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I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity - Religion - Nairaland

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I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Nobody: 2:49pm On May 27
When it comes to religious matters we have to use our heads sometimes.Trinity, in Christian doctrine is the unity of the father ,son and holy spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be one of central christian affirmations about God. It is rooted in the fact that God came to meet christians in a threefold figure as (1) There creator,Lord,Father and judge as revealed in the old testament (2)as the lord who incarnated in figure of Jesus Christ who lived among human beings (3)As the holy spirit whom they experienced as the helper or intercessor in the power of new life.But neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.Did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Hebrew scriptures(Deutronomy 6:4).I have started asking my pastors some questions regarding that,but he only warned me to be very careful of JW. lol

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Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Kobojunkie: 2:54pm On May 27
grin You are beginning to think of your own... only why abandon one doctrine(man made rules and traditions) only to take hold of another? Why not finally accept what God says as He did instead? undecided

7 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Nobody: 2:59pm On May 27
Kobojunkie:
grin You are beginning to think of your own... only why abandon one doctrine(man made rules and traditions) only to take hold of another? Why not finally accept what God says as He did instead? undecided
Im not a JW but this Trinity stuff is somehow.You can never win an argument on Trinity with a JW,they seems to have alot to back up their argument.

14 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by NuclearReactor(m): 3:07pm On May 27
Rozz:
When it comes to religious matters we have to use our heads sometimes.Trinity, in Christian doctrine is the unity of the father ,son and holy spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be one of central christian affirmations about God. It is rooted in the fact that God came to meet christians in a threefold figure as (1) There creator,Lord,Father and judge as revealed in the old testament (2)as the lord who incarnated in figure of Jesus Christ who lived among human beings (3)As the holy spirit whom they experienced as the helper or intercessor in the power of new life.But neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.Did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Hebrew scriptures(Deutronomy 6:4).I have started asking my pastors some questions regarding that,but he only warned me to be very careful of JW. lol
The word Trinity doesn't need to exist in the NT, the whole concept of trinity is that God manifests himself in 3 personalities, each with distinct roles but same qualities.
Throughout the NT the 3 personalities are clearly stated... But there was never any place where it was said that there are 3 distinct personalities...
Hope I made sense

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Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Kobojunkie: 3:15pm On May 27
Rozz:
Im not a JW but this Trinity stuff is somehow.You can never win an argument on Trinity with a JW,they seems to have alot to back up their argument.
Wait...was this because you couldn't win an argument with a JW? cheesy grin cheesy grin cheesy

11 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Nobody: 3:20pm On May 27
Kobojunkie:
Wait...was this because you couldn't win an argument with a JW? cheesy grin cheesy grin cheesy
lol not really

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Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by MuttleyLaff: 3:37pm On May 27
Rozz:
When it comes to religious matters we have to use our heads sometimes.Trinity, in Christian doctrine is the unity of the father ,son and holy spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be one of central christian affirmations about God. It is rooted in the fact that God came to meet christians in a threefold figure as
(1) There creator,Lord,Father and judge as revealed in the old testament
(2) as the lord who incarnated in figure of Jesus Christ who lived among human beings
(3)As the holy spirit whom they experienced as the helper or intercessor in the power of new life.But neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.

Did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Hebrew scriptures(Deutronomy 6:4).
I have started asking my pastors some questions regarding that, but he only warned me to be very careful of JW. lol

Kobojunkie:
grin You are beginning to think of your own... only why abandon one doctrine(man made rules and traditions) only to take hold of another? Why not finally accept what God says as He did instead? undecided

NuclearReactor:

The word Trinity doesn't need to exist in the NT, the whole concept of trinity is that God manifests himself in 3 personalities, each with distinct roles but same qualities.
Throughout the NT the 3 personalities are clearly stated... But there was never any place where it was said that there are 3 distinct personalities...
Hope I made sense

Kobojunkie:
Wait...was this because you couldn't win an argument with a JW? cheesy grin cheesy grin cheesy

Rozz:
lol not really



MuttleyLaff:
This is the beauty of breaking bread and sharing it in opened topics like as this one. Interlocutors bring along food, you eat with them on the table, chew the food but making sure not to swallow the bones but to spit them out, lol

... my position, is God is not a "not-known-number" of person. God, as a matter of fact then, is, x-person and so God, in effect is, ∞-persons, as in, meaning, God is infinite or infinity.

