₦airaland Forum

Petalss:
Everyone is familiar with the concept of the Trinity, which describes three persons existing as one God.
However, what I want you to clarify regarding your understanding of the Trinity is whether these three persons are considered
1. The same or distinct entities.
2. Are they co-equal and co-eternal, or do they have different statuses?
3. Do they share a single will, or do they operate with separate wills?
4. Additionally, can one person of the Trinity be dependent on another, or do they exist independently of one another?

Petalss:
Can you please answer the 1 - 4 for clarity.

1) Is the light that we call "sun" the sun? (The light that traveled from the sun to hit our eyes?)
2) They are.
3) One will, except the special period when one was both man and God
4) They are both.

But none of these minutae really matter as we can never be sure and there is no human equivalent.
What we can be sure of is that they are all worthy of worship and worshiping one is like worshipping the other

honesttalk21:
Please tell me as you are clairvoyant

One of 4 things: 1) It is true 2) You are not interested in human worship 3) You can't 4) You no longer exist

CanadaOrBust:
1) Is the light that we call "sun" the sun? (The light that traveled from the sun to hit our eyes?)
2) They are.
3) One will, except the special period when one was both man and God
4) They are both.

But none of these minutae really matter as we can never be sure and there is no human equivalent.
What we can be sure of is that they are all worthy of worship and worshiping one is like worshipping the other

Please answer the questions properly.
1. (a) same (b) distinct entities.
2. (a) co-equal and co-eternal (b) different statuses
3. (a) single will (b) separate wills
4. (a) dependent on another (b) independently of one another

You've answered No 3. Single will but separate wills in special period

Petalss:
Please answer the questions properly.
1. (a) same (b) distinct entities.
2. (a) co-equal and co-eternal (b) different statuses
3. (a) single will (b) separate wills
4. (a) dependent on another (b) independently of one another

You've answered No 3. Single will but separate wills in special period

I've answered all.
No 2 is A. 1 and 4 are both.
The sunlight is also the sun though separate. Without it there is no sun. Without the light that makes it here the sun does not exist to us

MaxInDHouse:
Sorry to interrupt.

This is a great misconception!
God never said this to anyone because they don't know Him it's unjust to punish people for what they don't know.
As for Israelites the God of their forefathers saved them from slavery without a military force nor were they required to lift up a sword when Pharaoh and his army wanted to destroy them all near the red sea so they owe Him their lives that is why He justly demanded whole soul devotion from them.
This is the misconception islamists do pick in the Bible before going to attack people who don't even know the God they are talking about!

Jehovah did say it in your Bible sha!

You can follow up here!
https://www.nairaland.com/5581249/punishment-not-following-yhwh-old

CanadaOrBust:
Other religions were NOT worshipping someone else as Jewish God of OT and saying whoever else they were worshipping was His son or part of Him.

There's nothing like Jewish God when God created Adam! Even Noah, Moses and Abraham doesn't know any Jewish God? When was the Jewish God created? Who amongst them worshipped Jesus as part of God? It is clear you'll cut out this part and respond to whatever you can! The core truth is that there was no trinity worship in the OT! Even in the first, second and third century till the Nicene, there was a debate on it. The Nicene creed ratified the worship of the trinity which was non-existent in the Bible.

The core message here is that Jesus was never worshipped by Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Jonah etc! How many thousands of years was that?

You can't say GOD OF OT exists and is interested in human affairs and answers prayers and at same time say Lord Jesus is NOT worthy of worship AS HIM OR PART OF HIM!!! If after 2000 years He hasn't stopped it, it's either he's NOT interested in human worship and affairs or He doesn't exist or no longer exists or exists but is powerless to stop it!
The most reasonable answer is that he's truly worthy of worship as him or part of him

Jesus is simply human! A deficient human at that. Just as my mum and dad would protect me from all evil when I was a baby, so also Joseph and Mary did to Jesus while he was a baby! They carried him and ran away!

