₦airaland Forum

gohf:
see this one, since the day I rejected your invitation to where gothamcities calls a cult, your love hate towards me increase. You remind me of that woman with unclean spirit that kept following Paul

GothamCities:
So, you're not a member of that cult. Hahaha.

He holds the same views about Jesus as you do actually. The only difference is that you believe Jesus was a mere man while he believes Jesus is angel Michael. However, both you and Maxindhouse cannot deny that it was Jesus speaking here:

NRevelation 1:8,:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Who is speaking? The One Who is, Who was and Who is to come. The Almighty

1. God the Father is the One Who is. Jesus is also the One who is. That is to say the One who is existing right now. God the Father and Jesus currently exist. Both of them IS.

2. The One Who was, God the Father is not the One Who was. God NEVER was. He never ceased to exist. He always IS. Jesus is the One Who was. He died, and so He ceased to exist for 3 days. "...a little while you will see me no more ." At that time when Jesus died, He became the One Who was. The disciples saw Him no more. They even went a fishing.

3. God the Father is not the One to come. He's always here, we're not expecting Him to come at any time. He always is. GOD THE FATHER IS NEVER TO COME. Jesus is the One to come. The Coming King. The Almighty

So, who.is the Almighty? The One Who IS, Who WAS and Who is to come. The Lord Jesus. The Almighty.

You can see how it's all interwoven between the Father and the Son as it is in all scripture. This is because they're both the same entity who manifests differently.

If you think, Jesus is not God, this verse will definitely confuse you. You won't be able to explain it without errors. If you think otherwise, I challenge you to defend this verse as God the Father speaking and not Jesus.

Jesus is the One coming. And He ended His Revelation to John by saying "I come quickly..." Phew!

"Even so come, Lord Jesus. The Spirit and the Bride says come."

gohf:
see this one, since the day I rejected your invitation to where gothamcities calls a cult, your love hate towards me increase. You remind me of that woman with unclean spirit that kept following Paul

GothamCities:
I heard a Jehovah Witness (Janosky, I suppose) arguing that Jesus is an angel because Angels are messengers sent by God on errands. And since Jesus confessed that He was sent by God, then, He must be an angel. He inadvertently ignored the fact that God sends His Word. In Isaiah 55:11, God said 'My Word will not return until me void until it has accomplished what I sent it to do.' When Jesus accomplished the work God sent Him to do, He said on the cross "It is finished!" Psalm 107:20, God sends His Word and it heals them. Jesus, the Word of God went about healing all (Acts 10:38). John 1:1 says Jesus is the Word of God, not an angel. Revelation 19:12-13 says His name is "The Word of God", not angel Michael.

GothamCities:
Jesus Clearly Declared His Origin - A Shocker For Muslims And Jehovah Witnesses

Jehovah Witnesses have always claimed that Jesus is Angel Michael while the Muslims claim that Jesus is just a mere messenger like any other. However, while studying the Scriptures of recent, I discovered that Jesus actually declared His origin. Therefore, all these arguments about who Jesus is are practically unnecessary.

In a previous thread, I have showed from Malachi 5:2 that Jesus is from Everlasting according to the scriptures. That is to say, He is from the eternal past. He has no beginning. You can take a look at the thread here: https://www.nairaland.com/8308122/ot-verse-strongly-proves-jesus.

In this new thread, we are going to further establish the Divinity of Jesus from His own Words taken from John 16:27-28. After making my deap research on the verses, I took my time with Chatgpt and Meta AI to further clarify my findings. Hence, I would just allow the two AIs to speak on this thread because I have seen that so many are very much averse to the truth. They reject he truth when it is shown to them even in plain sight. I hope these haters of truth would find solace in arguing with AIs this time around. The AIs broke down the verses and provided in-depth explanations of the Greek words used by Jesus in John 16:27-28:

First, let us take a look at ChatGPT.

My Query: Let's take a look at John 16:27-28. I want to see the full meaning and import of Jesus' statements in that verse about Him coming forth from the Father. Examine the Greek words used in the sentences of these verses to see whether Jesus said He came forth from the Father in terms of Heaven as a location where the Father dwells or in terms of essence and origination from within the Father Himself.

Response from ChatGPT

John 16:27-28 states:

- 27 "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.'
- 28 "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father."

To fully grasp the meaning of Jesus' words, we need to examine the Greek text and analyze the key terms.