God is someone without any bound, without limit, without an end. God is the first and the last, God oxymoronically has no beginning and no end. God is someone bigger and larger than any specified number, even three or trinity. This means, dont put God in a box. It explains why God in His infinite wisdom didnt allow the the word trinity to be printed black and white kokoro out in the Bible, lol

Now going to what you referenced and about the point made by Biblespeaks when he laid bare Matthew 24:36. Well, you've likely, often heard it said, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. Something to be done right is exactly what it's all about and so what God did. This is a matter of the classsic diy aka Do-It-Yourself.

God, can send Himself on an errand, and did send Himself to earth, in the form of Jesus Christ because God simultaneously can be in more than one place at a time (i.e. God can be in Heaven and on earth, at the same time) Note that, Jesus didnt correct people that addressed Him as God, for example, where and when said: "My Lord, My God" to Him

Christ cannot share the same body with God the father, because God is formless. God has no clear definite shape or size. Jesus Christ is the product of God projecting Himself as a human being in the person of Jesus Christ on earth. Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. Why does Jesus Christ need to be a human being on earth?. Fundamentally, it is because one needs a human body to lawfully and have a permitted way to legally operate on earth. God is not going to be a law breaker and be breaking Genesis 1:26-28

Now, though Jesus is God, He did not think of equality with God, as something to cling to. Instead, He gave up his divine privileges. He took the humble position of a servant and was born as a human being, and so God appeared on earth, in human form, as in, the person of Jesus Christ, God's Son, which means, it is a guarantee and not rocket science, that fathers will always know things that sons will have no idea or knowledge of.

This isnt news anymore

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Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Benbisco(f): 3:47pm On May 27
One way to understand scriptures better is to read the passage from different versions of the Bible, the same way we read from different textbooks or websites to understand a topic better when studying.

“Israel, remember this! The LORD — and the LORD alone — is our God.
Deuteronomy 6:4. This is what Good News Bible says.

Attention, Israel! God , our God! God the one and only!
Deuteronomy 6:4. This is what the Message Bible says.

I believe these make it a bit clearer what that passage says. Its say that our God is God alone ( in Nathaniel Bassey's voice..."You are God all by yourself).

From your writeup, I can deduce that you have good knowledge of scriptures. I'll advice you ask the Holy Spirit for better understanding on the subject.

P.S: The Bible does not mention the word "Rapture" at all but that does not change the fact that it is real.

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Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Nobody: 4:05pm On May 27
Benbisco:
One way to understand scriptures better is to read the passage from different versions of the Bible, the same way we read from different textbooks or websites to understand a topic better when studying.

“Israel, remember this! The LORD — and the LORD alone — is our God.
Deuteronomy 6:4. This is what Good News Bible says.

Attention, Israel! God , our God! God the one and only!
Deuteronomy 6:4. This is what the Message Bible says.

I believe these make it a bit clearer what that passage says. Its say that our God is God alone ( in Nathaniel Bassey's voice..."You are God all by yourself).

From your writeup, I can deduce that you have good knowledge of scriptures. I'll advice you ask the Holy Spirit for better understanding on the subject.

P.S: The Bible does not mention the word "Rapture" at all but that does not change the fact that it is real.
seeking for better understanding sometimes makes me confuse as some verses contradict themselves.I think having a true and proper understanding of the Bible is spiritual.

