₦airaland Forum

kingxsamz:
Even true believers go dey fear to be true believers, before their god will fuuIishly use them to play bet with Satan. 😂

Now you are talking as an atheist!

You don't even know the meaning of the word "BELIEVE"
The TRUST (BELIEVE) is so strong in our minds that nothing can shake our faith in God:

On the contrary, in all these things we are coming off completely victorious through the one who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:37-39

Jesus said:

“I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;  and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26

So true believers know that this is not the life our God purposed for us:

safely treasuring up for themselves a fine foundation for the future, so that they may get a firm hold on the real life. 1Timothy 6:19

Here we are like strangers because the plan our God has for us is to LIVE FOREVER! John 3:16; Psalms 37:29

kingxsamz:
What's this one talking about again?

Don't worry believers understands:

No weapon formed against you will have any success, And you will condemn any tongue that rises up against you in the judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of Jehovah, And their righteousness is from me,” declares Jehovah. Isaiah 54:17

You will notice that unlike the common churchgoers who will start insulting, abusing or cursing you i present my faith with calmness of mind {1Peter 3:15} it's you who is now feeling uncomfortable as your mockery is shattered!

gohf:
it's cute that you say checkmate when you barely made move.

Very few moves are needed when the king is already in a compromised position, courtesy of his own mis-steps, ergo, the killer blow: checkmate in 1 or 2. Keep up .

1. God chooses because He is Judge and His judgement is based on this, blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. God said He has kept mercy for those who love Him. But you assume it is on a whim, unpredictable and impulsively wicked. So you who claim to judge him wicked, should those who are merciful not obtain mercy? Should they not be chosen for mercy?

Cute response, but a rather unfortunate one, because the Christian concept of an omnibenevolent deity overturns all your efforts at reconciling this conundrum. Such a deity would, by definition, be naturally merciful and forgiving, without condition, or expectation of reward. Thus, we would have to ponder the true nature of your deity if indeed his mercy is based on specific criteria as it undermines the primary declarations, made in the Bible, of his character. Picture a reality where firefighters only rescued persons deemed worthy only by the firefighters' arbitrary standards. How does that sound to you?

The very essence of mercy lies in its unconditional nature, but the way you've explained it makes it no less different from a transactional agreement, reducing mercy to a quid-pro-quo arrangement, where the grantor of mercy must expect something in return, and this is hardly indicative of the hallmark of a truly omnibenevolent deity. But god "keep[ing] mercy for those who love Him", made me chuckle though . Dunno why. Maybe it's because the concept sounds to me like a divine "spin the wheel and see what number you can come up with" type of game lol.

2. Before you write an exam, there already exists an answer sheet, before you write the exam, all possible answers were taught to you. Are those then who choose to listen, study and prepare believing what they were taught and applying them, called hapless?

Smh at you sugarcoating divine capriciousness with this charmingly naive analogy, that doesn't address nada, and isn't even applied properly lol.

Now let me help you: Playing along with your analogy through the lens of divine predestination, we can confidently assert that, in view of your funny logic, some students will be pre-selected to fail, no matter how studious or diligent they were before the exams. Pretty much the same as those wicked lecturers, who arrogate the full power of the success and failure of their students, to themselves. In this case, the hapless fellows, my friend, are those dumbass students who think their efforts matter when, in reality, marks have already been allocated, and the results fully prepared. Is this fair to you, gohf? By your own twisted logic?

If you were told a lie, blame the one who mislead you. If you want the truth ask and seek for it, do not assume in your ignorance to know the difference between God's predestination and the choice He has given to them. Don't you know that even those who were called may not be chosen, thereby granting an opportunity for others to be called. No you don't, if you did you would have humility and show honesty and not your arrogance from your ignorance.

True free will requires that the outcomes are NOT preordained. An actor has a little bit of agency in his use of words and improv, but does that mean he can transcend his eventual fate in the movie script? You deign to cast aspersions on me and call me arrogant simply because I refuse to accept a reality that makes a mockery of human autonomy, but who is truly arrogant in ignorance here, gohf? You say I should seek the truth, but do you even know what truth is? Truth, my friend, is not the exclusive domain of those who subscribe, unapologetically, to a particular set of beliefs. Truth is established via the pursuit of knowledge, intentional application of critical thinking, and developing a level of intellectual self-awareness to be able to question the status quo. If divine predestination is true, then free will as a concept becomes an elaborate charade, no matter how much philosophical window dressing you apply to deceive yourself that it isn't.

3. Do you even know what a soul is, and where is comes from? Where you there when your soul was to be formed? You speak a lot of rubbish then mention consent, who did you give consent to before you had this life of yours, or from whom would you quary for taking it away? Please open your eyes, look at the chessboard, you are yet to make a move.

The entire essence of my position rests not on the metaphysical origins of "souls", neither does it rest on my presence at it's formation. The subject under scrutiny here is your god, as well as the ethical implications of him using sentient beings as lab rats. And we're not talking about pre-life consent, but of the ethical treatment of conscious mortal beings like you and me, here and now in the present.

When the blind say, "as we can all see". Are you referring to the darkness within or your inability to tell that there's light outside of you?

I assure you, gohf, my clarity on the matter is as bright as the daylight you so fondly mention, even if your own logic remains in the shadows .

The lie that has blinded you, is it that there exists an get-out-of-moral-accountabilty-free card. the god that sold that lie to you is also the one that has blinded you

Then maybe you should read your Bible again, more carefully, and watch your infantile god in action as he always tries to eat his cake and have it.

Do you even know the game?
Are you playing chess or cards?

Chess o, Checkers o, Whot o, you and your god are dealing from the bottom of the deck !

MaxInDHouse:
And you've forgotten that people living back then has been brainwashed by the demons they worship to trust in their own weapons and strength against any God whatever you may say!

Lol, smh, you didn't have to respond, Max. Silence would be a more respectable retort than this funny response where you decide to take a drastic leap of faith, off the cliff of logical reasoning, lol.

Meanwhile, I'm interested to hear your opinion, Max, as an expert on demonology, on which particular brand of demon-induced brainwashing you readily and whole-heartedly attribute to, for instance, the impressive architectural feats of the ancient Egyptians, as well as their highly sophisticated system of mathematics?

