₦airaland Forum

Tetraozonaitera:
Which ever So Called "Christian" converted into atheism because he or she was not even a Christian before.

Bearing Paul and Peter or Emmanuel doesn't make you a Christian.
Being born by Christian parents doesn't make you a christian. So, dont get it twisted.

Going to church every day doesn't even make you a christian.

Such "Christians" get angry at God because they thought Christianity is Bread and Butter.

They face life difficulties despite prayers and get disappointed. So, they kukuma say "Omo, there's no God Joor,"

The fact is, they were not even genuine christians before na.

An example was Professor Tai Solarin.

i watched his interview where he said he became an atheist because. He had tested if there was God and discovered there was none.
He used to be an average student in secondary school despite coming from a Christian Family. He said he was such a fervent praying believer. But he still failed in his exams.
So, one day, he woke up and said, there is No God.
He said aloud, "God you dont exist. If you do, make me fail this exams because I wont call on you. But to proof that you dont exist, I will pass this exams without you"
Like he said, he read his books more than ever and he passed with great marks.

You see?

Disappointment in God makes a lot atheists.

But the fact still remains they were not real Christians before. They only thought they were.

TRUE CHRISTIANS LIVE TO DIE BELIEVING EVEN WHEN DEATH STARES THEM IN THE FACE. NO TRIALS CAN MAKE THEM DENY GOD. NEVER.

Did you even read the link before throwing up this powerful example of No true Scotsman fallacy?
What if I tell you no true atheist converted to Christianity?

jaephoenix:
Did you even read the link before throwing up this powerful example of No true Scotsman fallacy?
What if I tell you no true atheist converted to Christianity?

Good luck to you bro.

Nefort:
You wouldn't get any much response from christians compared to the amount of response you will get from atheists. Just try it yourself and see.

You should have seen my Facebook the day I announced I no longer believe in a god. Or the day I wrote belief doesn't accomplish much in a WhatsApp group. It wasn't the Muslims who were on my case, it was Christians.

jaephoenix:
I have seriously thought in that vein. I mean, we have a steady supply of sheeples being supplied, why not utilize them

The more I think about the more certain I am that I going to do it. Maybe not as blatantly as some these guys but for sure gonna happen.

honesttalk21:
Perhaps it doesn't exclusively refer to Jesus however it is sufficient that you see how it refers to him.

1. The claim that Jesus died at age 33 doesn't agree with Psalm 91:15-16; I will deliver him and honor him with long life I will satisfy him
and show him my salvation.
Besides it is a false and wrong claim that he died at this age.

Another point is did Elijah or Enoch die?

Even though Ps91 is not exclusively referring to Jesus
The question is : Did Jesus live to be an old man on earth? No!
Yo might want to tell us when he left this world.
Then he didn't have a long life

honesttalk21:
2. Is it only safety from falls from heights that is spoken of?

Is there not "He will call on me, and I will answer him, I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him?

Did Jesus according to your Bible not call on God so the cup will pass over him? Is this selective acceptance of your Biblical scripture?
In any case the apocrypha was selected out wasn't it?

Does apocrypha not interpreted to mean relating to mystery due to its association with hidden knowledge?

Is how Jesus was saved from shameful crucifixion and raised unto Allah not a mystery till date?

I don't get the essence or context of the thousands who fell by the right and left hand of Jesus. Maybe you may explain?

You are trying too hard to correct Allah and make his goof right.
If you insist that Ps 91 is exclusively referring to Jesus, then you must explain ALSO the issue of not dashing his foot against the stone sir!

The salvation is about the coming back to LIFE of the Jesus that was supposed to be killed.so that he will see us His descendants
Can you interpret this verse about the Messiah

Isaiah 53:10
"Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand."

honesttalk21:
Your following questions are strange.
1. Does the Quran say someone was crucified in place of Jesus?

Allah says that the Jews said they killed the Messiah, Isa the son of Mary and Allah did not

Here is what Sahih International translation said (is this my translation?)

Surah An-Nisa 4:157
"And [for] their saying, 'Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain."

honesttalk21:
2. Where is it said that Mary was deceived or do you derive that from imagination? What does your Bible say?

Do you have any iota of evidence that Mary was not Deceived by Allah?
Do you have any iota of evidence that the Disciples of Jesus were not Deceived by Allah?

For your information, I can show you that Jesus spoke to Mary on the Cross and Jesus spoke to John his disciple from the cross.

Why did Allah deceive Mary?

Here is Mary, the brothers of Jesus and the Disciples worshipping together AFTER the resurrection of Jesus
Acts 1:13-14
"And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where stayed both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers."

Bring your evidence that Mary and the Disciples were aware that Jesus was not crucified

honesttalk21:
3. When something is a mystery does it mean it is understood by any? Do you exactly know how life is given or taken from a zygote or dead man? There are mysteries that mankind doesn't exactly understand but speculate about.

