₦airaland Forum

In addition perhaps the core of the problem is a feeling of exclusivity of prophethood to Israel.

Do you ignore the non Israelite prophets?

1. Balaam, in the Book of Numbers 22-24 was a prophet from Mesopotamia

2.Cyrus the Great, who is referred to as my anointed in the Book of Isaiah 44:28; Isaiah 45:1-3. He was not an Israelite but is chosen by God to fulfill divine purposes, specifically to allow the Israelites to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple after the Babylonian exile

3. Other person's such as Job and his friends Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar are also considered as prophets in the Talmud
.

honesttalk21:
Perhaps you consider the meaning of Ishmael which is God hears

Genesis 16:11-12

“Here you are pregnant, and you will give birth to a son, and you must name him Ishʹma·el, for Jehovah has heard your affliction. 12 He will be a wild donkey of a man. His hand will be against everyone, and everyone’s hand will be against him, and he will dwell opposite all his brothers.” NWT

“You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” NIV

"Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." KJV

All these proved that Ishmael and his children will not have peace because they will always look for trouble.
So instead of arguing against the book written by Israelites why not pick up the one written by Ishmaelites of their time and let's see how we can compare not reading what Israelites wrote and trying to contradict it with what modern day Arabs told you?

honesttalk21:
In addition perhaps the core of the problem is a feeling of exclusivity of prophethood to Israel.
Do you ignore the non Israelite prophets?
1. Balaam, in the Book of Numbers 22-24 was a prophet from Mesopotamia
2.Cyrus the Great, who is referred to as my anointed in the Book of Isaiah 44:28; Isaiah 45:1-3. He was not an Israelite but is chosen by God to fulfill divine purposes, specifically to allow the Israelites to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple after the Babylonian exile
3. Other person's such as Job and his friends Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar are also considered as prophets in the Talmud.

You don't get it do you?
They are not part of the covenant to establish pure worship that's why the true God always call Himself the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob as the covenant to establish pure worship would be centered on that lineage!

MaxInDHouse:
Genesis 16:11-12

“Here you are pregnant, and you will give birth to a son, and you must name him Ishʹma·el, for Jehovah has heard your affliction. 12 He will be a wild donkey of a man. His hand will be against everyone, and everyone’s hand will be against him, and he will dwell opposite all his brothers.” NWT

“You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” NIV

"Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." KJV

All these proved that Ishmael and his children will not have peace because they will always look for trouble.
So instead of arguing against the book written by Israelites why not pick up the one written by Ishmaelites of their time and let's see how we can compare not reading what Israelites wrote and trying to contradict it with what modern day Arabs told you?

Great display of English translations of the Hebrew text of Genesis written somewhere around 1500-300BC.

Do you imagine this as a soothing and convincing message from an angel of God to Hagai that will convince her to go back to where she fled from?

The most appropriate translation is:
He will be fertile of man. His hand will be with everyone. And everyone’s hand will be with him. And he will live among all his brothers

MaxInDHouse:
You don't get it do you?
They are not part of the covenant to establish pure worship that's why the true God always call Himself the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob as the covenant to establish pure worship would be centered on that lineage!

The covenant between God and Abraham is first mentioned in Genesis 12:2-3, God promises Abraham, "I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you and whoever curses you I will curse, and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

This promise to Abraham extends far beyond just the Israelites. It is a universal covenant that offers blessings to all who choose to follow God's teachings.

honesttalk21:
The most appropriate translation is:
He will be fertile of man. His hand will be with everyone. And everyone’s hand will be with him. And he will live among all his brothers.

As you were taught but not found in the Bible!

honesttalk21:
This promise to Abraham extends far beyond just the Israelites. It is a universal covenant that offers blessings to all who choose to follow God's teachings.

Through the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all the people of the nations will be blessed so it's not that any nation can just wake up one day to present someone claiming he is a prophet of God NO all the prophets that will bring everlasting blessings to mankind will come through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!

MaxInDHouse:
As you were taught but not found in the Bible!

Kindly find the Samaritan text of the Torah, Sefer Bereshit 16:12 confirming the phrase para adam literally “fruitful man”.

MaxInDHouse:
Through the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all the people of the nations will be blessed so it's not that any nation can just wake up one day to present someone claiming he is a prophet of God NO all the prophets that will bring everlasting blessings to mankind will come through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!

Did Balaam descend from Isaac? and Job if you consider the Septuagint that identifies him as Jobab, who was a king of Edom Genesis 36:33. If this identification holds true, it would imply that Job was related to Isaac through Esau but would not be considered an Israelite since he descends from Esau rather than Jacob.

As an outlier when Hagai left or was ostracized from Abraham was Ishmael a baby or teenager ref. Genesis 21?

honesttalk21:
Kindly find the Samaritan text of the Torah, Sefer Bereshit 16:12 confirming the phrase para adam literally “fruitful man”.