Do you reckon it was Beelzebub's "Mathematics for Dummies" and "Engineering 101"? Abeg I wan know !

MaxInDHouse:
You think by your words that God must show you Himself, shey?

Guy stop being childish jọọ you must play by the rules He set to perceive Him it's when you follow such rules and find out that He doesn't prove Himself that you can say He doesn't exist!

So your god is no more "I Am That I Am" .

He has become "I Am That I Might Be, Maybe, If You Follow These Very Specific Rules..."

You got jokes bro. Kikikikiki .

TheDevilsBride:
Very few moves are needed when the king is already in a compromised position, courtesy of his own mis-steps, ergo, the killer blow: checkmate in 1 or 2. Keep up .



Cute response, but a rather unfortunate one, because the Christian concept of an omnibenevolent deity overturns all your efforts at reconciling this conundrum. Such a deity would, by definition, be naturally merciful and forgiving, without condition, or expectation of reward. Thus, we would have to ponder the true nature of your deity if indeed his mercy is based on specific criteria as it undermines the primary declarations, made in the Bible, of his character. Picture a reality where firefighters only rescued persons deemed worthy only by the firefighters' arbitrary standards. How does that sound to you?

The very essence of mercy lies in its unconditional nature, but the way you've explained it makes it no less different from a transactional agreement, reducing mercy to a quid-pro-quo arrangement, where the grantor of mercy must expect something in return, and this is hardly indicative of the hallmark of a truly omnibenevolent deity. But god "keep[ing] mercy for those who love Him", made me chuckle though . Dunno why. Maybe it's because the concept sounds to me like a divine "spin the wheel and see what number you can come up with" type of game lol.

even a fool finds amusing what they do not understand and that's understandable, it is stated in proverbs words which you are obviously ignorant of, but unsurprising you make assumptions with such arrogant confidence one would think you have knowledge of what you speak of. When was mercy ever stated to be unconditional. Like I said, if you blind you wouldn't see the light nor realize the one who has blinded you and think to yourself that you were born that way and every other person is the same.

But even though ignorant isn't it stupid to think mercy is unconditional when judgement exists. Why then does judgement exist? When you reject the truth and believe a lie, you birth a confusion that drives your mind to destruction.

Because mercy has a condition doesn't mean it is reduced to your petty nature of evaluating everything into materialistic terms.


How absurd, should an unrepentant evil be given mercy unconditional just to justify the false god you created in your mind as what is acceptable to you. You would have to be an ignorant fool to be such a god, you would have to be blind and deceivable to let go of one because they say sorry whereas there hearts remain as evil as it was before.

Don't you agree? Such is foolishness.

But then again how can the judgement of the blind be compared to the one who actually sees.

Smh at you sugarcoating divine capriciousness with this charmingly naive analogy, that doesn't address nada, and isn't even applied properly lol.

Now let me help you: Playing along with your analogy through the lens of divine predestination, we can confidently assert that, in view of your funny logic, some students will be pre-selected to fail, no matter how studious or diligent they were before the exams. Pretty much the same as those wicked lecturers, who arrogate the full power of the success and failure of their students, to themselves. In this case, the hapless fellows, my friend, are those dumbass students who think their efforts matter when, in reality, marks have already been allocated, and the results fully prepared. Is this fair to you, gohf? By your own twisted logic?

True free will requires that the outcomes are NOT preordained.

even among men, you are free to make a choice but not free to determine the consequences of your decisions. How pathetic that you wrote of a spinning wheel and still do not understand such simple stuff, or in your terms, simple "concept".

You asked me a question
"Picture a reality where firefighters only rescued persons deemed worthy only by the firefighters' arbitrary standards. How does that sound to you?"

Let me ask you can firefighters save those who have died to the fire?

The basis of your question reflects a wicked and selfish nature and is irrespective to making judgement.

Can a firefighter save you after you have set yourself on fire?

Even among firefighters they have limited time and would choose to save those who are savable within their power and means. Yes, it's a reality you can't accept because you have chosen delusion.

An actor has a little bit of agency in his use of words and improv, but does that mean he can transcend his eventual fate in the movie script? You deign to cast aspersions on me and call me arrogant simply because I refuse to accept a reality that makes a mockery of human autonomy, but who is truly arrogant in ignorance here, gohf? You say I should seek the truth, but do you even know what truth is? Truth, my friend, is not the exclusive domain of those who subscribe, unapologetically, to a particular set of beliefs. Truth is established via the pursuit of knowledge, intentional application of critical thinking, and developing a level of intellectual self-awareness to be able to question the status quo. If divine predestination is true, then free will as a concept becomes an elaborate charade, no matter how much philosophical window dressing you apply to deceive yourself that it isn't.

look it's understandable when you say primary declaration because you are ignorant of what is said and what is written, but such folly should not be the basis of your reasoning.

You speak of an author and forget that he was casted and chosen and accepted both the role and the script. Are you also ignorant of that common practice among humans, being ignorant of God's word is understandable but must you show such level of ignorance of what is common knowledge?

Yet you say, "I call you arrogant simply because you refuse to accept a reality" when it is evident from your words that you don't.

Amuse me a bit, since you find some of this cute and funny, you probably have a lot of mental imaginations to speak about.

Let me use your own words
Truth is established via the pursuit of knowledge... so my question stands, have you sought the truth or stayed within the confines of the lies fed to you or your own imagination. Listen if something you tells you what you heard is a lie, is it not common sense to verify and find out the truth.

Look I was you without the arrogance, I was not born with knowledge so I read, I prayed, I worked hard silently for year, and I still do, do not make a mockery of those who actually asked when you don't even bother to search.

Where is your critical thinking and level of intelligence when you do not understand my words, when you call a simple analogy as "sugarcoating divine capriciousness with this charmingly naive analogy" but conclude that
"If divine predestination is true, then free will as a concept becomes an elaborate charade"
The entire essence of my position rests not on the metaphysical origins of "souls", neither does it rest on my presence at it's formation." Whereas you gave an analogy using wicked lectures and an unfair system.

You cannot see the truth, if turn that which is good wicked just to win an argument, you cannot see if you call light darkness.

