ThePanther:
Very good analysis and article. JWs are conditioned mentally as never wrong on anything. If its wrong, just wait on Jehovah and it will be cleared by their leaders eventually. The only way to get them thinking is if they start to realize the organization and its leaders may not be representing God, thats when they start re-examining all their beliefs objectively. All along, they hv bn impressed with bible quotes but in reality the leaders are just citing selected scriptures to fit their narrrative. If anyone hasnt already realized, the same text from a scripture can be interpreted several ways by different christians and it will all seem legit. JW doctrine are simply their own interpretations of the Bible using selected scriptures and ignoring the ones that contradict them. If u are a JW, check jwfacts.com and see if u can counteract the points made.

Crysthaniel:
Explain Luke 7:28 please

Maximus69:
Simple! John the Baptist is not or will not be in the kingdom of heaven,so he will be in hellfire!
But wait a minute, Jesus said 'of all those born of by women,there is no PROPHET greater than John the Baptist'! Could Jesus' statement have meant that all the prophets before John are going to hellfire

rottennaija:
Ready for a game of Bible ping-pong?

When any of their unorthodox beliefs come up for discussion, Jehovah's Witnesses will say, "I believe this because the Bible says [paraphrase of verse] at [chapter and verse citation]," while a more accurate response would have been, "I believe this because the Watchtower Society teaches us that this is what the Bible says."

Unfortunately, however, this is a point where most Christians believe Jehovah's Witnesses, as evidenced by the Christian's typical response consisting of Bible verses to refute the JW doctrine in question.*

So a typical Christian-vs.-JW encounter resembles a game of Bible ping-pong or table-tennis. The Christian comes up with a verse of Scripture refuting a JW doctrine, and the Witness responds with one of his or her favorite "proof" texts. The Christian responds with another verse, and the JW does likewise. Bible verses fly back and forth across the table until both parties, sweaty and exhausted, call a halt to the game.

A re-match the following week yields similar results. Even if the Christian manages to score more points, the JW is still a JW, and the Christian feels like giving up on JWs, concluding that it is pointless to get into a conversation with them.

In a sense, that conclusion is correct -- in the same sense that the primitive tribesman finally concludes that it is pointless to pour more cold water on the hot radiator in the apartment he is visiting.

In both cases failure is attributable to misdirected efforts. Those efforts might have succeeded if they had been aimed at the proper target.

Knocking down a Jehovah's Witness's belief system is similar to chopping down a tree. The woodsman who takes aim at the biggest and brightest leaves can swing his axe all day without results. So it is with the Christian who takes aim at prominent JW doctrines and starts swinging.

Witness beliefs on theology and the afterlife are attractive targets for Christians who know what the Bible really says on these matters. But those erroneous beliefs are upheld by the Watchtower Society, just as the leaves and branches are held aloft by the tree trunk.

Until the woodsman takes aim at the trunk, he swings his axe in vain. Likewise with the Christian who gets into debates with JWs over doctrine.

Rather than belabor the point, I'll conclude with a real-life example -- a close look at what actually happens when you show a JW a Bible verse that refutes JW beliefs:

Two ladies called at my door with Watchtower and Awake! magazines in their hands. I let the one taking the lead go ahead with her presentation for a minute or two, rejected her offer of the magazines, but then asked if she could answer a question for me before she left. I asked,

"Is it true that you people believe the 'great crowd' of believers will be rewarded with life on earth forever instead of going to heaven? Can you show me in the Bible where it mentions this 'great crowd.'"

"Yes," she replied, promptly opening her New World Translation, as I knew she would, to Revelation 7:9, where she read, "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, and there were palm branches in their hands."

When I showed her the context and pointed out that the "great crowd" is pictured there "standing before the throne" of God in heaven, rather than on earth, she answered that all the earth stands before God's throne.

So I had her turn over a few pages to Revelation, chapter 19, which also speaks of the "great crowd," and asked her to read the first verse: "After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said, 'Praise Jah, you people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God.'"

"So, where is the 'great crowd'?" I asked.

"On earth," was her answer.

