₦airaland Forum

Kingsempires:
am not against you ooo what I meant is that you and this Muslims were doesn't have the same though or thick because All the explanation you are giving them they are still disagreeing which you what explanation can you give them again at the One understand that's why I said you go explain tire Shea is left from them

Do you believe that the Jesus you follow as a Christian is the same as the Jesus understood by the Jewish faith?

Additionally, do you think the Jesus you worship is the same as the Jesus recognized by Jehovah's Witnesses?

Steep:
Allah use of Royal "We" exposes him as one who represent another. The kings use Royal "We" because they represent the people.

Arabs use "We" too!

Yoruba too use it for elders.

In fact in Yoruba, Plural pronouns is used for elders like it is used for more than one persons!

So bros you lied!

Ojuntana:
This is the fact they fail to understand. Even civil leaders like Presidents and Prime Ministers use "We" sometimes when referring to decisions taken by their government. Even business leaders do. Dangote said: "We worked hard to ensure this refinery dream we had came to fruition"

Who had the refinery dream? Was it not Aliko Dangote? Did anyone plan the idea of refinery with him? Yet he used "We" when referring to the plan to build the refinery. That's because he recognises the joint effort of others in bringing it to fruition. These clowns will tell you Dangote used "We" because he was giving himself respect

You're still overlooking the fact that an individual can use "we" to convey their own perspective or personal opinions. This use of "we" can reflect a singular person's viewpoint or stance, rather than representing a collective group.

Petalss:
A dictionary quote this as 'ignorance.'

except the meaning of ignorance has changed.
The use of plural "we" instead of "us" shows plurality of persons is more glorious than singular person meaning allah is just a wanna be.

AntiChristian:
Arabs use "We" too!

Yoruba too use it for elders.

In fact in Yoruba, Plural pronouns is used for elders like it is used for more than one persons!

So bros you lied!

That is because it is believed that the elders or kings are not alone but the gods or ancestors are with them. Kings in history speak for their whole kingdom. They use "we" when speaking from their office as king which is a representation of the collective will of the people.

you have just revealed that plurality is more glorious than singularity. It just exposes allah as a wannabe.

Go and be committing sins like fornication as allah wants you to. Or do you want allah to commit genocide against you?

Abu Ayyub Ansari reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said:
If you were not to commit sins, Allah would have swept you out of existence and would have replaced you by another people who have committed sin, and then asked forgiveness from Allah, and He would have granted them pardon.

Sahih Muslim 2748b

AntiChristian:
Arabs use "We" too!

Yoruba too use it for elders.

In fact in Yoruba, Plural pronouns is used for elders like it is used for more than one persons!

So bros you lied!

Steep:
except the meaning of ignorance has changed.
The use of plural "we" instead of "us" shows plurality of persons is more glorious than singular person meaning allah is just a wanna be.

I respectfully disagree, but I'll leave the discussion afterwards.

The use of "We" in the Qur'an is a way to show respect and majesty, not to suggest that Allah is more than one. It's like when a king or queen says "we" to show authority, but they are still just one person. In Islam, Allah is one, and using "We" emphasizes His greatness, not plurality.

Petalss:
You're still overlooking the fact that an individual can use "we" to convey their own perspective or personal opinions. This use of "we" can reflect a singular person's viewpoint or stance, rather than representing a collective group.

An individual representing a group

There is no known language where an individual representing himself alone will use "We" to refer to himself. Your reference to English is totally out of point as I already proved. A sovereign is an embodiment of the state. Anything a sovereign does is as if the state does it. That's why a sovereign can send his country to war and the whole country weay "We are at war" not "The King (or President) is at war

Petalss:
You're still overlooking the fact that an individual can use "we" to convey their own perspective or personal opinions. This use of "we" can reflect a singular person's viewpoint or stance, rather than representing a collective group.

see ignorance. An individual does not use "we" for personal viewpoint rather as a monarch. Monarch are considered the embodiment of their kingdom or divine authority to rule their people. Hence when they speak their words are regarded as the collective decision of everyone in the kingdom.
An autocratic can also use it, because he speaks on behalf of every one and it is binding on all.

Petalss:
Do you believe that the Jesus you follow as a Christian is the same as the Jesus understood by the Jewish faith?