You are shaking your head and not hearing what I am saying but the vibrations in your head as a result of the shaking. If you tried reasoning and looking for the truth without prejudice you might actually understand, but would a deep rooted hate let you. Is there a need to set anyone up to fail if they don't even show up in class in the first place?

The likes of you cannot claim to be ignorant, whereas there is mercy for those who were not privileged to know, but then what about you. In a day an age when you can actually access a bible and READ it and STUDY it, you fail to do so, you can reach out and ask questions but you fail to do so. So you think the excuse is o, you are predestined to fail.

Cut the crap, you think I studied and worked hard because I had some special calls or that I am better than you. No, I am doing my best as I have nothing to lose, but then what about you what do you lose from doing what is right? Meanwhile you sit on your ass to mock those who do?

You want to know what is fair, that everyone gets rewarded for what they have done. And that's what the message is and what the truth is. If you then speak against this, who then is twisting the truth?

The subject under scrutiny here is your god, as well as the ethical implications of him using sentient beings as lab rats. And we're not talking about pre-life consent, but of the ethical treatment of conscious mortal beings like you and me, here and now in the present.

You talk about "the ethical treatment of conscious mortal beings like you and me, here and now in the present." Meanwhile here is your so called bringing him under scrutiny, "Your god using human souls as "warning props" in divine performances, for the infantile and pointless purpose of establishing his supernatural authority is about as morally defensible"

What give you the validation to perform such scrutiny, when from your obviously lack of response and lack of knowledge to answer my questions, you show that you are not a witness to how souls were made nor how they are treated. You cannot even admit that you do not own your own life, that in itself is arrogance, what is me saying you should also query whoever takes your life away too much for you?

Or at least if you are or were a lab rat, do tell us your experiences and stop making things up like a bad sci-fi script

I assure you, gohf, my clarity on the matter is as bright as the daylight you so fondly mention, even if your own logic remains in the shadows .



Then maybe you should read your Bible again, more carefully, and watch your infantile god in action as he always tries to eat his cake and have it.



Chess o, Checkers o, Whot o, you and your god are dealing from the bottom of the deck !

if you indeed have clarity as you claim, why not provide evidence that you have been used as a lab rat. That is basic common sense for human scrutiny

MaxInDHouse:
Don't worry believers understands:

No weapon formed against you will have any success, And you will condemn any tongue that rises up against you in the judgment.

Yeah, until Yahweh use you and your family play bet. 😂

MaxInDHouse:
Now you are talking as an atheist!

You don't even know the meaning of the word "BELIEVE"
The TRUST (BELIEVE) is so strong in our minds that nothing can shake our faith in God:

On the contrary, in all these things we are coming off completely victorious through the one who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:37-39

Jesus said:

“I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;  and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26

So true believers know that this is not the life our God purposed for us:

safely treasuring up for themselves a fine foundation for the future, so that they may get a firm hold on the real life. 1Timothy 6:19

Here we are like strangers because the plan our God has for us is to LIVE FOREVER! John 3:16; Psalms 37:29

Not reading all that.
That one concern you and your fellow believers.
Like I said before, your god is a lover of destruction, disaster and chaos. He's an orchestrator of misfortune. He sets people up to fail and you're only wasting your time explaining anything to me.

TheDevilsBride:
Lol, smh, you didn't have to respond, Max. Silence would be a more respectable retort than this funny response where you decide to take a drastic leap of faith, off the cliff of logical reasoning, lol.

Meanwhile, I'm interested to hear your opinion, Max, as an expert on demonology, on which particular brand of demon-induced brainwashing you readily and whole-heartedly attribute to, for instance, the impressive architectural feats of the ancient Egyptians, as well as their highly sophisticated system of mathematics?

Do you reckon it was Beelzebub's "Mathematics for Dummies" and "Engineering 101"? Abeg I wan know !

Which one you dey gangan?
You don't want my response or you want my response?
Anyway i can't blame you because we are not operating on the same level!

TheDevilsBride:
So your god is no more "I Am That I Am" .
He has become "I Am That I Might Be, Maybe, If You Follow These Very Specific Rules..."
You got jokes bro. Kikikikiki .

That's another problem you people often have: Translators!

God promised to prove Himself the way He will prove Himself that's the import of that verse so why not find out how He chose to reveal Himself instead of making demands?
To Him you don't even exist because His worshipers are fulfilling His purposes as He's guiding them by His Holy Spirit.
So if you don't care to know how He is achieving that your complaint is of no relevance to Him!

kingxsamz:
Yeah, until Yahweh use you and your family play bet. 😂

Another issue with Atheism!
I don't have any family now until God's Kingdom comes when neither myself or my wife will grow old or die.
That's when family matters not now that death can come anytime!

kingxsamz:
Not reading all that.
That one concern you and your fellow believers.
Like I said before, your god is a lover of destruction, disaster and chaos. He's an orchestrator of misfortune. He sets people up to fail and you're only wasting your time explaining anything to me.

I have told you my explanation is not for you but to strengthen believers so if you don't want to read then stop asking because the more you ask the more i will expose your spiritual ignorance!

gohf:
even a fool finds amusing what they do not understand and that's understandable, it is stated in proverbs words which you are obviously ignorant of, but unsurprising you make assumptions with such arrogant confidence one would think you have knowledge of what you speak of.

I'm not surprised watching you dodge the point with this lazy hand waving. Your constant allusions to perceived "arrogance" on my end only serves to underscore the fragility of your position in this debate. Except, perhaps, you really do not know what that term omnibenevolence connotes, I don't see how you can deny the fact that the notion of divine mercy operating on a quid pro quo basis, is fundamentally at odds with the concept of an omnibenevolent deity. Obviously you would have no choice but to project your poor understanding on me, because I find it quite telling that you struggle to discern the logical inconsistency in attributing selective mercy to an all-loving being.

When was mercy ever stated to be unconditional

Playing dumb, are we, gohf?

The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever; he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him
- Psalms 103:8-11

For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations
- Psalms 100:5

Now I can already predict what your next argument might be to twist these verses, but I'm already prepared. I'll wait for you to present it and watch you, as you inadvertently dismantle your deity with the very words that escape your lips, lol.

Like I said, if you blind you wouldn't see the light nor realize the one who has blinded you and think to yourself that you were born that way and every other person is the same.