What has this book been able to achieve in the midst of its readers?
My friend it's not just about picking books with different claims regarding Bible characters but what has the readers of such books done with it?
God promised that the information from Him will help His true worshipers to settle their disparities peacefully among themselves, divert their resources into production of food and information materials stop producing, buying, selling and using of weapons and vow never to raise weapons against anyone again {Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3} so that all worshipers of the true God can relate as one family as if they're speaking the same language. Zephaniah 3:9
So if you're getting some books claimed to have been inspired by this same God you need to ask yourself "what has this information helped it's readers to achieve among themselves?" that's what Jesus meant when he said it's by their FRUITS that you will know those belonging to the true God! Matthew 7:16-18
I'm sorry that's why i don't just get carried away with some books that people claimed are inspired!

honesttalk21:
Did Balaam descend from Isaac? and Job if you consider the Septuagint that identifies him as Jobab, who was a king of Edom Genesis 36:33. If this identification holds true, it would imply that Job was related to Isaac through Esau but would not be considered an Israelite since he descends from Esau rather than Jacob.

As an outlier when Hagai left or was ostracized from Abraham was Ishmael a baby or teenager ref. Genesis 21?

All these people never had any impact on how true worship should be, they're are just part of the stories.
For instance has Balaam or Job add anything to the tenets of your religion?
The answer is NO.
That's why you can't mention them when it comes to tenets of your faith!

MaxInDHouse:
What has this book been able to achieve in the midst of its readers?
My friend it's not just about picking books with different claims regarding Bible characters but what has the readers of such books done with it?
God promised that the information from Him will help His true worshipers to settle their disparities peacefully among themselves, divert their resources into production of food and information materials stop producing, buying, selling and using of weapons and vow never to raise weapons against anyone again {Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3} so that all worshipers of the true God can relate as one family as if they're speaking the same language. Zephaniah 3:9
So if you're getting some books claimed to have been inspired by this same God you need to ask yourself "what has this information helped it's readers to achieve among themselves?" that's what Jesus meant when he said it's by their FRUITS that you will know those belonging to the true God! Matthew 7:16-18
I'm sorry that's why i don't just get carried away with some books that people claimed are inspired!

Are you boldly saying that the Samaritan Pentateuch has no relevance to the Christian or Jewish collection of the books of the Torah?

The Samaritans split from mainstream Judaism sometime after the Babylonian Exile (6th century BCE). They claim their version of the Torah represents an older, purer tradition, predating the development of the Jewish Masoretic Text.


The Dead Sea Scrolls provide evidence that some readings found in the Samaritan Pentateuch match more closely with ancient Hebrew texts than the Masoretic Text does.

The Samaritan Pentateuch is an important witness to the textual history of the Torah.

MaxInDHouse:
All these people never had any impact on how true worship should be, they're are just part of the stories.
For instance has Balaam or Job add anything to the tenets of your religion?
The answer is NO.
That's why you can't mention them when it comes to tenets of your faith!

The people have no impact but are worthy to be kept in your book? Indeed you choose what pleases you to get carried away with and ignore the others that don't suit you or you failed to notice.

Whether Balaam or Job ads to the tenets of Islam isn't the question. Were they prophets mentioned in your book of non Israelite origin?

You refuse to respond was Ishmael a baby when he was sent away with his mother Hagai from Abraham's dwelling place?

This will prove if he was old enough to have started knowing the God Abraham worshipped or not.

MaxInDHouse:
All these proved that Ishmael and his children will not have peace because they will always look for trouble.
So instead of arguing against the book written by Israelites why not pick up the one written by Ishmaelites of their time and let's see how we can compare not reading what Israelites wrote and trying to contradict it with what modern day Arabs told you?

What a wonderful God! It’s perplexing to think that the peace-loving God has destined Ishmael, the unborn child, and his descendants to be unpeaceful according to your Scripture. How can this be considered goodnews/ blessing for Abraham?

Rather than bringing comfort and hope, it raises questions about the nature of divine justice and mercy. If God promises blessings and peace, why would He allow one of Abraham's sons to inherit a legacy of conflict?

MaxInDHouse:
As you were taught but not found in the Bible!

In traditional ancient Hebrew, verbs used with animals are often not used with mankind. The language distinguishes between the actions and characteristics of animals and humans. A common rendition of Genesis 16:12 translates as "He shall be as a wild ass of a man; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him.

However, a closer examination of this by scholars show that this translation may not accurately convey the intended meaning of the original Hebrew text. The use of the verb "be fertile" in the phrase "He shall be as a wild ass of a man" can be seen as problematic, as it suggests a purely animalistic nature. Instead, a more appropriate translation should be "He will be fertile of man," implying that the subject will be fruitful in terms of human relationships and interactions.

Furthermore, the phrase "his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him" when reexamined shows that rather than suggesting a violent or antagonistic nature, this phrase could be translated as "His hand will be with everyone, and everyone's hand will be with him." This interpretation emphasizes the idea of mutual cooperation and interconnectedness among individuals, rather than conflict and strife.

References:- Alter, Robert. The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary. W.W. Norton & Company, 2019.

- Bird, Phyllis. "Gendering God's Wild Donkey: Hagar and the Wild Ass of the Hebrew Bible." Journal for the Study of the Old Testament, vol. 28, no. 5, 2004, pp. 267-284.

