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There have been countless words written about God’s sovereignty. And probably just as much has been written about human free will. Most would seem to agree that God is sovereign, at least in some measure. And most seem to agree that humans have, or at least seem to have, some form of free will. But there is a lot of debate over the extent of sovereignty and free will as well as the compatibility of these two things.

What Is Sovereignty?

The dictionary defines sovereignty as “supreme power or authority.” A king who rules a nation would be considered that nation’s sovereign – one who is not answerable to any other person. While few countries today are ruled by sovereigns, it was common in ancient times.

A sovereign is ultimately responsible for the establishing and enforcing the laws that regulate life within their specific nation. Laws may be implemented at lower levels of the government, but the law mandated by the sovereign is supreme and overrides any others. Enforcement of the laws and execution of punishment will also likely be delegated in most cases. But the authority for that enforcement lies with the sovereign.

Repeatedly, the Scripture identifies God as sovereign. Most notably you find it in Ezekiel where he is identified as “Sovereign Lord” 210 times. While the Scripture sometimes pictures a heavenly council, it is God alone who rules over his creation.

In the books of Exodus through Deuteronomy, we find the law code given by God to Israel through Moses. But God’s moral law is also written on the hearts of all people (Rom. 2:14-15). Deuteronomy, along with all the prophets, makes it clear that God holds us responsible for obeying his law. Likewise, there are consequences for failing to obey his revelation to us. While God has delegated some responsibility to human government (Rom. 13:1-7), he is still ultimately sovereign.

Does Sovereignty Demand Absolute Control?

A question that divides those who otherwise adhere to the sovereignty of God concerns the amount of control that requires. Is it possible for God to be sovereign if people are able to act in ways that are contrary to his will?

On the one hand are those who would deny that possibility. They would say that God’s sovereignty is somehow diminished if he is not in total control of everything that happens. Everything must happen in the way that he has planned.

On the other hand are those who would understand that God, in his sovereignty, has granted a certain amount of autonomy to humanity. This “free will” allows humanity to act in ways that are contrary to how God might wish for them to act. It is not that God is powerless to stop them. Rather he has granted us permission to act as we do. Yet, even though we might act contrary to God’s will, his purpose in creation will be accomplished. There is nothing we can do that will thwart his purpose.

Which view is correct? Throughout the Bible we find people who acted contrary to the instruction God had given to them. The Bible even goes so far as to claim that there is no one, apart from Jesus, who is good, who does what God wants (Rom. 3:10-20). The Bible describes a world that is in rebellion against their creator. That seems at odds with a God who is in total control of all that happens. Unless those in rebellion against him do so because it is God’s will for them.

Three Views of Human Free Will
Free will implies the ability to make choices within some constraints. For instance, I can choose, among a limited set of options, what I will eat for dinner. And I can choose whether I am going to obey the speed limit. But I cannot choose to act contrary to the physical laws of nature. I do not have a choice in whether or not gravity will pull me to the ground when I jump out of a window. Nor can I choose to sprout wings and fly.

One group of people will deny that we actually have free will. That free will is only an illusion. This position is determinism, that every instant of my story is controlled by the laws that run the universe, my genetics, and my environment. Divine determinism would identify God as the one who determines my every choice and action.

A second view holds that free will exists, after a fashion. This view holds that God works in the circumstances of my life to ensure that I freely make the choices that God wants me to. This view is often labeled as compatibilism because it is compatible with a strict view of sovereignty. Yet it really seems to be little different from divine determinism since in the end people are always making the choices that God wants from them.

The third view is generally called libertarian free will. This position is sometimes defined as the ability to have chosen other than what you ultimately did. This view is often attacked as being incompatible with God’s sovereignty because it allows a person to act in ways that are contrary to God’s will.

As pointed out above though, the Scripture makes it clear that humans are sinful, acting in ways that are contrary to God’s revealed will. It is hard to read the Old Testament without seeing this repeatedly. It does at least appear from the Scripture that humans have libertarian free will.

There are two ways that God’s sovereignty and human free will can be reconciled. The first argues that God is in complete control. That nothing happens apart from his direction. In this view free will is either an illusion or what is identified as compatibilist free will – a free will where we freely make the choices that God has arranged for us to make.