If only your divine luminary could illuminate this argument as clearly as you see my supposed "blindness".

But even though ignorant isn't it stupid to think mercy is unconditional when judgement exists. Why then does judgement exist? When you reject the truth and believe a lie, you birth a confusion that drives your mind to destruction.

Mercy transcends judgement, even in the realm of human justice, so your belief that mercy cannot be conditional in the face of justice is unjustified, and makes a mockery of what you think truth is. The concept of justice is significantly enhanced by mercy through dimensions of humanity and compassion being added to the process, which in turn, ensures that justice is not merely a cold and mechanical process, but one that takes into consideration, the full spectrum of the human experience and human potential.

FYI, judgement has been overriden many times in judicial systems, on account of circumstances and the complexity of human behavior. For instance, when mercy intervenes, we get reduced sentences, probation, or even a pardon for some defaulters. This is not to negate the wrongdoing of the defaulters but to give them the opportunity to right their wrongs and make amends.

Because mercy has a condition doesn't mean it is reduced to your petty nature of evaluating everything into materialistic terms.

So mercy, in your deity's economy, is meted out conditionally, and yet you have insisted that this somehow doesn't diminish its inherent value. Riddle me this then, that if mercy is indeed conditional, upon what basis do you differentiate it from, say, a reward or a recompense? And at what point does mercy cease to be mercy and become a transactional arrangement?

How absurd, should an unrepentant evil be given mercy unconditional just to justify the false god you created in your mind as what is acceptable to you. You would have to be an ignorant fool to be such a god, you would have to be blind and deceivable to let go of one because they say sorry whereas there hearts remain as evil as it was before.

I'm not sure how you managed to misconstrue my argument to mean mindless support of evil, but I'll try to make things clearer here. When I say unconditional mercy, I definitely do not mean turning a blind eye to wrongdoing. I'm simply alluding to the act of wilfully offering a chance at redemption and change. That's what separates a compassionate teacher from a ruthless disciplinarian with a complex.

Don't you agree? Such is foolishness.

Well, I'd argue that clinging to the notion that mercy must always be conditional is the true folly here, so maybe it's time we rethink who the real fool is in this equation.

But then again how can the judgement of the blind be compared to the one who actually sees

And yet you, the one with the stellar eye sight, keep bumping into every logical fallacy in the room.

even among men, you are free to make a choice but not free to determine the consequences of your decisions.

For someone with spectacular eyesight, you sure seem to have an overly simplistic view of concepts, eschewing depth and nuance. The consequences of choices is not the crux of the matter here, but the very nature of those choices as they appear, within the framework of divine predestination. You've only sidestepped the fundamental inconsistency here of an all-knowing deity who grants free will but preordains outcomes, to fixate on an irrelevant frivolity. If we have to conclude that divine judgment is based on choices that were never truly free, then we also just have to accept that it renders the entire concept of moral accountability meaningless.

How pathetic that you wrote of a spinning wheel and still do not understand such simple stuff, or in your terms, simple "concept"

It's partly funny and disappointing, watching you attempt to indict me for confusion, when your rejoinder is a breathtaking exemplar of obtuseness. My spinning wheel analogy, which was obviously intended to illustrate the arbitrary nature of your god's selective mercy, clearly whizzed past your cerebral cortex like an elusive will-o'-the-wisp, flitting tantalizingly beyond your cognitive grasp.

You asked me a question
"Picture a reality where firefighters only rescued persons deemed worthy only by the firefighters' arbitrary standards. How does that sound to you?"

Yes, a valid question that should, at the very least, make you reassess your position more carefully in this discussion.

Let me ask you can firefighters save those who have died to the fire?

Lol, this is why you shouldn't be making needless and fallacious deflections, because you mostly end up missing the entire point. We're addressing this issue on the fundamental principle of offering help and mercy unconditionally. Anything less is divine favoritism, not omnibenevolence, so this question is hilariously irrelevant. Firefighters are tasked with saving as many as are in danger at a given point in time, irrespective of who they are, because that is the very essence of their duty: compassion without any prejudice. If your god's mercy is as capricious as the arbitrary standards you defend, then it rightfully calls into question his ulterior motives, and hence, the true nature of his compassion.

The basis of your question reflects a wicked and selfish nature and is irrespective to making judgement.

Smh at you, charcoal, calling snow white, black. So my inquiries are, according to you, are "wicked and selfish", and yet somehow you are the one defending a god who seems to enjoy playing favorites. That's mighty rich, coming from gohf, who is ostensibly advocating for a deity that is supposed to embody unconditional love and mercy but manifests anything but.

Can a firefighter save you after you have set yourself on fire?

Abeg o, isn't it a true test of a firefighter's bravery to at least, attempt a rescue, regardless of the circumstances? Abi we are now relegating divine mercy to a spectator sport, as part of a sick joke? What are you even saying?

Even among firefighters they have limited time and would choose to save those who are savable within their power and means. Yes, it's a reality you can't accept because you have chosen delusion.

That awkward moment where gohf waxes poetic about delusions, blissfully oblivious to the fact that his words have unwittingly greased the wheels of my argument, making my case a fait accompli, lol. Of course firefighters are indeed limited by time and resources. Can you guess who's not supposed to be limited by such earthly constraints though? Exactly .

look it's understandable when you say primary declaration because you are ignorant of what is said and what is written, but such folly should not be the basis of your reasoning.

Come now, level with me gohf. Have you taken the moment to sit back and consider the possibility that your own cognitive biases are masquerading as divine insight? Or perhaps such notions are too heretical to be entertained by someone as yourself who clearly views himself as enlightened?

You speak of an author and forget that he was casted and chosen and accepted both the role and the script. Are you also ignorant of that common practice among humans, being ignorant of God's word is understandable but must you show such level of ignorance of what is common knowledge?

Tsk, you should really learn when and how certain analogies apply in an argument, gohf, to avoid making woefully incomplete analogies like this.

