₦airaland Forum

Qasim6:
Then tell us the age of these women or what we should look for na with Bible passage you are using as reference

If a woman completed puberty lets say at age 10, are they ready for marriage?

No girl complete puberty at 10 except she has precocious puberty and that's a medical condition.

SIRTee15:
No girl complete puberty at 10 except she has precocious puberty and that's a medical condition.

Ok

And do you think what they were doing giving out "matured women" in marriage before age 15 at the start of their puberty in ancient Israel was wrong

Qasim6:
Ok

And do you think what they were doing giving out "matured women" in marriage before age 15 at the start of their puberty in ancient Israel was wrong

👍👍👍👍
This is what I want, bring evidence so we can learn.
If I reject it, I will bring my own counter evidence.
This is the strength of argument, not just rejecting because it doesn't suit your narrative.

15 is not too young get married in ancient civilization.
Most 15 yr old girls in the west already have boyfriends and some are even having sex.

However prepubertal marriage is not allowed in Jewish antiquity irrespective of circumstances.

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10435-marriage-laws

SIRTee15:
👍👍👍👍
This is what I want, bring evidence so we can learn.
If I reject it, I will bring my own counter evidence.
This is the strength of argument, not just rejecting because it doesn't suit your narrative.

15 is not too young get married in ancient civilization.
Most 15 yr old girls in the west already have boyfriends and some are even having sex.

However prepubertal marriage is not allowed in Jewish antiquity irrespective of circumstances.

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10435-marriage-laws

Suddenly, girls below age 15 that have reached puberty fall into your category of women in the ancient world.

At least we can both agree now that reaching puberty was the thin line between a girl and a woman in the ancient/mediaeval times. And we can stop our anachronistic judgemental of people of the past.

Qasim6:
Suddenly, girls below age 15 that have reached puberty fall into your category of women in the ancient world.

At least we can both agree now that reaching puberty was the thin line between a girl and a woman in the ancient/mediaeval times. And we can stop our anachronistic judgemental of people of the past.

Guy the argument here is prepubertal sex!!!
I agree things of the past should be left to the past.
But Quran claim to be eternal and that's the problem.
That's why it can't be from God. At least that surah on divorce can't be from God.
Prepubertal sex is evil.

Now let me explain why prepubertal sex is evil.

The woman is only ready for sexual intercourse when the vaginal wall has received enough estrogen to help relax the muscles and keep the environment moist, this will allow for adequate expansion and elasticity during penetrations.
Now surge of estrogen comes from the ovary with the onset of puberty.
Without the actions of this hormone, sex will be very painful to a girl, the vaginal wall may bruise or even bleed.

Same reason some menopausal women also have painful sex cos the aged ovary has stopped producing estrogen.

God in his infinite wisdom will never approve such painful action on a child just because an adult wants to derive pleasure.

SIRTee15:
Guy the argument here is prepubertal sex!!!
I agree things of the past should be left to the past.
But Quran claim to be eternal and that's the problem.
That's why it can't be from God. At least that surah on divorce can't be from God.
Prepubertal sex is evil.

Now let me explain why prepubertal sex is evil.

The woman is only ready for sexual intercourse when the vaginal wall has received enough estrogen to help relax the muscles and keep the environment moist, this will allow for adequate expansion and elasticity during penetrations.
Now surge of estrogen comes from the ovary with the onset of puberty.
Without the actions of this hormone, sex will be very painful to a girl, the vaginal wall may bruise or even bleed.

Same reason some menopausal women also have painful sex cos the aged ovary has stopped producing estrogen.

God in his infinite wisdom will never approve such painful action on a child just because an adult wants to derive pleasure.

Alaye you have used the fact that Jesus called a 12 years old talitha to counter the claim that Mary was around 12 when she became pregnant in our past discussion. Your argument then was Elizabeth called her woman. When we know in ancient Israel girls get betrothed around 12 and usually get married in a year or 2 after their betrothal.

Qur'an 64:5 used the word women and not girls, and we know there is marriageable age which have to do with having sound judgement and able to manage wealth. so I don't understand where this your 'it can't be from God' is coming from.
And I also don't understand why you are lecturing me on why prepubertal sex is evil. U can shove your lecture down your throat.

So if the Qur'an claim to be eternal it should not cater for divorce of matured women that are not seeing their periods abi wat are you talking about?

SIRTee15:
Guy defend your Qur'an. Even if Christianity is false doesn't make Islam true.
I started this conversation bocs I wanted to prove to U that Qur'an can't be from God.
This isnt about validity of Christianity.

Where did the ebionites get the message that Jesus died and resurrected on the 3rd day?
Did Allah convey the message to ISA companions that Jews didn't crucify ISA but he rescued him?
Did he tell Muslims in the first century that ISA didn't die or he waited for 600 yrs to tell Muslims.
Did ISA tell any of his companions that he is the son of GOD- metaphorical, begotten or adopted.
That's what I want to know. If Ebionites or seven sleepers are believers according to Qur'an where did they got their erroneous believe from?

If U don't have the answer, just say so and end the discussion.
Bringing Christianity to defend Islam makes no sense because U guys already said it's a false religion.
I will never use another religion to defend validity of Christianity. Straight up the bible and nothing else.

The Ebionites could have picked that up from anywhere.
Qur'an does not say a crucifixion did not take place, what Qur'an is saying is Jesus was not the one on the cross and those who differ over it are in doubt about it, that they have no certain knowledge of what happened but they were just following conjectures. And with the disparities among the gospels it is evidently clear that the writers were not eye witness to the crucifixion.

So a crucifixion did happen, but God saved him from the crucifixion just as psalm 91 prophesied.

Believing or not believing in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ for Christians before the coming of Prophet Muhammad is not what takes one out of the fold of true faith.

What we can deduce even from the pages of the new testament is that Jesus inner circle continue to follow the law which shouldn't have been the case if following the law would have meant Christ died in vain. So they did not believe in the vicarious atonement hogwash and that also reflected on the Ebionites.

For the son of God, the evidence is there in John 10. He used the term to counter the accusation of blasphemy.

Qasim6:
Alaye you have used the fact that Jesus called a 12 years old talitha to counter the claim that Mary was around 12 when she became pregnant in our past discussion. Your argument then was Elizabeth called her woman. When we know in ancient Israel girls get betrothed around 12 and usually get married in a year or 2 after their betrothal.

