicalities and errors from your Qur'an?


Only one discrepancy is enough to invalidate the Qur'an sir: and this has been done

TenQ:
It is either Islam is strictly for Arabs or it is the worst language for any scripture.

Have you ever seen Christians and Jews complaining about how impossible to translate Hebrew into any other language?


Please tell me that
1. No one was in the fire
2. No one was around the Fire

This would suffice!



Did Angel Gabriel speak as a messanger to Mary or did he peak as God?

When Jibril became a perfect man in the Qur'an, did he momentarily stop being an Angel?



This is what you arrive at when you refused to supply a direct answer to a direct question.

I am still waiting for your answers to my questions


God is Almighty because there is NOTHING impossible for Him to do as long as it doesn't compromise His integrity.

The question to you was simple:
Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?

This is a simple question sir.



But your scholars said that both the verses of Rajam and the verse of breastfeeding an adult 10 times was revealed.

Sunan Ibn Majah 1944
Sahih al-Bukhari 6830

Were your scholars telling lies?



The Hadiths are your books and they give evidence to verses you no longer recite.



It is actually you Muslims that is copying the Jews and not the other way round.

Sahih al-Bukhari 5917
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to copy the people of the Scriptures in matters in which there was no order from Allah. The people of the Scripture used to let their hair hang down while the pagans used to part their hair. So the Prophet let his hair hang down first, but later on he parted it.



Have you seen evidences of differences with
1. The Sana'a Qur'an and your modern Qur'an?
2. Have you seen enough evidences between the Warsh Qur'an and the Hafs Qur'an?

Have I shown you illogicalities and errors from your Qur'an?


Only one discrepancy is enough to invalidate the Qur'an sir: and this has been done

Your argument is pretty flawed. Do you mean every single statement in your language can be literally and exactly translated to another language or English? Does the English language itself not borrow from other languages?

I didn't say it's impossible but point at the truth that some fundamentals get lost in translation.


Yes no one was in the fire. At least we don't confuse an angel being in the fire like the bible.

Around the fire was the blessed creation of Allah.

Why is the text in the angel speaking as a messenger to Mary not the case when the angel was seen in the fire? Did the authors ommit?

Did Jibril become a man or appear to be a man?
You know things aren't always what they seem.


Allah is beyond any need to enter in his creation. Did the creation exist without or before Allah created it?

Fundamental difference in your conception of God is the issue here. You see your deity needing to become something or enter something to function as God which is different from Islam.

Perhaps you need to review the level of agreement of the scholars you refer to about the hadith.

The most important hadith might be one where the Jews of Medina bring a case of married adultery before the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. The Prophet wants to deal with the adulterers according to Jewish law. The Jews try to ward off the punishment by saying there is nothing in the Torah about stoning adulterers or attempting to hide this.

The proof I request is a Quran script containing the verses you claim are no more in the Quran not hadith. Or is hadith equal to the revealed Quran?

The background of the young man suckled needs to be acknowledged and the peculiar exception given. In truth it is mischief makers that try to make it a generality and not more.

The Sanaa scripts are scribal errors and I will encourage you to look at original pictures of the scripts and compare to what is generated to be what it reads.

There are cases of verse positions but you too acknowledge from your hadith sources that different types of recitals were revealed and existed in the prophets time and were approved.

Sincerely by how much do the word variations affect the core meaning of the Quran verses?

Ohyoudidnt:
Your argument is pretty flawed. Do you mean every single statement in your language can be literally and exactly translated to another language or English? Does the English language itself not borrow from other languages?
I didn't say it's impossible but point at the truth that some fundamentals get lost in translation.

There is a difference between translation of a script and interpretation of a script.

Any language that cannot be interpreted is a useless language

The question remains:
The Question was simple:
WHO was in the Fire?
WHO was around the Fire?

Ohyoudidnt:
Yes no one was in the fire. At least we don't confuse an angel being in the fire like the bible.

Around the fire was the blessed creation of Allah.

So , you are saying that Allah lied that someone was in the Fire whereas no one was in the fire!
Secondly, what is the name of the one around the Fire?

How is this person able to be around the Fire?

Ohyoudidnt:
Why is the text in the angel speaking as a messenger to Mary not the case when the angel was seen in the fire? Did the authors ommit?

It is understandable for a person worshipping a deity who is incapable of entering His creation to lack cognitive sense of the spiritual
Exo 3:2-4:
"And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the middle of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the middle of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I."

Luk 1:30-32:
"And the angel said to her, Fear not, Mary: for you have found favor with God. And, behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and shall call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give to him the throne of his father David:"

Ohyoudidnt:
Did Jibril become a man or appear to be a man?
You know things aren't always what they seem.

Show me the word appear in your Qur'an?
What is a well proportioned man: is he a ghost?
Qur'an 19:17
And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel [i.e., Gabriel], and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.