Yes, actors do choose to participate in movies, but they do so, armed with the knowledge and understanding that the script is already predetermined, and that their autonomy is strictly limited to their performance within the confines of that script, and so they can never transcend the script. And this, my good fellow, is precisely the point: their freedom is nothing more than an illusion, bound by the narrative already written by the scriptwriter/s. In similar vein, if God truly does preordain all outcomes, it's quite safe to surmise that our choices and decisions merely constitute performance in a play where the ending is already known by god, who is the author and the finisher. True free will in this context would require the capabilities to break the fourth wall, and alter the script to change the ending, to whatever we want. Unfortunately for us, predestination denies this possibility.

Once again, if divine predestination is true, then free will is a mirage, and the moral responsibility ascribed to human actions becomes fundamentally undermined.

Yet you say, "I call you arrogant simply because you refuse to accept a reality" when it is evident from your words that you don't.

It's the irony of you accusing me of arrogance for the mere act of questioning obvious theological contradictions, lol. What you confuse for arrogance, ser gohf, is nothing more than intellectual humility, acknowledging my ignorance, and seeking understanding, choosing fact over fiction and fallacies.

Amuse me a bit, since you find some of this cute and funny, you probably have a lot of mental imaginations to speak about.

Sure, why not? It beats being stuck on repeat, parroting Biblical rhetorics like a theocratic tape recorder.

Let me use your own words
Truth is established via the pursuit of knowledge... so my question stands, have you sought the truth or stayed within the confines of the lies fed to you or your own imagination. Listen if something you tells you what you heard is a lie, is it not common sense to verify and find out the truth.

You first, gohf. Why don't you go first? Tell us, have you ever explored reality beyond the bubble of dogmatic certainty you reside, refusing to question the status quo or challenge your own beliefs? Hmmm? I'd advise you to save your condescending and sanctimonious lectures about "truth seeking" for people who are too thick to see through your hypocrisies here. FYI, I've spent many years studying and questioning, and delving into a vast array of subjects, from physics, biology, psychology, philosophy, history etc etc and I've come to my conclusions based on evidence, logic and intellectual curiosity.

I do not put my faith in ancient texts and doctrines that exist for the exact purpose of stifling critical thinking. So don't come here and try to pull the wool over readers' eyes, pretending like you're a critical thinker, especially when your religion places special value and/or emphasis on the need for blind faith, while castigating honest intellectual inquiry in the same breath, lol.

Your entire belief system rests on the idea of wilfully accepting, without hesitation or questioning, the "truth" as revealed by your god. Where's the verification and/or pursuit of knowledge? Hmmm?

gohf:
Look I was you without the arrogance, I was not born with knowledge so I read, I prayed, I worked hard silently for year, and I still do, do not make a mockery of those who actually asked when you don't even bother to search.

So you graduated from the School of Silent Suffering and Pious Perseverance. Big whoop! I'll have you know, though, that praying and fasting and studying and working hard in your theological echo chamber hardly qualifies, in any realm of reason, as honest and rigorous pursuit of truth. Isn't it funny, gohf, how clueless you are to the extent of your ignorance, even as you bask in the glow of your self-righteousness, huh? Had you any smidgen of intellectual humility and/or integrity, you'd have known that rigorous pursuit of truth involves challenging your precious beliefs and not just polishing them.

Where is your critical thinking and level of intelligence when you do not understand my words, when you call a simple analogy as "sugarcoating divine capriciousness with this charmingly naive analogy" but conclude that
"If divine predestination is true, then free will as a concept becomes an elaborate charade"
The entire essence of my position rests not on the metaphysical origins of "souls", neither does it rest on my presence at it's formation." Whereas you gave an analogy using wicked lectures and an unfair system.

My "wicked lecturers" analogy was supposed to be a poignant critique of the divine predestination model you presented. I merely highlighted its inherent injustice. The fact that you couldn't grasp the pertinacity of my illustrations only speaks to your simplistic reasoning, if I'm being honest. My analogies were clear and direct, unlike yours that were woefully misapplied. It's not my ignorance on display here, but rather your alarming inability to grasp the core argument here, that true free will can NOT coexist with preordained outcomes.

You cannot see the truth, if turn that which is good wicked just to win an argument, you cannot see if you call light darkness.

I'm sorry, gohf, but calling a spade a spade isn't "calling light darkness". I'm simply refusing to join you in playing make-believe with clearly stated definitions, lol.

You are shaking your head and not hearing what I am saying but the vibrations in your head as a result of the shaking. If you tried reasoning and looking for the truth without prejudice you might actually understand, but would a deep rooted hate let you. Is there a need to set anyone up to fail if they don't even show up in class in the first place?

It's not that I'm not hearing you, gohf, I hear you loud and clear. It's just that I'm not interested in buying what you're selling, lol. And as for the "deep-rooted hate" you've somehow ascribed to my comments, I think you're mistaking my disdain for your arguments with a personal vendetta, which I must say, betrays the state of your own mind in this discussion.

The likes of you cannot claim to be ignorant, whereas there is mercy for those who were not privileged to know, but then what about you. In a day an age when you can actually access a bible and READ it and STUDY it, you fail to do so, you can reach out and ask questions but you fail to do so. So you think the excuse is o, you are predestined to fail.

Trust me, I've read your Bible, in and out, from OT to NT, Genesis to Revelations, even the deuterocanonical books sef, all with a fine tooth comb, and my reading of the books is precisely why I'm not buying what you're selling, lol.

Cut the crap, you think I studied and worked hard because I had some special calls or that I am better than you. No, I am doing my best as I have nothing to lose, but then what about you what do you lose from doing what is right? Meanwhile you sit on your ass to mock those who do?

My friend, humility is not all about pretending to be self-effacing, while simultaneously implying divine favor in the same breath. As for what I lose by doing what's right, I'd readily confess and say, that my biggest loss has been having to endure pious, sanctimonious sermons from armchair theologians like yourself. Don't let me interrupt you though, please, do go on about how your god-driven bootstraps are the epitome of moral virtue. Kikikikikiki.

You want to know what is fair, that everyone gets rewarded for what they have done. And that's what the message is and what the truth is. If you then speak against this, who then is twisting the truth?