Qur'an 64:5 used the word women and not girls, and we know there is marriageable age which have to do with having sound judgement and able to manage wealth. so I don't understand where this your 'it can't be from God' is coming from.
And I also don't understand why you are lecturing me on why prepubertal sex is evil. U can shove your lecture down your throat.

So if the Qur'an claim to be eternal it should not cater for divorce of matured women that are not seeing their periods abi wat are you talking about?

Until U are scholastic enough to write your own Tafsir, U can shove your opinion down your throat.
Tafsir rejector.

Deal with this....if it's choking U, feel free to spit it out but FACT REMAIN FACT. TAFSIR REMAIN TAFSIR.
upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months


The evidence I brought clearly showed puberty in ancient Jewish girl is defined as 14 yrs.
Within 1-2 yrs they get married, which makes perfect sense.
The source is from Sanhedrin text itself- the ancient rabbinical codification on laws and custom.

U can move the ancient Jewish puberty to 6 if that makes U feel better and helps validate Quran, but here we dealing with facts not mere opinion.

Qasim6:
The Ebionites could have picked that up from anywhere.
Qur'an does not say a crucifixion did not take place, what Qur'an is saying is Jesus was not the one on the cross and those who differ over it are in doubt about it, that they have no certain knowledge of what happened but they were just following conjectures. And with the disparities among the gospels it is evidently clear that the writers were not eye witness to the crucifixion.



So a crucifixion did happen, but God saved him from the crucifixion just as psalm 91 prophesied.

Believing or not believing in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ for Christians before the coming of Prophet Muhammad is not what takes one out of the fold of true faith.

What we can deduce even from the pages of the new testament is that Jesus inner circle continue to follow the law which shouldn't have been the case if following the law would have meant Christ died in vain. So they did not believe in the vicarious atonement hogwash and that also reflected on the Ebionites.

For the son of God, the evidence is there in John 10. He used the term to counter the accusation of blasphemy.

What about resssurection? Who told the Ebionites that Jesus resurrected. Where did the belief come from?
Did Allah convey his message to the inner circle that he saved ISA or he waited for 600 yrs to correct the confusion he himself created.

Muslims are very funny. U people will accuse Christians of using vague passages to explain trinity or deity of Christ and demand explicit verses where these doctrines are defined but here U are desperately holding into a vague passage to explain Son of God; when we have clear explicit passages where Jesus himself defined Son of GOD- but of course those passages must be corrupt according to Muslims.

I brought one already and here's another
John 5.23
That all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
John 3.16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

But of course the above are corrupt verses according to Qasim.

Now to John 10. The vague passage

Jesus said I and Father are one.
The ignorant Jews concluded that was blasphemy because he was claiming to be God
Jesus referred them to their scriptures where they were called gods- God made man in his image. The spirit of man is the image of God. So every human has a reflection of God in them.
And above is not blasphemy.
Now Jesus asked them that If above is true and it's not blasphemy how much more the Person God set apart as his very own and sent into the world? v36
What does the highlighted mean- John 3.16, Luke 22.60, Mark 14.16

SIRTee15:
Until U are scholastic enough to write your own Tafsir, U can shove your opinion down your throat.
Tafsir rejector.

Deal with this....if it's choking U, feel free to spit it out but FACT REMAIN FACT. TAFSIR REMAIN TAFSIR.
upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months


The evidence I brought clearly showed puberty in ancient Jewish girl is defined as 14 yrs.
Within 1-2 yrs they get married, which makes perfect sense.
The source is from Sanhedrin text itself- the ancient rabbinical codification on laws and custom.

U can move the ancient Jewish puberty to 6 if that makes U feel better and helps validate Quran, but here we dealing with facts not mere opinion.

You can call me whatever you like, I'm not just going to swallow any Tafsir thrown at me like a zombie.

I believe the best way to understand the Qur'an is using the Qur'an to explain the Qur'an then the Hadith then Tafsirs.

Why am I not even suprised you are calling me Tafsir rejector, u swallowed a man-made doctrine formed over 300 years after Jesus.
Na, I don't do blind faith.

Qasim6:
You can call me whatever you like, I'm not just going to swallow any Tafsir thrown at me like a zombie.

I believe the best way to understand the Qur'an is using the Qur'an to explain the Qur'an then the Hadith then Tafsirs.

Why I'm not even suprised you are calling me Tafsir rejector, u swallowed a man-made doctrine formed over 300 years after Jesus.
Na, I don't do blind faith.

Why not bring a Tafsir that agrees with U. Or U mean none of your scholars agree with your pattern of reasoning.
If that's the case, then that's very serious....

U better don't bring the hadith up...or U just going to make things worse for your Allah and his Qur'an!!!

The most intelligent Muslim after Muhammed himself.

Anyway back to story of the men in the cave.
Why are they following Jesus in the first place?

I thought Jesus was only sent to the Israelites.
And the Qur'an confirms a prophet is only sent to his own people in their own language, and only Muhammed is sent to the whole world.
Then why are natives of Ephesus following Jesus?
Are they not suppose to follow the prophet Allah sent to them in Ephesus or Ancient minor.
Why did they ignore their own prophet Allah sent to them in their own language and followed a prophet sent only to the Jews.

SIRTee15:
Why not bring a Tafsir that agrees with U. Or U mean none of your scholars agree with your pattern of reasoning.
If that's the case, then that's very serious....

U better don't bring the hadith up...or U just going to make things worse for your Allah and his Qur'an!!!

The most intelligent Muslim after Muhammed himself.

Anyway back to story of the men in the cave.
Why are they following Jesus in the first place?

I thought Jesus was only sent to the Israelites.
And the Qur'an confirms a prophet is only sent to his own people in their own language, and only Muhammed is sent to the whole world.
Then why are natives of Ephesus following Jesus?
Are they not suppose to follow the prophet Allah sent to them in Ephesus or Ancient minor.
Why did they ignore their own prophet Allah sent to them in their own language and followed a prophet sent only to the Jews.

Maybe you should first explain why Jesus said He was only sent to the lost sheep of house of Israel, also making sure to warn the apostles not to go into the ways of the gentiles.

Did he forget his mission when he was making that statement? Cos I will be worried if someone that came for my salvation exclude me that way.

I'll be waiting for your beautiful spin though.