The second way these are reconciled is to see God’s sovereignty including a permissive element. In God’s sovereignty, he allows us to make free choices (at least within certain limits.) This view of sovereignty is compatible with libertarian free will.

So, which of these two is correct? It seems to me that a primary story line of the Bible is humanity’s rebellion against God, and his working to bring redemption to us. Nowhere is God pictured as less than sovereign.

But throughout, humanity is pictured as acting contrary to God’s revealed will. Repeatedly we are called to act in a certain way. Yet by and large we choose to follow our own way. I find it hard to reconcile the Bible’s picture of humanity with any form of divine determinism. To do so would seem to make God ultimately responsible for our disobedience to his revealed will. It would require a secret will of God that is at odds with his revealed will.

Reconciling Sovereignty and Free Will

It is not possible for us to fully understand the sovereignty of the infinite God. He is too high above us for anything like complete understanding. Yet we are made in his image, bearing his likeness. So, when we try to understand the love, goodness, righteousness, mercy, and sovereignty of God, our human understanding of those concepts should be a reliable, albeit limited, guide.

So, while human sovereignty is more limited than God’s sovereignty, I believe that we can use the one to understand the other. In other words, what we know of human sovereignty is the best guide we have toward understanding God’s sovereignty.

Recall that a human sovereign is responsible for making and enforcing the rules that govern his kingdom. That is likewise true of God. In God’s creation, he makes the rules. And he enforces and judges any violation of those laws.

Under a human sovereign, the subjects are free to follow or disobey the rules mandated by the sovereign. But to disobey the laws comes at a cost. With a human sovereign it is possible that you might be able to break a law without getting caught and paying the penalty. But that would not be true with a sovereign who is omniscient and righteous. Every violation would be known and punished.

That the subjects are free to violate the king’s laws does not diminish his sovereignty. In a like manner, that we as humans are free to violate God’s laws does not diminish his sovereignty. With a finite human sovereign, my disobedience might derail some plan of the sovereign. But that would not be true of an omniscient, omnipotent sovereign. He would know my disobedience before it occurred and have planned around it to be able to fulfill his purpose in spite of me.

And that seems to be the model described in the Scriptures. God is sovereign and is the source of our moral code. And we, as his subjects, follow or disobey. For obedience there is reward. For disobedience there is punishment. But his willingness to allow us to disobey does not diminish his sovereignty.

While there are some individual passages that would seem to support a deterministic approach to free will, the Scripture as a whole teaches that, while God is sovereign, humans do have a free will that allows us to choose to act in ways that are contrary to God’s will for us.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/how-do-we-reconcile-gods-sovereignty-and-human-free-will.html

OAM4J
NLFPMOD
MYND44
SEUN

According to the Bible, is God aware of the choices man would make?

For example, did God know Adam and Eve would eat the Apple?

If He did know then why create them in the garden with the Apple tree?

Why did God created the serpent?

Was God aware of the future temptation actions of the serpent?

In the story of Job, Job was righteous yet he was tried by Satan under God's permission.
Under the trial Job's children died and he lost his wealth. The wealth was replaced and he got other children after the trial.

How do we classify Job's loss according to the discussion?

When the Bible says God knows the beginning and the end it simply means whatever He says nothing can stop it so He can tell you what will happen in the future based on His ability to maneuver or influence events but as regards freewill He doesn't tamper with that because it's against His personality He doesn't force anyone to do His will if you've not presented yourself for that purpose.

God is absolute and sovereign and rule over the universes and all realms of eternity , he knows the details of every atom of the mind and particles

He created man with intentional freewill , meaning that he grants man a choice of autonomic will power

Which means he allows you to decide if to check your Facebook page today or not

If God will take minute interest to decide for you whether you're are going to reply a mail or not, it will actually kill his intention to create a freewill agent and Intelligent entity

The act of creating man as an autonomous entity wouldn't make sense if he have to be tweaking us like puppets

However, he knows the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning

He only instruct us to make choices according to His divine instructions and Commandments so that our descrete actions will fall in proper line of his plan for us

, to keep these instructions is up to the person because every action has its commensurate reaction

He gave us a democrasy of intentions

AntiChristian:
According to the Bible, is God aware of the choices man would make?