The universe, unfortunately, doesn't care about your notion of fairness, neither does it care for mine. It's just an indifferent, uncaring, unbothered expanse that operates according to its own laws and principles, damn your desires and wishes. As for twisting the "truth", I should probably remind you that I'm not the one who's been asserting that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving and ever present deity has ordained every and all events in the universe, including the choices and actions we take as humans, and yet somehow simultaneously expects us to be held accountable for those decisions he has made us take. You're the one who has attempted (and failed) to reconcile the apparent contradictions here with amusing and bizarre logic twists that would impress even the most skilled contortionists.

You talk about "the ethical treatment of conscious mortal beings like you and me, here and now in the present." Meanwhile here is your so called bringing him under scrutiny, "Your god using human souls as "warning props" in divine performances, for the infantile and pointless purpose of establishing his supernatural authority is about as morally defensible"

Lmao . The only thing that can rival the grandeur of your deflections so far in our correspondence, is perhaps, the magnitude of your god's alleged ego. I actually wasn't scrutinizing the treatment of souls in some otherworldly, ethereal realm, but rather, the treatment of sentient living things by your god, right here, in this world we're living in. The quote you provided from my comments was intended to underscore the laughable absurdity of the actions of your god. So, humor me then, gohf, why the double standard? How is it your god get a free pass for behaviour that ideally would be deemed reprehensible if it were anyone else?

What give you the validation to perform such scrutiny, when from your obviously lack of response and lack of knowledge to answer my questions, you show that you are not a witness to how souls were made nor how they are treated. You cannot even admit that you do not own your own life, that in itself is arrogance, what is me saying you should also query whoever takes your life away too much for you?

So because I wasn't in the celestial waiting room when your god was supposedly doling out souls like raffle tickets, it means I'm now disqualified from discussing the ethical quagmire he's allegedly created for himself and his worshippers, abi? No wahala. In the spirit of disqualification, and faithfully abiding by your own logic, you are equally unqualified to speak on the matter as well, unless you've got a signed and notarized affidavit from the Big Man himself. Did you, gohf, perchance get a front-row seat to the soul-forging workshop? No? Then ogbeni, pipe down and stop getting your knickers in a twist over irrelevant nonsense smh, lol.

I don't own my life any more than I own the road in my neighborhood. But the fact that I don't possess ownership in it shouldn't therefore mean that I must not have a vested interest in how it is treated, and maintained, given that it is my only route to my place of work. A tenant might not own the house he stays in. Doesn't mean he should keep mum when robbers try to break in.

At this point, it's very obvious that you have a bizarre obsession with confusing metaphysical mumbo-jumbo, needlessly, with basic human decency. Whether souls exist abi they don't exist has a sum total of zero relevance to the question of whether conscious beings deserve to be treated properly and/or ethically. Let's do away with the unnecessary metaphysical baggage please, thank you, ser gohf.

Or at least if you are or were a lab rat, do tell us your experiences and stop making things up like a bad sci-fi script

I don't need to recount lab rat experiences to recognize a cage when I see one, and your entire theology has all the markings of a gilded trap.

if you indeed have clarity as you claim, why not provide evidence that you have been used as a lab rat. That is basic common sense for human scrutiny

Smh, the fact that you can't even grasp, or muster, the inherent exploitation in a so-called omnibenevolent deity creating sentient beings for its own purposes, only to punish or reward them based on arbitrary rules, speaks volumes upon volumes about the cognitive dissonance that has been inflicted on you. Open your eyes, indeed.

MaxInDHouse:
Which one you dey gangan?
You don't want my response or you want my response?
Anyway i can't blame you because we are not operating on the same level!

Not operating on the same level? Indeed, I'm up here with logic and reason, while you're down there with demonology and fairy tales .

MaxInDHouse:
That's another problem you people often have: Translators!

God promised to prove Himself the way He will prove Himself that's the import of that verse so why not find out how He chose to reveal Himself instead of making demands?
To Him you don't even exist because His worshipers are fulfilling His purposes as He's guiding them by His Holy Spirit.
So if you don't care to know how He is achieving that your complaint is of no relevance to Him!

A.K.A >>>

"God works in mysterious ways, but only if you read the specific translation I prefer, follow my exact interpretation, and stand on one foot while singing kumbaya"

TheDevilsBride:
Not operating on the same level? Indeed, I'm up here with logic and reason, while you're down there with demonology and fairy tales .

Hmmmmmmm, has this LOGIC and REASON of yours been able to uproot the hatred caused by racism in the minds of your pairs?

Well that is what the so called FAIRY TALES has done in the midst of millions throughout the world today. Psalms 46:9
God promised a time when people from different countries around the world will start paying attention to what is contained in the FAIRY TALES {Isaiah 2:2-3} and what will be the result? They will use what they found in it to settle their disparities peacefully among themselves divert their resources into production of food and information materials stop the making, buying, selling and usage of destructive devices and vow never to raise weapons against their neighbours! Isaiah 2:4
Do you think this could just happen by chance?

TheDevilsBride:
A.K.A >>>
"God works in mysterious ways, but only if you read the specific translation I prefer, follow my exact interpretation, and stand on one foot while singing kumbaya"

Hilarious indeed!

So you mean someone told you this and you took him seriously?

Come on my guy those are words to the misinformed religionists around you not what God said about Himself.

To Moses He said: “I Will Become What I Choose to Become.” He added “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘I Will Become has sent me to you.’” Exodus 3:14

Now what is the import of this statement?

The Israelites who were slaves in Egypt need to be freed but how? God CHOSE to use a stone to kill two birds by making the world's most powerful nation of that time release His people with trembling and fear. Egyptians and their King needs to see this God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in ACTION not physical but through what he chooses to become.

It's what He chooses (not what they ask) that both Moses, Israelites, Pharaoh had Egyptians need to know that truly He is the most high God.

So don't go about making demands thinking He must dance to your own tune rather follow what is stated in His words as promises and if such promises aren't coming to fulfillment then is the right time to say "He doesn't exist"

Most atheists will say they want to prove science against the existence of God but they will tell you to follow the process in which they've been taught so it's not you that will make demands regarding how they should prove what they had in mind but when the same atheist wants to talk about God he will start making demands instead of following the same process used to prove what he BELIEVES: SCIENCE!

GOD WANTED HIS HONOUR AND GLORY TO BE SEEN AND ENJOYED BY BOTH THE EGYPTIANS AND THE HEBREWS.

MaxInDHouse:
Hilarious indeed!