Additionally, do you think the Jesus you worship is the same as the Jesus recognized by Jehovah's Witnesses?

yes

Petalss:
I respectfully disagree, but I'll leave the discussion afterwards.

The use of "We" in the Qur'an is a way to show respect and majesty, not to suggest that Allah is more than one. It's like when a king or queen says "we" to show authority, but they are still just one person. In Islam, Allah is one, and using "We" emphasizes His greatness, not plurality.

Go an research the etymology of royal we or why they use it.
Allah is one what? Do you know that the word "one" as used in Arabic is "ahad" guess what ahad means unity of many things.

Hahaha Allah don enter problem, so the use of a plural "we" is more authoritative than singular "I", I don't disagree with it, but I am telling why it is considered so.

Ojuntana:
An individual representing a group

There is no known language where an individual representing himself alone will use "We" to refer to himself. Your reference to English is totally out of point as I already proved. A sovereign is an embodiment of the state. Anything a sovereign does is as if the state does it. That's why a sovereign can send his country to war and the whole country weay "We are at war" not "The King (or President) is at war

Just like for example, some says red means danger without knowing why red is taking to represent danger.

AntiChristian:
As regards the Sun's heat, that's not sun!

Both the heat, the fire and gasses ALL TOGETHER ARE CALLED SUN.

You can't call the gasses alone sun nor call the heat or the fire sun.

But in human terminology, human still call the heat sun.

The analogy of the Sun, where fire and heat are all called Sun, is limited because it implies the modes of existence rather than distinct persons.

It's not!

Fire is a part on its own
Likewise heat and gasses.

So if that to be considered a living thing then, it means both can be called PERSON

It fails to represent the co-equality and relational dynamics of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, leading to potential misunderstandings of the Trinity.

It did not.

Just understand the basic of it first!

As regards Mathematical Proportion! That one implies uniformity!
Using the mathematical proportion 1:1:1 = 1 as an analogy for the Trinity is limited because it suggests a numerical equality that may imply uniformity rather than distinct personhood. This oversimplification fails to capture the unique identities and relational aspects of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit within the Trinity according to your Bible!

Can you even listen to yourself?

It there anything that can be compared to God in the whole universe?

You want Trinitarian to use limited world substance to PERFECTLY EXPLAIN the unlimited PERSONS of God.

How could that be?

@color part had already solved your issue but you just want to continue with your buhaha.

Ojuntana:
An individual representing a group

There is no known language where an individual representing himself alone will use "We" to refer to himself. Your reference to English is totally out of point as I already proved. A sovereign is an embodiment of the state. Anything a sovereign does is as if the state does it. That's why a sovereign can send his country to war and the whole country weay "We are at war" not "The King (or President) is at war

Surah Al-Anbiya (21:25) "And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to him that, 'There is no deity except Me, so worship Me.

In the verse from Surah above, you will notice Allah uses "We" and then follows it with "Me," and not "Us". it is essential to understand that in Arabic, the plural form "We" is often used as a form of respect and majesty. This is known as the "royal we" or "plural of majesty" (pluralis majestatis). It does not imply plurality in terms of actual numbers, but rather emphasizes the greatness and authority of Allah.When Allah uses "We" in this verse, it signifies His majesty and grandeur. However, when referring to Himself as "Me," it brings the focus back to His singularity and oneness in divinity.

The transition from "We" to "Me" highlights the concept of the oneness of Allah, emphasizing that, despite using the majestic plural, Allah is One and alone worthy of worship.Thus, the use of "We" in such verses expresses Allah’s exalted status, while the use of "Me" reaffirms that there is no deity but Him, maintaining the central message of his oneness.

Kingsempires:
yes

Cool.

Even though Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, it doesn't change who Jesus is.

Similarly, Jehovah’s Witnesses’ belief that Jesus is not God does not alter how Catholics understand Jesus.

It is still the same Jesus, can we all agree?

Different groups may have different beliefs, but these beliefs don't change the fundamental identity of Jesus.

Steep:
see ignorance. An individual does not use "we" for personal viewpoint rather as a monarch. Monarch are considered the embodiment of their kingdom or divine authority to rule their people. Hence when they speak their words are regarded as the collective decision of everyone in the kingdom.
An autocratic can also use it, because he speaks on behalf of every one and it is binding on all.