Muslims will deny their Allah as long as it keeps them in the argument

Is the well proportioned man real or fake?

Ohyoudidnt:
Allah is beyond any need to enter in his creation. Did the creation exist without or before Allah created it?

It seems it doesn't dawn on you that Allah is LIMITED. Is he not above the waters which is above the 7th heaven!?
It means that Allah occupies space. He is localized.

Ohyoudidnt:
Fundamental difference in your conception of God is the issue here. You see your deity needing to become something or enter something to function as God which is different from Islam.

My God can simultaneously both be everywhere and somewhere in physical and spiritual realm but Allah cannot.
This is the difference!

Ohyoudidnt:
Perhaps you need to review the level of agreement of the scholars you refer to about the hadith.

The most important hadith might be one where the Jews of Medina bring a case of married adultery before the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. The Prophet wants to deal with the adulterers according to Jewish law. The Jews try to ward off the punishment by saying there is nothing in the Torah about stoning adulterers or attempting to hide this.

Are the three hadiths I presented Maudi?
You know that Muslim scholars can represent satan in a lying competition.

If they are not fabricated, own up to the truth. Many verses have been deleted from the Qur'an

Ohyoudidnt:
The proof I request is a Quran script containing the verses you claim are no more in the Quran not hadith. Or is hadith equal to the revealed Quran?

Prove to me that five days ago, I ate Pounded yam by showing me the real pounded yam I ate, otherwise, it means that I ate an egg!

Can you see the wisdom of your logic!?

Ohyoudidnt:
The background of the young man suckled needs to be acknowledged and the peculiar exception given. In truth it is mischief makers that try to make it a generality and not more.

So, young men should be sucking the breasts of women!?

Tell me then why initially , breastfeeding an adult man ten times was abrogated to five times?

Ohyoudidnt:
The Sanaa scripts are scribal errors and I will encourage you to look at original pictures of the scripts and compare to what is generated to be what it reads.

For once, a Muslim speaks the truth.
Scribal Errors!

Scribal errors can be forgiven but insisting on a lie that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved is a blatant lie that has to be put to shame!

Ohyoudidnt:
There are cases of verse positions but you too acknowledge from your hadith sources that different types of recitals were revealed and existed in the prophets time and were approved.

Sincerely by how much do the word variations affect the core meaning of the Quran verses?

My argument is not about whether the differences within the Qur'an caused a huge variation from the core message
BUT
My argument is against the Standard Islamic Narrative that says that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to it's diacritical marks.

At least you have admitted that the standard Islamic Narrative is pure FALSEHOOD!

TenQ:
There is a difference between translation of a script and interpretation of a script.

Any language that cannot be interpreted is a useless language

The question remains:
The Question was simple:
WHO was in the Fire?
WHO was around the Fire?



So , you are saying that Allah lied that someone was in the Fire whereas no one was in the fire!
Secondly, what is the name of the one around the Fire?

How is this person able to be around the Fire?



It is understandable for a person worshipping a deity who is incapable of entering His creation to lack cognitive sense of the spiritual
Exo 3:2-4:
"And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the middle of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the middle of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I."

Luk 1:30-32:
"And the angel said to her, Fear not, Mary: for you have found favor with God. And, behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and shall call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give to him the throne of his father David:"



Show me the word appear in your Qur'an?
What is a well proportioned man: is he a ghost?
Qur'an 19:17
And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel [i.e., Gabriel], and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.

Muslims will deny their Allah as long as it keeps them in the argument

Is the well proportioned man real or fake?




It seems it doesn't dawn on you that Allah is LIMITED. Is he not above the waters which is above the 7th heaven!?
It means that Allah occupies space. He is localized.




My God can simultaneously both be everywhere and somewhere in physical and spiritual realm but Allah cannot.
This is the difference!



Are the three hadiths I presented Maudi?
You know that Muslim scholars can represent satan in a lying competition.

If they are not fabricated, own up to the truth. Many verses have been deleted from the Qur'an




Prove to me that five days ago, I ate Pounded yam by showing me the real pounded yam I ate, otherwise, it means that I ate an egg!

Can you see the wisdom of your logic!?




So, young men should be sucking the breasts of women!?

Tell me then why initially , breastfeeding an adult man ten times was abrogated to five times?


For once, a Muslim speaks the truth.
Scribal Errors!

Scribal errors can be forgiven but insisting on a lie that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved is a blatant lie that has to be put to shame!




My argument is not about whether the differences within the Qur'an caused a huge variation from the core message
BUT
My argument is against the Standard Islamic Narrative that says that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to it's diacritical marks.

At least you have admitted that the standard Islamic Narrative is pure FALSEHOOD!

