₦airaland Forum

Qasim6:
So why was Elohim used for Moses in Exodus 7:1?

Read the passage yourself to understand why. God was saying Moses will be superior to the gods of Egypt. Again, you see that it is comparison with other gods that brought about the usage of plurality to mark a distinction and that's same thing Moses employed throughout his reference to God in relation to gods of other tribes. What makes it more obvious is that it is Eloha that leads to Allah which means Allah is not plural in name. So how come We is being used by him in Quran? If He wanted to use the plural form. the root word should have come from Elohim and not Eloha

RightChannel:
Did you think the way you reason is the Same way others think right? The question was based on pre-islamic Arabic period, your brain should think far that Quran was not in existence at this time before categorizing Quran as book of grammar. You are very shallow in thinking!

So which records of that time about their grammar will you see translated in English online today?
It will be in Arabic!

So go and sit down!

RightChannel:
Who was the king in Pre-Islamic arabic period that used Royal We?

Which king existed then?

RightChannel:
Who ask for grammatical book of Arab?

What is the name of the king that used Royal We in pre-islamic Arabia period? Is the question I needed answer from you!

Why ask same question many time?

Which king exist in Pre-Islamic Arab?
And Which Book of grammar did they write then?

Kukutente23:
Read the passage yourself to understand why. God was saying Moses will be superior to the gods of Egypt. Again, you see that it is comparison with other gods that brought about the usage of plurality to mark a distinction and that's same thing Moses employed throughout his reference to God in relation to gods of other tribes. What makes it more obvious is that it is Eloha that leads to Allah which means Allah is not plural in name. So how come We is being used by him in Quran? If He wanted to use the plural form. the root word should have come from Elohim and not Eloha

So Elohim a plural word was used for a singular being (Moses). What kind of plural are we going to call that?

Plural of superiority?

And can that type of rhetoric be used in every languages?

Kukutente23:
Taqqiyya So quran is now brigher grammar with Allah as the teacher How can quran become the book of grammar for Arabs when Arabic language existed before quran and was heavily influenced by other semitic languages

So Arab influenced English culture and language as well. What period was that and who were the influencers?

Islamist and taqiyya. They breath and live lies

Can't you see Saudi Arabia today?

Is the Bible relevant in Israel as the Qur'an in Saudi Arabia?

Qasim6:
So Elohim a plural word was used for a singular being (Moses). What kind of plural are we going to call that?

Plural of superiority?

And can that type of rhetoric be used in every languages?

If you choose to call it plural of superiority no problem. It can't be used in any other language because it simply does not exist as such. But in Yoruba for example. We have Oluwa (Lord) and then Olorun(Creator of Heaven or God) and then Oluwa Olorun(Lord God) which is used as an embellishment in the Bible for Elohim you complained about as a direct translation from the KJV.

So you see that it is not necessarily about the plurality but the superiority or distinction from other gods(oloruns)

AntiChristian:
Can't you see Saudi Arabia today?

Is the Bible relevant in Israel as the Qur'an in Saudi Arabia?

The Torah is as relevant in Israel as the Quran is in Saudi. As a matter of fact, the Bible is relevant to more people on the face of the earth than the Quran. But that does not mean the Quran or the Bible is brighter grammar as you sought to imply. That is taqiyya.

Your friend qassim6 is already pointing to the reason why Muhammad used plural to refer to Allah. It is because the Israelite God whom he copied was usually referred to in plural form by the Jews. The reason why, he does not know. He does not even realise that Allah which is his tribal god is gotten from the singular form of Elohim. Muhammad was ignorant on a lot of things. It is one of such that led him to mistake Mary mother of Jesus with Miriam sister of Moses!!

Kukutente23:
The Torah is as relevant in Israel as the Quran is in Saudi. As a matter of fact, the Bible is relevant to more people on the face of the earth than the Quran. But that does not mean the Quran or the Bible is brighter grammar as you sought to imply. That is taqiyya.

Where did i say the Qu'ran is brighter grammar? Why can't you speak Verbatim what i say instead of stylishly telling lies?

No Nation uses the Bible to rule its nation like the Qur'an! You still lied!

Your friend qassim6 is already pointing to the reason why Muhammad used plural to refer to Allah. It is because the Israelite God whom he copied was usually referred to in plural form by the Jews. The reason why, he does not know. He does not even realise that Allah which is his tribal god is gotten from the singular form of Elohim. Muhammad was ignorant on a lot of things. It is one of such that led him to mistake Mary mother of Jesus with Miriam sister of Moses!!

Did Muhammad say he got it from Elohim? Why not conclude your discussion with him instead of gossiping that to me? Abeg shift jawe!