3 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Kobojunkie: 4:20pm On May 27
Rozz:
seeking for better understanding sometimes makes me confuse as some verses contradict themselves.I think having a true and proper understanding of the Bible is spiritual.
Not true! The Bible is in fact written in plain language for all to read. The blindness is a choice.
Man's Trinity doctrine is just that, the doctrine of men. However, if you read through each one of the Gospel's , you will not miss Jesus Himself explaining the relationship that exists between the Himself, His Father and the Spirit of God. You have to trust God to reveal Himself to you, and reading through, say the Book of Matthew, and the Book of John should clear you right up. grin

1 Like

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by MuttleyLaff: 4:22pm On May 27
Rozz:
seeking for better understanding sometimes makes me confuse as some verses contradict themselves. I think having a true and proper understanding of the Bible is spiritual.
"But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative
—that is, the Holy Spirit—He will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.
"
- John 14:26

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth.
He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard.
He will tell you about the future.
"
- John 16:13

God, is not a God of confusion and the scripture doesn't have inconsistencies and contradictions. You are right, one requires the Spirit of Truth who guides believers in all truths

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Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Nobody: 4:23pm On May 27
Kobojunkie:
Not true! The Bible is in fact written in plain language for all to read. The blindness is a choice.
Man's Trinity doctrine is just that, the doctrine of men. However, if you read through each one of the Gospel's , you will not miss Jesus Himself explaining the relationship that exists between the Himself, His Father and the Spirit of God. You have to trust God to reveal Himself to you, and reading through, say the Book of Matthew, and the Book of John should clear you right up. grin
You seems to have knowledge of the Bible but you sometimes sound like an atheist

3 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Kobojunkie: 4:24pm On May 27
Rozz:
You seems to have knowledge of the Bible but you sometimes sound like an atheist
How do I sometimes sound like an Atheist? undecided undecided I mean I used to be one but now I can't go back there anymore.

1 Like

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Nobody: 4:29pm On May 27
Kobojunkie:
How do I sometimes sound like an Atheist? undecided undecided I mean I used to be one but now I can't go back there anymore.
hmm an atheist convert thats good.

1 Like

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Kobojunkie: 4:40pm On May 27
Rozz:
hmm an atheist convert thats good.
The glory belongs to no human being though ... He made me think my way back to Him

So you were saying that I come off as an atheist sometimes?

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Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Nobody: 4:47pm On May 27
Kobojunkie:
The glory belongs to no human being though ... He made me think my way back to Him

So you were saying that I come off as an atheist sometimes?
yes,your comments on the other thread
Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by hoopernikao: 4:59pm On May 27
Rozz:
seeking for better understanding sometimes makes me confuse as some verses contradict themselves.I think having a true and proper understanding of the Bible is spiritual.

Good day bro,
I commend your effort in asking questions among your folks, I mean where you fellowship. It is good sign for someone who truly seek to know and for proper understanding. It also pushes those who have rules over you to further study.

Having said that, you must know that the scriptures contradictions are man made. The scriptures in itself when read together and understood have no contradictions. Also note even though the scriptures are spiritual, it can be made known and well explained to human mind. Most of the time, our experiences and sentiment is what cloud our judgement.

On trinity, it is a concept well documented in the scriptures. Like I always say, trinity as a word doesn't exist in the scriptures but such concept are all visible all over the scriptures. It takes scriptures isolation to deny trinity. Or better still maybe our view of trinity is different considering your initial OP explanation of trinity.

In all, keep checking, seeking, praying and studying hard, the right teaching will surely be revealed.

3 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Kobojunkie: 5:00pm On May 27
Rozz:
yes,your comments on the other thread
If you have issues about any of my comments, feel free to let me know of it... no matter what it is.

2 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Benbisco(f): 5:24pm On May 27
Rozz:
seeking for better understanding sometimes makes me confuse as some verses contradict themselves.I think having a true and proper understanding of the Bible is spiritual.

Exactly! That is where/when the Third Person in the Trinity, The Holy Spirit is mostly needed. Ask Him to direct you and give you understanding when studying.

2 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Maximus69(m): 5:42pm On May 27
You only need to study the Bible with the Christians, that's the way Jesus commissioned Christianity.

It wasn't something that you just wake up one morning and think you want to become a Christian, Christianity is not what the world was is used to, that's why the world rejected it's founder (Jesus).

So to become a Christian, someone must come to preach to you, you will find what is appealing and start learning gradually what Jesus taught. Matthew 10:11-15; Romans 10:11-15

What most people are jumping at today that they're calling Christianity was fabricated by Satan, Satan knew what will attract humans! 2Corinthians 11:11-15

So the journey is far Rozz, i just pray that you can stand against all odds in this! Matthew 10:32-39

5 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Nobody: 5:49pm On May 27
Maximus69:
You only need to study the Bible with the Christians, that's the way Jesus commissioned Christianity.