He craved for food when hungry, wept when sad and slept when tired! All these are human attributes! He even cursed and abused people when necessary as human as he is!

All these are in your Bible!

Anyways! I think you're enlightened enough!

Lastly how's God conceived in a human womb and being nurtured by such womb? How is God passing through a human vagina causing child bearing pains to God's mother Mary?

Even in Mark 3:21, Jesus's family were calling him out of his mind! Would they call God mad?

CanadaOrBust:
It has nothing to do with what I think or the world. It has to do with LANGUAGE. A Shakespeare scholar would be someone who devotes his time studying Shakespeare plays in-dept and possibly did his PhD on them. That he can neither act nor direct a Shakespeare play has no bearing on it.

That's the worldly thinking not that of God he who will be recognized by God must live his life in harmony with what God said not just reading or studying it:

These words that I am commanding you today must be on your heart, and you must inculcate them in your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as a reminder on your hand, and they must be like a headband on your forehead. Write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. Deuteronomy 6:6-9

No wonder the greatest commandment says:

"You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength" Mark 12:30

So my friend it's the world that recognizes those people if they're unable to do God's will then they are nothing before my God:

‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” Matthew 15:8-9

AntiChristian:
Jehovah did say it in your Bible sha!

You can follow up here!
https://www.nairaland.com/5581249/punishment-not-following-yhwh-old

Please ask your question directly i don't follow strange links!

MaxInDHouse:
Please ask your question directly i don't follow strange links!

It's not a strange link!

It's my post here on nairaland!

AntiChristian:
It's not a strange link!
It's my post here on nairaland!

So ask your question!

MaxInDHouse:
So ask your question!

From Deuteronomy
Chapter 28
15-68

15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. 17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. 19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out. 20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. 21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. 22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. 23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. 24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed. 25 The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 And thy carcass shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away. 27 The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. 28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: 29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee. 30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof. 31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them. 32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine hand. 33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labors, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway: 34 So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. 35 The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head. 36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone. 37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee. 38 Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it. 39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit. 41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity. 42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume. 43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low. 44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: 46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever. 47 Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things; 48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in unclothedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee. 49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor show favor to the young: 51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee. 52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. 53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: 54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave: 55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, 57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates. 58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD; 59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance. 60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee. 61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed. 62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God. 63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. 64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. 65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: 66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life: 67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. 68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.

CanadaOrBust:
One of 4 things: 1) It is true 2) You are not interested in human worship 3) You can't 4) You no longer exist

You are not certain which is correct of the options you present?

AntiChristian:
There's nothing like Jewish God when God created Adam! Even Noah, Moses and Abraham doesn't know any Jewish God? When was the Jewish God created? Who amongst them worshipped Jesus as part of God? It is clear you'll cut out this part and respond to whatever you can! The core truth is that there was no trinity worship in the OT! Even in the first, second and third century till the Nicene, there was a debate on it. The Nicene creed ratified the worship of the trinity which was non-existent in the Bible.

Mention any part of your posts I have not responded to so far. You are the one not being honest enough to admit certain things make no sense.
Of course by "Jewish God" I mean God in that period and the attributes assigned to Him in that period. Try to be honest, with those attributes what do you think would happen if a group of people went into his temple and started worshipping Baal as Him and Son of Him?? Do you think they would grow and grow for 100 years talkless of 2000. And if they did, what does that say of Him? And is that possible considering His modus operanda? Try to answer HONESTLY from the heart, NOT talk non sequitur as usual (no offense).

The core message here is that Jesus was never worshipped by Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Jonah etc! How many thousands of years was that?

Jesus was part of the one God they worshipped -"Before Abraham, I am"

Jesus is simply human! A deficient human at that. Just as my mum and dad would protect me from all evil when I was a baby, so also Joseph and Mary did to Jesus while he was a baby! They carried him and ran away!

He craved for food when hungry, wept when sad and slept when tired! All these are human attributes! He even cursed and abused people when necessary as human as he is!