SIRTee15:
What about resssurection? Who told the Ebionites that Jesus resurrected. Where did the belief come from?
Did Allah convey his message to the inner circle that he saved ISA or he waited for 600 yrs to correct the confusion he himself created.

It is plainly there in Psalm 91 that nothing will happen to him that he will not even dash his foot against a stone. But somehow you want us to believe that same person was beaten, nailed to a cross and pierced with a spear. and because u don't want the Bible to explain the Bible to you, you will rather cling to a problematic Isaiah 53.

Qur'an is just confirming that God kept his promise to the Messiah.

Those prophecies are not in there for decorations hope you know?

SIRTee15:
Muslims are very funny. U people will accuse Christians of using vague passages to explain trinity or deity of Christ and demand explicit verses where these doctrines are defined but here U are desperately holding into a vague passage to explain Son of God; when we have clear explicit passages where Jesus himself defined Son of GOD- but of course those passages must be corrupt according to Muslims.

I brought one already and here's another
John 5.23
That all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
John 3.16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

But of course the above are corrupt verses according to Qasim.

Now to John 10. The vague passage

Jesus said I and Father are one.
The ignorant Jews concluded that was blasphemy because he was claiming to be God
Jesus referred them to their scriptures where they were called gods- God made man in his image. The spirit of man is the image of God. So every human has a reflection of God in them.
And above is not blasphemy.
Now Jesus asked them that If above is true and it's not blasphemy how much more the Person God set apart as his very own and sent into the world? v36
What does the highlighted mean- John 3.16, Luke 22.60, Mark 14.16

No, the passage is not vague, you are only pretending as if you don't understand what was going on there.

The passage Jesus was directing them to was psalm 82:6
“I said, ‘You are “gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.’

And he was telling them he is only claiming to be son of God.
Your God was denying to be God.

Qasim6:
It is plainly there in Psalm 91 that nothing will happen to him that he will not even dash his foot against a stone. But somehow you want us to believe that same person was beaten, nailed to a cross and pierced with a spear. and because u don't want the Bible to explain the Bible to you, you will rather cling to a problematic Isaiah 53.



Qur'an is just confirming that God kept his promise to the Messiah.

Those prophecies are not in there for decorations hope you know?

That is not my question.
Stop answering what I didn't ask U.
Did Allah inform the ebionites and Jesus inner circle that Jesus didn't die thus issue of resssurection is a fallacy.
How did ebionites come about believing in the resssurection of Jesus if it never happened.
Did Allah reveal to the true Muslims that Jesus never died and this could t have resurrected.
If the bible points towards Allah saving ISA, then why did his companions erroneously thought he died and resurrected.
Where did they get that knowledge from?
This is my question.

Qasim6:
No, the passage is not vague, you are only pretending as if you don't understand what was going on there.

The passage Jesus was directing them to was psalm 82:6
“I said, ‘You are “gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.’

And he was telling them he is only claiming to be son of God.
Your God was denying to be God.

Ok let me debate U on this...let me show U we Christians don't shy from our scriptures.
There are clear explicit passages in the gospel where Jesus defined Son of God but of course Qasim will reject it.
But to show that we Christians can defend all verses in our scriptures standing alone without ducking to other verses to safe face, I will take U on it.
All U ve done so far in this debate is either avoid difficult questions, deflect it or flatly denied your books.

Ok
Is Jesus claiming to be Son of God just like the Jews? The answer is No.

Psalm 82 refers to mortal sinful men as gods. That shows how elevated Man is in God's presence.

The psalmist have this to say about mere Man...
Psalm 8
what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?

5 You have made them a little lower than Elohim
and crowned them with glory and honor.
6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their feet: all flocks and herds,



Man is suppose to dominate here on earth, everything should be under our control here on earth.
because we are made in the image of God, we are suppose to reign supreme on earth just like God reign supreme in heaven and the universe. Bible says we will even judge angels.

1 Corinthians 6
Do you not know that we shall judge the angels? How much more, then, the things of this life!

Man is a powerful being, he's not ordinary; and that's what Jesus is pointing out for the Jews...they are mortal men but are highly placed in the hierarchy of authority.
Psalm 82.1 says ..
God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

The ""gods" in that verse is Man if he knows what he's doing.

Man should be responsible before God to judge on his behalf. Man is meant to make right and sound judgement just like God would if He were in their place. In this sense we are called "gods."


However due to the fallen state of Man, the sons of God in psalm 82 didn't judge right, they were wicked and oppressive- that can't be Jesus
The sons of God in the chapter walked in darkness, know nothing and understand nothing - that cannot be Jesus.
They were condemned and told they will die like mortals- both bible and Quran agree Jesus is alive.

Thus Jesus cannot be lumped amongst the sons of God in psalm 82 and Jesus will never use such despicable attributes to describe himself.
The sons of God in Psalm 82 were the Jews, not Jesus Christ.

Jesus then made His point: "If the Scripture calls mere sinful men 'gods- with all those powerful attributes' (and the Scripture cannot be broken), then how can I be wrong to call Myself 'God'? If men are called 'gods' in Psalm 82:6, then how can it be blasphemy for the SON OF GOD to be called 'God'?"
Notice what Jesus says about Himself in John 10:36:
He is the One that God the Father has sanctified (set apart in a very special way). Jesus Christ is the Unique One. There is no One like Him!
He is the One whom God has sent into the world. He came from God!
He claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:36). And the Jews knew that when a person claimed to be the Son of God He was claiming to be equal with God.

John 5.17
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Quite lengthy but I hope even U will learn one or two things about who you are as a Man and not just slave slave the Qur'an wants to turn everybody into...
You are not a slave, U are a powerful being.

That's why most times when U quote the scripture, I just ignore it because it's so obvious U don't know what U taking about.

SIRTee15:
That's why most times when U quote the scripture, I just ignore it because it's so obvious U don't know what U taking about.

no be lie you talk he always like to turn bible upside down just see quote

Qasim6:
It is plainly there in Psalm 91 that nothing will happen to him that he will not even dash his foot against a stone. But somehow you want us to believe that same person was beaten, nailed to a cross and pierced with a spear. and because u don't want the Bible to explain the Bible to you, you will rather cling to a problematic Isaiah 53.

so now he is trying to call prophet Isaiah a liar


He knowledge of the bible is 0% he knows nothing about the bible

Kingsempires:
no be lie you talk he always like to turn bible upside down just see quote so now he is trying to call prophet Isaiah a liar


He knowledge of the bible is 0% he knows nothing about the bible

I am not calling a prophet of God a liar, and I will never do that

Did Jesus name or Messiah appear anywhere in Isaiah 53?
Isaiah 53 clearly states the suffering servant will live long to see his offspring.
Did Jesus have offspring? If he didn't have offspring then Isaiah 53 can't be about him.