"Please read it again," I asked.

This time I stopped her after she read the word heaven and asked again where the verse located the "great crowd." "On earth," was still her reply.

"What was that last word you read?" I asked.

"It says 'heaven'," she finally admitted, "but the 'great crowd' is on earth. You don't understand," she went on, "we have men at our headquarters in Brooklyn, New York, who explain the Bible to us. And they can prove that the 'great crowd' is on earth; I just can't explain it that well."

There it is! A Jehovah's Witness can look at the word 'heaven' in the Bible and see 'earth' instead -- because that is what the Watchtower Society teaches.

It is as if JWs look at the Bible through Watchtower-tinted glasses that color the meaning of everything they read.

The same mental mechanism kicks in whether the topic is the nature of God, the condition of the dead, the future hope of Christians, or any other subject the Witness has been drilled on repetitively at Kingdom Hall meetings and in the pages of Watchtower publications.

But this does not mean that discussions with JWs are doomed to failure. Success is possible if you treat the disease rather than the symptoms, if you pour the water on the furnace rather than on the radiator, if you swing the axe at the trunk of the tree rather than at the leaves. Chop through the trunk, and the whole tree will come down -- including all the brightly colored leaves that first caught your attention.

MORE IMPORTANT ARTICLES WILL BE FOUND BELOW

https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/watchtower-scandal.php

https://jwinform.com/2016/02/02/a-question-that-works-with-jehovahs-witnesses/

https://jwinform.com/2017/07/18/why-cant-i-reach-a-jehovahs-witness/


*JWs claim that they base their beliefs on the Bible. This is not true. (They really base their beliefs on instructions from Watchtower headquarters.) So, when Christians respond with Bible verses to refute the JW beliefs, this may indicate that Christians take JWs at their word -- that they base their beliefs on the Bible. Yes, it is important to answer them from the Bible. But progress usually comes only after proving that the Watchtower Society is unreliable and not to be trusted. Before a JW sees evidence of the Watchtower Society's false prophecies and back-and-forth doctrinal changes, he or she will usually accept the Watchtower's interpretation of Bible verses, rather than yours, because JWs see the Society as God's appointed spokesman.

Maximus69:
Jesus said 'Wisdom is JUSTIFIED by all her children'! Luke 7:35
If those you're referring to as Christians are truly followers of that great teacher from Nazareth,who sent his disciples to go and meet people for scriptural enlightenment. How come they've not gotten the boldness and charisma to go out and speak with people like the JWs are known to be doing globally?
Well, the Bible did say that God ORIGINALLY purposed that humans live on earth FOREVER! Psalms 37:29,115:16
His words will NEVER fail even if Adam failed, Adam's descendants will forever inherit the earth! Isaiah 55:11
Don't forget that the earth is God's footstool [Isaiah 66:1,Matthew 5:35] so if 144,00 are standing on mount zion and uncountable ones are also standing before his throne. Revelations 7:4,14:1
It is understandable that both the 144,000 and the great crowd are logically standing as one flock before the one who owns the heaven and earth! John 10:16
The voice of the great crowd from heaven is NOT the same as those DWELLING on the earth! Revelations 14:6 compared to 19:1
Remember that those humans taken to dwell heaven are going to replace those angels sent out from heaven! That is why Jesus said 'in my father's house,there are many mansions'. John 14:2-4
Of course Jesus' word PREPARE is clear indication that the place is there already but the occupants are the ones to be evicted,for new intake! Revelations 12:7-9
The new occupants qualified to live in houses where angels lived before because they remained obedient to the king even when doing so means death! Revelations 12:11
So the 144,000 will only make an addition to countless obedient intelligent spirit beings[angels] who are always singing and praising the most high God! Thus there will also be another great crowd of Praisers in heaven as it has always being! Psalm 103:20 compared to Luke 2:13,14
God gave the earth to humans who will live in the FLESH and do everything that relates to the FLESH like
Building houses, Marrying and bearing children, Taking care of all other creatures while the animal will no more harm one another, Planting of vineyards as in CULTIVATING the earth just as the first man was given the same assignment! Isaiah 65:21-25 compared to Genesis 2:15
But those going to heaven will be our rulers with Christ so the will neither get married nor have kids because they'll live NOT in the flesh like us but as angels! Luke 20:35,36
Sorry my friend, Our Master taught us so many things and if you aren't humble enough to learn from us, you'll continue to agitate with those who have listened to us. While they'll keep telling you 'we have heard from them and we're sure they have the divine wisdom,though we might not be able to explain everything they taught us but if you listen carefully you too will know for sure that there are Jesus' brothers in our midst teaching us!' Matthew 25:40