All these are in your Bible!

Anyways! I think you're enlightened enough!

Lastly how's God conceived in a human womb and being nurtured by such womb? How is God passing through a human vagina causing child bearing pains to God's mother Mary?

Even in Mark 3:21, Jesus's family were calling him out of his mind! Would they call God mad?

Of course Jesus was fully human. He is part of God who for a short period took up human nature and went through the entire human experience.

Look, it would have been much easier for the Bishops at Nicaea to conclude there was only one expression of God and Jesus was NOT part of it. But it is hard to read the Bible in totality and believe the Bible is true and still come to that conclusion. They prayed to God Almighty to guide their deliberations and every Christian after them have been praying and calling on same God since then. Do you honestly think if they were wrong He wouldn't have somehow set them right, considering His antecedents? Please honestly answer from the heart, no non-answer answers as usual.

MaxInDHouse:
That's the worldly thinking not that of God he who will be recognized by God must live his life in harmony with what God said not just reading or studying it:

These words that I am commanding you today must be on your heart, and you must inculcate them in your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as a reminder on your hand, and they must be like a headband on your forehead. Write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. Deuteronomy 6:6-9

No wonder the greatest commandment says:

"You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength" Mark 12:30

So my friend it's the world that recognizes those people if they're unable to do God's will then they are nothing before my God:

‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” Matthew 15:8-9

Once again, if you are unwilling to accept what "scholar" means in English language then invent your own language and define it as you wish. You have been fully advised as to what it means in English language.

honesttalk21:
You are not certain which is correct of the options you present?

What do you mean? Haven't I always said Christ is God, the Son of God?

CanadaOrBust:
What do you mean? Haven't I always said Christ is God, the Son of God?

Apologies if my question was unclear, but do you base your knowledge on the Bible or the Church?

CanadaOrBust:
What do you mean? Haven't I always said Christ is God, the Son of God?

Oh I see. I haven't been following you enough to see that in any case you presented four options.

You also believe that Christ was crucified?

I imagine you do and will like you to clarify if was Christ the Messiah, the son of God or the son of the father that was crucified?

CanadaOrBust:
One of 4 things: 1) It is true 2) You are not interested in human worship 3) You can't 4) You no longer exist

Allah allows people to persist in beliefs such as polytheism and the worship of the Trinity due to the fundamental principle of human free will and the nature of divine testing in this world.

In the Qur'an, Allah gives humans the freedom to choose their beliefs and actions, as this life is a test for each soul. Allah does not force guidance upon people but sends prophets and revelations to guide humanity, leaving them to make their own choices. As explained in Surah Al-Baqarah (2:256), "There is no compulsion in religion. Truth stands clear from error." This emphasizes that while the truth is clear, people have the free will to either accept or reject it.

Allah is patient and merciful, allowing people time to seek the truth and repent, as evidenced in Quran 16:61, where Allah says if He were to punish people immediately for their sins, no one would remain on earth.

At the same time, this world is not the final judgment; it is a place where people are given the opportunity to choose between truth and falsehood. The full accounting of people's beliefs and actions will occur in the Hereafter, as stated in the Qur'an: "Truly God curses the disbelievers and prepares for them a blazing flame.

This reflects Allah's wisdom in allowing people time and opportunities to turn back to the truth, but it also establishes that accountability will ultimately come in the Hereafter for those who persist in disbelief despite the clear signs and guidance from Allah.

The Quran which was revealed about 600 years after Yeshua clearly states there is no trinity or partner with the sole God and discourages belief in the trinity.

CanadaOrBust:
Mention any part of your posts I have not responded to so far. You are the one not being honest enough to admit certain things make no sense.
Of course by "Jewish God" I mean God in that period and the attributes assigned to Him in that period. Try to be honest, with those attributes what do you think would happen if a group of people went into his temple and started worshipping Baal as Him and Son of Him?? Do you think they would grow and grow for 100 years talkless of 2000. And if they did, what does that say of Him? And is that possible considering His modus operanda? Try to answer HONESTLY from the heart, NOT talk non sequitur as usual (no offense).