And psalm 91 was thrown at Jesus in gospel according to Matthew. He was asked to jump off a cliff.

Mat 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “’He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”

This is a clear reference to psalm 91, when we go to psalm 91 we see it is talking about someone that will be in trouble and God will save him, this individual won't even dash his foot against a stone not to talk of being beaten, nailed to a cross, and pierced with a spear. This prophecy also clearly have the name of Jesus (that we can say the prophecy is probably foreshadowing his name)

So what we have in our hands are two prophecies that are at loggerheads and can't be of the same person because one is about a suffering servant and the other is about someone that won't suffer.

As a rational human being that I am, I'll be going with Psalm 91 and these are my reasons

- It was thrown at Jesus, He did not deny it was about him.(infact he seems to have have confirmed it was about him with his response)
- this prophecy foreshadows his name.
- the prophecy line up to what happened to him at a later time (him being scared of wat is going to happen to him and praying to God to turn the cup away from him in Gethsemane)
- and my personal bias as a Muslim because we believe he was actually saved from the crucifixion because that's what our Qur'an tell us.

If you believe Isaiah 53 is about him and not psalm 91 or you believe you can reconcile both prophecies to be about him kindly let me know how you reach that conclusion, You can also call your champion SIRTee15 that feels I don't know what I'm taking about at times when I'm quoting the Bible. Not that you will just be accusing me of calling a Prophet of God a liar.

SIRTee15:
So iddah is for reconciliation...hmmm
Tell me, then why do widows practice iddah?

Sorry to inform you that

Within Islamic law, the waiting period (iddah) serves various purposes and can take different forms depending on the circumstances of the marriage. The iddah period is designed to ensure that the rights of all parties involved are protected, provide time for reflection, and allow for the possibility of reconciliation.

Different forms of iddah serve different purposes, including giving room for reconciliation. Here are some common forms of iddah and their purposes:

1. Iddah of a Divorced Woman: This is the most common form of iddah and applies to women who have been divorced by their husbands. The purpose of this iddah is to ensure that the woman is not pregnant, provide time for emotional healing, and give both parties an opportunity to reconsider the divorce and potentially reconcile.

2. Iddah of a Widow: This form of iddah applies to women whose husbands have passed away. The purpose of this iddah is to confirm the widow's pregnancy status, allow time for mourning and emotional healing, and provide a period of adjustment before considering remarriage.

3. Iddah of a Woman Whose Marriage Has Not Been Consummated: This form of iddah applies to women whose marriages have not been consummated. The purpose of this iddah is to confirm the woman's pregnancy status, allow time for reflection and consideration, and provide an opportunity for reconciliation if desired. This tests the veracity of the claim of non consummation.

4. Iddah of a Woman Who is Pregnant: This form of iddah applies to pregnant women who are either divorced or widowed. The purpose of this iddah is to confirm the woman's pregnancy status, ensure the child's lineage is established, and provide time for emotional healing and preparation for childbirth.

Overall, the different forms of iddah in Islam serve specific purposes tailored to the circumstances of the marriage or situation. They provide a period of reflection, healing, and adjustment, and they also allow for the possibility of reconciliation between the parties involved. The iddah period is designed to uphold the rights and dignity of individuals involved in marital relationships and to facilitate a respectful and dignified process in case of divorce or widowhood.

Qasim6:
I am not calling a prophet of God a liar, and I will never do that

Did Jesus name or Messiah appear anywhere in Isaiah 53?
Isaiah 53 clearly states the suffering servant will live long to see his offspring.
Did Jesus have offspring? If he didn't have offspring then Isaiah 53 can't be about him.

so who was prophet Isaiah referring to ?

And psalm 91 was thrown at Jesus in gospel according to Matthew. He was asked to jump off a cliff.

Mat 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “’He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”[/quote]so what was Jesus answer to mat 4;6


This is a clear reference to psalm 91, when we go to psalm 91 we see it is talking about someone that will be in trouble and God will save him, this individual won't even dash his foot against a stone not to talk of being beaten, nailed to a cross, and pierced with a spear. This prophecy also clearly have the name of Jesus (that we can say the prophecy is probably foreshadowing his name)

So what we have in our hands are two prophecies that are at loggerheads and can't be of the same person because one is about a suffering servant and the other is about someone that won't suffer.

As a rational human being that I am, I'll be going with Psalm 91 and these are my reasons

- It was thrown at Jesus, He did not deny it was about him.(infact he seems to have have confirmed it was about him with his response)
- this prophecy foreshadows his name.
- the prophecy line up to what happened to him at a later time (him being scared of wat is going to happen to him and praying to God to turn the cup away from him in Gethsemane)
- and my personal bias as a Muslim because we believe he was actually saved from the crucifixion because that's what our Qur'an tell us.

If you believe Isaiah 53 is about him and not psalm 91 or you believe you can reconcile both prophecies to be about him kindly let me know how you reach that conclusion, You can also call your champion SIRTee15 that feels I don't know what I'm taking about at times when I'm quoting the Bible. Not that you will just be accusing me of calling a Prophet of God a liar.[/quote]so now the scenario is that Jesus didn't die on the cross that is non sense after all psalm 91 didn't call messiah or Jesus so you failed that one Wolfy

SIRTee15:
That is not my question.
Stop answering what I didn't ask U.
Did Allah inform the ebionites and Jesus inner circle that Jesus didn't die thus issue of ressurection is a fallacy.
How did ebionites come about believing in the ressurection of Jesus if it never happened.
Did Allah reveal to the true Muslims that Jesus never died and this could t have resurrected.
If the bible points towards Allah saving ISA, then why did his companions erroneously thought he died and resurrected.
Where did they get that knowledge from?
This is my question.

Well, It's because you are not connecting the dot, that's the reason u feel I am not answering your question.