There is no mystery here
In whose presence was Jesus taken up to heaven and what is your evidence?

honesttalk21:
4. Of course it is clear why the Jews attempted to kill Jesus. Did they not kill other prophets before him due to their rejection of the truth from God he brought?

The question was:
Why would the Jews killed their Messiah?

The Messiah was supposed to establish Israel over all the nations of the world. The Messiah is different from any prophet, so, explain WHY!

honesttalk21:
5. It is in same light time passed between Adam and the prophet who followed him. God does things at his own time not man's.

For how many millennia has the end of the world been expected? I appreciate your effort but could your question be better thought out?

I understand that without the crucifixion of Jesus there's no Christianity but did Jesus unambiguously forbid or condemn Judaism? Did he clearly instruct that a new religion be formed after him and about him?

How does what you wrote here answer the question:
Why did Allah wait for 600 years after creating Christianity before telling them that Jesus wasn't killed nor crucified?

The author of the Qur'an is either a fraud or a chronic Liar for he doesn't make any sense.

Which of the Disciples, Mary or Brothers of Jesus was aware that Jesus wasn't killed.

Do you think it makes sense for Christians choosing not to taunt the Romans and the Jews that Jesus escaped the crucifixion?


You answered not a single question sir:

Let's assume that your claims are true and Jesus was neither killed nor crucified
1. Who was killed instead of Jesus?
2. Why did Allah decide to deceive Mary the mother of Jesus with ALL the disciples of Jesus with the Romans and Jews?
3. In whose presence was Jesus taken up to heaven (any evidence)?
4. Why would the Jews killed their Messiah?
5. Why did Allah wait for 600 years after creating Christianity before telling them that Jesus wasn't killed nor crucified?


I will love if you have a logical and reasonable answers for the above questions.

Lol.. science explain cloth of thousand years ago. People can write nonsense sha

LordReed:
You should have seen my Facebook the day I announced I no longer believe in a god. Or the day I wrote belief doesn't accomplish much in a WhatsApp group. It wasn't the Muslims who were on my case, it was Christians.

You got the response you got because you posted it as an attention seeker. Just post it under a comment section and not as a major topic and see for yourself that nobody will bother about you.

jaephoenix:
These are Christian terrorist groups, since you insist on burying your head in the sand
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/nathaniel-veltman-muslim-family-canada-b1862845.html%3famp

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10576100701611288

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/16/wieambilla-shootings-australia-christian-terrorist-attack-queensland-police

https://www.salon.com/2015/04/07/6_modern_day_christian_terrorist_groups_our_media_conveniently_ignores_partner/

How many of them are they compared to the billions of other sane christians world worldwide? Bad people will always exist in every group. There will also be atheists who also discriminate and attack christians?

TenQ:
Even though Ps91 is not exclusively referring to Jesus
The question is : Did Jesus live to be an old man on earth? No!
Yo might want to tell us when he left this world.
Then he didn't have a long life

You are trying too hard to correct Allah and make his goof right.
If you insist that Ps 91 is exclusively referring to Jesus, then you must explain ALSO the issue of not dashing his foot against the stone sir!

The salvation is about the coming back to LIFE of the Jesus that was supposed to be killed.so that he will see us His descendants
Can you interpret this verse about the Messiah

Isaiah 53:10
"Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand."



Allah says that the Jews said they killed the Messiah, Isa the son of Mary and Allah did not

Here is what Sahih International translation said (is this my translation?)

Surah An-Nisa 4:157
"And [for] their saying, 'Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain."



Do you have any iota of evidence that Mary was not Deceived by Allah?
Do you have any iota of evidence that the Disciples of Jesus were not Deceived by Allah?

For your information, I can show you that Jesus spoke to Mary on the Cross and Jesus spoke to John his disciple from the cross.

Why did Allah deceive Mary?

Here is Mary, the brothers of Jesus and the Disciples worshipping together AFTER the resurrection of Jesus
Acts 1:13-14
"And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where stayed both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers."

Bring your evidence that Mary and the Disciples were aware that Jesus was not crucified




There is no mystery here
In whose presence was Jesus taken up to heaven and what is your evidence?



The question was:
Why would the Jews killed their Messiah?

The Messiah was supposed to establish Israel over all the nations of the world. The Messiah is different from any prophet, so, explain WHY!




How does what you wrote here answer the question:
Why did Allah wait for 600 years after creating Christianity before telling them that Jesus wasn't killed nor crucified?

The author of the Qur'an is either a fraud or a chronic Liar for he doesn't make any sense.

Which of the Disciples, Mary or Brothers of Jesus was aware that Jesus wasn't killed.