rottennaija:


Let me assume, about the bolded that 144000 angels have been or will be sent away from heaven. Isn't that so? Even watchtower couldn't come up with such imaginary description in its more than 100 years of existence. Heck, even Bible writers couldn't imagine it. It's impressive.

Or it is a new cherished understanding from the organization? How about the 24 elders? There must be really palatable mansions they occupy in heaven. That reminds me, which one will Abraham, Isaac and Jacob occupy? Because I remember Jesus mentioning them reclining in the heaven. (mt 8:11)

Maximus69:
The GB of the Organization guides the followers to streams of Knowledge and Wisdom not LORD over their faith!
So each member could sum up what is happening after being guided by the teacher or teachers. Remember Jesus asked his disciples 'what is the people's conclusion about him' [Matthew 16:13] and he never declared his personality before then!
Abraham,Isaac and Jacob are not literally going to be in heaven since there has never been born one greater than John [baptist] before then while John is not qualified to be there! Luke 7:28
Unlike your friends assertion, JWs are guided to streams of living waters by the Lamb and his 144,000 brothers,so if any of them is getting it wrong he/she is lovingly corrected. The shepherds guide the sheep to the greener pastures NOT cut the grasses for God's sheep!

Maximus69:
The GB of the Organization guides the followers to streams of Knowledge and Wisdom not LORD over their faith!
So each member could sum up what is happening after being guided by the teacher or teachers. Remember Jesus asked his disciples 'what is the people's conclusion about him' [Matthew 16:13] and he never declared his personality before then!

Abraham,Isaac and Jacob are not literally going to be in heaven since there has never been born one greater than John [baptist] before then while John is not qualified to be there! Luke 7:28
Unlike your friends assertion, JWs are guided to streams of living waters by the Lamb and his 144,000 brothers,so if any of them is getting it wrong he/she is lovingly corrected. The shepherds guide the sheep to the greener pastures NOT cut the grasses for God's sheep!

rottennaija:


It is either Jesus, the lamb is the one guiding his followers to streams of knowledge and wisdom or the GB is. It cannot be both.

Secondly, if it mt 8:11 is not literal, who decided it wasn't? Was it Jesus or the GB of Jws? In He 11:15,16, the apostle Paul mentioned concerning those ancient servants of God, men of faith that God has prepared a city for them in heaven?

Specifically! Which part of Jesus words in Mr 8:11 that shows those words are not literal? Also, does Lu 7:28 mean that there are categories of people in heaven? Some least, other higher up?

Address this questions, as I wait patiently for your response.

alBHAGDADI:


Instead of depending on the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth, you guys are depending on GB.

John 16:13 (KJV)
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


Who told you John the Baptist won't be in heaven? Is that how you see the passage below?

Luke 7:28 King James Version (KJV)
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

The passage doesn't say John won't be in heaven, it only says that those who will be least in the kingdom of heaven will be greater than him. Jesus even mentioned those who will be least in the kingdom of heaven and they are humans, which debunks your claim that humans won't go to heaven.