So you mean someone told you this and you took him seriously?

Come on my guy those are words to the misinformed religionists around you not what God said about Himself.

To Moses He said: “I Will Become What I Choose to Become.” He added “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘I Will Become has sent me to you.’” Exodus 3:14

Now what is the import of this statement?

The Israelites who were slaves in Egypt need to be freed but how? God CHOSE to use a stone to kill two birds by making the world's most powerful nation of that time release His people with trembling and fear. Egyptians and their King needs to see this God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in ACTION not physical but through what he chooses to become.

It's what He chooses (not what they ask) that both Moses, Israelites, Pharaoh had Egyptians need to know that truly He is the most high God.

So don't go about making demands thinking He must dance to your own tune rather follow what is stated in His words as promises and if such promises aren't coming to fulfillment then is the right time to say "He doesn't exist"

I like how you confidently present this hilariously circular proposition about your god and think you've made any profound theological insights. You make your god sound like a whiny little brat who can't even justify his actions and inactions. And lmfao at the Exodus 3:14 quote, that makes you think, for some odd reason, it makes any lick of sense, in this conversation. Proof-texting, as far as I've come to observe, is just another sign of the theological desperation that plagues you lot.

I do wonder though, if you've ever stopped to think about the implications of your god becoming whatsoever he chooses to become? I mean, if your god can just arbitrarily become whatever he wants, whenever he wants, then what do you suppose, Max, is the point of even having a concept of god in the first place? After all, chair is god, table is god, banana is god, toilet is god, bowl is god, fridge is god, cobwebs is god, babalawo is god etc etc lol.

MaxInDHouse:
Hmmmmmmm, has this LOGIN and REASON of yours been able to uproot the hatred caused by racism in the minds of your pairs?

Well that is what the so called FAIRY TALES has done in the midst of millions throughout the world today. Psalms 46:9
God promised a time when people from different countries around the world will start paying attention to what is contained in the FAIRY TALES {Isaiah 2:2-3} and what will be the result? They will use what they found in it to settle their disparities peacefully among themselves divert their resources into production of food and information materials stop the making, buying, selling and usage of destructive devices and vow never to raise weapons against their neighbours! Isaiah 2:4
Do you think this could just happen by chance?

Those fairy tales, saccharine feel-good narratives that they are, may have momentarily distracted from racism, but they've also been co-opted by the devoutly dogmatic to justify it in the same breath. Meanwhile, logic and reason, have been diligently dismantling racist ideologies, mercilessly, one empirically-supported fact at a time, rendering spurious appeals to divine intervention utterly redundant and ludicrous, lol.

TheDevilsBride:
After all, chair is god, table is god, banana is god, toilet is god, bowl is god, fridge is god, cobwebs is god, babalawo is god etc etc lol.

You see what i mean?

Instead of asking for the meaning of that statement you choose to give it your own meaning and so you think you have solved the riddle!

Well it simply means He will choose the best way to prove Himself so all you need to do is watch out for how He choose to do so not you dictating how He should prove His worth!

TheDevilsBride:
Those fairy tales, saccharine feel-good narratives that they are, may have momentarily distracted from racism, but they've also been co-opted by the devoutly dogmatic to justify it in the same breath. Meanwhile, logic and reason, have been diligently dismantling racist ideologies, mercilessly, one empirically-supported fact at a time, rendering spurious appeals to divine intervention utterly redundant and ludicrous, lol.

Guy abeg reduce the grammar i know sabi all these English don't think i'm one of those your former pastors who always use their eloquence to intimidate their audience so speak simple and easy to grasp English Sir!

What i mean is there is no LOGIC or REASON that could uproot the hatred caused by racism and politics but the so called FAIRY TALES book has solved that in the midst of its true adherents globally.

Do you get it now?

Interesting conversation here.

After a careful study of the Scriptures, one comes to the conclusion that faith in Christ is absolutely logical.

However, not many can articulate how faith is logical.
As an apologist, this is a crucial defense when engaging intellectuals who highly value reason and evidence.

After all, if God is, and is truly God, he gave us the ability to reason and be logical, therefore, he himself is a Mathematician of a very high order, as Paul Dirac would say.

Faith is not blindly following, it has a very heavy logical base as to why you should follow.
The scriptures say that God is not the author of confusion, and I agree.

MaxInDHouse:
You see what i mean?

Instead of asking for the meaning of that statement you choose to give it your own meaning and so you think you have solved the riddle!

Well it simply means He will choose the best way to prove Himself so all you need to do is watch out for how He choose to do so not you dictating how He should prove His worth!

I'm not surprised, that you religionists must try so hard to be clever by half, especially when pure logic fails to resolve your many obvious confusions .

So wish to convince me that your god is at liberty to arbitrarily decide the best way to prove himself, and I'm supposed to just take a seat, watch on, and applaud like a mindless drone? Nah, I'll pass on that one, my dear. Your god sounds like a dictator with delusions of grandeur, not a god that actually cares to establish a connection with the people he created.

Humor me though, if I'm not supposed to dictate how your god should prove his worth, then why, oh why, MaxInDHouse, do you suppose you have the liberty to dictate how I should interpret his intentionally cryptic, and evasive messages ?

MaxInDHouse:
Guy abeg reduce the grammar i know sabi all these English don't think i'm one of those your former pastors who always use their eloquence to intimidate their audience so speak simple and easy to grasp English Sir!

What i mean is there is no LOGIC or REASON that could uproot the hatred caused by racism and politics but the so called FAIRY TALES book has solved that in the midst of its true adherents globally.

Do you get it now?

I hear you. Abeg while you're at it, remember to sprinkle some pixie dust for us, at least to end world hunger and poverty. Joker .

Nachmonides:
Interesting conversation here.

After a careful study of the Scriptures, one comes to the conclusion that faith in Christ is absolutely logical.

However, not many can articulate how faith is logical.
As an apologist, this is a crucial defense when engaging intellectuals who highly value reason and evidence.

After all, if God is, and is truly God, he gave us the ability to reason and be logical, therefore, he himself is a Mathematician of a very high order, as Paul Dirac would say.

Faith is not blindly following, it has a very heavy logical base as to why you should follow.
The scriptures say that God is not the author of confusion, and I agree.

