₦airaland Forum

AntiChristian:
Man was created to toil! The world is an examination for us! And that's how Allah created and will it. Kids will die. The Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam had three sons and four daughters. All of his sons died before adulthood. Even his daughters that reached adulthood only one survived him. And this does not mean evil is winning in any way! That's the trial of Allah for the believers!

This is present in the story of Job in your Bible. And in Isaiah 45:7, I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.

Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker—one clay pot among many. Does the clay ask the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘He has no hands’? 10Woe to him who says to his father, ‘What have you begotten?’ or to his mother, ‘What have you brought forth?’” 11Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: “How dare you question Me about My sons, or instruct Me in the work of My hands? Isaiah 45:9-11

Respectfully, you are not making sense. Once again, are you saying that God is not all good and therefore allows these things to happen OR are you saying that God is not really all powerful and cannot prevent them
happening OR are you saying that God is not involved in human affairs?

MaxInDHouse:
OK so you think i don't have a job shey?
Ọmọ because i choose to believe in God doesn't mean i don't participate in any form of invention nah!

*Try and see if you can get answers to all those points I raised.

About you having a job, that's not the point. The point is that none of the modern things you enjoy was invented by people with a fixed, unchanging mindset constrained and limited to the Bible. This very Nairaland you're enjoying so much was invented and is owned by someone who is not only a full-blown atheist but doesn't even believe that a supernatural exists. I know because I once had a protracted argument with him, trying to convince him to at least be agnostic and presenting him circumstantial evidence of the existence of supernatural. He countered every point I raised.
Not a single major tech guy is religious and many are agnostic or atheist

The Bible never mentioned Universe you are the one running that conclusion, what the Bible said is that life began here on earth some 6,000 years ago and there is nothing that exists today that's not subjective to humans so the universe may have existed longer than that but as for man and animals all started existing according to what the Bible says!

Almost all biblical scholars conclude that the Bible says the universe was created about 6000 years. Google it

According to Scripture, God created "the heavens and the earth” fully formed and functioning in six days, about 6,000 years ago (around 4000 BC). The context of Genesis 1, as well as other places in the Bible, make it clear that these days were ordinary 24-hour days.

CanadaOrBust:
Not a single major tech guy is religious and many are agnostic or atheist

Guy this is pure lie!

CanadaOrBust:
Almost all biblical scholars conclude that the Bible says the universe was created about 6000 years.

Now you promote fixed, unchanging mindset and constrained when talking about what we read.
The Bible itself made it clear to all it's students that our understanding of the books in it is like the daylight which is gradually getting brighter and brighter! Proverbs 4:18
So the understanding of Bible scholars many centuries ago shouldn't determine what we believe today because we have now discovered they are wrong with most of their conclusions!

AntiChristian:
This is false!

You are trying to challenge a conclusion reached by people who were much wiser than you and who spent their lives studying the Bible.
They gathered at Nicene and prayed for divine guidance to reach the right conclusion. After debate of several days they came out with the conclusion that Jesus was God or made of same "substance".

What is worship? Did they clap for Jesus or Sang for him? Jesus worshipped God himself! He put his head to the ground for God in worship! even in the Lord's Prater he directed the prayer to God in heaven not himself on Earth! If you meant worship is people bowing down for him then we say that is like the Yorubas greeting elders in respect or as Christians greet the MOGs today! You can show where Jesus is worshipped and it will be debunked right here! And many other people were bowed down for in the same Bible as a sign of respect! An example is Joseph's brothers and parents bowing down for him!

Worship is when you direct all that adoration towards someone you believe is God.
Titus 2:13: Paul refers to Jesus as "our great God and Savior" 

Hebrews 1:8: God the Father refers to Jesus as God 

 John 20:28: Thomas the disciple calls Jesus "my Lord and my God" 

 Revelation 22:13: The Apostle John calls Jesus the "Alpha and Omega" and the "first and the last" 

 James 2:1: Jesus' half-brother James calls him "the Lord of glory" 

 1 Peter 3:15: The Apostle Peter calls on believers to "honor Christ the Lord as holy" 

Jesus is also described as having the attributes of deity, including being everywhere-present and knowing what folks were thinking

Jesus was speaking in parables purposely and many do not understand him! And most of the so-called "i am" verses are found in the book of John and never in the other Synoptic Gospels!
All these are just damage control used by many of you guys! "Jesus" was never mentioned by name anywhere in any Prophecy! He was not called Emmanuel anywhere! And just as John praised Jesus, Jesus did praised him too!