I don't think i need to mention the past posts... And i have been very honest here! Whatever we do Allah responds as He wills. This is not about you making sense out out it! Your sense and all human's senses are limited! You can't think for God! Even if they worshipped Baal, that doesn't mean God will kill them all. I gave you an example before which you skipped. About 70% of the world now are non-Christians. What will God do to them according to your acclaimed modus operandi for Him?

Jesus was part of the one God they worshipped -"Before Abraham, I am"

If this was true then there would be no need for two different genealogy for Jesus in Matthew and Luke! And again if he was before Abraham what about before Adam? He wasn't created yet!

The New Testament provides two accounts of the genealogy of Jesus, one in the Gospel of Matthew and another in the Gospel of Luke. Matthew starts with Abraham and works forwards, while Luke works back in time from Jesus to Adam. The two genealogies differ in an important way: Matthew follows the line of David's son Solomon, while Luke follows the line of Nathan, another son of David. Matthew emphasizes Jesus' royal lineage, tracing his ancestry through David back to Abraham, while Luke emphasizes his common humanity by going all the way back to Adam.
He should have used Adam not Abraham as Abraham was not the first man on earth!

Of course Jesus was fully human. He is part of God who for a short period took up human nature and went through the entire human experience.

So a part of God becomes fully human and became part of the genealogy of man from Adam? lol!

Look, it would have been much easier for the Bishops at Nicaea to conclude there was only one expression of God and Jesus was NOT part of it. But it is hard to read the Bible in totality and believe the Bible is true and still come to that conclusion. They prayed to God Almighty to guide their deliberations and every Christian after them have been praying and calling on same God since then. Do you honestly think if they were wrong He wouldn't have somehow set them right, considering His antecedents? Please honestly answer from the heart, no non-answer answers.

They can't bring about any conclusion of their own! Whoever the emperor supports wins! The fact that there was even controversy on the nature of Jesus, Basic tenets of the Christian faith and Trinity shows that they were unfounded!

The Bible as you have it today are interpreted by Trinitarians so they poke it in almost everywhere! Jesus was worshipped was used but in the old testament they would write Joseph's brothers bowed and put their heads on the ground to Joseph!

This your idea that God would correct erroneous people is wrong! There are Billions of erroneous people that will die in error and enter hell!

I asked one other question you skipped earlier!

If the earliest Christians within the first two centuries after Jesus did not need a New Testament to qualify their faith, why do modern Christians have such a need? If they did not sanction or consider any other writing beside the Old Testament to be scripture, then isn’t it a digression from the ‘true faith‘ of the earliest believers to incorporate something new as scripture? The first New Testament was codified and canonized by the heretic Marcion who believed that the Jewish YHWH was not the true God, the first time the largest Christian Church sanctioned a New Testament was during the Synod of Hippo in 393 CE, some 360+ years after Jesus.

CanadaOrBust:
Once again, if you are unwilling to accept what "scholar" means in English language then invent your own language and define it as you wish. You have been fully advised as to what it means in English language.

Thanks for your time Sir! Proverbs 17:14

AntiChristian:
I don't think i need to mention the past posts... And i have been very honest here! Whatever we do Allah responds as He wills. This is not about you making sense out out it! Your sense and all human's senses are limited! You can't think for God! Even if they worshipped Baal, that doesn't mean God will kill them all. I gave you an example before which you skipped. About 70% of the world now are non-Christians. What will God do to them according to your acclaimed modus operandi for Him?

This is what I mean by dishonesty and insincerity. Someone NOT talking from the heart as a human being. I answered this question b4. Maybe u missed it.
No other religion in the history of the world has a man been worshipped as Son of or part of God of Israel. Other religions worship/worshipped other gods! I ask you again, what would God be if He does nothing for 2000 years, when you pray to Him directly and continually ask for His guidance but your worship is simultaneously wrongfully directed to another as part of Him but who is neither part of Him nor worthy of worship?? Answer that as an HONEST HUMAN BEING!