NO!

AntiChristian:
For example, did God know Adam and Eve would eat the Apple?

NO!

AntiChristian:
If He did know then why create them in the garden with the Apple tree?

It's not apple but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

AntiChristian:
Why did God created the serpent?

The same reason He created all other animals.

AntiChristian:
Was God aware of the future temptation actions of the serpent?

NO!

AntiChristian:
In the story of Job, Job was righteous yet he was tried by Satan under God's permission.
Under the trial Job's children died and he lost his wealth. The wealth was replaced and he got other children after the trial.

How do we classify Job's loss according to the discussion?

After Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden life has no meaning again because man wasn't created to die so no life is worth preserving until after resurrection that's why God warned Satan not to kill Job because he is the bone of contention whether he will keep his integrity or not.

All according to the Bible!

MaxInDHouse:
NO!

This makes God not All-knowing! I thought God is supposed to be all-knowing aka Omniscient? John 3:20, Proverbs 15:3, Isaiah 46:10.

NO!

Same as above!

It's not apple but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Na tree them cut chop?

After Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden life has no meaning again because man wasn't created to die so no life is worth preserving until after resurrection that's why God warned Satan not to kill Job because he is the bone of contention whether he will keep his integrity or not.

All according to the Bible!

I still think your initial premise above is erroneous! If there's anything God does not know then he's not God!

AntiChristian:
According to the Bible, is God aware of the choices man would make?

Knowing a thing is not an inhibition to another person's exercise of their will.

Eg if you had a chair and children, then you know that they would fall down from it. But it is still upto them and their will to sit carefully on it, which as proven they do.

AntiChristian:
This makes God not All-knowing! I thought God is supposed to be all-knowing aka Omniscient? John 3:20, Proverbs 15:3, Isaiah 46:10.

Same as above!


Na tree them cut chop?



I still think your initial premise above is erroneous! If there's anything God does not know then he's not God!

According to your own opinion your God must know everything but i said "according to the Bible" since that's what you asked.

AntiChristian:
According to the Bible, is God aware of the choices man would make?

So it's what the God of the Bible said that i believe:

“The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy. I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.” Genesis 18:20-21

“Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.” Genesis 22:12

Note the highlighted in red!

criuze:
God is absolute and sovereign and rule over the universes and all realms of eternity , he knows the details of every atom of the mind and particles

He created man with intentional freewill , meaning that he grants man a choice of autonomic will power

Which means he allows you to decide if to check your Facebook page today or not

If God will take minute interest to decide for you whether you're are going to reply a mail or not, it will actually kill his intention to create a freewill agent and Intelligent entity

The act of creating man as an autonomous entity wouldn't make sense if he have to be tweaking us like puppets

However, he knows the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning

He only instruct us to make choices according to His divine instructions and Commandments so that our descrete actions will fall in proper line of his plan for us

, to keep these instructions is up to the person because every action has its commensurate reaction

He gave us a democrasy of intentions

Tweaking means you have freewill, which is why you said "tweaking" and not pupeteering which clearly lacks free will.

People tweak each other. Posts here are raised to tweak other persons eg feminism posts, red pills, pro God and anti God post. And this is even the distant tweaking not to talk of the direct tweakings we do to a person eg wifes to husbands, mother to children, work place conduct etc

All these are exercises of tweakings yet the person tweaked has not lost his power to exercise freewill.

MaxInDHouse:
According to your own opinion your God must know everything but i said "according to the Bible" since that's what you asked.



So it's what the God of the Bible said that i believe:

“The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy. I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.” Genesis 18:20-21

“Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.” Genesis 22:12

Note the highlighted in red!

You should start your discussions from the verses I quoted. If some verses claim otherwise you should explain the contradictions or at least reconcile them. Don't just state your own opinions!

AntiChristian:
You should start your discussions from the verses I quoted. If some verses claim otherwise you should explain the contradictions or at least reconcile them. Don't just state your own opinions!