Your erroneous conclusion that we know what the apostles actually believed is because you are assuming all the books of the new testament were actually written by the authors that are ascribed to them, unfortunately out of all the 27 books therein scholars believe only 7 were correctly ascribed, the rest are likely forgeries. And all the 7 are Paul's, so not even all the books ascribed to Paul are believed to have been written by Paul.
It is not the Muslims that are saying this o, it is New testament scholars.

And there are strong indications that some of these Apostles actually did write, for example the Hebrew gospel written by Matthew, the gospel written by Mark that was also described by Papias in such a way that it is different from the Mark gospel we ended up with. But these documents did not survive.

So how do we know for certainty what the Apostles believed or did not believe if we are not sure we have anything from them?

And for the Ebionites, most of what we know about them are from what the gentile Christians in around 3rd - 4th century wrote about the Ebionites of their time.

I'm sorry, I'm going to take God's word over the testimony of all the people in this world. The reason why I was referencing Psalm 91 and the Qur'an confirming it.

SIRTee15:
Ok let me debate U on this...let me show U we Christians don't shy from our scriptures.
There are clear explicit passages in the gospel where Jesus defined Son of God but of course Qasim will reject it.
But to show that we Christians can defend all verses in our scriptures standing alone without ducking to other verses to safe face, I will take U on it.
All U ve done so far in this debate is either avoid difficult questions, deflect it or flatly denied your books.

Ok
Is Jesus claiming to be Son of God just like the Jews? The answer is No.

Psalm 82 refers to mortal sinful men as gods. That shows how elevated Man is in God's presence.

The psalmist have this to say about mere Man...
Psalm 8
what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?

5 You have made them a little lower than Elohim
and crowned them with glory and honor.
6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their feet: all flocks and herds,



Man is suppose to dominate here on earth, everything should be under our control here on earth.
because we are made in the image of God, we are suppose to reign supreme on earth just like God reign supreme in heaven and the universe. Bible says we will even judge angels.

1 Corinthians 6
Do you not know that we shall judge the angels? How much more, then, the things of this life!

Man is a powerful being, he's not ordinary; and that's what Jesus is pointing out for the Jews...they are mortal men but are highly placed in the hierarchy of authority.
Psalm 82.1 says ..
God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

The ""gods" in that verse is Man if he knows what he's doing.

Man should be responsible before God to judge on his behalf. Man is meant to make right and sound judgement just like God would if He were in their place. In this sense we are called "gods."


However due to the fallen state of Man, the sons of God in psalm 82 didn't judge right, they were wicked and oppressive- that can't be Jesus
The sons of God in the chapter walked in darkness, know nothing and understand nothing - that cannot be Jesus.
They were condemned and told they will die like mortals- both bible and Quran agree Jesus is alive.

Thus Jesus cannot be lumped amongst the sons of God in psalm 82 and Jesus will never use such despicable attributes to describe himself.
The sons of God in Psalm 82 were the Jews, not Jesus Christ.

Jesus then made His point: "If the Scripture calls mere sinful men 'gods- with all those powerful attributes' (and the Scripture cannot be broken), then how can I be wrong to call Myself 'God'? If men are called 'gods' in Psalm 82:6, then how can it be blasphemy for the SON OF GOD to be called 'God'?"
Notice what Jesus says about Himself in John 10:36:
He is the One that God the Father has sanctified (set apart in a very special way). Jesus Christ is the Unique One. There is no One like Him!
He is the One whom God has sent into the world. He came from God!
He claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:36). And the Jews knew that when a person claimed to be the Son of God He was claiming to be equal with God.

John 5.17
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Quite lengthy but I hope even U will learn one or two things about who you are as a Man and not just slave slave the Qur'an wants to turn everybody into...
You are not a slave, U are a powerful being.

That's why most times when U quote the scripture, I just ignore it because it's so obvious U don't know what U taking about.

That's a beautiful preaching Pastor Sirtee, unfortunately today is not sunday you can wait till tomorrow.

I flatly denied our Books you say? Can I just bring the writings of any of the early church fathers to you then impose it on you? because that's exactly what you are doing with the Tafsir
And which difficult questions did I avoid?

And I really don't think all these your stories and preaching is necessary.

By the statement
"I and the Father are one"
Was Jesus claiming to be God?

If He was, were the Jews right to have accused him of blasphemy based on the fact that this is a man in front of them claiming to be God?

[

Qasim6:
Well, It's because you are not connecting the dot, that's the reason u feel I am not answering your question.

Your erroneous conclusion that we know what the apostles actually believed is because you are assuming all the books of the new testament were actually written by the authors that are ascribed to them, unfortunately out of all the 27 books therein scholars believe only 7 were correctly ascribed, the rest are likely forgeries. And all the 7 are Paul's, so not even all the books ascribed to Paul are believed to have been written by Paul.
It is not the Muslims that are saying this o, it is New testament scholars.

Ok fine. If U want to base your validity of the scriotue on evidence from NT scholars then U have to apply smart principle fully and to the Qur'an.
NT scholars unanimously agree that Jesus was crucified and that John the baptist baptised Jesus.
Do U accept their claim.

Non Muslim Quranic scholars also claim the Qur'an has myths and legends in it and that the injil and Torah mentioned in the Quran is the same as the gospel and Torah with the Christians and Jews.

Do U agree with them?

Is u disagree, why then do U want me to accept the claims of NT scholars blankly without any counterevidence.

We have the writings of the early church fathers which prove the 27 books have the correct authors ascribed to them.
Why should I believe NT scholars over church fathers?
If U insist that the authority of NT scholars override that of religious leaders, then same should apply to U.
Simple.

Qasim6:
And there are strong indications that some of these Apostles actually did write, for example the Hebrew gospel written by Matthew, the gospel written by Mark that was also described by Papias in such a way that it is different from the Mark gospel we ended up with. But these documents did not survive.

So how do we know for certainty what the Apostles believed or did not believe if we are not sure we have anything from them?

Evidence from apostolic fathers and early church leaders as far back as 90 AD confirms the authenticity of the NT.
U can bring up anyone of the NT books and will give U evidence of it's authenticity from the early church fathers.

Qasim6:
And for the Ebionites, most of what we know about them are from what the gentile Christians in around 3rd - 4th century wrote about the Ebionites of their time.

U very funny. U know nothing about the ebionites outside of what that early church fathers wrote about them. And stop lying church fathers as back as early 2nd century wrote about them.
Now when what's written about them goes with your narrative, then that's true; BUT when it's not convenient then they must be lying against ebionites.
How are U even sure ebionites ever existed, they could have made them up to counter heresy flying around.