If you believe God is involved in human affairs, why would God allow worship of Christ all this while and always getting stronger?

I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John Luke 7:28[/b]

Jesus too was born of a woman then!

Lord Jesus obviously was.NOT including Himself

honesttalk21:
Does everything that exist not come from God?

What has this to do with the discussion?

MaxInDHouse:
Now you promote fixed, unchanging mindset and constrained when talking about what we read.
The Bible itself made it clear to all it's students that our understanding of the books in it is like the daylight which is gradually getting brighter and brighter! Proverbs 4:18
So the understanding of Bible scholars many centuries ago shouldn't determine what we believe today because we have now discovered they are wrong with most of their conclusions!

But these are biblical scholars of today NOT in the past. Here are some prominent scholars who advocate for a universe created around 6,000 years ago:
ames Ussher,
John Lightfoot,
Henry Morris
Duane Gish
Ray Comfort
And many others

CanadaOrBust:
Bottom line is, God or part of God Himself did come to earth at least once that we are sure of.

God, being all-knowing, does not need to become part of His creation in order to understand or empathize with what His creation experiences.

As an omniscient being, He inherently possesses complete knowledge of every emotion, thought, and action within His creation. Given His infinite wisdom and understanding, there is no necessity for Him to physically enter creation to gain further insight, for He already perceives everything beyond the limitations of time and space. His omnipresence ensures that He is aware of every detail without needing to experience it firsthand.

CanadaOrBust:
You are trying to challenge a conclusion reached by people who were much wiser than you and who spent their lives studying the Bible.
They gathered at Nicene and prayed for divine guidance to reach the right conclusion. After debate of several days they came out with the conclusion that Jesus was God or made of same "substance".

Did you ever consider that if the divinity of Jesus Christ were so undeniably clear, there would be no need for debate about his nature? This indicates that even in ancient times, there were those who did not believe in or perceive Jesus as God. A prime example is the Arian controversy, which highlighted the fact that many early Christians did not agree that Jesus was of the same substance as God. One could argue that the conclusions reached at the Council of Nicaea represent only one of many possible theological interpretations of Jesus' nature.

Regarding the wisdom of the council members, how can you assert that they were wiser or more enlightened than people today, especially considering you have not had the opportunity to meet them?

It's important to note that the gathering at the Council of Nicaea was not solely a theological endeavor; it was also significantly influenced by political and cultural factors, particularly Emperor Constantine's desire for unity within the Roman Empire. This suggests that their conclusions may have been shaped by considerations beyond mere spiritual insight.

Petalss:
God, being all-knowing, does not need to become part of His creation in order to understand or empathize with what His creation experiences.

As an omniscient being, He inherently possesses complete knowledge of every emotion, thought, and action within His creation. Given His infinite wisdom and understanding, there is no necessity for Him to physically enter creation to gain further insight, for He already perceives everything beyond the limitations of time and space. His omnipresence ensures that He is aware of every detail without needing to experience it firsthand.

It doesn't necessarily have to be for insight, it could be for any reason. In the case of Lord Jesus He came to die and be raised again after 3 days. He said he himself laid down his life and would pick it up again after 3 days, and that nobody could take it unless he voluntarily laid it down.

Petalss:
Did you ever consider that if the divinity of Jesus Christ were so undeniably clear, there would be no need for debate about his nature? This indicates that even in ancient times, there were those who did not believe in or perceive Jesus as God. A prime example is the Arian controversy, which highlighted the fact that many early Christians did not agree that Jesus was of the same substance as God. One could argue that the conclusions reached at the Council of Nicaea represent only one of many possible theological interpretations of Jesus' nature.

Regarding the wisdom of the council members, how can you assert that they were wiser or more enlightened than people today, especially considering you have not had the opportunity to meet them?

It's important to note that the gathering at the Council of Nicaea was not solely a theological endeavor; it was also significantly influenced by political and cultural factors, particularly Emperor Constantine's desire for unity within the Roman Empire. This suggests that their conclusions may have been shaped by considerations beyond mere spiritual insight.

All this discussion would arise if you don't believe that God is involved in human affairs and listens to prayers.
If you believe God is involved and listens to prayers then there is no way he would have allowed worship of Jesus to happen and grow and keep thriving

CanadaOrBust:
It doesn't necessarily have to be for insight, it could be for any reason. In the case of Lord Jesus He came to die and be raised again after 3 days. He said he himself laid down his life and would pick it up again after 3 days, and that nobody could take it unless he voluntarily laid it down.