Do you think it makes sense for Christians choosing not to taunt the Romans and the Jews that Jesus escaped the crucifixion?


You answered not a single question sir:

Let's assume that your claims are true and Jesus was neither killed nor crucified
1. Who was killed instead of Jesus?
2. Why did Allah decide to deceive Mary the mother of Jesus with ALL the disciples of Jesus with the Romans and Jews?
3. In whose presence was Jesus taken up to heaven (any evidence)?
4. Why would the Jews killed their Messiah?
5. Why did Allah wait for 600 years after creating Christianity before telling them that Jesus wasn't killed nor crucified?


I will love if you have a logical and reasonable answers for the above questions.

Indeed Psalm 91 isn't exclusively about Jesus however who else is documented to be tempted by Satan as reported in Mark 4:If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:He will command his angels concerning you,and they will lift you up in their hands,so that you will not strike your foot against a stone in reference to Psalm 91:11-12?

Why does only this part of Psalm 91 refer particularly to Jesus and not the rest?

Do you know for certain Jesus didn't leave to an old age? I will share another video which is in line with one of the theories in the second video.

It also goes along with the conclusion about Quran 4:157.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5NJ16BWUWU?si=SGFTa6yfs4lHHc-T

You see reference to Paul, Jesus getting married etc.


Salvation is about coming back to life and not eternal residence in Paradise? Please what joys does the earth have in comparison to paradise?

Is this why many pastors preach so much about earthy wealth?😉

Regarding Mary other than limited information stated in your Bible about her around the crucifixion why is there not any more information? Deliberate attempt not to get exposed? Does your Bible say she was deceived? Of course not as there was no need for that.

Which of the disciples actually witnessed the crucifixion?


What do you know of the Basilidians and what became of them?

Has Israel been established over all other nations?

Were/Are Christians in a position to taunt the Romans? Did the Romans not rule over them?
Did Nero, Decius and Valerian not severely persecute christians or Diocletian not try to eradicate them?

Does your Bible not boldly say in
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 "Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.

and

Romans 1:25, it states, “They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator?

Well you will argue that Jesus is not a creature but you commonly refer to him as second Adam yet the first Adam is created.

jaephoenix:
One of your christian dolts posted about an atheist converting to Christianity (cos of some cooked up bullshit), but you didn't tell him to let atheists worry about that
Aint you a beautiful hypocrite

No hypocrisy here, I defended christianity & not worry about the atheism just because I'm a Christian. If you are an atheist you can defend your atheism and also leave us to worry about our christianity,dont do it for us.

Righteousness2:
If Eternity in Heaven matters to you, you must acknowledge, Believe and Surrender to JESUS CHRIST.
There is no other way.

Who is Jesus Christ, is Jesus an Alien?

Nefort:
You got the response you got because you posted it as an attention seeker. Just post it under a comment section and not as a major topic and see for yourself that nobody will bother about you.

Then you should see the response I got on TikTok for this very scenario. Look at it even here on Nairaland is not Christians here who responded to my post on this thread?

honesttalk21:
Indeed Psalm 91 isn't exclusively about Jesus however who else is documented to be tempted by Satan as reported in Mark 4:If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:He will command his angels concerning you,and they will lift you up in their hands,so that you will not strike your foot against a stone in reference to Psalm 91:11-12?

Why does only this part of Psalm 91 refer particularly to Jesus and not the rest?

Thanks at least for being honourable to admit that Ps 92 is not exclusively about Jesus. This was why I asked you questions about the divergences in the narrative of Ps 92 to Jesus.

Satan used the scripture because it suited his purpose. He wanted Jesus to jump down from a height where everyone would see him and know that He is the Messiah and in case Jesus doubted that his method would work, he brought out the scripture of God's promise to protect His Own from dashing his foot on the stone.

Jesus replied,
It is written, you shall not tempt the Lord your God!

honesttalk21:
Do you know for certain Jesus didn't leave to an old age? I will share another video which is in line with one of the theories in the second video.

It also goes along with the conclusion about Quran 4:157.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5NJ16BWUWU?si=SGFTa6yfs4lHHc-T
You see reference to Paul, Jesus getting married etc.

According, to Allah, is it true that Jesus went to Kashmir in India, got married, had children, died and was buried?
It just again proves that just as Islam, so many cults and organisations are wishing that Jesus wasn't crucified for the sin of mankind and thus to conclude that redemption is not through Him

Can you see why you are trying too hard to correct Allah?

honesttalk21:
Is this why many pastors preach so much about earthy wealth?😉

Even though the message of the Gospel isn't strictly exclusively ONLY about redemption through the sacrifice of Christ, In the cause of preaching, Anyone can choose to major in the minor of the gospel for the sake of increased followership and membership.

honesttalk21:
Regarding Mary other than limited information stated in your Bible about her around the crucifixion why is there not any more information? Deliberate attempt not to get exposed? Does your Bible say she was deceived? Of course not as there was no need for that.