If this was true then there would be no need for two different genealogy for Jesus in Matthew and Luke! And again if he was before Abraham what about before Adam? He wasn't created yet!

The New Testament provides two accounts of the genealogy of Jesus, one in the Gospel of Matthew and another in the Gospel of Luke. Matthew starts with Abraham and works forwards, while Luke works back in time from Jesus to Adam. The two genealogies differ in an important way: Matthew follows the line of David's son Solomon, while Luke follows the line of Nathan, another son of David. Matthew emphasizes Jesus' royal lineage, tracing his ancestry through David back to Abraham, while Luke emphasizes his common humanity by going all the way back to Adam.
He should have used Adam not Abraham as Abraham was not the first man on earth!

So a part of God becomes fully human and became part of the genealogy of man from Adam? lol!

They can't bring about any conclusion of their own! Whoever the emperor supports wins! The fact that there was even controversy on the nature of Jesus, Basic tenets of the Christian faith and Trinity shows that they were unfounded!

The Bible as you have it today are interpreted by Trinitarians so they poke it in almost everywhere! Jesus was worshipped was used but in the old testament they would write Joseph's brothers bowed and put their heads on the ground to Joseph!

This your idea that God would correct erroneous people is wrong! There are Billions of erroneous people that will die in error and enter hell!

Here's the full quote below. Read it carefully

52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

I asked one other question you skipped earlier!

If the earliest Christians within the first two centuries after Jesus did not need a New Testament to qualify their faith, why do modern Christians have such a need? If they did not sanction or consider any other writing beside the Old Testament to be scripture, then isn’t it a digression from the ‘true faith‘ of the earliest believers to incorporate something new as scripture? The first New Testament was codified and canonized by the heretic Marcion who believed that the Jewish YHWH was not the true God, the first time the largest Christian Church sanctioned a New Testament was during the Synod of Hippo in 393 CE, some 360+ years after Jesus.

Christians do NOT need the NT at all. Christianity is about following a Person NOT some book or rules. You receive Christ in your heart and you're marked as belonging to Him!

Petalss:
Apologies if my question was unclear, but do you base your knowledge on the Bible or the Church?

My belief is based on a combination of things that together result in KNOWING

honesttalk21:
Oh I see. I haven't been following you enough to see that in any case you presented four options.

You also believe that Christ was crucified?

I imagine you do and will like you to clarify if was Christ the Messiah, the son of God or the son of the father that was crucified?

Your question is unclear

honesttalk21:
Allah allows people to persist in beliefs such as polytheism and the worship of the Trinity due to the fundamental principle of human free will and the nature of divine testing in this world.

In the Qur'an, Allah gives humans the freedom to choose their beliefs and actions, as this life is a test for each soul. Allah does not force guidance upon people but sends prophets and revelations to guide humanity, leaving them to make their own choices. As explained in Surah Al-Baqarah (2:256), "There is no compulsion in religion. Truth stands clear from error." This emphasizes that while the truth is clear, people have the free will to either accept or reject it.

Allah is patient and merciful, allowing people time to seek the truth and repent, as evidenced in Quran 16:61, where Allah says if He were to punish people immediately for their sins, no one would remain on earth.

At the same time, this world is not the final judgment; it is a place where people are given the opportunity to choose between truth and falsehood. The full accounting of people's beliefs and actions will occur in the Hereafter, as stated in the Qur'an: "Truly God curses the disbelievers and prepares for them a blazing flame.

This reflects Allah's wisdom in allowing people time and opportunities to turn back to the truth, but it also establishes that accountability will ultimately come in the Hereafter for those who persist in disbelief despite the clear signs and guidance from Allah.

The Quran which was revealed about 600 years after Yeshua clearly states there is no trinity or partner with the sole God and discourages belief in the trinity.