Greek Analysis of John 16:27-28

1. John 16:27 – "ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον"
- ἐκ (ek) – "out of," "from within," "proceeding from"
- τοῦ Θεοῦ (tou Theou) – "of God" or "from God"
- ἐξῆλθον (exēlthon) – "I came forth," "I went out"

2. John 16:28 – "ἐξῆλθον ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον"
- ἐξῆλθον (exēlthon) – "I came forth"
- ἐκ (ek) τοῦ Πατρός (tou Patros) – "out of the Father"
- καὶ ἐλήλυθα (kai elēlytha) – "and have come"
- εἰς τὸν κόσμον (eis ton kosmon) – "into the world"

3. John 16:28 (last part) – "πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα"**
- πάλιν (palin) – "again"
- ἀφίημι (aphiēmi) – "I leave"
- τὸν κόσμον (ton kosmon) – "the world"
- καὶ πορεύομαι (kai poreuomai) – "and I go"
- πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα (pros ton Patera) – "to the Father"

Interpretation of Jesus' Words

1. "I came forth from the Father" – A Statement of Divine Origin?
- The use of ἐκ τοῦ Πατρός (ek tou Patros, "out of the Father" in John 16:28 strongly implies that Jesus is speaking of something more than just a change in location.

- The preposition ἐκ (ek) typically denotes origin, source, or derivation from within something, rather than merely departure from a place.

- This suggests that Jesus is referring to an ontological or essential coming forth from the Father rather than merely stating that He came from a place called Heaven.

2. Comparison with John 8:42 – "I proceeded forth and came from God
- In John 8:42, Jesus says, ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον καὶ ἥκω", meaning "I came forth from God and have come."

- The verb ἐξῆλθον (exēlthon) is used again, as in John 16:27-28, reinforcing the idea of proceeding out of God's very being, not merely coming from a location.

3. Theological Implication – Eternal Generation of the Son
- The Greek phrase ἐκ τοῦ Πατρός aligns with the doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son in classical Christian theology.

- This doctrine teaches that the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, meaning He derives His divine essence from the Father but was never created.

- This aligns with John 1:1-2, where it is said that "the Word was with God, and the Word was God," and John 1:14, "the Word became flesh."

4. "I leave the world and go to the Father" – Speaking of His Ascension
- The second part of John 16:28, "I leave the world and go to the Father, refers to His physical return to the Father through His ascension after completing His work on earth.

- Here, "πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα" (pros ton Patera, "to the Father" suggests movement toward a person rather than emphasizing origin.

Conclusion: Location or Essence?
- The use of ἐκ (ek) in "ἐξῆλθον ἐκ τοῦ Πατρός" suggests that Jesus is emphasizing His eternal relationship to the Father rather than simply stating that He came from Heaven as a location.

- The language fits within the larger Johannine theme of Jesus being the eternal Son who is of the same essence as the Father (John 1:1, John 10:30).

- Therefore, Jesus' statement in John 16:28 is not just about geographical departure from Heaven but about His divine origin from the Father Himself.

Above are the words of ChatGPT quoted verbatim. AI is the go-to-tool for in-depth research and information gathering even in Academia nowadays. If you disparage the information provided by AI simply because it doesn't align with your doctrines, you're simply ignorant. Now, check the next post for responses on the same topic from Meta AI.

Confused Trinitarian, from whom did God the Father come out ?

Gotham, from whom did you come out?
Gotham from whom did Jesus come out?

Gotham came out from his parents.
Jesus came out from his Father.

God his Father has no origin.
Gotham, please allow your brain to function nau.
Trinity delusion hold you down real bad.

Truthseeker10:
But you said when they saw Jesus, they saw the father son and holy spirit simultaneously. So why are you showing me scriptures where the holy spirit is being sent? Why the confusion?

Janosky:

32. aggelos ►
Strong's Lexicon
aggelos: Angel, messenger
Original Word: ἄγγελος
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aggelos
Pronunciation: ANG-gel-os
Phonetic Spelling: (ang'-el-os)
Definition: Angel, messenger
Meaning: a messenger, generally a (supernatural) messenger from God, an angel, conveying news or behests from God to men.


Word Origin: Derived from the root ἀγγέλλω (aggellō), meaning "to announce" or "to bring tidings."

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H4397 (מַלְאָךְ, mal'ak): Often translated as "angel" or "messenger," used in the Old Testament to describe both divine and human messengers.

Usage: In the New Testament, "aggelos" primarily refers to a supernatural being sent by God to deliver messages, execute His will, or provide guidance and protection to humans. It can also refer to human messengers in certain contexts
John 7:16 , Jesus Christ is an angel sent to deliver God's messages, execute his Father's will and provide guidance for believers

* Gothamcities, STOP deceiving yourself.
You are TWISTING Isaiah 55:11, "my word that proceeds from my mouth" (@ Isaiah 55:11 is not a being).
Confused Trinitarian, LYING miscreant.
.