That is the surprising thing about Muslims. They deride Christians are gullible whereas they are easily the most gullible people on earth. They neither interrogate concepts nor demand explanations in their religion but just swallow whatever is told to them. Yet they believe they are better off than Christians who have interrogated almost all aspects of their religion
Imagine using English to explain Arabic when both languages do not have any cultural nor historical ties or interaction. In Europe of the Middle Ages, the King was synonymous to the state. That's why Louis XIV famously said "L'etat moi" interpreted as "I am the state".
What most of them do not know is that majority of pre-Islamic Arab civilisation was wiped of by the Islamists in their quest to conquer Arabia for themselves. The kings in pre-Islamic Arab was not hereditary as we have now. It was more of an Eldership position. Thus the rulers were mostly old and aged people. So it is very possible they used respectable language for them based on their age and not necessarily because they were royalty.
It is obvious from all accounts that Muhammad was not a perfect man. It is obvious he borrowed existing myths, cultures and traditions and inculcated it into Islam. It is obvious he committed multiple atrocities. But this guys will leave all that and start making snide remarks about Christians and Christianity. Even if you think Muhammad is a prophet, it should not blind you to his mistakes and misdemeanours. To claim Muhammad is the most perfect man is the height of buffoonery and gullibility.

Kingsempires:
yes

Similarly.
Do you agree that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God, the creator of the universe?

AmalaAtiEwedu:
Muslims worship an idol called allah.

Okay. But I didn't ask you

Petalss:
Okay. But I didn't ask you

Ok terrorist

AmalaAtiEwedu:
Ok terrorist

Ok sir.

Thers no such thing as trinity. God is uni/multiversal perfect, does not have an image & we are all his sons & daughters because he is the source of all cosmic consciousness. Trinity is a pagan concept the catholic church incorporated to justify its worship of Mary as the Mother of God being the mother of Jesus. Ancient religions always have a God, a mother and a son just like it is in ancient igbo & yoruba traditional religions. What many Christians do not know is that the trinity concept was not divinely inspired but theologically that's why many Christians dis not belive in it at the council of Nicea & thus left the catholic organization only to be hunted & killed as heretics

quote author=Steep post=131982671]
Just like for example, some says red means danger without knowing why red is taking to represent danger.[/quote]This is even worse. This is a pure case of dogmatic fallacy. Ascribing something you can't prove as explanation for behaviours of your divine being shows you do not even know what you are worshipping.

Ojuntana:
That is the surprising thing about Muslims. They deride Christians are gullible whereas they are easily the most gullible people on earth. They neither interrogate concepts nor demand explanations in their religion but just swallow whatever is told to them. Yet they believe they are better off than Christians who have interrogated almost all aspects of their religion
Imagine using English to explain Arabic when both languages do not have any cultural nor historical ties or interaction. In Europe of the Middle Ages, the King was synonymous to the state. That's why Louis XIV famously said "L'etat moi" interpreted as "I am the state".
What most of them do not know is that majority of pre-Islamic Arab civilisation was wiped of by the Islamists in their quest to conquer Arabia for themselves. The kings in pre-Islamic Arab was not hereditary as we have now. It was more of an Eldership position. Thus the rulers were mostly old and aged people. So it is very possible they used respectable language for them based on their age and not necessarily because they were royalty.
It is obvious from all accounts that Muhammad was not a perfect man. It is obvious he borrowed existing myths, cultures and traditions and inculcated it into Islam. It is obvious he committed multiple atrocities. But this guys will leave all that and start making snide remarks about Christians and Christianity. Even if you think Muhammad is a prophet, it should not blind you to his mistakes and misdemeanours. To claim Muhammad is the most perfect man is the height of buffoonery and gullibility.

Islam has totally corrupted Arabic culture. Even the language was affected by Islam.

Petalss:
Additionally, do you think the Jesus you worship is the same as the Jesus recognized by Jehovah's Witnesses?

Of course most people think so but truthfully it is not the same Jesus!

Ojuntana:
quote author=Steep post=131982671]
Just like for example, some says red means danger without knowing why red is taking to represent danger.

This is even worse. This is a pure case of dogmatic fallacy. Ascribing something you can't prove as explanation for behaviours of your divine being shows you do not even know what you are worshipping.

exactly they can't see the irony. How can a god claims absolute oneness, yet prefers using "we" to describe himself simply it is more honorable. That is allah is not honorable enough so he had to copy human behaviour of making himself seem more than one person to gain more respect.