That's NOT the nature of God Almighty as presented in the OT.
If you pray to Him directly and continually ask for His guidance but your worship is simultaneously wrongfully directed to another as part of Him but who is neither part of Him nor worthy of worship, God Almighty as presented in OT would NOT do nothing for 2000 years!

CanadaOrBust:
This is what I mean by dishonesty and insincerity. Someone NOT talking from the heart as a human being. I answered this question b4. Maybe u missed it.
No other religion in the history of the world has a man been worshipped as Son of or part of God of Israel.

There are many of such gods in history if you look into the gods of India and Rome! And i wonder why the racial discrimination! God of Israel! God of Chosen! God of Adeboye! God of my pastor! Abraham didn't worship such God!

Other religions worship/worshipped other gods! I ask you again, what would God be if He does nothing for 2000 years, when you pray to Him directly and continually ask for His guidance but your worship is simultaneously wrongfully directed to another as part of Him but who is neither part of Him nor worthy of worship?? Answer that as an HONEST HUMAN BEING!

God won't be God if He does nothing! The definition of God in Islam is the Cherisher and Sustainer of everything! Do you even have any verse for this your thought process? Like those who didn't accept Jesus in the NT God just killed them like John the Baptist was beheaded or like Jesus was Crucified?

Here's the full quote below. Read it carefully

52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

I understood the context! Was Jesus created just before Abraham and after Noah and Adam? And why does God have two different genealogies? Those were from the question asked earlier on this!

Christians do NOT need the NT at all. Christianity is about following a Person NOT some book or rules. You receive Christ in your heart and you're marked as belonging to Him!

You are just avoiding the question!
How did you embrace Christianity? If the New Testament is not needed why did the Church father selected the books for it out of many books available then? How did the early Christians of the first three centuries know Jesus without the NT?
I remember Gideons Bible shared to us back then, a copy of the New Testament! Where did Christ ever told anyone to receive him if not Paul?

MaxInDHouse:
Thanks for your time Sir! Proverbs 17:14

You too my good buddy, you too

AntiChristian:
There are many of such gods in history if you look into the gods of India and Rome! And i wonder why the racial discrimination! God of Israel! God of Chosen! God of Adeboye! God of my pastor! Abraham didn't worship such God!

God won't be God if He does nothing! The definition of God in Islam is the Cherisher and Sustainer of everything! Do you even have any verse for this your thought process? Like those who didn't accept Jesus in the NT God just killed them like John the Baptist was beheaded or like Jesus was Crucified?

There are many gods people worship. Christianity is the only religion you'd be worshipping Almighty God "of Israel" and simultaneously worshipping a once human as His son.
So we agree, God has done nothing but grow the church for 2000 years as His worshippers, under His guidance, also worshipped His Son!

I understood the context! Was Jesus created just before Abraham and after Noah and Adam? And why does God have two different genealogies? Those were from the question asked earlier on this!

I don't understand your obsession with this at all. He was addressing children of Abraham, why would He be talking of Adam??!
Lord Jesus was never created. He's always been part of God

You are just avoiding the question!
How did you embrace Christianity? If the New Testament is not needed why did the Church father selected the books for it out of many books available then? How did the early Christians of the first three centuries know Jesus without the NT?
I remember Gideons Bible shared to us back then, a copy of the New Testament! Where did Christ ever told anyone to receive him if not Paul?

A rather dumb question. How did early Christians who had no NT adopt Christianity? Yet they were the most fervent Christians. You don't acquire Christianity from a book. A person says a few words to you, then the Spirit goes to work in you. It is the Spirit that does it NOT any book

CanadaOrBust:
That's NOT the nature of God Almighty as presented in the OT.
If you pray to Him directly and continually ask for His guidance but your worship is simultaneously wrongfully directed to another as part of Him but who is neither part of Him nor worthy of worship, God Almighty as presented in OT would NOT do nothing for 2000 years!