Now tell me which mother will go back to bare a wild man who will always be at war?

honesttalk21:
Are you boldly saying that the Samaritan Pentateuch has no relevance to the Christian or Jewish collection of the books of the Torah?
The Samaritans split from mainstream Judaism sometime after the Babylonian Exile (6th century BCE). They claim their version of the Torah represents an older, purer tradition, predating the development of the Jewish Masoretic Text. The Dead Sea Scrolls provide evidence that some readings found in the Samaritan Pentateuch match more closely with ancient Hebrew texts than the Masoretic Text does. The Samaritan Pentateuch is an important witness to the textual history of the Torah.

Read what Jesus said about the Samaritans in the Bible book of John 4:20-22 there Jesus made it clear that Samaritans are worshiping what they don't know so how do you expect me to take whatever comes from them seriously?

honesttalk21:
The people have no impact but are worthy to be kept in your book? Indeed you choose what pleases you to get carried away with and ignore the others that don't suit you or you failed to notice. Whether Balaam or Job ads to the tenets of Islam isn't the question. Were they prophets mentioned in your book of non Israelite origin? You refuse to respond was Ishmael a baby when he was sent away with his mother Hagai from Abraham's dwelling place? This will prove if he was old enough to have started knowing the God Abraham worshipped or not.

There are stories of many nice people in the Bible but they don't have anything to do with the establishment of pure worship that's why you can't point to any positive impact those people have on the establishment of pure worship other than they were nice people just like most of our ancestors.

Petalss:
What a wonderful God! It’s perplexing to think that the peace-loving God has destined Ishmael, the unborn child, and his descendants to be unpeaceful according to your Scripture. How can this be considered goodnews/ blessing for Abraham? Rather than bringing comfort and hope, it raises questions about the nature of divine justice and mercy. If God promises blessings and peace, why would He allow one of Abraham's sons to inherit a legacy of conflict?

God only foretold what the child will become not that God DESTINED him to be so, your religion makes wrong conclusion on many things if God is the one who destined all things then who is at fault when talking about wrongdoing?

honesttalk21:
In traditional ancient Hebrew, verbs used with animals are often not used with mankind. The language distinguishes between the actions and characteristics of animals and humans. A common rendition of Genesis 16:12 translates as "He shall be as a wild ass of a man; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him.

However, a closer examination of this by scholars show that this translation may not accurately convey the intended meaning of the original Hebrew text. The use of the verb "be fertile" in the phrase "He shall be as a wild ass of a man" can be seen as problematic, as it suggests a purely animalistic nature. Instead, a more appropriate translation should be "He will be fertile of man," implying that the subject will be fruitful in terms of human relationships and interactions.

Furthermore, the phrase "his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him" when reexamined shows that rather than suggesting a violent or antagonistic nature, this phrase could be translated as "His hand will be with everyone, and everyone's hand will be with him." This interpretation emphasizes the idea of mutual cooperation and interconnectedness among individuals, rather than conflict and strife.

References:- Alter, Robert. The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary. W.W. Norton & Company, 2019.

- Bird, Phyllis. "Gendering God's Wild Donkey: Hagar and the Wild Ass of the Hebrew Bible." Journal for the Study of the Old Testament, vol. 28, no. 5, 2004, pp. 267-284.

Now tell me which mother will go back to bare a wild man who will always be at war?

Highlighted simply means TERRORISM to me!

MaxInDHouse:
Highlighted simply means TERRORISM to me!

Indeed you don't even study your scripture deeply to understand. Note however my inclusion as a premise which from my conclusion you see I don't agree with.

Further findings based on the definition you and many adopt that I disagree with.

16:12 "a wild donkey of a man" This root (BDB 825) means

Akkadian ‒ mule
Assyrian ‒ wild mule
Arabic ‒ wild ass
Hebrew ‒ wild ass or horse (the Anchor Bible Commentary on Genesis, p. 118)
[b]But make note this was not a derogatory comment in the Ancient Near East. These animals were used for sacrifices in Mesopotamia. They were highly valued and admired. It denotes his isolationistic tendencies (i.e., nomadic herdsman). Ishmael is going to love his freedom and will live a nomadic life. [/b]The next two poetic lines describe this nomadic existence (self reliant, trust no one, make no alliances).

▣
NASB  "he will live to the east of all his brothers"
NKJV  "and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren"
NRSV  "and he shall live at odds with all his kin"
TEV  "He will live apart from all his relatives"
NJB  "living his life in defiance of all his kinsmen"
JPSOA  "He shall dwell alongside of all his kinsmen"
LXX  "he shall live facing all his kinfolk"
Peshitta  "he shall dwell on the borders of all his brethren"

MaxInDHouse:
Read what Jesus said about the Samaritans in the Bible book of John 4:20-22 there Jesus made it clear that Samaritans are worshiping what they don't know so how do you expect me to take whatever comes from them seriously?

How come there still exist some Samaritans sticking to their form of worship? Is it that they are too far from the Jews to be taught differently?

MaxInDHouse:
There are stories of many nice people in the Bible but they don't have anything to do with the establishment of pure worship that's why you can't point to any positive impact those people have on the establishment of pure worship other than they were nice people just like most of our ancestors.

Balaam’s story shows that true worship involves obedience to God’s commands rather than succumbing to external pressures or personal gain. He could only speak what God commanded (Numbers 24:13) which reinforces the idea that genuine worship must align with divine instruction rather than human desires.