Qasim6:
I'm sorry, I'm going to take God's word over the testimony of all the people in this world. The reason why I was referencing Psalm 91 and the Qur'an confirming it.

Let's start with who wrote the book of Psalm?

Qasim6:
That's a beautiful preaching Pastor Sirtee, unfortunately today is not sunday you can wait till tomorrow.

I flatly denied our Books you say? Can I just bring the writings of any of the early church fathers to you then impose it on you? because that's exactly what you are doing with the Tafsir
And which difficult questions did I avoid?

How come Allah didn't know anything about Gene cloning?
Why should Allah dependent on a spouse to have a Son?

The problem is we don't regard early church fathers as authority. But the Tafsir is regarded as authority in Islam.
We Christians believe in Trinity and deity of Christ because it's in the scriptures and the early Jewish sect confirmed it. Not because some 360 old men raised their hands and voted Yes in a church building in the 4th century.
Nobody in Christianity cares about Nicene creed. It's irrelevant to our belief. If whatever they believe didn't come from the scripture we will reject it.
There were numerous councils by church fathers in that period including praying for saints, purgatory etc majority of Christians rejected it because it's not in the bible.

Qasim6:
And I really don't think all these your stories and preaching is necessary.

By the statement
"I and the Father are one"
Was Jesus claiming to be God?

If He was, were the Jews right to have accused him of blasphemy based on the fact that this is a man in front of them claiming to be God?

Did U read my text at all. Did U comprehend it.
It's one thing to understand and reject but it's another thing not to understand at all.
Did U understand my text because if U do, U won't be asking this question again.

Jesus told the Jews that the scriptures say they are gods, elevated to a status just below Elohim and they sit in assembly of God's judgement.
And above is not blasphemy because it's in the scripture.

So how then is it blasphemy for the Son of God to claim higher authority? How is it blasphemy for the Son of God to be one with his Father when mere men are just below Elohim in authority.

The divinity in the Father is the same divinity in Jesus Christ.
Col 2.9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

That's the message, whether they got it or not is up to them.

Qasim6:
Maybe you should first explain why Jesus said He was only sent to the lost sheep of house of Israel, also making sure to warn the apostles not to go into the ways of the gentiles.

Did he forget his mission when he was making that statement? Cos I will be worried if someone that came for my salvation exclude me that way.

I'll be waiting for your beautiful spin though.

Stop deviating. ISA was sent to the people of Israel not people of Asia minor.
How come people from Ephesus are called Christians. Why are they following Messiah sent only to the Israelites according to your Qur'an?

Stop ducking to the bible. Even if Christianity is wrong, that doesn't make Islam right.

How come we are finding followers of ISA amongst gentiles.

SIRTee15:
How come Allah didn't know anything about Gene cloning?
Why should Allah dependent on a spouse to have a Son?

If God the Father decides to clone himself to give us God the son, then that son is still going to be a creation of the Father because he would have been willed into existence by the Father and Qur'an 39:4 already negate that possibility

"Had Allah Willed to have a son, He could have chosen whatever He willed of His creation. Glory be to Him! He is Allah—the One, the Supreme."

Here, Allah is telling us if He will it, of cos He can do it. But He is not doing it because it is not in His nature to have a son.

So don't bother to argue Allah does not know the possibilities of having a son by cloning or whatever.

SIRTee15:
Ok fine. If U want to base your validity of the scriotue on evidence from NT scholars then U have to apply smart principle fully and to the Qur'an.
NT scholars unanimously agree that Jesus was crucified and that John the baptist baptised Jesus.
Do U accept their claim.

Non Muslim Quranic scholars also claim the Qur'an has myths and legends in it and that the injil and Torah mentioned in the Quran is the same as the gospel and Torah with the Christians and Jews.

Do U agree with them?

Is u disagree, why then do U want me to accept the claims of NT scholars blankly without any counterevidence.

We have the writings of the early church fathers which prove the 27 books have the correct authors ascribed to them.
Why should I believe NT scholars over church fathers?
If U insist that the authority of NT scholars override that of religious leaders, then same should apply to U.
Simple.


Evidence from apostolic fathers and early church leaders as far back as 90 AD confirms the authenticity of the NT.
U can bring up anyone of the NT books and will give U evidence of it's authenticity from the early church fathers.

U very funny. U know nothing about the ebionites outside of what that early church fathers wrote about them. And stop lying church fathers as back as early 2nd century wrote about them.
Now when what's written about them goes with your narrative, then that's true; BUT when it's not convenient then they must be lying against ebionites.
How are U even sure ebionites ever existed, they could have made them up to counter heresy flying around.

I don't just swallow whatever the scholars are saying I am not that biased. I know how badly they want to tear apart supernatural claims and the likes.

A man that lived 2000yrs ago, with all those crucifixion stories around him. What exactly do you want them to conclude? He flew to heaven alive?

Of course I will apply same principle fully to the Qur'an. The worst any scholar can say is the Qur'an we read today goes back to Uthman council. And that is enough for me, I go use faith carry the remaining. There are some among them that have argued that the Qur'an was probably written by a council during the Abbasid caliphate, but the presence of manuscripts that even date back to the life time of the Prophet have put that claim to shame.

Just give me early church fathers that confirmed these 2 gospels Mark and Matthew. If Matthew wrote Matthew and Mark wrote Mark, What that would mean for me is Jesus Disciples that lived and walked with him actually did believe he was crucified.

Iraneous was the first to write about them and he lived 130 - 202 CE, so he probably wrote around mid to late 2nd century so I'm not that far off.

Who wrote about them in the early 2nd century?

SIRTee15:
We Christians believe in Trinity and deity of Christ because it's in the scriptures and the early Jewish sect confirmed it. Not because some 360 old men raised their hands and voted Yes in a church building in the 4th century.
Nobody in Christianity cares about Nicene creed. It's irrelevant to our belief. If whatever they believe didn't come from the scripture we will reject it.
There were numerous councils by church fathers in that period including praying for saints, purgatory etc majority of Christians rejected it because it's not in the bible.

One of these days, you will show me that trinity in the scripture. Not for argument sake, I just want to know how you trinitarians deal with verses like these emphasizing God's singular nature.

Deuteronomy 4:35: "You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other."

Isaiah 45:5: "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God."