In a nutshell, God can die.

CanadaOrBust:
All this discussion would arise if you don't believe that God is involved in human affairs and listens to prayers.
If you believe God is involved and listens to prayers then there is no way he would have allowed worship of Jesus to happen and grow and keep thriving

You're still missing my main point. What are the reasons early Christians did not recognize Jesus as God? Before the voting

CanadaOrBust:
All this discussion would arise if you don't believe that God is involved in human affairs and listens to prayers.
If you believe God is involved and listens to prayers then there is no way he would have allowed worship of Jesus to happen and grow and keep thriving

The reality is that, whether or not we pray, God remains the ultimate controller and sustainer of the entire universe. His presence and influence permeate all aspects of existence. While God is directly engaged with the affairs of humanity, He does not interfere with our individual actions, as He has granted us the gift of free will. This means that although divine intervention is possible, we are ultimately responsible for our choices and the paths we take.

Petalss:
In a nutshell, God can die.

Not only can he, he did! God, the son of God, willingly gave his life, then took it up again, exactly as he said he would - unless you don't believe NT

Petalss:
You're still missing my main point. What are the reasons early Christians did not recognize Jesus as God? Before the voting

You kidding, right? Why would anyone recognize a 33-year old son of a carpenter with no money or connections as God?!!
The easiest thing to say is "God can only have one expression". End of discussion. You avoid all the headache. UNLESS there is just too much compelling evidence that is NOT the case. Then, despite yourself, you say the truth.
The Nicaea Bishops had NOTHING to gain by concluding Jesus is God, and all sorts of headache to raise!

Petalss:
The reality is that, whether or not we pray, God remains the ultimate controller and sustainer of the entire universe. His presence and influence permeate all aspects of existence. While God is directly engaged with the affairs of humanity, He does not interfere with our individual actions, as He has granted us the gift of free will. This means that although divine intervention is possible, we are ultimately responsible for our choices and the paths we take.

The OT shows clearly that if a group of bishops, devout worshippers of God, sincerely pray to God to give them clarity as to the true nature of Christ, He would NOT mislead them. And even if they somehow got it wrong He'd shortly correct it. Especially pertaining something as important as how to worship Him.

CanadaOrBust:
Not only can he, he did! God, the son of God, willingly gave his life, then took it up again, exactly as he said he would - unless you don't believe NT

Which other member of the Godhead is capable of dying? The key issue is not whether Jesus prophesied his own death or resurrection. Rather, it is essential to recognize that it was the will of the Father, not Jesus’s own desire, that led to his death. Furthermore, it is important to note that Jesus did not raise himself; instead, it was God who raised him from the dead.

CanadaOrBust:
You kidding, right? Why would anyone recognize a 33-year old son of a carpenter with no money or connections as God?!!
The easiest thing to say is "God can only have one expression". End of discussion. You avoid all the headache. UNLESS there is just too much compelling evidence that is NOT the case. Then, despite yourself, you say the truth.
The Nicaea Bishops had NOTHING to gain by concluding Jesus is God, and all sorts of headache to raise!

The bolded statement speaks volumes on its own. It’s essential to look beyond the status of the 33-year-old son of a carpenter; there is no evidence suggesting that he is equated with God in any definitive way. Were the early Christians truly followers of Christ if they did not accept his divinity? What would they gain by rejecting the notion of Jesus as God during that period?

Moreover, it is crucial to consider the motivations behind the decisions made at the Council of Nicaea. The bishops who participated had much to gain from their formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity. Their actions were not merely about faith but were also influenced by the political and social dynamics of the time. This raises questions about the authenticity of their beliefs and the implications of their theological inventions.

CanadaOrBust:
The OT shows clearly that if a group of bishops, devout worshippers of God, sincerely pray to God to give them clarity as to the true nature of Christ, He would NOT mislead them. And even if they somehow got it wrong He'd shortly correct it. Especially pertaining something as important as how to worship Him.

Sincerity does not equate correctness. Throughout church history, sincere leaders have held differing beliefs about core doctrines, indicating that sincere prayer does not guarantee correct understanding.

Petalss:
Which other member of the Godhead is capable of dying? The key issue is not whether Jesus prophesied his own death or resurrection. Rather, it is essential to recognize that it was the will of the Father, not Jesus’s own desire, that led to his death. Furthermore, it is important to note that Jesus did not raise himself; instead, it was God who raised him from the dead.