You never quoted any Bible verse rather you stated your opinion based on your perception.

For instance there is no verse that says Adam ate apple but that's what you typed!

AntiChristian:
This makes God not All-knowing! I thought God is supposed to be all-knowing aka Omniscient? John 3:20, Proverbs 15:3, Isaiah 46:10.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. John 3:20

Jesus and his disciples will preach and anyone who hates the light will not join the group.


The eyes of the Lord are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good. ‭Proverbs 15:3
There are angels serving as reporters for God {Revelations 4:8} they are the ones reporting to him what is happening that's why He went to inspect Sodom and Gomorah by Himsef to know if the reports from these creatures are as they said! Genesis 18:20-21


I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’ ‭Isaiah 46:10

Here God is talking about His own program that He knows how it will end from the beginning because nothing can stop it that's the import of the last sentence "My purpose will stand and i will do all that i please" not that He is seeing everything that is happening or has foreknowledge of what each person will turn out to be whatever each person decides is left for them it's either you fit in to His purpose and you're counted as part of those that will survive or you prove unworthy and your name is not found in His book! Malachi 3:16; Revelations 20:15

AntiChristian:
This makes God not All-knowing! I thought God is supposed to be all-knowing aka Omniscient? John 3:20, Proverbs 15:3, Isaiah 46:10.

See above! I did quoted three!

MaxInDHouse:
You never quoted any Bible verse rather you stated your opinion based on your perception.

For instance there is no verse that says Adam ate apple but that's what you typed!

Kingosytex:
There have been countless words written about God’s sovereignty. And probably just as much has been written about human free will. Most would seem to agree that God is sovereign, at least in some measure. And most seem to agree that humans have, or at least seem to have, some form of free will. But there is a lot of debate over the extent of sovereignty and free will as well as the compatibility of these two things.

What Is Sovereignty?

The dictionary defines sovereignty as “supreme power or authority.” A king who rules a nation would be considered that nation’s sovereign – one who is not answerable to any other person. While few countries today are ruled by sovereigns, it was common in ancient times.

A sovereign is ultimately responsible for the establishing and enforcing the laws that regulate life within their specific nation. Laws may be implemented at lower levels of the government, but the law mandated by the sovereign is supreme and overrides any others. Enforcement of the laws and execution of punishment will also likely be delegated in most cases. But the authority for that enforcement lies with the sovereign.

Repeatedly, the Scripture identifies God as sovereign. Most notably you find it in Ezekiel where he is identified as “Sovereign Lord” 210 times. While the Scripture sometimes pictures a heavenly council, it is God alone who rules over his creation.

In the books of Exodus through Deuteronomy, we find the law code given by God to Israel through Moses. But God’s moral law is also written on the hearts of all people (Rom. 2:14-15). Deuteronomy, along with all the prophets, makes it clear that God holds us responsible for obeying his law. Likewise, there are consequences for failing to obey his revelation to us. While God has delegated some responsibility to human government (Rom. 13:1-7), he is still ultimately sovereign.

Does Sovereignty Demand Absolute Control?

A question that divides those who otherwise adhere to the sovereignty of God concerns the amount of control that requires. Is it possible for God to be sovereign if people are able to act in ways that are contrary to his will?

On the one hand are those who would deny that possibility. They would say that God’s sovereignty is somehow diminished if he is not in total control of everything that happens. Everything must happen in the way that he has planned.

On the other hand are those who would understand that God, in his sovereignty, has granted a certain amount of autonomy to humanity. This “free will” allows humanity to act in ways that are contrary to how God might wish for them to act. It is not that God is powerless to stop them. Rather he has granted us permission to act as we do. Yet, even though we might act contrary to God’s will, his purpose in creation will be accomplished. There is nothing we can do that will thwart his purpose.

Which view is correct? Throughout the Bible we find people who acted contrary to the instruction God had given to them. The Bible even goes so far as to claim that there is no one, apart from Jesus, who is good, who does what God wants (Rom. 3:10-20). The Bible describes a world that is in rebellion against their creator. That seems at odds with a God who is in total control of all that happens. Unless those in rebellion against him do so because it is God’s will for them.