Kukutente23:
If you choose to call it plural of superiority no problem. It can't be used in any other language because it simply does not exist as such. But in Yoruba for example. We have Oluwa (Lord) and then Olorun(Creator of Heaven or God) and then Oluwa Olorun(Lord God) which is used as an embellishment in the Bible for Elohim you complained about as a direct translation from the KJV.

So you see that it is not necessarily about the plurality but the superiority or distinction from other gods(oloruns)

Languages differ and languages use different rhetoric that some other might find absurd. That is what we need to learn and not all the nonsense Antiislam is doing looking for partners that does not exist and will never exist for Allah.

The WE in the Qur'an is a rhetoric device that connotes divine majesty and not plurality of God.

AntiChristian:
The Qur'an became the Book of grammar for the Arabs.

The Grammatical usage became known as royal We in English later!

You are the one wallowing in hell from earth!

Now now you want to practice taqiyya?

AntiChristian:
Where did i say the Qu'ran is brighter grammar? Why can't you speak Verbatim what i say instead of stylishly telling lies?

No Nation uses the Bible to rule its nation like the Qur'an! You still lied!

So which nation uses Quran to rule? This boy and taqqiyya

Did Muhammad say he got it from Elohim? Why not conclude your discussion with him instead of gossiping that to me? Abeg shift jawe!

I'm just pointing out to you that he seems to be smarter than you since he is on the right track to a more possible explanation instead of the gibberish you swallow from your fellow dunderheads on the internet!!

Kukutente23:
The Torah is as relevant in Israel as the Quran is in Saudi. As a matter of fact, the Bible is relevant to more people on the face of the earth than the Quran. But that does not mean the Quran or the Bible is brighter grammar as you sought to imply. That is taqiyya.

Your friend qassim6 is already pointing to the reason why Muhammad used plural to refer to Allah. It is because the Israelite God whom he copied was usually referred to in plural form by the Jews. The reason why, he does not know. He does not even realise that Allah which is his tribal god is gotten from the singular form of Elohim. Muhammad was ignorant on a lot of things. It is one of such that led him to mistake Mary mother of Jesus with Miriam sister of Moses!!

Dem use lie swear for Una? And you are the one shouting taqiyya every where on this thread.

And I don't understand why you guys think the prophet mistook Mary mother of Jesus with Miriam

Qasim6:
Languages differ and languages use different rhetoric that some other might find absurd. That is what we need to learn and not all the nonsense Antiislam is doing looking for partners that does not exist and will never exist for Allah.

The WE in the Qur'an is a rhetoric device that connotes divine majesty and not plurality of God.

But using plural to refer to a single entity is strange in Arabic ain't it. That is why there is no mainstream explanation with some scholars offering different explanations up and down

The We in quran was borrowed by Muhammad. That is pretty much clear and antiislam has not yet said it connotes the plurality of God. He is just busy exposing the ignorance of you folks who claim to follow Islam. I like that you have tactically shifted from royal we to divine majesty

Qasim6:
Dem use lie swear for Una? And you are the one shouting taqiyya every where on this thread.

And I don't understand why you guys think the prophet mistook Mary mother of Jesus with Miriam

Where did I lie?

It is clearly in your quran. He called Mary mother of Jesus sister of Aaron and claimed she was unmarried!!

Kukutente23:
But using plural to refer to a single entity is strange in Arabic ain't it. That is why there is no mainstream explanation with some scholars offering different explanations up and down

The We in quran was borrowed by Muhammad. That is pretty much clear and antiislam has not yet said it connotes the plurality of God. He is just busy exposing the ignorance of you folks who claim to follow Islam. I like that you have tactically shifted from royal we to divine majesty

Taqiyya master, can you point out where I used royal we on this thread?

And which scholars give different explanation for the WE in the Qur'an?

Kukutente23:
Where did I lie?

This is where you lied

"Your friend qassim6 is already pointing to the reason why Muhammad used plural to refer to Allah. It is because the Israelite God whom he copied was usually referred to in plural form by the Jews."

The approach I used was to show how languages can differ

Kukutente23:
It is clearly in your quran. He called Mary mother of Jesus sister of Aaron and claimed she was unmarried!!

Can you quote the verse that claim Mary was unmarried?

Qasim6:
Why are you slow like this?
But u be Omo Yoruba now

Yoruba language have something similar, we use plural of respect for elders and people that are older than us. Was that introduced in the 12th century?

Just because it was introduced into English or whatever language in the 12th century does that mean that was the first time it's used in human history?

Ah!! Taqiyya!! is this not you defending the royal We explanation on the first page? What have we been debating since morning? Chai!! Islamists and taqiyya

Qasim6:
Taqiyya master, can you point out where I used royal we on this thread?