Job's story demonstrates that true worship does not depend on circumstances but is rooted in a relationship with God. Throughout his trials, Job maintained his integrity and continued to seek understanding from God rather than turning away from Him.

Hagar’s narrative contributes significantly to our understanding of pure worship through themes of faithfulness amidst adversity, recognition of God’s presence in personal struggles, and the lasting impact on future generations’ spiritual journeys. Her experiences encourage believers across different faiths to embody similar qualities trusting in divine providence.

Are these what you claim bares no significance to following the true faith?


You still refuse to comment on the age of Ishmael when he left Abraham's house with his mother Hagar?

You don't know or your scripture doesn't mention or give pointers to it?

honesttalk21:
How come there still exist some Samaritans sticking to their form of worship? Is it that they are too far from the Jews to be taught differently?

We are Christians so what Jesus CHRIST says is most important to us!

honesttalk21:
Balaam’s story shows that true worship involves obedience to God’s commands rather than succumbing to external pressures or personal gain. He could only speak what God commanded (Numbers 24:13) which reinforces the idea that genuine worship must align with divine instruction rather than human desires.

Job's story demonstrates that true worship does not depend on circumstances but is rooted in a relationship with God. Throughout his trials, Job maintained his integrity and continued to seek understanding from God rather than turning away from Him.

Hagar’s narrative contributes significantly to our understanding of pure worship through themes of faithfulness amidst adversity, recognition of God’s presence in personal struggles, and the lasting impact on future generations’ spiritual journeys. Her experiences encourage believers across different faiths to embody similar qualities trusting in divine providence.

Are these what you claim bares no significance to following the true faith?


You still refuse to comment on the age of Ishmael when he left Abraham's house with his mother Hagar?

You don't know or your scripture doesn't mention or give pointers to it?

Neither Balaam, Job, Hagar or Ishmael has any positive impact on the establishment of pure worship in the Old Testament it started with Moses and the laws.

MaxInDHouse:
We are Christians so what Jesus CHRIST says is most important to us!

Samaritans do not embrace the belief of Jesus as the Son of God and Savior for all humanity.Instead, they recognize Jesus as a prophet or teacher but do not accept him as divine or part of a Trinitarian understanding common in Christian theology. Their belief system emphasizes adherence to their own religious laws and customs rather than aligning completely with either Judaism or Christianity.

MaxInDHouse:
Neither Balaam, Job, Hagar or Ishmael has any positive impact on the establishment of pure worship in the Old Testament it started with Moses and the laws.

Do you say the resilience of Job despite his strenuous trials isn't worth emulating as an encouragement to remain steadfast in pure worship?

honesttalk21:
Samaritans do not embrace the belief of Jesus as the Son of God and Savior for all humanity.Instead, they recognize Jesus as a prophet or teacher but do not accept him as divine or part of a Trinitarian understanding common in Christian theology. Their belief system emphasizes adherence to their own religious laws and customs rather than aligning completely with either Judaism or Christianity.

There's no need deliberating on Samaritans as Jesus said:

"They worship what they don't know" John 4:22

honesttalk21:
Do you say the resilience of Job despite his strenuous trials isn't worth emulating as an encouragement to remain steadfast in pure worship?

Job stories wasn't about pure worship but will to do what is right anyone can do the same even worshipers of idols can do likewise that's why his story doesn't make any impact on true religion rather it's all about integrity which anyone can have whether a worshiper of the true God or idol worshiper.
Regarding people like Job this is what the Bible said:

"For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. Romans 2:14-15

Job chose to be an integrity keeper {Job 27:5} that's the quality God loves but as for his form of worship it has no bearing on the pure worship God established in Israel the same quality God saw in David {Psalms 26:1,11} that doesn't mean all integrity keepers know about pure worship that's why Job offered sacrifices due to what he doesn't even know about! Job 1:5

MaxInDHouse:
There's no need deliberating on Samaritans as Jesus said:

"They worship what they don't know" John 4:22

The Samaritans believed in the God of Israel and followed the teachings of the Torah, but they had certain theological differences with the Jews, such as where to worship.

What was defective in the Torah? Did Jesus say the Torah was faulty or criticised the clergy for not sticking strictly to It? Is this not good reason for the Samaritans to distance themselves from the Jewish belief?

MaxInDHouse:
Job stories wasn't about pure worship but will to do what is right anyone can do the same even worshipers of idols can do likewise that's why his story doesn't make any impact on true religion rather it's all about integrity which anyone can have whether a worshiper of the true God or idol worshiper.
Regarding people like Job this is what the Bible said:

"For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. Romans 2:14-15

Job chose to be an integrity keeper {Job 27:5} that's the quality God loves but as for his form of worship it has no bearing on the pure worship God established in Israel the same quality God saw in David {Psalms 26:1,11} that doesn't mean all integrity keepers know about pure worship that's why Job offered sacrifices due to what he doesn't even know about! Job 1:5

Job 31:24-28: “If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, ‘You are my security,’ if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained, if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, so that my heart was secretly enticed and my hand offered them a kiss of homage, then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high.

Is worshipping another other than God not an act of unfaithfulness to God?