Do you not see how you cannot stick with one argument? You refer to Islam being solely for Arabians if the Arabic of the Quran cannot be translated now you shift your argument to interpretation?

The term “مَن” translated to who in context of Quran 29:8 does not literally refer to a person or entity but signifies a broader collective presence associated with divine phenomena.

You keep repeating your question based on literal translation or interpretation of the meaning because you are not getting an answer you like?

Well your description of deity perfectly agrees with a philosopher's statement that it is man who created God in his desired image which is extremely wrong. Do you determine or the God who created you? Perhaps you can as well undo the effect of climatic variations or make gravity work towards the sky not the earth's core.

You can see that different interpretations of the Quran verse you mention have indicated appearance and likeness. When dog looks like a fox or wolf does it make it a wolf?

Muhammad Pickthall-----

And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.

-----Saheeh International-----

And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel, and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.

-----Muhammad Shakir-----

So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.


Your argument of eating pounded yam is so warped because if such proof was required an atomic labelled yam and or egg will have been fed to you so a trace of this element can be made to see how much of it was retained to be utilised in building your post meal make up

It seems you fail to see the singular case of the one who had lived since he was a child to early manhood and just like the promoters of falsehood want to generalise a singular situation?

Does there exist any Quran verse that talks about breastfeeding an adult or the verse reverse to suckling a baby? Show the verse on suckling an adult then we can discuss more.

What is the essence of the Quran if not the message it passes? Is the message of the Quran not preserved? Is this what you will rather move your argument to?

I have pointed to the truth that not all that is alleged to be the tradition or saying of the prophet Muhammad is true. There are fabricated hadith for various reasons as well as totally true hadith. Perhaps you should present a fabricated Quran that is acceptable and recognised.

I see my brother has had a baseless discussion with one of your brethren that fails to accept the translation of Messiah from Hebrew to English as annointed.

In any case we have our fundamental core differences and are not mandated to be the same.

Enjoy your days ahead

Ohyoudidnt:
Do you not see how you cannot stick with one argument? You refer to Islam being solely for Arabians if the Arabic of the Quran cannot be translated now you shift your argument to interpretation?

Whatever cannot be translated cannot be interpreted

Ohyoudidnt:
The term “مَن” translated to who in context of Quran 29:8 does not literally refer to a person or entity but signifies a broader collective presence associated with divine phenomena.

Says who?

Ohyoudidnt:
You keep repeating your question based on literal translation or interpretation of the meaning because you are not getting an answer you like?

Will you accept such forms of flawed interpretation by Christians for the bible?

Ohyoudidnt:
Well your description of deity perfectly agrees with a philosopher's statement that it is man who created God in his desired image which is extremely wrong. Do you determine or the God who created you? Perhaps you can as well undo the effect of climatic variations or make gravity work towards the sky not the earth's core.

It is Mohammed that created a God according to his own imagination. Is Allah a Spirit? No! Is Allah a Father? No!
Is Allah Omnipresent? No!

In trying to create God, Mohammed arrived at a limited edition of the Creator.

Ohyoudidnt:
You can see that different interpretations of the Quran verse you mention have indicated appearance and likeness. When dog looks like a fox or wolf does it make it a wolf?

Muhammad Pickthall-----

And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.

-----Saheeh International-----

And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel, and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.

-----Muhammad Shakir-----

So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.

So, are you claiming that Jibril did NOT appear to Mary as a perfect man?

Ohyoudidnt:
Your argument of eating pounded yam is so warped because if such proof was required an atomic labelled yam and or egg will have been fed to you so a trace of this element can be made to see how much of it was retained to be utilised in building your post meal make up

It is good you are seeing how faulty your argument is with this illustration.

How can I ask you to find me the physical evidence of the food I ate five days ago just as
How can you ask me to find the evidence of deleted verses from the book from which it was deleted?

Ohyoudidnt:
It seems you fail to see the singular case of the one who had lived since he was a child to early manhood and just like the promoters of falsehood want to generalise a singular situation?

Does there exist any Quran verse that talks about breastfeeding an adult or the verse reverse to suckling a baby? Show the verse on suckling an adult then we can discuss more.

What else after showing you evidence that you destroyed an evidence?

Ohyoudidnt:
What is the essence of the Quran if not the message it passes? Is the message of the Quran not preserved? Is this what you will rather move your argument to?

I have pointed to the truth that not all that is alleged to be the tradition or saying of the prophet Muhammad is true. There are fabricated hadith for various reasons as well as totally true hadith. Perhaps you should present a fabricated Quran that is acceptable and recognised.

I see my brother has had a baseless discussion with one of your brethren that fails to accept the translation of Messiah from Hebrew to English as annointed.

In any case we have our fundamental core differences and are not mandated to be the same.

Enjoy your days ahead

My questions was specific: which of the Hadiths I presented was Maudu?


Have a beautiful night rest