Janosky:

Confused Trinitarian, from whom did God the Father come out ?

Gotham, from whom did you come out?
Gotham from whom did Jesus come out?

Gotham came out from his parents.
Jesus came out from his Father.

God his Father has no origin.
Gotham, please allow your brain to function nau.
Trinity delusion hold you down real bad.

Janosky:
Trinity put Gotham brain on jam lock.

GothamCities:
engage me.

Janosky:

32. aggelos ►
Strong's Lexicon
aggelos: Angel, messenger
Original Word: ἄγγελος
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aggelos
Pronunciation: ANG-gel-os
Phonetic Spelling: (ang'-el-os)
Definition: Angel, messenger
Meaning: a messenger, generally a (supernatural) messenger from God, an angel, conveying news or behests from God to men.


Word Origin: Derived from the root ἀγγέλλω (aggellō), meaning "to announce" or "to bring tidings."

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H4397 (מַלְאָךְ, mal'ak): Often translated as "angel" or "messenger," used in the Old Testament to describe both divine and human messengers.

Usage: In the New Testament, "aggelos" primarily refers to a supernatural being sent by God to deliver messages, execute His will, or provide guidance and protection to humans. It can also refer to human messengers in certain contexts
John 7:16 , Jesus Christ is an angel sent to deliver God's messages, execute his Father's will and provide guidance for believers

* Gothamcities, STOP deceiving yourself.
You are TWISTING Isaiah 55:11, "my word that proceeds from my mouth" (@ Isaiah 55:11 is not a being).
Confused Trinitarian, LYING miscreant.
.

Gabrielshow24:
I didn't want to comment but your false equivocation is alarming.

You are conflating two things together, the literal definition, messenger, with another - a set of beings.

Simple reasoning is enough to show that everyone is a messenger of God, even the prophets of old all had one message or the other from God to deliver. Hence it doesn't diminish Jesus role of bringing a message from God.

But you using the first definition to allude that he is one of the set of beings is rather alarming.

You are using the fact that the word itself has multiple meanings and you are switching between them to make an egregious point.

Once again think wisely before you respond.

Oga, I challenge you to bring any chapter or verse evidence from your Bible where Jehovah God was sent to deliver message(s).
In the spiritual realm, the Supreme Being can not be sent to any errand or deliver message. Psalms 110:1 but Lord Jesus did so because Jesus is inferior to Jehovah God his Father.
Oga receive sense now & allow your brain to function.

Isaiah 6:8, Jehovah God said:
"Whom shall I send?"

Isaiah 6:8 & John 5:37, Jehovah God is not an angel.
Jesus Christ is an angel, John 7:16 is proof, John 14:24 is another proof, Jehovah our Father sent his messenger, Jesus Christ.

Oga, you are not wise.

GothamCities:
Irrelevant questions.

.

GothamCities:
Jesus said He came out from within (exelthron tou patros) the Father, and not from among the angels. Just prove that these Greek words don't mean what I said they mean. I have a lot for you, you can go through the thread or better still, engage me.

Janosky:
Trinity put Gotham brain on jam lock.

Janosky:

Oga, I challenge you to bring any chapter or verse evidence from your Bible where Jehovah God was sent to deliver message(s).
In the spiritual realm, the Supreme Being can not be sent to any errand or deliver message. Psalms 110:1 but Lord Jesus did so because Jesus is inferior to Jehovah God his Father.
Oga receive sense now & allow your brain to function.

Isaiah 6:8, Jehovah God said:
"Whom shall I send?"

Isaiah 6:8 & John 5:37, Jehovah God is not an angel.
Jesus Christ is an angel, John 7:16 is proof, John 14:24 is another proof, Jehovah our Father sent his messenger, Jesus Christ.

Oga, you are not wise.

Janosky:
Very relevant question exposing your delusion.
Confused Trinitarian, from whom did God the Father come out ?
Answer this question & risks exposure of your false doctrine, because God the Father has no origin.
Therefore, God the Father is the origin of Jesus existence, John 5:26 without the Father, Jesus has no life.



Confused Trinitarian,is there any Greek word "within" @ John chapter 16 you quoted?
Let me ask you this question again:
God the Father came out of whom?

All angels came from God the Father.
You don't want to allow your brain to function.

GothamCities:
May God open your eyes. You ignore the Word to cling to doctrines of men. Congratulations to you.

Janosky:
"God opened your eyes", pls Answer the questions:

* God the Father came out of whom?