In the 2000 years hasn't there been different views as to whether others and particularly Jesus and the holy spirit should be worshipped beside or alongside God?

Was this not a cause of disagreement between Arius, a presbyter from Bishop Alexander of Alexandria?

Was the view of Arius not supported by the Eusebius of Nicomedia and Eusebius of Caesarea while Athanasius, a deacon under Alexander supported the bishop.

The rejection of a trinity or worshipping another along with God was well presented in the revelation of the Quran.

Do followers of Judaism agree with worshipping another along with God?

When God through all his prophets have said only one God should be worshipped over the several millennia of existence is it to be forcefully corrected within your view of 2000 years?

CanadaOrBust:
Your question is unclear

Do you believe Jesus called the Christ was crucified?

Who exactly was crucified?
Jesus called Christ the Messiah, Jesus the son of God or Jesus the son of the father?

honesttalk21:
In the 2000 years hasn't there been different views as to whether others and particularly Jesus and the holy spirit should be worshipped beside or alongside God?

Was this not a cause of disagreement between Arius, a presbyter from Bishop Alexander of Alexandria?

Was the view of Arius not supported by the Eusebius of Nicomedia and Eusebius of Caesarea while Athanasius, a deacon under Alexander supported the bishop.

The rejection of a trinity or worshipping another along with God was well presented in the revelation of the Quran.

Do followers of Judaism agree with worshipping another along with God?

Don't pretend you don't understand. God Almighty "of Israel" is NOT the type that would do nothing in such a situation. He would do something. Something that would clearly show where He stands. And He has!
What He did is, exponentially grow the church for 2000 years as His worshippers, under His guidance, also worshipped His Son!

CanadaOrBust:
There are many gods people worship. Christianity is the only religion you'd be worshipping Almighty God "of Israel" and simultaneously worshipping a once human as His son.

Okay na Guiness record be this? God must have a human part/experience to be God? Okay What an impressive CV for your God! But i believe "God" should be above all that debasing attributes!

So we agree, God has done nothing but grow the church for 2000 years as His worshippers, under His guidance, also worshipped His Son!

Grow? Where's the growth? When over half of the Christians today are not really Christians?

I don't understand your obsession with this at all. He was addressing children of Abraham, why would He be talking of Adam??!
Lord Jesus was never created. He's always been part of God

Are we not all Children of Adam and Noah too? He existed before Abraham but not before Adam or Noah! And why did he have two different genealogies in the Bible?

A rather dumb question. How did early Christians who had no NT adopt Christianity? Yet they were the most fervent Christians. You don't acquire Christianity from a book. A person says a few words to you, then the Spirit goes to work in you. It is the Spirit that does it NOT any book

Why not answer the dumb question and expose yourself? You claim the NT is not needed but it sells about 5 Billion copies!
You would rather avoid questions but call question dumb! Where did Christ ever told anyone to receive him if not Paul?

AntiChristian:
Okay na Guiness record be this? God must have a human part/experience to be God? Okay What an impressive CV for your God! But i believe "God" should be above all that debasing attributes!

Then u don't believe in Almighty God of OT

Grow? Where's the growth? When over half of the Christians today are not really Christians?

When Christ died he had no followers, even his closest friends denied him. Compare today, despite Roman persecutions. ONLY God can do that.

Are we not all Children of Adam and Noah too? He existed before Abraham but not before Adam or Noah! And why did he have two different genealogies in the Bible?

The Bible has contradictions. Once again, Chris was never created. He's always been part of God

Why not answer the dumb question and expose yourself? You claim the NT is not needed but it sells about 5 Billion copies!
You would rather avoid questions but call question dumb! Where did Christ ever told anyone to receive him if not Paul?

Once again, the Bible is God's inspired word but written by humans and therefore has contradictions. It helps in Christianity but Christianity is NOT about the Bible.
As to the question, I didn't understand what you were asking. Christ said this, NOT Paul:
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him, and he with me" 

Say this prayer below.
Nice chatting with you. Ciao!