Regarding the limited information of Jesus being the Messiah in the Qur'an, does that invalidate the fact the He is the Messiah?
Regarding the limited information of Jesus being taken to Allah in paradise, does it invalidate that Jesus was with Allah?

Same argument!

honesttalk21:
Which of the disciples actually witnessed the crucifixion?

John 19:25-27:
"Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's[b][/b] sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved , he said to his mother, Woman, behold your son! Then said he to the disciple, Behold your mother! And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home."

honesttalk21:
What do you know of the Basilidians and what became of them?

Are they Apostles of Jesus?
What concerns the discussion of Islam with you the Ahmadiyya or Shia or Alawites or Ismailis?
Do I impose their beliefs on you as the correct Islam?

honesttalk21:
Has Israel been established over all other nations?

Were/Are Christians in a position to taunt the Romans? Did the Romans not rule over them?
Did Nero, Decius and Valerian not severely persecute christians or Diocletian not try to eradicate them?

It seems you don't get it.
If they insisted that Jesus resurrected from the dead and died for it, why not just perfect it by saying that Jesus wasn't the one crucified but Judas or Simon or John etc. but that he disappeared to heaven.

You got no case

honesttalk21:
Does your Bible not boldly say in
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 "Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.

and

Romans 1:25, it states, “They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator?

Well you will argue that Jesus is not a creature but you commonly refer to him as second Adam yet the first Adam is created.

LOL!
How desperate have you become. You quote the same Paul that you alluded created christianity and trinity as your defence!?

Of cause, Jesus is God the Word that became perfectly human like us.
John 1:1-3 , John 1:10-11,14:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came to his own, and his own received him not. … And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, ) full of grace and truth."



Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah? Yes or No!?

Ezeama400:
If you travel to Egypt, China and other ancient countries, you will see them maintaining and preserving some of their items that have lasted more than 3000 years, and Scientists have countless of times proven the ages such itmes have lasted, is it Jesus clothes that's just 2000 years that you are doubting ? .. Smh


Don't even doubt scientists because scientists will tell you what happened thousands years ago, and will still tell you what will happen next century, including eclipse of the sun and the rest..

Scientists will use technology and tell you the position of the baby in the womb...

There are things you don't doubt

In this short life time, I have seen cloth become thread_bear and worn out over a period of time. You are just opening mouth without thinking.

TenQ:
Thanks at least for being honourable to admit that Ps 92 is not exclusively about Jesus. This was why I asked you questions about the divergences in the narrative of Ps 92 to Jesus.

Satan used the scripture because it suited his purpose. He wanted Jesus to jump down from a height where everyone would see him and know that He is the Messiah and in case Jesus doubted that his method would work, he brought out the scripture of God's promise to protect His Own from dashing his foot on the stone.

Jesus replied,
It is written, you shall not tempt the Lord your God!


According, to Allah, is it true that Jesus went to Kashmir in India, got married, had children, died and was buried?
It just again proves that just as Islam, so many cults and organisations are wishing that Jesus wasn't crucified for the sin of mankind and thus to conclude that redemption is not through Him

Can you see why you are trying too hard to correct Allah?



Even though the message of the Gospel isn't strictly exclusively ONLY about redemption through the sacrifice of Christ, In the cause of preaching, Anyone can choose to major in the minor of the gospel for the sake of increased followership and membership.



Regarding the limited information of Jesus being the Messiah in the Qur'an, does that invalidate the fact the He is the Messiah?
Regarding the limited information of Jesus being taken to Allah in paradise, does it invalidate that Jesus was with Allah?

Same argument!




John 19:25-27:
"Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's[b][/b] sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved , he said to his mother, Woman, behold your son! Then said he to the disciple, Behold your mother! And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home."



Are they Apostles of Jesus?
What concerns the discussion of Islam with you the Ahmadiyya or Shia or Alawites or Ismailis?
Do I impose their beliefs on you as the correct Islam?



It seems you don't get it.
If they insisted that Jesus resurrected from the dead and died for it, why not just perfect it by saying that Jesus wasn't the one crucified but Judas or Simon or John etc. but that he disappeared to heaven.

You got no case




LOL!
How desperate have you become. You quote the same Paul that you alluded created christianity and trinity as your defence!?

Of cause, Jesus is God the Word that became perfectly human like us.
John 1:1-3 , John 1:10-11,14:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came to his own, and his own received him not. … And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, ) full of grace and truth."



Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah? Yes or No!?

Someone is indeed having trouble booting. What has Psalm 92 got to do directly with this discussion?

Specifically you agree that Matthew 4:6 has a relation/ reference to the scripture in Psalm 91:11-12 or you rather lie that there's no relation?