Three Views of Human Free Will
Free will implies the ability to make choices within some constraints. For instance, I can choose, among a limited set of options, what I will eat for dinner. And I can choose whether I am going to obey the speed limit. But I cannot choose to act contrary to the physical laws of nature. I do not have a choice in whether or not gravity will pull me to the ground when I jump out of a window. Nor can I choose to sprout wings and fly.

One group of people will deny that we actually have free will. That free will is only an illusion. This position is determinism, that every instant of my story is controlled by the laws that run the universe, my genetics, and my environment. Divine determinism would identify God as the one who determines my every choice and action.

A second view holds that free will exists, after a fashion. This view holds that God works in the circumstances of my life to ensure that I freely make the choices that God wants me to. This view is often labeled as compatibilism because it is compatible with a strict view of sovereignty. Yet it really seems to be little different from divine determinism since in the end people are always making the choices that God wants from them.

Romans 3:10-20 you quoted doesn't state that Jesus is good, infact Jesus said that only the Father is good.

Now to your topic about will and free will, the answer is, can a man go against his own nature?

And if his nature is already predetermined, doesn't that mean even his choices have been set before him. The one who makes a thing decides for it, at no where in scripture did God say I give man free will, it is either God's will or we go against it, it's either life or death.

True freedom can only be found in God's will and God's sovereign is absolute to those who submit to him. God who sees the hearts of men knows what will become of them, why, it is because He is the one who determines the future and the outcome.


Look the choice may be given to us, but the outcome is of God, that's what is in proverbs. There is no freedom from God.

"The Bible describes a world that is in rebellion against their creator. That seems at odds with a God who is in total control of all that happens. Unless those in rebellion against him do so because it is God’s will for them." You wrote this and if it's a question my answer is yes, do you think God did not know that Judas would betray Jesus, he revealed it to Jesus from the time the 12 were selected.

You read repeatedly it is not by ourselves it is because we were chosen.

Even before Esau and Jacob came into the world their fates were decided, if that isn't sovereignty what else is.

"There is nothing we can do that will thwart his purpose." I agree with this


Does a character in a book decide the outcome, infact the words I am writing and will write that come from within me have already been predestined. God is all-knowing for a reason, if the choice and reaction you will have to reading this, He knows even before you realise.

Who tells a man that has decided in his heart to stand with Jesus that he will betray him at so so and so moment. It's like God and see it all and just rewinded it and we are living in it.

The fact someone even as a choice to make is because God decided to let such a person live, we are talking about a being who knows the number of hairs on a person's head. When even what is considered insignificant is known how much more that which is significant.

When Jesus taught us to pray he pointed out that God already knows

Kingosytex:
Reconciling Sovereignty and Free Will

It is not possible for us to fully understand the sovereignty of the infinite God. He is too high above us for anything like complete understanding. Yet we are made in his image, bearing his likeness. So, when we try to understand the love, goodness, righteousness, mercy, and sovereignty of God, our human understanding of those concepts should be a reliable, albeit limited, guide.

So, while human sovereignty is more limited than God’s sovereignty, I believe that we can use the one to understand the other. In other words, what we know of human sovereignty is the best guide we have toward understanding God’s sovereignty.

Recall that a human sovereign is responsible for making and enforcing the rules that govern his kingdom. That is likewise true of God. In God’s creation, he makes the rules. And he enforces and judges any violation of those laws.

Under a human sovereign, the subjects are free to follow or disobey the rules mandated by the sovereign. But to disobey the laws comes at a cost. With a human sovereign it is possible that you might be able to break a law without getting caught and paying the penalty. But that would not be true with a sovereign who is omniscient and righteous. Every violation would be known and punished.

That the subjects are free to violate the king’s laws does not diminish his sovereignty. In a like manner, that we as humans are free to violate God’s laws does not diminish his sovereignty. With a finite human sovereign, my disobedience might derail some plan of the sovereign. But that would not be true of an omniscient, omnipotent sovereign. He would know my disobedience before it occurred and have planned around it to be able to fulfill his purpose in spite of me.