Then in Job 2:9 His wife said to him, Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die.

Does this not show Job's wife despair and suggesting that renouncing God might be a way for Job to escape his suffering?

Job responded in Job 2:10 with You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?

This response reinforces that he remains committed to worshiping God despite his suffering.

You remain resolute in not answering what the age of Ishmael will have been when he left his father's house according to your Bible?

Do you need to call a friend for help as it appears you are unable to answer?

honesttalk21:
The Samaritans believed in the God of Israel and followed the teachings of the Torah, but they had certain theological differences with the Jews, such as where to worship.

What was defective in the Torah? Did Jesus say the Torah was faulty or criticised the clergy for not sticking strictly to It? Is this not good reason for the Samaritans to distance themselves from the Jewish belief?


Job 31:24-28: “If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, ‘You are my security,’ if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained, if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, so that my heart was secretly enticed and my hand offered them a kiss of homage, then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high.

Is worshipping another other than God not an act of unfaithfulness to God?

Then in Job 2:9 His wife said to him, Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die.

Does this not show Job's wife despair and suggesting that renouncing God might be a way for Job to escape his suffering?

Job responded in Job 2:10 with You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?

This response reinforces that he remains committed to worshiping God despite his suffering.

You remain resolute in not answering what the age of Ishmael will have been when he left his father's house according to your Bible?

Do you need to call a friend for help as it appears you are unable to answer?

All true worshipers have integrity whether they worship the true God or false so it's their integrity that attracts the true God not what they are worshiping presently! Joshua 24:2

What concerns me with Ishmael's age?
But since you insist on Ishmael i will tell you what the Bible says, he was 14 years when Abraham sent him and his mother away!

MaxInDHouse:
All true worshipers have integrity whether they worship the true God or false so it's their integrity that attracts the true God not what they are worshiping presently! Joshua 24:2

What concerns me with Ishmael's age?
But since you insist on Ishmael i will tell you what the Bible says, he was 14 years when Abraham sent him and his mother away!

Integrity in false or idol worship? You refuse to see the push of Job's wife. No problem.


Ok. More likely he was 14 when Isaac was born and between 16 and 17 when same Isaac was weaned; considering weaning could occur between ages 2 to 3 years or even later, based on historical practice.

At this age is he easily put under the shrub and lifted up by his mother Hagar? He was no longer a toddler.

Do you not find this strange?

WHEN THERE IS LIFE, THERE'S HOPE.
WHEN YOU HAVE THE POWER AND MIGHT OF ORISAYINKA IN YOUR SADDLE, YOU CAN DO ALL THINGS.

honesttalk21:
Integrity in false or idol worship? You refuse to see the push of Job's wife. No problem.

The God of Abraham is different from your Allah that's what you people don't know, think about people born into idolatry is it their fault?
So the true God doesn't judge people based on circumstances rather He is looking for integrity keepers wherever they may be found no matter the religion of their ancestors.
Abraham and all his ancestors were idolaters before God called him out and it was due to his being an integrity keeper. Joshua 24:2

honesttalk21:
Ok. More likely he was 14 when Isaac was born and between 16 and 17 when same Isaac was weaned; considering weaning could occur between ages 2 to 3 years or even later, based on historical practice.
At this age is he easily put under the shrub and lifted up his mother Hagar? He was no longer a toddler.
Do you not find this strange?

There is nothing strange in that, it's not all children that grows at the same pace so if you have a child who grows faster than his or her age that doesn't mean all children grows the same way.
Mothers are strong anytime case regarding their children arises infact a woman with stamina can back a 20 years old man talkless of her own child.

MaxInDHouse:
The God of Abraham is different from your Allah that's what you people don't know, think about people born into idolatry is it their fault?
So the true God doesn't judge people based on circumstances rather He is looking for integrity keepers wherever they may be found no matter the religion of their ancestors.
Abraham and all his ancestors were idolaters before God called him out and it was due to his being an integrity keeper. Joshua 24:2

It's quite unfortunate the extent of envy as Isaac is not the first born. Deuteronomy 21:17
He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him. Consider what verses 15 and 16 say before this.

In Genesis 17:20, God acknowledges Ishmael and promises to bless him, making him the father of twelve princes and a great nation. This shows that Ishmael was indeed part of God's plan.

God promises Abraham that his descendants would become as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore (Genesis 15:5, 22:17).

The most significant aspects of the covenant is the promise that through Abraham, "all nations of the earth will be blessed" (Genesis 12:3, 22:18).

Remember too that in Genesis 16:10-12, God speaks to Hagar, Ishmael's mother, after she flees from Sarah, saying, "I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count." This mirrors the promise God made to Abraham regarding his descendants. Ishmael is specifically mentioned as the one through whom this promise will be fulfilled.

Through the Covenant of Circumcision God reaffirms His covenant with Abram, changes his name to Abraham, and commands circumcision as the sign of the covenant. Abraham circumcised and did same to Ishmael and all members of his household before Isaac was born. This is still the practice amongst descendants of Ishmael.

Circumcision serves as a physical sign of the covenant between God and Abraham’s descendants.

The Bible discusses one side of the covenant and not the other more so that the authors of the books here had less concern with other descendants perhaps a continuation of the dislike between Sarah and Hagar. You know how step siblings relation often are.