Is Jesus excluded from who Psalm 91:11-12 refers to? If yes I can drop the argument.


The verse 4:157 clearly states that Jesus was neither crucified nor killed. The claim of another replacing him is not a direct interpretation of the arabic in that verse. Oh you will likely say you don't know enough arabic to discern that. What a pity.

You are the one arrogantly trying to correct Allah by rejecting his revelation.
Quran 4:155 : But for their violation of their covenant, and their denial of God’s revelations, and their killing of the prophets unjustly, and their saying, “Our minds are closed.” In fact, God has sealed them for their disbelief, so they do not believe, except for a few.

Now you confidently admit the pastors exploit the gospel for a worldly gain of followers in their church? Not followers of God seeking the everlasting salvation not just earthy?

Is the following and membership for God or the pastors church? Please don't humour too much at this point.

Limited information about Jesus being the messiah in the Quran you say yet you boast Jesus is mentioned more than prophet Muhammad pbuh isn't it? Is this your contradiction?

I don't understand your response. Does Messiah equate to the crucified? Messiah; al-Masih

One disciple is referred to. Is this one of many others? Who were these disciples that witnessed the crucifixion of Jesus according to your bible? What happened to Mary after the disciple took her to his home? Did she mourn the disgraceful death of Jesus and sorrow?

Are you an apostle of Jesus? Basilidians believe in Jesus or do you state otherwise?

You wrote that the Messiah was supposed to establish Israel over all the nations of the world well did he?

The Quran states walakin shubbiha lahum which translates to but it was made to appear so to them. This phrase implies that those who claimed they killed Jesus were under an illusion or misunderstanding it doesn't definitely say someone else or another was crucified. Again it does not definitively state that someone else was crucified in his place.

You believe in writings allegedly done by Paul and I point you to what he clearly stated which you fail to comprehend. The peak of deception is the plainly obvious one. He tells you exactly what he is doing and you still fall for it.

honesttalk21:
Someone is indeed having trouble booting. What has Psalm 92 got to do directly with this discussion?

Specifically you agree that Matthew 4:6 has a relation/ reference to the scripture in Psalm 91:11-12 or you rather lie that there's no relation?

Is Jesus excluded from who Psalm 91:11-12 refers to? If yes I can drop the argument.

You must have noticed that my reference was in error as I intended to reference Ps91 and not Ps92.
It's my error there.
Unfortunately, it doesn't change anything with what I've said because you said:

honesttalk21:
Indeed Psalm 91 isn't exclusively about Jesus however who else is documented to be tempted by Satan as reported in Mark 4:If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:He will command his angels concerning you,and they will lift you up in their hands,so that you will not strike your foot against a stone in reference to Psalm 91:11-12?

Why does only this part of Psalm 91 refer particularly to Jesus and not the rest?
...

Thus, my case is made. Correct it if you will it's Ps 91 and not Ps 92

honesttalk21:
The verse 4:157 clearly states that Jesus was neither crucified nor killed. The claim of another replacing him is not a direct interpretation of the arabic in that verse. Oh you will likely say you don't know enough arabic to discern that. What a pity.

You are the one arrogantly trying to correct Allah by rejecting his revelation.
Quran 4:155 : But for their violation of their covenant, and their denial of God’s revelations, and their killing of the prophets unjustly, and their saying, “Our minds are closed.” In fact, God has sealed them for their disbelief, so they do not believe, except for a few.

Of cause Allah aka Mohammed told a big lie in the Qur'an and couldn't even justify the lie intelligently.

Otherwise, answer my questions with details of what happened:
Let's assume that your claims are true and Jesus was neither killed nor crucified
1. Who was killed instead of Jesus?
2. Why did Allah decide to deceive Mary the mother of Jesus with ALL the disciples of Jesus with the Romans and Jews?
3. In whose presence was Jesus taken up to heaven (any evidence)?
4. Why would the Jews killed their Messiah?
5. Why did Allah wait for 600 years after creating Christianity before telling them that Jesus wasn't killed nor crucified?
6. Why would the Jews kill their Messiah?

honesttalk21:
Now you confidently admit the pastors exploit the gospel for a worldly gain of followers in their church? Not followers of God seeking the everlasting salvation not just earthy?

Is the following and membership for God or the pastors church? Please don't humour too much at this point.

As if pastors are not human beings!
When islamic clerics are performing human sacrifices to do rituals for money for their clients are they practicing Islam ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm3kt4gH1v0?si=1W6qBU__M1rYm8oI

honesttalk21:
Limited information about Jesus being the messiah in the Quran you say yet you boast Jesus is mentioned more than prophet Muhammad pbuh isn't it? Is this your contradiction?