The problem is that you are differentiating Jesus too much from the Father. They are not that different. The father raising him from dead is almost same as he raising himself. I gave an example: suppose I'm able to send my thought on errands - they'd be separate from me but still totally me.
Jesus is the member of the Godhead that died. That's what we are sure about

Petalss:
The bolded statement speaks volumes on its own. It’s essential to look beyond the status of the 33-year-old son of a carpenter; there is no evidence suggesting that he is equated with God in any definitive way. Were the early Christians truly followers of Christ if they did not accept his divinity? What would they gain by rejecting the notion of Jesus as God during that period?

Moreover, it is crucial to consider the motivations behind the decisions made at the Council of Nicaea. The bishops who participated had much to gain from their formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity. Their actions were not merely about faith but were also influenced by the political and social dynamics of the time. This raises questions about the authenticity of their beliefs and the implications of their theological inventions.

*You didn't say what the Bishops had to gain

You can't believe what you wrote above and at same time believe the OT.
God will NOT sit by for 2000 years and watch the worship of non-God Jesus exponentially grow and thrive

Christ was considered God by early Christians viz:

Titus 2:13: Paul refers to Jesus as "our great God and Savior"

Hebrews 1:8: God the Father refers to Jesus as God

John 20:28: Thomas the disciple calls Jesus "my Lord and my God"

Revelation 22:13: The Apostle John calls Jesus the "Alpha and Omega" and the "first and the last"

James 2:1: Jesus' half-brother James calls him "the Lord of glory"

1 Peter 3:15: The Apostle Peter calls on believers to "honor Christ the Lord as holy"

Jesus is also described as having the attributes of deity, including being everywhere-present and knowing what folks were thinking

Petalss:
Sincerity does not equate correctness. Throughout church history, sincere leaders have held differing beliefs about core doctrines, indicating that sincere prayer does not guarantee correct understanding.

There is nothing in church history that comes close to the enormity of this. This was about the very nature of God and how to worship him. And there has been a test of time - 2000 years!

CanadaOrBust:
You can't believe what you wrote above and at same time believe the OT.
God will NOT sit by for 2000 years and watch the worship of non-God Jesus exponentially grow and thrive

Throughout history, God has seemingly allowed many belief systems to grow and thrive, including those outside monotheism (e.g., ancient polytheistic religions). The persistence or spread of a belief system does not necessarily reflect divine endorsement or rejection but might align with historical, cultural, and social factors.

Please explain why God allows other religions to exist. According to your reasoning, does that imply that their God is watching over them as well?
1. Christianity – 2.38 billion (31.2% of the global population) over 2000 years
2. Islam – 1.91 billion (24.1%) Over 1400 years
3. Secular/Non-religious/Agnostic/Atheist – 1.19 billion (15.6%)
4. Hinduism – 1.16 billion (15%) 1500 BCE or earlier.
5. Buddhism – 506 million (6.6%) Circa 6th century BCE.
6. Chinese traditional religion – 394 million (5%)
7. Ethnic religions (including African traditional religions) – 300 million (4%)
8. Sikhism – 26 million (0.3%)
9. Judaism – 14.7 million (0.2%)
10. Other religions (e.g., Baháʼí, Jainism, Shinto) – 58 million (0.8%)

If we set aside population as a factor, the Gods of Hinduism are the most effective in maintaining its religion.

CanadaOrBust:
The problem is that you are differentiating Jesus too much from the Father. They are not that different. The father raising him from dead is almost same as he raising himself. I gave an example: suppose I'm able to send my thought on errands - they'd be separate from me but still totally me.
Jesus is the member of the Godhead that died. That's what we are sure about

It's essential to take a clear stance: things can either be different or the same. Indecision will only lead to confusion and ambiguity. Choose a side and commit to it instead of saying not that different.

CanadaOrBust:
*You didn't say what the Bishops had to gain

I mentioned earlier.
The Council of Nicaea sought to establish a unified Christian doctrine, promote theological clarity, and support the political and social stability of the Roman Empire.

Please can you explain what early Christians who did not believe Jesus is God stood to gain from their disbelief?