* Which spirit sent by God did not come from God the Father?

Confused Trinitarian deceiving himself and exposing his folly.

Gabrielshow24:
You have still not answered my question.

Or maybe you lack comprehension?

Gabrielshow24:
Assess the logical implications of your statements before spewing them out.

You still prove the conflation I talked about.

Appealing to the different meanings of one word.

Gabrielshow24:
Maybe I should rephrase it for your sake.
Is Jesus a messenger, Angel, because he was sent of God; Although being the word of God or he is just a part of a set of beings?

Once again think wisely 🙃

Janosky:
You yourself lack comprehension.
You don't want your brain to function with the logical evidence in your own Bible.



32. aggelos ►
Strong's Lexicon
aggelos: Angel, messenger
Original Word: ἄγγελος
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine

Transliteration: aggelos
Pronunciation: ANG-gel-os
Phonetic Spelling: (ang'-el-os)
Definition
: Angel, messenger
Meaning: a messenger, generally a (supernatural) messenger from God, an angel, conveying news or behests from God to men.


Word Origin: Derived from the root ἀγγέλλω (aggellō), meaning "to announce" or "to bring tidings."

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H4397 (מַלְאָךְ, mal'ak): Often translated as "angel" or "messenger," used in the Old Testament to describe both divine and human messengers.

Usage: In the New Testament, "aggelos" primarily refers to a supernatural being sent by God to deliver messages, execute His will, or provide guidance and protection to humans.

According to the Greek lexicon meaning of aggelos (angel).
Oga,is Jesus Christ a supernatural being sent by God to deliver messages?

Please Allow your brain to function nau.




* Jesus is angel because he was sent of God/ sent by God.
* "Although being the word of God meaning that "Jesus speaks the word of the Father (Yahweh) who sent me (Jesus)."

Jesus Christ is an angel of Yahweh his LORD/Father just as other angels are angels of Yahweh.


Hebrew 1:5 is a copy of 2 Samuel 7:14 & Psalm 2:7 applied to King Solomon.
Hebrew 1:5, Hebrew 5:5, Psalm 2:7 & 2 Samuel 7:14, mean the Glory & Honor given to Jesus/king Solomon above their fellows.
Your fellow Trinitarians knows Jesus is angel of the LORD Yahweh.
Screenshot evidence.
.

GothamCities:
There's no beginning, the concept of beginning is earthly. For man to understand , God Himself is the Beginning. In actual really, what we have is Eternity.



The nomenclature does not matter. What matters is who your Marduk is. If he's the universe, then, he's not God.

Truthseeker10:
🤣🤣🤣men are inside God. Did you not tell me that it is God that is expressing himself through people?

sonmvayina:
See my explanation up there...maybe you will learn a thing or two. Marduk is same as the Jewish God. He is the same creator of the universe. Just with a different name

GothamCities:
Which tribe called God Marduk?

If he's the universe, he's not God.

sonmvayina:
Yes...think, you are close to the diamond.

See the creation of man in Genesis...

Truthseeker10:
So if God is expressing himself through men, is he not the one raping women and killing innocent children?

sonmvayina:
. You can say so. These are all the limitations of a human being and the freedom of choice that goes with it. But there are also some of us who are good and righteous too..

Truthseeker10:
So your God is actually a rapist. Thank you.

Truthseeker10:
So your God is actually a rapist. Thank you.

Gabrielshow24:
Like I said, what you have done is play on the interpretation/meaning of the word "angel".

thank God, you said Jesus is the word of God else it would have been far worse for you.

You haven't yet understood the conflation you are committing, let me make it clear to you.

Imagine replacing the term "angel" with "alien".

And I ask you, are you an Alien?

What exactly do you think I am asking you for?
Now once again, I ask of you, the verses you showed above what exactly were they conveying?

Is Jesus an angel because that's the literal 🤨 interpretation of messenger or part of a set of heavenly beings?

"Also just as other Angels are angels" is rather vague.

Because as far as semantics is concerned, the term "is rather vague"; it can be made to fit anything.

Biblical examples in revelation seem to call men angels as regards writing to the angels of the seven churches.

Also you and I are also messengers of God.
Except you define a boundary you can fit a square into a circle.

Think wisely and set your reply;
Remember we are using your standard!

GothamCities:
Janosky, take a look at these direct words of Jesus. May God open your eyes!

Revelation 22:12-13

“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. [b]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Revelation 1:7-8
“Look, He is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see Him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen. “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, THE ALMIGHTY .”

Can you see? Jesus calls Himself The Almighty. It will shock you on that day!