It wasn't something that you just wake up one morning and think you want to become a Christian, Christianity is not what the world was is used to, that's why the world rejected it's founder (Jesus).

So to become a Christian, someone must come to preach to you, you will find what is appealing and start learning gradually what Jesus taught. Matthew 10:11-15; Romans 10:11-15

What most people are jumping at today that they're calling Christianity was fabricated by Satan, Satan knew what will attract humans! 2Corinthians 11:11-15

So the journey is far Rozz, i just pray that you can stand against all odds in this! Matthew 10:32-39
I'm still a work in progress lol just managing

1 Like

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by MuttleyLaff: 6:48pm On May 27
Rozz:
yes, your comments on the other thread
Actually he's saying, its not true to your "... I think having a true and proper understanding of the Bible is spiritual" makes one do a smh.

2 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Maximus69(m): 8:05pm On May 27
Rozz:
I'm still a work in progress lol just managing

Hmmmmmmmm Paradise is not that far but there are many rivers to cross!

So despite the way i've treated you this lady with so much contempt, you still feel the need to learn more about us!

Well let me start from where the river could be deeper.

You must be prepared to change friends because friendship with the world is enmity with God! Romans 8:7; James 4:4

You must be willing to see things from the viewpoint of God NOT the way the world view it! Isaiah 55:8-9

Your dressing and grooming have nothing as in NOTHING to do with your faith but because of unbelievers whose minds has been filled with manmade doctrines, you have to consider them by dressing in a way that will not stumble them. You don't need all those protocols in your home with your husband! 1Peter 3:1-6

Think more of how to help them as you would have loved to be helped, ask yourself "if a woman is dressed like this how many people will give her a listening ear even though she has the message of hope to give them? Matthew 22:39

If you're in your own home with your man or you're in the midst of fellow believers only, nobody looks at you lustfully {Matthew 5:28} but that's not the case in the midst of unbelievers or when an unbeliever is around!

So it takes great courage to wave goodbye to the world and it's ways! 1John 2:15-17

God bless you!

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Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Acehart: 8:42pm On May 27
Rozz:
When it comes to religious matters we have to use our heads sometimes.Trinity, in Christian doctrine is the unity of the father ,son and holy spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be one of central christian affirmations about God. It is rooted in the fact that God came to meet christians in a threefold figure as (1) There creator,Lord,Father and judge as revealed in the old testament (2)as the lord who incarnated in figure of Jesus Christ who lived among human beings (3)As the holy spirit whom they experienced as the helper or intercessor in the power of new life.But neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.Did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Hebrew scriptures(Deutronomy 6:4).I have started asking my pastors some questions regarding that,but he only warned me to be very careful of JW. lol

I hope you love rap music. When there is a battle between two rappers and one loses, it’s simply because he/she didn’t do her home work - reading, practicing with a friend, writing etc.

I fear you don’t haven’t done your homework; hence, you are losing to a weak rapper - JWs.

Have you ever asked yourself what the word “God” means? If you do, you wouldn’t feel the way you are feeling now. While you are at it, could you read Revelations 1:4-6, please? Tell me what you understood after you studied those three verses.

2 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by DeusMagnus: 9:37pm On May 27
Rozz:
Im not a JW but this Trinity stuff is somehow.You can never win an argument on Trinity with a JW,they seems to have alot to back up their argument.
you couldn't win the argument because you are empty. At this point, anybody can win you.

1 Like

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Janosky: 9:52pm On May 27
Acehart:


I hope you love rap music. When there is a battle between two rappers and one loses, it’s simply because he/she didn’t do her home work - reading, practicing with a friend, writing etc.

I fear you don’t haven’t done your homework; hence, you are losing to a weak rapper - JWs.

Have you ever asked yourself what the word “God” means? If you do, you wouldn’t feel the way you are feeling now. While you are at it, could you read Revelations 1:4-6, please? Tell me what you understood after you studied those three verses.
***
Revelations 1:4-6

John,

To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen."

Cc :
Rozz : please take note of the BOLDED.