CanadaOrBust:
But these are biblical scholars of today NOT in the past. Here are some prominent scholars who advocate for a universe created around 6,000 years ago:
ames Ussher,
John Lightfoot,
Henry Morris
Duane Gish
Ray Comfort
And many others

Have any of these men been able to do the will of God? Matthew 7:21-23
NO!
So what makes you think they understood the Bible's message?
God's will is what matters not reading the Bible alone or studying it {2Timothy 3:7} to you these people are Bible scholars but they don't know God's will which disqualifies them from being exemplary teachers of God's word.

CanadaOrBust:
What has this to do with the discussion?

Allah's creation and sustenance of the world includes a profound awareness of the feelings and needs of His creation.

Psalms 139:1-4 show God is aware of every aspect of human life, including unspoken needs and Isaiah 65:24 shows God knows what people need before they articulate it through prayer or requests, but He is also responsive to those needs even before they
are expressed. Why then is there a need for God to become like his creation man to experience what man feels?

Jesus's statement "Before Abraham, I am" should not be interpreted as a claim to divinity, but rather as a declaration of his eternal existence and connection to God as one who sincerely follows and obeys the almighty and is assured of everlasting good from God

Petalss:
Throughout history, God has seemingly allowed many belief systems to grow and thrive, including those outside monotheism (e.g., ancient polytheistic religions). The persistence or spread of a belief system does not necessarily reflect divine endorsement or rejection but might align with historical, cultural, and social factors.

Please explain why God allows other religions to exist. According to your reasoning, does that imply that their God is watching over them as well?
1. Christianity – 2.38 billion (31.2% of the global population) over 2000 years
2. Islam – 1.91 billion (24.1%) Over 1400 years
3. Secular/Non-religious/Agnostic/Atheist – 1.19 billion (15.6%)
4. Hinduism – 1.16 billion (15%) 1500 BCE or earlier.
5. Buddhism – 506 million (6.6%) Circa 6th century BCE.
6. Chinese traditional religion – 394 million (5%)
7. Ethnic religions (including African traditional religions) – 300 million (4%)
8. Sikhism – 26 million (0.3%)
9. Judaism – 14.7 million (0.2%)
10. Other religions (e.g., Baháʼí, Jainism, Shinto) – 58 million (0.8%)

If we set aside population as a factor, the Gods of Hinduism are the most effective in maintaining its religion.

Other religions are NOT praying to God of OT and saying whoever else they're praying to is His son or part of Him.
You can't say GOD OF OT exists and is interested in human affairs and answers prayers and at same time say Lord Jesus is NOT worthy of worship AS HIM OR PART OF HIM!!! If after 2000 years He hasn't stopped it, it's either he's NOT interested in human worship and affairs or He doesn't exist or no longer exists or exists but is powerless!

honesttalk21:
Allah's creation and sustenance of the world includes a profound awareness of the feelings and needs of His creation.

Psalms 139:1-4 show God is aware of every aspect of human life, including unspoken needs and Isaiah 65:24 shows God knows what people need before they articulate it through prayer or requests, but He is also responsive to those needs even before they
are expressed. Why then is there a need for God to become like his creation man to experience what man feels?

Jesus's statement "Before Abraham, I am" should not be interpreted as a claim to divinity, but rather as a declaration of his eternal existence and connection to God as one who sincerely follows and obeys the almighty and is assured of everlasting good from God

Funny you can't see the obvious contradiction in what you're saying
You can't say GOD OF OT exists and is interested in human affairs and answers prayers and at same time say Lord Jesus is NOT worthy of worship AS HIM OR PART OF HIM!!! If after 2000 years He hasn't stopped it, it's either he's NOT interested in human worship and affairs or He doesn't exist or no longer exists or exists but is powerless!
Also God could come to earth for ANY reason NOT just for first hand knowledge.

Petalss:
I mentioned earlier.
The Council of Nicaea sought to establish a unified Christian doctrine, promote theological clarity, and support the political and social stability of the Roman Empire.

Please can you explain what early Christians who did not believe Jesus is God stood to gain from their disbelief?

You still haven't said what they stood to gain except headache {"they go explain tire"}.
The ones who did not believe stood to gain simplicity and lack of conplication. Nothing to explain.
Simple: there is only one God and no son of a carpenter is worthy of worship as Him!

Petalss:
It's essential to take a clear stance: things can either be different or the same. Indecision will only lead to confusion and ambiguity. Choose a side and commit to it instead of saying not that different.

It's not only essential, it is much easier. But it's NOT indecision, it is a matter of being TRUTHFUL and stating how things REALLY are instead of going for simplicity and expediency. Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God but NOT God the Father. It complicates things but it is the TRUTH!