And which scholars give different explanation for the WE in the Qur'an?

Some scholars have argued that the We was used by Allah to refer to himself and Jibreel and is used interchangeably because Jibreel is his chief messenger. Have you not come across such?

Qasim6:
This is where you lied

"Your friend qassim6 is already pointing to the reason why Muhammad used plural to refer to Allah. It is because the Israelite God whom he copied was usually referred to in plural form by the Jews."

The approach I used was to show how languages can differ

Stop practising taqiyya. You have been claiming that languages can have similarities which is why you introduced Yoruba using We for elders. Is it time for taqiyya because you have been normal before now o. How did I lie? You later raised that Elohim used for God in the Bible is plural and I agree with you. Is that not a pointer to the possibility that it might have been the reason for the use of We in quran?

Can you quote the verse that claim Mary was unmarried?

I don't get. Are you saying Mary mother of Jesus was married in Islam? To who? Read Quran 19:27-29

Then she returned to her people, carrying him. They said ˹in shock˺, [b]“O Mary! You have certainly done a horrible thing! O sister of Aaron!1 Your father was not an indecent man, nor was your mother unchaste.”So she pointed to the baby. They exclaimed, “How can we talk to someone who is an infant in the cradle?”[/b]

I'm sure you will agree it is only horrible when a woman who gave birth is unmarried

Kukutente23:
Ah!! Taqiyya!! is this not you defending the royal We explanation on the first page? What have we been debating since morning? Chai!! Islamists and taqiyya

Lol, guy just rest on this WE, the Yoruba example I brought. Is it royal plural? I was only pointing out how languages can differ and if you are not getting my point, I can't help you further.

Kukutente23:
Some scholars have argued that the We was used by Allah to refer to himself and Jibreel and is used interchangeably because Jibreel is his chief messenger. Have you not come across such?

well, I haven't come across that before, can u help with any scholar of that opinion. Or are you just making stuff up now?

Kukutente23:
I don't get. Are you saying Mary mother of Jesus was married in Islam? To who? Read Quran 19:27-29

I'm sure you will agree it is only horrible when a woman who gave birth is unmarried

So was mary married when she became pregnant in the biblical narrative? Because I'm not really getting your point.

Qasim6:
Lol, guy just rest on this WE, the Yoruba example I brought. Is it royal plural? I was only pointing out how languages can differ and if you are not getting my point, I can't help you further.

I don't get how use plural is different in Yoruba and Arabic when it refers to respect. You seem to be mixing things up but if you insist on it, I'll take it as how you understand it

well, I haven't come across that before, can u help with any scholar of that opinion. Or are you just making stuff up now?

Check Sheikh Hamza Karamali and Ibn Taymiyyah

Qasim6:
So was mary married when she became pregnant in the biblical narrative? Because I'm not really getting your point.

Was the quranic passage referring to when she became pregnant or when she gave birth? The quranic passage is telling us that she gave birth as an unmarried woman. I'm surprised you're mixing your quran up like this!!

Note that verse 22 of that chapter says she left town to a remote place after she became pregnant obviously to hide the pregnancy from her people

Kukutente23:
Check Sheikh Hamza Karamali and Ibn Taymiyyah

I don't know where you get the idea that they believed otherwise concerning the WE in the Qur'an

Kukutente23:
Was the quranic passage referring to when she became pregnant or when she gave birth? The quranic passage is telling us that she gave birth as an unmarried woman. I'm surprised you're mixing your quran up like this!!

Note that verse 22 of that chapter says she left town to a remote place after she became pregnant obviously to hide the pregnancy from her people

So did the Bible say anything about her getting married?

I know she was just betrothed when she became pregnant according to the Bible.

Qasim6:
So did the Bible say anything about her getting married?

I know she was just betrothed when she became pregnant according to the Bible.

So you don't know she was married to Joseph the carpenter in the bible?

Do you know how ridiculous it sounds that a woman openly committed adultery according to the Quran in the Jewish community and she was not stoned to death? How's that possible?

DeepSight:
In that very verse, he added "Just as ye and I are one."
So are you now Jesus?

And also therefore God?

It's obvious he meant of one mind, or united in thought.

It is not the eyes that are blind but the heart.

Qasim6:
I don't know where you get the idea that they believed otherwise concerning the WE in the Qur'an

Here it is:

The view of the salaf (early generations) of this ummah and of its imams and later generations is that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) heard the Qur’aan from Jibreel, and Jibreel heard it from Allaah. The use of plural forms in such phrases is the style of Arabic speech used to refer to one who is of high standing and has helpers who obey him. So if his helpers do something by his command, he says, “we did it”. This is like when a king says, “We conquered this land, we defeated this army” and so on. Because he did that through the actions of his helpers. Allaah is the Lord of the angels and they speak not until He has spoken, and they act in accordance with His commands; they do not disobey the commands of Allaah, rather they do what He commands. Moreover He is their Creator and the creator of their deeds and their power. But He has no need of them; He is not like a king whose helpers do things by their own strength. So what He says when He does something through His angels is, “We did it”, this is more appropriate and He is more entitled to say it than some king.