Integrity in worship serves as a safeguard against idolatry by fostering an authentic relationship with God, promoting awareness of potential idols, committing to the truth regardless of apparent unfavourable results, encouraging community accountability, facilitating continuous reflection, and emphasizing God’s sovereignty.

MaxInDHouse:
There is nothing strange in that, it's not all children that grows at the same pace so if you have a child who grows faster than his or her age that doesn't mean all children grows the same way.
Mothers are strong anytime case regarding their children arises infact a woman with stamina can back a 20 years old man talkless of her own child

There is no evidence to suggest that Ishmael the son of Abraham grew up defectively or slower than he should during his early ages; rather, he is depicted positively in biblical texts and cultural contexts.

At the age of 16/17 he would have been very energetic beyond being placed in shrubs. This is done for babies or toddlers who cannot move on their own accord

honesttalk21:
It's quite unfortunate the extent of envy as Isaac is not the first born. Deuteronomy 21:17
He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him. Consider what verses 15 and 16 say before this.

In Genesis 17:20, God acknowledges Ishmael and promises to bless him, making him the father of twelve princes and a great nation. This shows that Ishmael was indeed part of God's plan.

God promises Abraham that his descendants would become as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore (Genesis 15:5, 22:17).

The most significant aspects of the covenant is the promise that through Abraham, "all nations of the earth will be blessed" (Genesis 12:3, 22:18).

When God was making this promise who was the only wife of Abraham?
Hagar wasn't in the picture at all Sarah chose to figure out who is at fault regarding her barrenness only to find out that Abraham is 100% potent.
So my friend the promise was for the couple both integrity keepers!

honesttalk21:
Remember too that in Genesis 16:10-12, God speaks to Hagar, Ishmael's mother, after she flees from Sarah, saying, "I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count." This mirrors the promise God made to Abraham regarding his descendants. Ishmael is specifically mentioned as the one through whom this promise will be fulfilled.

Through the Covenant of Circumcision God reaffirms His covenant with Abram, changes his name to Abraham, and commands circumcision as the sign of the covenant. Abraham circumcised and did same to Ishmael and all members of his household before Isaac was born. This is still the practice amongst descendants of Ishmael.

Circumcision serves as a physical sign of the covenant between God and Abraham’s descendants.

The Bible discusses one side of the covenant and not the other more so that the authors of the books here had less concern with other descendants perhaps a continuation of the dislike between Sarah and Hagar. You know how step siblings relation often are.

Neither Abraham nor Sarah thought of another person coming into the picture until Sarah decided to test her man's capability.

honesttalk21:
Integrity in worship serves as a safeguard against idolatry by fostering an authentic relationship with God, promoting awareness of potential idols, committing to the truth regardless of apparent unfavourable results, encouraging community accountability, facilitating continuous reflection, and emphasizing God’s sovereignty.

Idolatry simply means switching between two deities not necessary the God of any nation so God doesn't condemn integrity keepers it's circumstances that made many born in places not their choice. So the emphasis on idolatry makes no practical sense here rather it's integrity that really matters to the true God.

honesttalk21:
There is no evidence to suggest that Ishmael the son of Abraham grew up defectively or slower than he should during his early ages; rather, he is depicted positively in biblical texts and cultural contexts. At the age of 16/17 he would have been very energetic beyond being placed in shrubs. This is done for babies or toddlers who cannot move on their own accord

And there is no evidence that Hagar a slave girl is not strong enough to lift a 16-17 years old teenager!

MaxInDHouse:
When God was making this promise who was the only wife of Abraham?

Indeed the ways of God are not the ways of man. God's wisdom is far above that of man. You feel dislike due to Abraham having child through other than Sarah despite this being acceptable practice?

MaxInDHouse:
Hagar wasn't in the picture at all Sarah chose to figure out who is at fault regarding her barrenness only to find out that Abraham is 100% potent.
So my friend the promise was for the couple both integrity keepers!

Did God make the covenant with Abraham and Sarah or with Abraham? Remember too that God does not speak directly to Sarah in the same personal manner as He does with Hagar. Instead, His communication with Sarah is mediated through Abraham. Or do you have a different opinion or understanding about this?
Hagar's return according to your Bible doesn't reflect her integrity with God?

You limit the scope of Abraham's covenant!

MaxInDHouse:
Idolatry simply means switching between two deities not necessary the God of any nation so God doesn't condemn integrity keepers it's circumstances that made many born in places not their choice. So the emphasis on idolatry makes no practical sense here rather it's integrity that really matters to the true God.

Job experiences profound loss of wealth and health tests his faith severely and could lead him toward polytheism or atheism. Is it uncommon today when people face such trials they turn to places they aren't supposed to in search of solution?

MaxInDHouse:
And there is no evidence that Hagar a slave girl is not strong enough to lift a 16-17 years old teenager!

In ancient Near Eastern societies boys typically transitioned into manhood around the age of 13. By ages 16 to 19, these young men were expected to take on more substantial roles within their families and communities.

Young men in this age group were often at their physical peak. They engaged in agricultural work, herding livestock, and other labor-intensive tasks that required significant strength and endurance.