Acehart won't explain why Jesus Christ in heaven serves his God and Father with humans chosen from the earth. grin grin.

The Acehart came here to needlessly cast JWs but ended up EXPOSING his FRAUD doctrine.

Is the spiritual realm Superior to the physical realm ? Yes !!!
Revelations 1:4-6, PROOF, Jesus Christ WORSHIP his God and Father in heaven.

Trinity FRAUD goes straight to the dustbin. DOA !
grin grin

3 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Maximus69(m): 9:55pm On May 27
Dear Rozz,

I know you're reading their comments as each is dropping his/her comment, just read carefully and meditate prayerfully, then ask yourself

What exactly is the point each person is making?

Does this person believe in God's word?

What is the correlation between his comments (idea) and God's word?

Does he quote God's word at all?


They're all misinformed churchgoers!

They will tell you "read God's word and let the holy spirit teach (interpret) for you" but ask them thought provoking questions and see how they won't know what to say or how to back their words with the scriptures. All of them depend on what their Pastors tell them but against Jehovah's Witnesses they want to argue.

I'm sure you've gotten enough experience on that by now! smiley

2 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Nobody: 10:05pm On May 27
Maximus69:
Dear Rozz,

I know you're reading their comments as each is dropping his/her comment, just read carefully and meditate prayerfully, then ask yourself

What exactly is the point each person is making?

Does this person believe in God's word?

What is the correlation between his comments (idea) and God's word?

Does he quote God's word at all?


They're all misinformed churchgoers!

They will tell you "read God's word and let the holy spirit teach (interpret) for you" but ask them thought provoking questions and see how they won't know what to say or how to back their words with the scriptures. All of them depend on what their Pastors tell them but against Jehovah's Witnesses they want to argue.

I'm sure you've gotten enough experience on that by now! smiley


hmm.Thanks
Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Janosky: 10:06pm On May 27
Rozz:
When it comes to religious matters we have to use our heads sometimes.Trinity, in Christian doctrine is the unity of the father ,son and holy spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be one of central christian affirmations about God. It is rooted in the fact that God came to meet christians in a threefold figure as (1) There creator,Lord,Father and judge as revealed in the old testament (2)as the lord who incarnated in figure of Jesus Christ who lived among human beings (3)As the holy spirit whom they experienced as the helper or intercessor in the power of new life.But neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.Did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Hebrew scriptures(Deutronomy 6:4).I have started asking my pastors some questions regarding that,but he only warned me to be very careful of JW. lol
John 4:24, Jesus Christ says "God is a spirit".
Deut 6:4, Yahweh our God is One Yahweh.
Jesus Christ says himself is NOT The one true God . John 17:3.

Jesus Christ agrees with the Shema , triune pagan deity devotees disagrees with the Shema and they do not know Jesus.
God is NOT 3 (triune) Spirits.

Many Pastors read JW publications and study the Bible with JWs, (most will not admit it to their sheeples) please BEWARE of anyone warning you to be careful of us...

7 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Nobody: 10:11pm On May 27
Janosky:

***
Revelations 1:4-6

John,

To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen."

Cc :
Rozz : please take note of the BOLDED.


Acehart won't explain why Jesus Christ in heaven serves his God and Father with humans chosen from the earth. grin grin.

The Acehart came here to needlessly cast JWs but ended up EXPOSING his FRAUD doctrine.

Is the spiritual realm Superior to the physical realm ? Yes !!!
Revelations 1:4-6, PROOF, Jesus Christ WORSHIP his God and Father in heaven.

Trinity FRAUD goes straight to the dustbin. DOA !
grin grin
My Pastor has already summon me over the message I sent to him regarding Trinity.I know it won't be funny
Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by sonmvayina(m): 10:11pm On May 27
Rozz:
Im not a JW but this Trinity stuff is somehow.You can never win an argument on Trinity with a JW,they seems to have alot to back up their argument.

Yes nah... How can God be the creator and still be part of creation... Does it make sense?

4 Likes

Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity by Nobody: 10:13pm On May 27
DeusMagnus:
you couldn't win the argument because you are empty. At this point, anybody can win you.
I'm not empty and I didn't personally argue with anyone

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