This is part of his introduction of his fatwa 12713 on polytheism

Kukutente23:
So you don't know she was married to Joseph the carpenter in the bible?

Do you know how ridiculous it sounds that a woman openly committed adultery according to the Quran in the Jewish community and she was not stoned to death? How's that possible?

Why do you think he spoke in the cradle according to Qur'an narrative?

And that is exactly the same reason Mary was called sister of Aaron. They were trying to shame her because she was from the lineage of Aaron.

Qasim6:
I don't know where you get the idea that they believed otherwise concerning the WE in the Qur'an

One of the earliest and most authoritative Quranic lexicologists, al-Raghib al-Asfahani (d. 425 A.H.), explained that nahnu (Arabic for we) is normally a pronominal reference that a speaker makes to himself when speaking of himself along with others. When Allah Most High uses nahnu to refer to Himself [sic] the Quran, He may either be using it solely for Himself, or, if the He speaks of an action that He creates at the hands of His angels, for example, He may be referring to the [sic] Himself along with His angels.

This is from Karamali

Qasim6:
Why do you think he spoke in the cradle according Qur'an narrative?

And that is exactly the same reason Mary was called sister of Aron. They were trying to shame her because she was from the lineage of Aron.

You believe Pharisees and the sanhedrin will desist from meting out punishment to a woman with incontrovertible evidence of adultery simply because a baby spoke? If that is so, why did the Jews go ahead to kill Jesus and his disciples even with the many miracles they performed. The prevailing opinion in Jewish society is that the soul that sins shall die. So the righteousness of the mother can't save the child and vice versa.

Also, there's no evidence that points to Mary being from Aaron's lineage. The closest shed had to Levites was her cousin Elizabeth but note that not all levies are descended from Aaron. Most importantly, which culture refers to one's ancestor as one's brother or sister? At least the Jewish custom does not do that. It would have been plausible if it was daughter of Aaron and not sister of Aaron. Aaron's sister Miriam was known to be unmarried just like Mary was portrayed in the Qur'an. Her father's namegiven in the Qur'an was same with Miriam and Aaron's father's name given in the bible. All these cannot be mere coincidence. It's a mix-up

Kukutente23:
Here it is:


This is part of his introduction of his fatwa 12713 on polytheism

Can you provide the text of this Fatwa 12713 you refer to please?

Kukutente23:
You believe Pharisees and the sanhedrin will desist from meting out punishment to a woman with incontrovertible evidence of adultery simply because a baby spoke? If that is so, why did the Jews go ahead to kill Jesus and his disciples even with the many miracles they performed. The prevailing opinion in Jewish society is that the soul that sins shall die. So the righteousness of the mother can't save the child and vice versa.

Also, there's no evidence that points to Mary being from Aaron's lineage. The closest shed had to Levites was her cousin Elizabeth but note that not all levies are descended from Aaron. Most importantly, which culture refers to one's ancestor as one's brother or sister? At least the Jewish custom does not do that. It would have been plausible if it was daughter of Aaron and not sister of Aaron. Aaron's sister Miriam was known to be unmarried just like Mary was portrayed in the Qur'an. Her father's namegiven in the Qur'an was same with Miriam and Aaron's father's name given in the bible. All these cannot be mere coincidence. It's a mix-up

Don't you get the crime or sin of the Pharisees and Sanhendrin of rejecting belief despite seeing the virgin get pregnant and bare child without relations with a man and the baby speaking to them as a baby from the cradle about his nature?

Mary regarded as a sister of Aaron was in a honorary position not literal as she is/was devoted to worshipping God as Aaron's lineage were.

Mary was recognized for dedicating a significant portion of her time to solitude and devotion to worship, even prior to her pregnancy. Her life was characterized by a deep commitment to Allah, and she resided in the sanctuary under the care of Zakariya, where she engaged in continuous worship and service to her Lord. This seclusion represented a way of life centered on spiritual focus and purity, as she had been devoted to the service of Allah from a young age.

Imran, referred to in the Quran as the father of Maryam, who is the mother of Jesus, is not the same Imran (Amram) found in the Torah, who is the father of Prophet Moses (Musa) along with his siblings, Aaron (Harun) and Miriam. In essence, while they have the same name, they are distinct individuals from different historical contexts.