Exodus 20:3: "You shall have no other gods before me."

Psalm 86:10: "You are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God."

Psalm 83:18: "Let them know that you, whose name is the Lord—that you alone are the Most High over all the earth."

And with Jesus that y'all claimed to be part of that God making statement like this

John 20:17: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Luke 22:42: Father if you are willing, take this cup from me, yet not my will, but yours be done.

John 17:3: Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

And the ancient Jewish sect that confirms the triune God and the prophetic authority they had.

SIRTee15:
Stop deviating. ISA was sent to the people of Israel not people of Asia minor.
How come people from Ephesus are called Christians. Why are they following Messiah sent only to the Israelites according to your Qur'an?

Stop ducking to the bible. Even if Christianity is wrong, that doesn't make Islam right.

How come we are finding followers of ISA amongst gentiles.

I already showed you in your scripture where Prophet Isa clearly states He was only sent to the Israelites confirming what the Qur'an says about his mission.

So the fact that his message spread to Ephesus after he left is not his fault in any way.

And yes if Christianity is wrong that automatically make Islam right.

Because if both are wrong that implies God has failed in his promise.

The promise he made to Abraham
"and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”

He has failed with that Individual he promised to send to the whole world.
That servant of Isaiah 42, the son of man of Daniel, the prophet like Moses of Deut 18:18, Desire of all nation of Haggai 2:7

And we both know God can't fail with his promise.

Qasim6:
I already showed you in your scripture where Prophet Isa clearly states He was only sent to the Israelites confirming what the Qur'an says about his mission.

So the fact that his message spread to Ephesus after he left is not his fault in any way.

So there's nothing wrong in gentiles following Jesus? There's nothing wrong in gentiles believing the gospel of Jesus?
because according to the our book U quoting, Jesus said..
Mathew 26.13
Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
Mathew 24.14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Even Gentiles confirm Christ is the saviour of the world when he preached to them...
John 4.42
They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

As u can see, Jesus made it clear his message is for the whole world and the Quran seem to validate it.

Now U still haven't answered my question, U are deflecting it. If U don't know, say I don't know.

Why did the natives of Ephesus choose to follow a prophet sent to the Jews instead of following the prophet Allah sent to them?
Qur'an called them believers despite following the prophet that wasn't sent to them , does it mean
anybody that followed Jesus is a believer according to the Qur'an even if he's a gentile.

Qasim6:
And yes if Christianity is wrong that automatically make Islam right.

Because if both are wrong that implies God has failed in his promise.

U gotta be kidding me, most absurd and ridiculous statement I have ever heard. No wonder U failed woefully to defend the Qur'an in this debate but will quickly duck to the bible because in your thinking if I can prove the bible wrong then Quran is right.

There many other ABRAHAMIC religions- what happened to Bahia faith, what happened to The Mormons, Sikhism and even judiasm- who still await the Messiah.
What about Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and even African traditional religion. What evidence do U have that Orunmila and his divine oracle is not from God?

How do U even know the Abrahamic religion has the true God. How do U know what is written in the bible is from the Only true God.
There was monotheistic faith 1000 yrs b4 Abraham even came on stage and that deity is not God of the bible.
People had been worshipping Only One deity- monotheism for a thousand years before Abraham said he was called by YAHWEH as the only true God.
So how do U know Abraham was right and those b4 him were wrong.

I now understand your problem. Your faith is based on refuting Christianity, then adopting the next similar religion to it.
U don't even know enough about your Qur'an to defend it convincingly.
Your theological foundation is poor. Your faith is blind.

I think our next debate should actually be Why is the God of the Abrahamic religion the True God. What evidence do we have to prove that the God called ELOHIM OR WHO REVEALED HIMSELF AS YHWH is the Only True God.
We need to go back to the foundation first b4 all these structure we are building.

Qasim6:
The promise he made to Abraham
"and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”

He has failed with that Individual he promised to send to the whole world.
That servant of Isaiah 42, the son of man of Daniel, the prophet like Moses of Deut 18:18, Desire of all nation of Haggai 2:7

And we both know God can't fail with his promise.

This is a waste of time. I already debunked Son of Man in Daniel, whether U accept evidence of ancient Jewish text and from Jesus own word is your business.
Unless U can bring a counter evidence, pls don't go back to that passage.

Next I will debunk the prophet like Moses. He's Jesus and can never be Muhammed.

I will also debunk the lies that the blessing of Abraham via his offspring can never be Muhammed.

But most importantly we need to establish and produce evidence that the God of the Abrahamic religion is the only True God.
Why is other deity before Abrahim and after him false even if they are monotheism.

SIRTee15:
So there's nothing wrong in gentiles following Jesus? There's nothing wrong in gentiles believing the gospel of Jesus?
because according to the our book U quoting, Jesus said..
Mathew 26.13
Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
Mathew 24.14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Even Gentiles confirm Christ is the saviour of the world when he preached to them...
John 4.42
They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

U still haven't answered my question, U are deflecting it. If U don't know, say I don't know.

Why did the natives of Ephesus choose to follow a prophet sent to the Jews instead of following the prophet Allah sent to them?
Qur'an called them believers despite following the prophet that wasn't sent to them , does it mean
anybody that followed Jesus at that time is a believer according to the Qur'an even if he's a gentile.


U gotta be kidding me, most absurd and ridiculous statement I have ever heard. No wonder U failed woefully to defend the Qur'an in this debate but will quickly duck to the bible because in your thinking if I can prove the bible wrong then Quran is right.

There many other ABRAHAMIC religions- what happened to Bahia faith, what happened to The Mormons, Sikhism and even judiasm- who still await the Messiah.
What about Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and even African traditional religion. What evidence do U have that Orunmila and his divine oracle is not from God?

How do U even know the Abrahamic religion has the true God. How do U know what is written in the bible is from the Only true God.
There was monotheistic faith 1000 yrs b4 Abraham even came on stage and that deity is not God of the bible.
People had been worshipping Only One deity for a thousand years before Abraham said he was called by YAHWEH as the only true God.
So how do U know Abraham was right and those b4 him were wrong.

I now understand your problem. Your faith is based on refuting Christianity, then adopting the next similar religion to it.
U don't even know enough about your Qur'an to defend it convincingly.
Your theological foundation is poor. Your faith is blind.