How is faith logical or not blind following as you put it?

Lucifyre:
How is faith logical or not blind following as you put it?

Before we go into the details, I'll say this and see what you have to say about it.

Alright.
Faith is logical because it is based on reason, evidence, and trust—not on blind adherence to something without basis. Here’s why:

I, Faith is Built on Evidence

Faith in Christ is not believing despite evidence but because of it. Consider:

Historical Evidence: The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus are well-documented historical events. Even non-Christian sources (Josephus, Tacitus) confirm aspects of His life.

Philosophical Evidence: The existence of the universe, morality, and human reason points to a rational Creator (e.g., the Cosmological and Moral Arguments).

Experiential Evidence: Millions testify to transformation through faith, aligning with biblical promises (2 Corinthians 5:17).


II, Faith is Not a Blind Leap, but a Reasoned Trust

Consider how we exercise faith in daily life:

You sit on a chair, trusting it will hold you—not blindly, but because you’ve seen chairs function before.

You board a plane, trusting the pilot, based on reasoning that pilots are trained professionals.


Similarly, biblical faith is trust in God based on who He is and what He has done—not blind belief, there's a knowledge base, a foundation.

III, Biblical Faith is Rooted in Reasoning

Isaiah 1:18 – "Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord."

Acts 17:2 – Paul "reasoned" with the Jews from the Scriptures.

1 Peter 3:15 – Christians must be ready to give "a reason for the hope that is in you."


God invites inquiry and rational thinking. Faith involves reasoning based on the available evidence, then trusting what is yet unseen (Hebrews 11:1).

IV, Faith Complements, Not Contradicts, Logic

Faith and logic work together like two sides of a coin:

Logic identifies the truth → Faith acts upon it.

Logic examines the evidence → Faith embraces its implications.

Logic leads to God → Faith is trusting Him beyond what we fully grasp.

Faith is logical because it is based on reasoning, evidence, and trust—just like how we operate in other areas of life. It’s not "blind," but a confident trust in the most reasonable explanation of life, morality, and existence.

Nachmonides:
Before we go into the details, I'll say this and see what you have to say about it.

Alright.
Faith is ll....

Faith is logical because it is based on reasoning, evidence, and trust—just like how we operate in other areas of life. It’s not "blind," but a confident trust in the most reasonable explanation of life, morality, and existence.

Man you just info dumped on me, that's a lot 😅. It's all good though, I'd just try nitpick through. First before making assertions about what faith can be, you need to define what exactly it is and going by the biblical definition alone already contradicts almost all your assertions. Heb 11:1 which you quoted basically contradicts that "Now faith is the confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see". That alone doesn't even support your assertions in the first place.

Now if we take the literal definition(Britannica), it defines faith as "something that is believed without being questioned or doubted ". Another definition from same source states "to accept (something) as true without proof or evidence that it is true". The definitions alone floor your assertions, even the bible. So where do you get your assertions from. You're practically imposing what you want it to be to fit your assertions, like how you guys renegotiate your texts.

The very definitions of faith shows its not compatible with logic. Now i'm not saying faith is illogical but it is a flawed process, it's basically the least form of acceptance and there's a reason it's the least and that's cause it simply can't be used to establish truth whatsoever. It is non-logical. Also there's a reason faith is mostly only used in religious contexts to establish something is true and nowhere else. Logic on the other hand is applied virtually everywhere even computers, because its consistent and non-contradictory which faith is obviously not.

As for the evidence you talk about, anecdotal subjective evidence is not evidence. I'm not sure if you've read up any of the evidence or even the one you cited cause if you study it, it basically contradicts majority of what's in the bible and that's asides from the bible contradicting itself which is impossible with logic. i find it funny when Josephus and Tacitus are quoted by christains cause it doesn't even tell us anything about Jesus' life save for the fact that he likely existed and was killed for been a nuisance to the romans, nothing about his resurrection or miracles or details of his life.

And the refs are very short on the side mentions when discussing something else, so he wasn't even the focus in those sources, a short line or two in the docs discussing something else. Most other evidences(be it historical, archeological or textual) majorly contradicts what's in the bible just as it contradicts itself like i earlier stated. So it's virtually incompatible for faith and logic to coexist. Faith doesn't lead to a creator, it suggests creators of which your particular arbitrarily selected faith settles you on a creator/creators dependendent on if your faith is polytheistic or monotheistic.

Way too kafakaesque to be logical, so it can't be used as a pathway to truth. Truth is objective, demonstrable, falsifiable and replicable which doesn't work with faith at all, no matter the particular faith belief you settle on out of the numerous ones existing and those that have existed. Also you do realise your bible is the claim and not the evidence, so citing the claim as evidence is funny, circular and fallacious.

Lucifyre:
...

Alright.

Faith, in the biblical sense, is not believing without evidence but rather trusting based on sufficient evidence as I've said. The Scriptures constantly appeal to reason:

Isaiah 1:18—"Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord."

1 Peter 3:15—"Always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you."

As I've said.

Christianity presents logical reasons to believe:

Cosmological Argument – The universe had a beginning; therefore, it must have a cause. Who or what is the cause of this?—Scriptures tell us it is a being, God.

Teleological Argument – The fine-tuning of the universe points to an intelligent Designer. — Scriptures tell us this intelligent designer is God.

Moral Argument – Objective moral values require a transcendent moral lawgiver. Scriptures tell us this moral lawgiver is God.

Are you well versed in these I've mentioned?

Digitmktguru:
"If God is love, why did He harden Pharaoh's heart in Exodus 9:12?"
i will be glad if you can give me biblical explanation to this?

The answer you seek for is meaningless if you don't even understand what what LOVE is.

1. Love is neither a feeling nor an emotion.
2. Love is the Sacrifice we make to beautify the Life of the other person at personal expense.

There is General Love for Others and there is a Personal Love for the Chosen.

John 3:16-19
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

Example:
You are expected to have a general love to other but have a personal love for your children or siblings.

In Conclusion
1. Part of Love is WARNING a person against the consequences of his ACTIONS as God warned Pharaoh several times.
2. Love is also allowing the Loved to face the consequences of their actions from them to learn. 3. Finally, Love is finding a solution to the consequences of the actions of our loved ones