When did you ever here me boast of the number of times Jesus appeared in the book of the Antichrist?
Answer my questions and stop running away:
Regarding the limited information of Jesus being the Messiah in the Qur'an, does that invalidate the fact the He is the Messiah?
Regarding the limited information of Jesus being taken to Allah in paradise, does it invalidate that Jesus was with Allah?

honesttalk21:
I don't understand your response. Does Messiah equate to the crucified? Messiah; al-Masih

One disciple is referred to. Is this one of many others? Who were these disciples that witnessed the crucifixion of Jesus according to your bible? What happened to Mary after the disciple took her to his home? Did she mourn the disgraceful death of Jesus and sorrow?
Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved ,

Are you Blind. I gave you the exact names of the disciples such as
1. Mary the wife of Cleophas,
2.Mary Magdalene.
3. Mary the mother of Jesus
4. One of the apostles of Jesus "John" who refers to himself as the Disciple that Jesus loved

Yes, Mary and Allah the disciples mourned the disgraceful, painful and humiliating death of Jesus Christ.

BUT after the third day, their sorrows turned to Joy because they saw the risen Christ. They stopped being afraid to witness to what they have seen. They rejoiced in the face of death proclaiming the death , resurrection and going up to heaven of Jesus.

Too bad this makes you sad!

honesttalk21:
Are you an apostle of Jesus? Basilidians believe in Jesus or do you state otherwise?

Do you Muslims also claim you believe in Jesus?
How are you different?

honesttalk21:
You wrote that the Messiah was supposed to establish Israel over all the nations of the world well did he?

Is Jesus coming back again?
Yes or No!

honesttalk21:
The Quran states walakin shubbiha lahum which translates to but it was made to appear so to them. This phrase implies that those who claimed they killed Jesus were under an illusion or misunderstanding it doesn't definitely say someone else or another was crucified. Again it does not definitively state that someone else was crucified in his place.

If the Jews experienced an illusion, then they saw something isn't it?
This illusion WAS MADE TO APPEAR to them by Allah?

Can you tell us the Illusion the Jews saw to believe that they killed Jesus!

honesttalk21:
You believe in writings allegedly done by Paul and I point you to what he clearly stated which you fail to comprehend. The peak of deception is the plainly obvious one. He tells you exactly what he is doing and you still fall for it.

I did not address what Paul wrote, I addressed your own folly.
And I asked you a simple question which you dodged. Let me present it again to you and bolded so that you won't claim you didn't see it

Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah? Yes or No!?

TenQ:
You must have noticed that my reference was in error as I intended to reference Ps91 and not Ps92.
It's my error there.
Unfortunately, it doesn't change anything with what I've said because you said:



Thus, my case is made. Correct it if you will it's Ps 91 and not Ps 92

The psalms are traditionally attributed to David, who expresses trust in God as a refuge. However, its application extends beyond David to include prophetic implications regarding Jesus Christ.

Psalm 91 is seen as having a unique fulfillment in Jesus or isn't it?

Jesus was protected from various dangers throughout His ministry such as escaping from attempts on His life from birth according to the biblical narrative.

The New Testament references these verses directly during the temptation of Christ reported in Matthew 4:6, where Satan quotes Psalm 91 to tempt Jesus into testing God’s protection.

TenQ:
a big lie in the Qur'an and couldn't even justify the lie intelligently.

Otherwise, answer my questions with details of what happened:
Let's assume that your claims are true and Jesus was neither killed nor crucified
1. Who was killed instead of Jesus?
2. Why did Allah decide to deceive Mary the mother of Jesus with ALL the disciples of Jesus with the Romans and Jews?
3. In whose presence was Jesus taken up to heaven (any evidence)?
4. Why would the Jews killed their Messiah?
5. Why did Allah wait for 600 years after creating Christianity before telling them that Jesus wasn't killed nor crucified?
6. Why would the Jews kill their Messiah?

Does the Quran say someone else was killed instead of Jesus?
The verse states it was only made to appear so.
Even those who argue for this ˹crucifixion˺ are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever—only making assumptions.

How this was made to appear is not described by Allah. That is a mystery and amongst the secrets of the unknown.

It goes on further to say those who argue have no knowledge and only make assumptions.

How many prepositions are there?
1. Allah saved him and he escaped this humiliation.
2. Simon took his semblance and was crucified.
3. Judas took his semblance and was crucified.
4. A young disciple took his semblance and was crucified.
5. He was crucified but didn't die however this negates the verse that states he was neither crucified nor killed.
6. He escaped to India
7. He escaped to France
8. He escaped to France and then to India?

3. Must Jesus have been taken up in the presence of anyone? Was Enoch taken away in the presence of anyone?
Do you demand similar proof as is the case of Elijah yet you say Jesus is greater than Elijah. Last statement derived as the opinion you profuse is that Jesus is the greatest.