And that seems to be the model described in the Scriptures. God is sovereign and is the source of our moral code. And we, as his subjects, follow or disobey. For obedience there is reward. For disobedience there is punishment. But his willingness to allow us to disobey does not diminish his sovereignty.

While there are some individual passages that would seem to support a deterministic approach to free will, the Scripture as a whole teaches that, while God is sovereign, humans do have a free will that allows us to choose to act in ways that are contrary to God’s will for us.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/how-do-we-reconcile-gods-sovereignty-and-human-free-will.html

OAM4J
NLFPMOD
MYND44
SEUN

correct and that God allows some things to happen is because they work together for good. So those whom we think are doing things against God but God let's them be, is because there's a purpose they are serving

A tree branch either bears fruit or is used as firewood. Don't be surprised if the lake of fire has a great universal purpose, and people have to be there for that purpose and it wasn't an after thought but an original intention.

AntiChristian:
According to the Bible, is God aware of the choices man would make?

For example, did God know Adam and Eve would eat the Apple?

According to the Quran/hadith Allah predestined Adam to sin and he did, why did Allah punished him for doing what he was destined to do by Allah?

Dtruthspeaker:
Tweaking means you have freewill, which is why you said "tweaking" and not pupeteering which clearly lacks free will.

People who tweak each other. Posts here are raised to tweak other persons eg feminism posts, red pills, pro God and anti God post. And this is even the distant tweaking not to talk of the direct tweakings we do to a person eg wifes to husbands, mother to children, work place conduct etc

All these are exercises of tweakings yet the person tweaked has not lost his power to exercise freewill.

Yes, aside freewill, people can be manipulated , there are degrees of dark psychology, esoteric engineerings, the government , , big corporations, media etc

Most of our actions are beign indirectly controlled by them
They created the metrics which made it hard for us to escape and the worst is not beign aware of these manipulations

We are so innured that our psycho mechanisms has been bent on seeking their approvals and rewards

However it is still up to a man to know himself , unplug from the system and begin to ask questions

There are things that are made to be, like coincidences and predetermined fixed event ,just like certain number making in complex binary intervals

There are areas that proves God's unchangeable demand , like a fish swallowed Jonah, delivering him to niniveh for his assignment even at his own objection

But at the end it will rest on a man making a choice between the left and right and that will be his destiny

We are Seekers and the truth will set us free

criuze:
Yes, aside freewill, people can be manipulated , there are degrees of dark psychology, esoteric engineerings, the government , , big corporations, media etc

Most of our actions are beign indirectly controlled by them
They created the metrics which made it hard for us to escape and the worst is not beign aware of these manipulations

We are so innured that our psycho mechanisms has been bent on seeking their approvals and rewards

However it is still up to a man to know himself , unplug from the system and begin to ask questions

There are things that are made to be, like coincidences and predetermined fixed event ,just like certain number making in complex binary intervals

There are areas that proves God's unchangeable demand , like a fish swallowed Jonah, delivering him to niniveh for his assignment even at his own objection

But at the end it will rest on a man making a choice between the left and right and that will be his destiny

We are Seekers and the truth will set us free

Precisely!

Dtruthspeaker:
Precisely!

Thanks for understanding

I appreciate

advocatejare:
According to the Quran/hadith Allah predestined Adam to sin and he did, why did Allah punished him for doing what he was destined to do by Allah?

You answered my question with your question. Is that sane in holy spirit land?

AntiChristian:
You answered my question with your question. Is that sane in holy spirit land?

Antichristian🤨 communicating in a civilized manner😲

Being reasonable and open to logical conclusions🤧

There's nothing God can not do 🤭

Gabrielshow24:
Antichristian🤨 communicating in a civilized manner😲

Being reasonable and open to logical conclusions🤧

There's nothing God can not do 🤭

I have it both ways! See me and Max here. But if changes it for me I'll change it too!

AntiChristian:
I have it both ways! See me and Max here. But if changes it for me I'll change it too!

Please don't count me along with them we are Jehovah's Witnesses but them i don't know where they belong because they can't come up as one with the same doctrine!