Tribal conflicts were common so young men at this age often took on protective roles for their families and communities. They learned combat skills necessary for defending against threats from rival tribes or wild animals.

How can such one be the subject of such pampering from his mother?

honesttalk21:
Indeed the ways of God are not the ways of man. God's wisdom is far above that of man. You feel dislike due to Abraham having child through other than Sarah despite this being acceptable practice?

This is not about dislike but reality if Abraham desperately wanted to have a child he would have married another woman instead of waiting for so long. So it's his integrity that God tested as he would not marry another woman out of desperation.

honesttalk21:
Did God make the covenant with Abraham and Sarah or with Abraham? Remember too that God does not speak directly to Sarah in the same personal manner as He does with Hagar. Instead, His communication with Sarah is mediated through Abraham. Or do you have a different opinion or understanding about this?
Hagar's return according to your Bible doesn't reflect her integrity with God?

According to the Bible it was directed at the couple not only Abraham, God changed his name from Abram to Abraham and Sarai to Sarah for the same purpose.

honesttalk21:
You limit the scope of Abraham's covenant!

I believe what the Bible said. No addition no subtraction.

honesttalk21:
Job experiences profound loss of wealth and health tests his faith severely and could lead him toward polytheism or atheism. Is it uncommon today when people face such trials they turn to places they aren't supposed to in search of solution?

It's not about polytheism but desperate for life to the point of doing whatever it takes to solve the problem. That's what Job refused to do not idolatry as you are thinking.

honesttalk21:
In ancient Near Eastern societies boys typically transitioned into manhood around the age of 13. By ages 16 to 19, these young men were expected to take on more substantial roles within their families and communities.
Young men in this age group were often at their physical peak. They engaged in agricultural work, herding livestock, and other labor-intensive tasks that required significant strength and endurance.
Tribal conflicts were common so young men at this age often took on protective roles for their families and communities. They learned combat skills necessary for defending against threats from rival tribes or wild animals.
How can such one be the subject of such pampering from his mother?

No matter the age of a man his mother will not stop pampering him as her baby.
If this is how you reason with your Allah and the Quran i wonder how you can still remain in that religion because i have lots of reservations for your Allah, Muhammad, Qur'an and religion!

MaxInDHouse:
This is not about dislike but reality if Abraham desperately wanted to have a child he would have married another woman instead of waiting for so long. So it's his integrity that God tested as he would not marry another woman out of desperation.


According to the Bible it was directed at the couple not only Abraham, God changed his name from Abram to Abraham and Sarai to Sarah for the same purpose.

I believe what the Bible said. No addition no subtraction.

It's not about polytheism but desperate for life to the point of doing whatever it takes to solve the problem. That's what Job refused to do not idolatry as you are thinking.

No matter the age of a man his mother will not stop pampering him as her baby.
If this is how you reason with your Allah and the Quran i wonder how you can still remain in that religion because i have lots of reservations for your Allah, Muhammad, Qur'an and religion!

In those times, it was indeed common for men to take concubines or have children with other women if their wives were unable to bear children.

Abraham was already 75 years old when he first received the promise of Genesis 12:4. Obviously he was not bothered not having a child before this time. It was indeed Sarah who suggested that Abraham have a child with Hagar yet this became a problem for her when it happened so.

The covenants with Abraham were:

1. Genesis 12:1-3, where God calls Abram to leave his homeland and promises to make him a great nation. This covenant includes:
a. God promises Abraham that he will give him land.
b. God assures Abraham that he will have numerous descendants.
Did he say all these descendants will be in one land?

c. Through Abraham’s lineage, all nations will be blessed.
Not one nation but many nations.

2. In Genesis 17 there is the Covenant of Circumcision.
God changes Abram’s name to Abraham,
Circumcision is established as a physical sign of this covenant.

However before this in Genesis 16 when Sarah's harassment had caused Hagar to flee, the angel had delivered a messaged to her from God.

The angel delivered a message of hope and promise to Hagar, assuring her that God had heard her cries and would provide for her and her child.

In Genesis 16:10-11, the angel tells Hagar, I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count ... You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery.
Are there descendants exclusively of Hagar with no connection to Abraham?

This interaction with the angel not only reassured Hagar of God's care for her but also affirmed her worth and importance in His eyes.

The covenant that God made with Abraham extended to Hagar and her son Ishmael. Despite being a foreigner and a slave, Hagar was chosen by God to play a significant role in fulfilling His promises to Abraham. Through her obedience and faith, she became a key figure in the lineage of the Israelites and the Ishmaelites.

Then God promised a child to Isaac.

Indeed God made separate covenants with Abraham before the individual births of Ishmael and Isaac.

Ishmael, the son of Abraham and Hagar, is noted to have had twelve sons. Isaac had two sons Esau and Jacob, with Jacob being the father of the twelve tribes of Israel. Isn't it interesting that Isaac didn't directly bare the 12 tribes of Israel?

Interesting to note that the descendants of Esau known as the Edomites were a terror to the Israelites.

Job was steadfast and refused to yield to the push of his wife, friends and his dire straits to embrace abandon God and embrace idolatry.