4. I have answered this before. The Jews rejected him as their expected messiah and have good reason to.

The Jews stick to their rebellon against God.

5. Why will Allah wait? You ask questions of the creator beyond your person?
It's been 2000 years since the crucifixion why has Jesus not returned to fulfil what you say he left to fulfil at a later time.

2000 years compared to 600 years please which is more and should be worried about?

6. Repeating yourself in one speech for emphasis or What?

TenQ:
As if pastors are not human beings!
When islamic clerics are performing human sacrifices to do rituals for money for their clients are they practicing Islam ?

Do you have reports of Islamic clerics performing human sacrifice and stating Allah directed them to do so?

I have read a Christian cleric raping a young girl and making her abort claiming to be inspired/directed by God.
Do these clerics not tell the congregation that God is not poor to encourage them to give high value tites even from questionable sources.

TenQ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm3kt4gH1v0?si=1W6qBU__M1rYm8oI

Will address this after watching

TenQ:
When did you ever here me boast of the number of times Jesus appeared in the book of the Antichrist?
Answer my questions and stop running away:
Regarding the limited information of Jesus being the Messiah in the Qur'an, does that invalidate the fact the He is the Messiah?
Regarding the limited information of Jesus being taken to Allah in paradise, does it invalidate that Jesus was with Allah?
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Your other apologists make a lot of reference to the number of times Jesus is mentioned in the Quran compared to the mentions of prophet Muhammad pbuh.
Interesting you don't align with them here.

Now I need to clarify what you understand as the meaning of messiah as used in the Quran to answer you.

TenQ:
Are you Blind. I gave you the exact names of the disciples such as
1. Mary the wife of Cleophas,
2.Mary Magdalene.
3. Mary the mother of Jesus
4. One of the apostles of Jesus "John" who refers to himself as the Disciple that Jesus loved

Oh! Do you now say Mary the wife of Cleophad was a disciple?
Mary Magdalene too?
Mary the mother of Jesus too was a disciple?

Did the Bible not clearly say who the disciples are?

4. You say John was there yet Matthew 26:56, says all the disciples forsook him and fled. Is this not a contradiction?
Even at that why will just one out of 11 witness since the 12th is said to be the betrayer ?

Tetraozonaitera:
Good luck to you bro.

Exactly. You have no response apart from this. Good luck to you too

Nefort:
You wouldn't get any much response from christians compared to the amount of response you will get from atheists. Just try it yourself and see.

Not true.
By the way, most atheists have no time for that. I see many Christians say 'God is the best' or some other stupid shit, and other Christians would echo it. Rarely see atheists respond

Nefort:
You got the response you got because you posted it as an attention seeker. Just post it under a comment section and not as a major topic and see for yourself that nobody will bother about you.

Ok, Christians that announce 'What god cannot do does not exist' as a post, etc are attention seekers?

Nefort:
How many of them are they compared to the billions of other sane christians world worldwide? Bad people will always exist in every group. There will also be atheists who also discriminate and attack christians?

You said there were no christians attacking non christian. I showed you. Now you're saying they aren't much compared to sane christians. Who is a 'sane' christian? Do you know how much insults or curses atheists get on Nairaland from your 'sane' christians? If they meet in real life, what stops those christians from attacking the atheists? As an atheist, you can't even complain to the police that Christians or Muslims are attacking you. You'll worsen the whole matter

luluman:
No hypocrisy here, I defended christianity & not worry about the atheism just because I'm a Christian. If you are an atheist you can defend your atheism and also leave us to worry about our christianity,dont do it for us.

Again, why didn't you tell the OP to let atheists worry about the conversion?

honesttalk21:
The psalms are traditionally attributed to David, who expresses trust in God as a refuge. However, its application extends beyond David to include prophetic implications regarding Jesus Christ.

Psalm 91 is seen as having a unique fulfillment in Jesus or isn't it?

Jesus was protected from various dangers throughout His ministry such as escaping from attempts on His life from birth according to the biblical narrative.

The New Testament references these verses directly during the temptation of Christ reported in Matthew 4:6, where Satan quotes Psalm 91 to tempt Jesus into testing God’s protection.

Ps 91 applies to every one who depends on God.
QED!

Except you can show me how Jesus did not strike his foot upon the stone and show that Jesus lived to be an old man.

Other than this, you are just wasting time for the bible says that Jesus was crucified AND Jesus died AND Jesus was buried AND Jesus resurrected from the dead AND Jesus was taken up to heaven in the presence of his disciples!

honesttalk21:
Does the Quran say someone else was killed instead of Jesus?
The verse states it was only made to appear so.
Even those who argue for this ˹crucifixion˺ are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever—only making assumptions.

Here is what Sahih International translation said (is this my translation?)

Surah An-Nisa 4:157
"And [for] their saying, 'Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain."