Mathew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach
them , the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Maximus69:
If you feel that you're truly a Christian,please go and do the work Jesus commissioned in the midst of those having the same mindset as you do! Romans 15:5,6 1Corinthians 1:10 Ephesians 4:3 Philippians 2:2
So that the whole world could see that you truly belong to the group formed by the greatest teacher and reformer Jesus!
He said a Kingdom divided against itself will not stand,so i don't think such a person will be happy to see his own followers contradicting themselves and having serious conflicts amongst themselve! John 13:34,35 17:14-16
Therefore if you don't agree that the united, happy, zealous and industrious global organization of Jehovah's Witnesses are the one and only true Christians today,please go and worship wherever you're pleased!

alBHAGDADI:


Clearly, you couldn't address my post because it is the truth which stands above lies. I now wonder who asked you to tell me about doing the work of Christ and being the only true Christians.

Maximus69:
Jesus is the great teacher who organised his group of followers into two fractions. Twelve he called Apostles and the rest are disciples,it's out of his numerous disciples that he chose the twelve and instructed them to FEED his sheep! John 21:15-17 compared to Act 15:28
So as the great shepherd Jesus chose some of his disciples and made them shepherds as well[Ephesians 4:11] in one of his illustrations he explained that during the end time most supposed self assumed christians would find it difficult to IDENTIFY these group that he called my brothers[born again disciples] who are working hard to spread the goodnews of God's kingdom. Those who identified them will ASSIST them in many ways and Jesus will acknowledge such ones as rendering the help to himself,but to those who failed to identify them Jesus will tell such ones 'go away from me'! Matthew 25:31-46
So the worldwide brotherhood of JWs recognised these little group as our Governing Body,we see them as those brothers of Jesus that needed assistance in reaching the most distant part of the earth. Because they're based in the US a country where freedom of worship flourishes, they can give instructions on what to do and where the need is greater. Satan can easily catch them if they must go to all the nations but because over 8m are supporting them in the work Satan finds it difficult to arrest them and stop the work!
Regarding Jesus' words,remember that in the first century Jesus ONLY explains the meaning of his illustrations to his closest confidants! Matthew 13:10,11
The REAL Jesus has not changed!
Whoever wish to learn from him must IDENTIFY his modern day closest confidants otherwise what you will continue to see is confusion amongst those claiming Christians!
At Hebrew 11:15,16 Paul was talking about those who received the fulfilment of the promise but notice that those who lived before Jesus aren't part of that arrangement! Hebrew 11:13
This means that their rulership will be a unique form of government that is not of this world,so they count themselves as TEMPORARY residents under human rulers who had not received any training from the Prince of peace!
As for Luke 7:28, Jesus is saying that the arrangement to anoint kings and priests who will reign with him in heaven wasn't commissioned before John died,so he is not going to partake in that arrangement. Remember that ONLY the born again Christians will go and rule with Jesus in heaven and the first set took place at Pentecost 33ce!

Maximus69:

rottennaija:


It's easy to be to twist everything in the middle of many words. You have not answered any of the questions I asked. So, let's go back to them...

It is either Jesus, the lamb is the one guiding his followers to streams of knowledge and wisdom or the GB is. It cannot be both.

Secondly, if it mt 8:11 is not literal, who decided it wasn't? Which part of Jesus words shows it to be figurative in Mt 8:11? In He 11:15,16, the apostle Paul mentioned concerning those ancient servants of God, men of faith that God has prepared a city for them in heaven? Which part of his words there are figurative? Which part says they were not in the said arrangement?

Specifically! Which part of Jesus words in Mr 8:11 that shows those words are not literal? Also, does Lu 7:28 mean that there are categories of people in heaven? Some least, other higher up?

Which part of Matthew 25:31-46 introduces the concept of supporting this important group called christ brothers so that Satan will not catch them while preaching?