I think our next debate should actually be Why is the God of the Abrahamic religion the True God. What evidence do we have to prove that the God called ELOHIM OR WHO REVEALED HIMSELF AS YHWH is the Only True God.
We need to go back to the foundation first b4 all these structure we are building.


This is a waste of time. I already debunked Son of Man in Daniel, whether U accept evidence of ancient Jewish text and from Jesus own word is your business.
Unless U can bring a counter evidence, pls don't go back to that passage.

Next I will debunk the prophet like Moses. He's Jesus and can never be Muhammed.

I will also debunk the lies that the blessing of Abraham via his offspring can never be Muhammed.

But most importantly we need to establish and produce evidence that the God of the Abrahamic religion is the only True God.
Why is other deity before Abrahim and after him false even if they are monotheism.

how far you still dey argue with this Imam

Kingsempires:
how far you still dey argue with this Imam

My brother I just taya.
I think I will give up now that I have finally diagnosed his problem.

SIRTee15:
My brother I just taya.
I think I will give up now that I have finally diagnosed his problem.

U have a very big mouth for someone still struggling between all those religions u listed up there.

SIRTee15:
As u can see, Jesus made it clear his message is for the whole world and the Quran seem to validate it.

Are you telling me "I am only sent to the lost sheep of House of Israel' mean I am not only sent to the lost sheep of House of Israel?

And the Instruction "Do not go into the ways of the Gentiles and Samaritan" mean go into the ways of the Gentiles and Samaritan?

The real question is why did Jesus said he was only sent to the lost sheep of house of Israel?
Was he lying or Did he forget his mission.?

So don't hide behind those who followed his teachings after he left.

SIRTee15:
U gotta be kidding me, most absurd and ridiculous statement I have ever heard. No wonder U failed woefully to defend the Qur'an in this debate but will quickly duck to the bible because in your thinking if I can prove the bible wrong then Quran is right.

There many other ABRAHAMIC religions- what happened to Bahia faith, what happened to The Mormons, Sikhism and even judiasm- who still await the Messiah.
What about Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and even African traditional religion. What evidence do U have that Orunmila and his divine oracle is not from God?

I thought you already believe in God of Abraham and that is the reason you are a Christian, the reason why I focus my beam on Christianity and Islam in relation to Judaism. but here you are bringing Obatala, Hinduism, Buddhism, and the likes, u even have to go to off shoots like Mormon and Baha'i just to take a cheap shot.

Is there a low you can't go to win argument?

SIRTee15:
How do U even know the Abrahamic religion has the true God. How do U know what is written in the bible is from the Only true God.
There was monotheistic faith 1000 yrs b4 Abraham even came on stage and that deity is not God of the bible.
People had been worshipping Only One deity- monotheism for a thousand years before Abraham said he was called by YAHWEH as the only true God.
So how do U know Abraham was right and those b4 him were wrong.

I now understand your problem. Your faith is based on refuting Christianity, then adopting the next similar religion to it.
U don't even know enough about your Qur'an to defend it convincingly.
Your theological foundation is poor. Your faith is blind.

I think our next debate should actually be Why is the God of the Abrahamic religion the True God. What evidence do we have to prove that the God called ELOHIM OR WHO REVEALED HIMSELF AS YHWH is the Only True God.
We need to go back to the foundation first b4 all these structure we are building.

I can tell you for a fact that there is no way you SirTee can conveniently prove any Abrahamic religion has the true God, because you make a joke of prophecies, they mean nothing to you.
You had to agree with the scholars you hate so much on the prophecies in the book of Daniel, U will rather accept the prophecies failed than accept Islam fulfilled the prophecy. You have to do some wuru-wuru with Isaiah 53 just to make sure Jesus fulfilled the prophecy.

And here you are saying shit about me having a poor theological foundation and a blind faith. I am not sure you have been looking into the mirror lately.

SIRTee15:
This is a waste of time. I already debunked Son of Man in Daniel, whether U accept evidence of ancient Jewish text and from Jesus own word is your business.
Unless U can bring a counter evidence, pls don't go back to that passage.

U have debunked nothing bro, this is a prophecy that is supposed to line up with history, and we know how history played out. But if you want to hide behind some unknown document of some unknown Jewish sect and turn a blind eye to how history actually played out. No Problem.

It is not our emotions that will count in the end.

SIRTee15:
Next I will debunk the prophet like Moses. He's Jesus and can never be Muhammed.

I will also debunk the lies that the blessing of Abraham via his offspring can never be Muhammed.

But most importantly we need to establish and produce evidence that the God of the Abrahamic religion is the only True God.
Why is other deity before Abrahim and after him false even if they are monotheism.

U don't need to debunk anything again.. if you can go against a prophecy that we know how it played out in history, you will go against anything just to remain in your folly. The truth does not matter to you, you just want to win argument.

Qasim6:
U have a very big mouth for someone still struggling between all those religions u listed up there.

WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT WHAT THE JEWISH PROPHETS WROTE IN THEIR BOOKS ABOUT THEIR GOD IS NOT A FABRICATION.
TELL ME THE EVIDENCE THAT MAKES YOU BELEIVE THE TANAKH IS ACTUALLY FROM THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

THIS DEBATE IS ABOUT 'IS THE QURAN FROM GOD?'. I ASKED 3 QUESTIONS AND YOU FAILED WOEFULLY TO DEFEND ANYONE. ALL U DID IS RUNNING TO THE BIBLE TO HIDE.

3 QUESTIONS ABOUT THE QURAN AND YOU COULDN'T COME UP WITH ANY CONVINCING UNAMBIGOUS CLEAR ANSWER. AND U WANT TO BELEIVE THAT BOOK IS FROM GOD.
THE 3 QUESTIONS EXPOSED THE INCONSISTENCY, HISTORICAL DISCONNECT, POOR HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE AND GLARING ERROR IN THE QURAN. THESE ARE THE REASONS YOU COULDN'T ASNWER MY QUESTIONS.
I CAN ASK ANOTHER 3 QUESTIONS AND THE OUTCOME WILL STILL BE THE SAME.

as my colleagues as advised, we should end it unless u want to tell me why u believe the tanakh is the true word of God.
I NOTICE U ARE VERY ITCHY TO JUMP TO BIBLE, SO WE CAN AS WELL MOVE TO THE BIBLE. ASK ME BIBLE QUESTIONS OR PROPHECY AND WILL REPLY U- preferably another thread.