Can you then explain the statement from Sahih International translation but [another] was made to resemble him to them. ?

honesttalk21:
How this was made to appear is not described by Allah. That is a mystery and amongst the secrets of the unknown.

Meaning that Allah aka Mohammed doesn't have any reason nor superior arguments against the statement of the bible detailing Jesus's crucifixion, death, resurrection and assumption.

honesttalk21:
It goes on further to say those who argue have no knowledge and only make assumptions.

How many prepositions are there?
1. Allah saved him and he escaped this humiliation.
2. Simon took his semblance and was crucified.
3. Judas took his semblance and was crucified.
4. A young disciple took his semblance and was crucified.
5. He was crucified but didn't die however this negates the verse that states he was neither crucified nor killed.
6. He escaped to India
7. He escaped to France
8. He escaped to France and then to India?

Of a truth, it is you Muslims who have the most of the several conjectures.
Some say Judas was the one killed
Some say it was John that was killed
Others say it was Joseph of Arimathea
And others like you don't know the answer

honesttalk21:
3. Must Jesus have been taken up in the presence of anyone? Was Enoch taken away in the presence of anyone?
Do you demand similar proof as is the case of Elijah yet you say Jesus is greater than Elijah. Last statement derived as the opinion you profuse is that Jesus is the greatest.

Is anyone disputing about Enoch? No!
But two books acclaimed to be the books of God contract each other: meaning that one of the two books is the imposter and contains lies.

Hence, except your God doesn't know exactly what happened but is himself following a conjecture or speaking outright lies, you got no case.

honesttalk21:
4. I have answered this before. The Jews rejected him as their expected messiah and have good reason to.

The Jews stick to their rebellon against God.

This wasn't the question I asked you. Listen carefully:

Allah said that the Jews SAY:
'Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.'


There can be MANY Messengers of God
HOWEVER
There can only be ONE Messiah !

And the Jews are affirmative that they killed their ONLY Messiah : Why?

honesttalk21:
5. Why will Allah wait? You ask questions of the creator beyond your person?
It's been 2000 years since the crucifixion why has Jesus not returned to fulfil what you say he left to fulfil at a later time.

2000 years compared to 600 years please which is more and should be worried about?

Jesus is waiting for the number of the Children of God will increase to His determined number. If He came almost immediately, less than 500 people would have entered paradise.

Now, answer my own questions
Why did Allah wait for 600 years for Christians whom he personally Deceived along with both the Romans and Jews BEFORE making a correction that explained NOTHING and answered NO single question to correct the deception he put them in?

honesttalk21:
6. Repeating yourself in one speech for emphasis or What?

You are feigning blind and dumb again.

Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah? Yes or No!?

honesttalk21:
Do you have reports of Islamic clerics performing human sacrifice and stating Allah directed them to do so?

I have read a Christian cleric raping a young girl and making her abort claiming to be inspired/directed by God.
Do these clerics not tell the congregation that God is not poor to encourage them to give high value tites even from questionable sources.

Ask them , aren't you the Muslim!?

honesttalk21:
Your other apologists make a lot of reference to the number of times Jesus is mentioned in the Quran compared to the mentions of prophet Muhammad pbuh.
Interesting you don't align with them here.

Now I need to clarify what you understand as the meaning of messiah as used in the Quran to answer you.

The Messiah means NOTHING in the Qur'an: it's just the title copied from the Christians who call Jesus the Messiah.

FYI: Jews Never Ever call Jesus the Messiah!

I know what the Christians and Jews mean by the term Messiah "the Anointed One" who is to Rule the earth and bring restoration and judgment to the whole world from Jerusalem for all eternity

What does Allah or Qur'an mean by the title "the Messiah"?

honesttalk21:
Oh! Do you now say Mary the wife of Cleophad was a disciple?
Mary Magdalene too?
Mary the mother of Jesus too was a disciple?

Did the Bible not clearly say who the disciples are?

Too bad that you don't know that EVERY follower of Jesus is first a Disciple. Even an Apostle is first a Disciple.

Mat 27:57:
"When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:"

honesttalk21:
4. You say John was there yet Matthew 26:56, says all the disciples forsook him and fled. Is this not a contradiction?
Even at that why will just one out of 11 witness since the 12th is said to be the betrayer ?

Common sense did not tell you that some of the Disciples who fled can return to follow Jesus so as to monitor the case of His judgement?

John 18:15-16:
"And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known to the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest. But Peter stood at the door without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known to the high priest, and spoke to her that kept the door, and brought in Peter."

Mat 26:69-75:
"Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came to him, saying, You also were with Jesus of Galilee. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what you say. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said to them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. And after a while came to him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely you also are one of them; for your speech denudes you. Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said to him, Before the cock crow, you shall deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly."

Sorry sir!