Address this questions, and stop beating around the bush

Maximus69:
(1)Jesus is a master planner when it comes to organizing. It is both Jesus and his brothers that's leading obedient individuals[SHEEP] to streams of living water. So the problem this generation is having today is how to identify the modern day Jesus' brothers! The GB of JWs is serving that purpose today so it's either you take it or leave it.
(2)@ Matthew 8:11 the name Abraham, Isaac and Jacob should have been literal ONLY if God's purpose is for faithful individuals to live in heaven.
Consider what the word[Jesus] passed unto ancient writers of the scriptures, Elijah is to come and prepare the way for the Messiah,so Israelites were expecting Elijah in person and when Elijah never came many concluded that Jesus couldn't have being the real Messiah not until Jesus himself explained that John the baptist has fulfilled that purpose to his CLOSEST confidants,they were also confused about the scriptures! Mark 9:11 compared to Malachi 4:5,6
Let me assure you Sir that Christianity is not that cheap for every Dick and Harry to grasp because of anxieties of life[Matthew 13:3-23] so Jesus arranged that those who are able to understand it FIRST should help other faithful individuals. John 21:15-19
If you're doubting that the GB of JWs aren't qualified to serve that purpose, well over 8m individuals are faithfully HOLDING unto them[Zechariah 8:23] and a lot has been accomplished by this global group, of course they give the glory to Jehovah and Jesus. That's why the faces or names of our leaders are not known in the public. If you are not a dedicated member or a diehard critic you can't identify those taking the lead in the organization, unlike other religious organizations whose leaders are well recognized by everyone!
Take it or leave it, heaven is not where God planned for people to live but earth, and this will be accomplished no matter what happens! Isaiah 55:11
Jesus has served the purpose the true God required of him, faithful ones have served the purpose God anointed them with his holy spirit and modern day servants of God have been revealed. It's left to obedient persons to take advantage of this loving provision to gain Salvation! Revelation 22:17

TATIME:
Hmmmmmmmmmmm God bless you Maximus for this wonderful explanation!
No matter how easy it is for FAITHFUL people to notice all what you've analysed, FAITHLESS individuals will continue to demand for SIGNS even after reading Jesus' word in the Bible that 'no sign will be given unless that of Jonah'
Jonah was sent to Nineveh, the people knew nothing about God's laws, Jonah performed NO signs just his words, what Jonah declared didn't happen until a long time when Jonah is no more!
Jehovah's Witnesses began this work around 1919, they went to people from all nations who never knew what the Bible REALLY teach, they performed NO signs but just clear teaching that could be explained by all their members, what they declared didn't happen as expected and many of those first set are dead now, many people from the most distant part of the earth are joining the organization despite opposition from all sides!
If they can't understand this simple logic,surely there is nothing you can say to help them reason. Sincere and honest hearted individuals will reason and join in washing their robes in the blood of the lamb! Revelations 7:14 compared to Daniel 12:9,10
You're blessed Maximus! I'll call you later in the day.

Maximus69:
Yes! Yes!! Yes!!! Tatime.
It's true!!!
Jonah spent three days imprisoned in the belly of the fish because he feared going to face pagan inhabitants of Nineveh. Jehovah's Witnesses organization also spent years inside spiritual prison because they feared going to face the people of all the nations! But God has blessed their second coming effort just as he blessed Jonah's work, and today in preparation for the return of Jesus they've gathered over 8m from all tribes of the earth making them subjects of God's kingdom!
Hmmm!

rottennaija:


Below it the picture of those Jehovah's Witnesses believed God is using to lead people today. Are these these those you refer to the faithful and discreet slave?

Maximus69:
Of course Sir, they are for sure!
Though these ones succeeded those who started the work of helping God's people out of spiritual bondage to the land of promise,just as Joshua succeeded Moses who started the work and led God's people to Canaan!
So for you to have gotten this,surely you're once a dedicated member or a diehard critic of this organization. Because common people even millions studying the Bible with JWs don't know their faces not to talk of knowing each of them by name. It took me more than six month of thorough study with their followers before i could start identifying these men!

rottennaija:


When did Jesus appoint them as faithful and discreet slave?