No matter how much your mum will try to pamper you will a reasonable man not do what is expected of him? Perhaps in your reasoning she will spoon feed him and take him to the toilet.

Your reservations are obviously due to an absence of true understanding and acceptance of guidance. You rather stick to inappropriate understanding to defend non acceptance of the truth.

honesttalk21:
In those times, it was indeed common for men to take concubines or have children with other women if their wives were unable to bear children. Abraham was already 75 years old when he first received the promise of Genesis 12:4. Obviously he was not bothered not having a child before this time. It was indeed Sarah who suggested that Abraham have a child with Hagar yet this became a problem for her when it happened so.


The covenants with Abraham were:
1. Genesis 12:1-3, where God calls Abram to leave his homeland and promises to make him a great nation. This covenant includes:
a. God promises Abraham that he will give him land.
b. God assures Abraham that he will have numerous descendants.
Did he say all these descendants will be in one land?
c. Through Abraham’s lineage, all nations will be blessed.
Not one nation but many nations.

God didn't just choose Abraham but this man is an integrity keeper that's why God called him out from among his people and the promise was made regarding the couple: Abram and Sarai.
God called Abram "Abraham" and Sarai "Sarah" they will become father of nations and mother of nations respectively {Genesis 17:5-6, 15-16} Abraham wanted to conclude that the promise has been fulfilled through Ishmael {Genesis 17:18} because by then Ishmael has been born but God told him "NO" Ishmael is just by the way the covenant He (God) had in mind will be established with the child Sarah will bear:

So Abraham said to the true God: “O that Ishʹma·el might live before you!” To this God said: “Your wife Sarah will definitely bear you a son, and you must name him Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant to his offspring after him. But as regards Ishʹma·el, I have heard you. Look! I will bless him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him very, very much. He will produce 12 chieftains, and I will make him become a great nation. However, I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this appointed time next year.” Genesis 17:18-21

So Ishmael and his mother weren't in the picture at all!

honesttalk21:
2. In Genesis 17 there is the Covenant of Circumcision. God changes Abram’s name to Abraham, Circumcision is established as a physical sign of this covenant. However before this in Genesis 16 when Sarah's harassment had caused Hagar to flee, the angel had delivered a messaged to her from God. The angel delivered a message of hope and promise to Hagar, assuring her that God had heard her cries and would provide for her and her child. In Genesis 16:10-11, the angel tells Hagar, I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count ... You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. Are there descendants exclusively of Hagar with no connection to Abraham? This interaction with the angel not only reassured Hagar of God's care for her but also affirmed her worth and importance in His eyes.

Hagar has nothing to do with the covenant God only protected her and her son because Abraham felt bad for the mistreatment Sarah gave the woman and her child remember that when Sarah asked Abraham to sleep with the slave girl Abraham didn't take permission from God but it's when Sarah insisted that the child and mother be sent away that Abraham wanted to object that's when he asked God and God told him to listen to his wife {Genesis 21:10-12} so the emotions Arabs cooked up doesn't change the fact that the covenant remains with Abraham, Sarah and Isaac that's why God didn't mention anything regarding the covenant when it has to do with either Ishmael or the other six sons of Abraham! Genesis 25:1-2

honesttalk21:
The covenant that God made with Abraham extended to Hagar and her son Ishmael. Despite being a foreigner and a slave, Hagar was chosen by God to play a significant role in fulfilling His promises to Abraham. Through her obedience and faith, she became a key figure in the lineage of the Israelites and the Ishmaelites.

This is a LIE!
I know that is where you are driving at because those Arabs manipulated the story to make unsuspecting individuals feel pity for Hagar and her son yet they are ready to fight and kill despite claiming it's God's purpose.
Ọmọ it's a lie!

honesttalk21:
Then God promised a child to Isaac. Indeed God made separate covenants with Abraham before the individual births of Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael, the son of Abraham and Hagar, is noted to have had twelve sons. Isaac had two sons Esau and Jacob, with Jacob being the father of the twelve tribes of Israel. Isn't it interesting that Isaac didn't directly bare the 12 tribes of Israel? Interesting to note that the descendants of Esau known as the Edomites were a terror to the Israelites.

Esau supposed to have the covenant but since he despised it God gave it to Jacob and as for Ishmael there was no mention of his children regarding prophethood which further connotes that the covenant regarding all nations has nothing to do with him.

honesttalk21:
Job was steadfast and refused to yield to the push of his wife, friends and his dire straits to embrace abandon God and embrace idolatry.

The Bible never mentioned idolatry in the story so what Job's wife suggested is not idolatry but desperation to break his integrity which is the quality God saw in him.

honesttalk21:
No matter how much your mum will try to pamper you will a reasonable man not do what is expected of him? Perhaps in your reasoning she will spoon feed him and take him to the toilet. Your reservations are obviously due to an absence of true understanding and acceptance of guidance. You rather stick to inappropriate understanding to defend non acceptance of the truth.

Guy the child lived as a rich man's son until that time so how do you expect such a child to behave now that himself and his mother are sent out from his father's house?
Do you expect him to behave like a mature man?
Of course he still rely on his mother as he can't fend for himself something he wasn't taught to do from birth.
So the mother will care for him until he becomes old enough to take charge and that's not what a teenager can easily do.