MaxInDHouse:
Of course most people think so but truthfully it is not the same Jesus!

Mr Max, can you share more insight into this?

Steep:
exactly they can't see the irony. How can a god claims absolute oneness, yet prefers using "we" to describe himself simply it is more honorable. That is allah is not honorable enough so he had to copy human behaviour of making himself seem more than one person to gain more respect.

Do you know the word Elohim is plural?

Majestic plural is used in some languages. I don't know why some of you are this daft that you don't know about that. Majestic plural is used in both Arabic and Hebrew.

Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. Exodus 7:1

In the verse above the word translated to God is Elohim. Are you telling us God sent 2 or more Moses to Pharaoh?

Even if you knuckleheads want to take Elohim to mean your Father, son and holy spirit hogwash. Did God send a 3 in 1 Moses to Pharaoh?

Petalss:
Surah Al-Anbiya (21:25) "And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to him that, 'There is no deity except Me, so worship Me.

In the verse from Surah above, you will notice Allah uses "We" and then follows it with "Me," and not "Us". it is essential to understand that in Arabic, the plural form "We" is often used as a form of respect and majesty. This is known as the "royal we" or "plural of majesty" (pluralis majestatis). It does not imply plurality in terms of actual numbers, but rather emphasizes the greatness and authority of Allah.When Allah uses "We" in this verse, it signifies His majesty and grandeur. However, when referring to Himself as "Me," it brings the focus back to His singularity and oneness in divinity.

The transition from "We" to "Me" highlights the concept of the oneness of Allah, emphasizing that, despite using the majestic plural, Allah is One and alone worthy of worship.Thus, the use of "We" in such verses expresses Allah’s exalted status, while the use of "Me" reaffirms that there is no deity but Him, maintaining the central message of his oneness.

I hope you are aware that the Quran is not the first Scripture to quote God in personal plural terms. Read the following scriptures below

Gen 1:26-27

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Gen 3:22

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

Isaiah 6:8

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”

From the above three passages, you can see God using the first person plural and then first person singular to refer to himself. In Yoruba mythology, Eledumare is also referred to interchangeably with either second person singular or plural.
My point is the phenomenon is not peculiar to the Quran. So if it were just a linguistic issue, how come it continues to show up in different references to God in different religions? Does this mean there is more than one God? If God refers to himself in Quran as We for sake of a phantom plural majesty, how do you explain that it already exists in other more ancient texts than the Quran. Is the Quran simply following them? If so, there is nothing new Quran is telling us about God then

Qasim6:
Do you know the word Elohim is plural?

Majestic plural is used in some languages. I don't know why some of you are this daft that you don't know about that. Majestic plural is used in both Arabic and Hebrew.

Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. Exodus 7:1

In the verse above the word translated to God is Elohim. Are you telling us God sent 2 or more Moses to Pharaoh?

Even if you knuckleheads want to take Elohim to mean your Father, son and holy spirit hogwash. Did God send a 3 in 1 Moses to Pharaoh?

Stop advertising your ignorance. Elohim is not a name God gave himself. It is an appellation given to God by the Hebrews because they feared to call God by His given name which is Yahweh. Elohim is not the only name they call him. They also call him ElShaddai etc. Anywhere you see The Lord used in Hebrew texts, it refers to an appellation given to God by the Hebrews. God is Yahweh in Hebrew not Elohim

Petalss:
Cool.

Even though Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, it doesn't change who Jesus is.

Similarly, Jehovah’s Witnesses’ belief that Jesus is not God does not alter how Catholics understand Jesus.

It is still the same Jesus, can we all agree?

Different groups may have different beliefs, but these beliefs don't change the fundamental identity of Jesus.

you are right

Petalss:
Mr Max, can you share more insight to this?

There are many demons answering Jesus and God today {2Corinthians 11:14} so if you're just considering the name they call their Gods you may be confused.

What you should carefully note is the command their Gods are giving them if it's in line with what Jesus taught in the Bible.

For instance Jesus' disciples must not raise any weapon against their neighbours {Mark 12:31} neither should they think of killing their fellow believers {John 13:34-35} all these makes no sense to them yet they're calling Jesus claiming he is their God! Matthew 7:21-23

He himself said it's in vain they are doing all those worship because he doesn't even know them! Matthew 15:8-9