Maximus69:
Sir,
When Jesus was here IN THE FLESH he had countless disciples out of which he appointed twelve as Apostles. Mark 3:14
Nobody knew the date Jesus selected those 12 till today, many faithful individuals who joined them as followers later and continued to remain obedient to these men doing the WORK never requested which DATE the Messiah chose those serving as Apostles!
He promised that when Satan has turned everything on earth upside down in order to confuse people[Revelation 12:12] a faithful and discreet slave will surface on earth FEEDING sheeplike ones at the proper times!
I am sorry Sir, my main concern is not about the precise TIME Jesus appointed the faithful and discreet slave but WHO ARE THOSE FULFILLING THAT PURPOSE TODAY? Matthew 24:45
Jesus said 'where the carcass is,there the eagles will gather'! Matthew 24:28
Eagles always targets food,so sincere and honest hearted individuals today are gathering from all the corners of the earth to feed while the faithful and discreet slave are doing their work!
If you want to fully grasp all of these, you should try to be neutral in judging where the truth is, but if you feel you've known it well try and see if there is any religious group that has succeeded in accomplishing half of what these men have done! Critics are demanding and emphasizing on SIGNS like some kind of miracles from these men but remember Jesus' words! Mark 8:12

rottennaija:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/9159726_img20190411072804_jpegbe8d595841387ec7b8dc502633b53836

Ok. They said they were appointed as faith and discreet slaves in 1919. Agreed?

Maximus69:
Disagree!

rottennaija:


That the faithful and discreet slave of Jws were appointed in 1919? You disagree?

Maximus69:
Will prefer you to keep meditating on that assumption or look critically into the achievement of the group?
Well that is part of their ASSUMPTIONS and they're prone to errors, so i don't hang on the TIME they ASSUME this happened since the one APPOINTING is a spirit being! 1Corinthians 15:45
A sincere and honest person shouldn't expect imperfect humans to get every dealing with a spirit being so perfectly,but there will be evidences pointing to the fact that the spirit is dealing with them!
When Jesus was here in the flesh it is not everything he said that his followers could grasp yet he kept working with them. Even when he left for heaven and told them he's with them always (in spirit) they still made mistakes in organizational directions because they're not perfect!
So i don't expect 100% performance from any group of persons that God's holy spirit is directing, in fact the Bible NEVER recorded such 100% performance from any of ancient servants of this same God so why should that be my concern now? Therefore i will be the most stupid person to be expecting such now after reading and meditating prayerfully on what was recorded in the Bible!
Jesus NEVER expected perfection from his followers neither did he taught that they'll become perfect in this dispensation. He only gave them a job to do and explains what will show that they're performing up to EXPECTATION!

Maximus69:
Will you prefer to keep meditating on that assumption or look critically into the achievement of the group?
Well that is part of their ASSUMPTIONS and they're prone to errors, so i don't hang on the TIME they ASSUME this happened since the one APPOINTING is a spirit being! 1Corinthians 15:45
A sincere and honest person shouldn't expect imperfect humans to get every dealing with a spirit being so perfectly,but there will be evidences pointing to the fact that the spirit is dealing with them!
When Jesus was here in the flesh it is not everything he said that his followers could grasp yet he kept working with them. Even when he left for heaven and told them he's with them always (in spirit) they still made mistakes in organizational directions because they're not perfect!
So i don't expect 100% performance from any group of persons that God's holy spirit is directing, in fact the Bible NEVER recorded such 100% performance from any of ancient servants of this same God so why should that be my concern now? Therefore i will be the most stupid person to be expecting such now after reading and meditating prayerfully on what was recorded in the Bible!
Jesus NEVER expected perfection from his followers neither did he taught that they'll become perfect in this dispensation. He only gave them a job to do and explains what will show that they're performing up to EXPECTATION!

TATIME:
Hmmmmmmmmmm,
I wonder why most people don't think straight!
Just imagine this one, all he's after is the mistakes of the so called faithful and discreet slave!
Instead of thinking about what could have helped them achieve so much within just a centuries when some other religious groups have been around for more than a millennium and others thousands of years without anything tangible to offer as Christ's followers or worshipers of the true God!
Well thanks Maximus for showing him that he had no excuses for rejecting the FAITHFUL and DISCREET slave of the one and only true God!

rottennaija:
Ready for a game of Bible ping-pong?

When any of their unorthodox beliefs come up for discussion, Jehovah's Witnesses will say, "I believe this because the Bible says [paraphrase of verse] at [chapter and verse citation]," while a more accurate response would have been, "I believe this because this ...........