₦airaland Forum

gohf:
there are two translations of psalm 8:5, the Septuagint which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew text which was popular at that time and the Masoretic text, which has the term me-elohim. So it isn't about the author of Hebrew correctly the scripture but teaching based on what they themselves have been taught. For example the author places the altar of incense at the most holy place instead of the holy place

Though the question was not directed to you but I respect your input. But you did not anstmy question? Was 'elohim' in Psalm 8:5 the same as 'angelos' in Hebrews? I believe it's a straight forward question.

immaculatesense:
So, if you know me, you will know I rarely talk and I don't like back and forth. I have Hebrew and Greek scriptures. I don't like picking errors, but I rather ask questions. According to your rebuttal in your first paragraph, just two quick questions. (1) Verse 1. Why were the 'gods' called an 'heavenly court' if they are not heavenly beings? (2) Verse 6. Why were the 'gods' referred to as the 'chikdren of the Most High' if they were not heavenly beings?
On your second paragraph. It is true that angels do not refer to themselves as 'elohim' except in the case of Moses, but that aside. If that is your point, it can be used against you by those who do not believe that Jesus is God. Because Jesus never referred to himself as 'theos"- god. Not even 'son of god". He humbling calls himself 'the son of man' and messenger of god.
John 17:3
[3]And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.
But we know that he is god (divine/deity).
Thanks.

Is this a response to me writing, "Psalm 82 isn't the acknowledgement of gods which the Torah rejects..."? Or is it an error?
Now for your question
"Why were the 'gods' called an 'heavenly court' if they are not heavenly beings?" Not sure from what translation you are asking this question but it should be about Psalm 82:1 right?
But how I am supposed to tell you why an English translator translates the Hebrew the way they did when I am not them?

Now verse 6, I said gods you are and children of the Most High you all are, verse 7 but like men you shall die...


That verse 6 wasn't a commendation but a rebuke. You claim to be gods but you are all my children, both Satan, Lucifer and all of them, who claim to be gods who are being judged in Psalm 82 in God's congregation, did you read the previous verses before verse 6?

You ask if they were heavenly beings, is it because I said even men claimed to be gods? Was that a lie? Dont men as well as false entities claim to be God?

I do not know what you mean by except in the case of Moses, or was there an angel who claimed to be God to Moses? Or are you calling the burning bush God or what?

You claim something can be used against me, how can that be when there is no record of such, of an angel of God calling themselves God and also Jesus did not claim and even admitted to be the Messiah who is the son of God. Saying that Jesus never called himself the son of God is a lie either born of ignorance of the gospels or deception.

immaculatesense:
Though the question was not directed to you but I respect your input. But you did not anstmy question? Was 'elohim' in Psalm 8:5 the same as 'angelos' in Hebrews? I believe it's a straight forward question.

if you understood my response would you be repeating the question?

gohf:
if you understood my response would you be repeating the question?

You have successfully derailed this platform from its original purpose. Let's go back to the thread cos I don't like vague discussion.
The op asked three questions and I provided answers. Let's see any of my answer you disagree with and let's know ur viewpoint, because currently I am not sure what ur stand is.
OPS QUESTIONS
1. Is Jesus God?
2. Is Jesus equal to the Father?
3. Is the Trinity doctrine scriptural?

MY ANSWERS
1. Jesus is god (elohim/theos), but Jesus is not the Father.
2. Jesus is equal with the Father but no equal to the Father as the Father as exalted him to be in charge of his creation and to sit with him on his throne (equal with the Father) but he is subject to the Father and his will is subject to the will of the Father and the Father is above him (not equal to the Father).
3. The Trinity message is scriptural only to Salvation as the Father (1) sent the son (2) and the Father through the son sent the holy spirit (3) who together united in purpose help mankind to achieve or attain the salvation of God. But the Father is Supreme Over the son as the son is supreme over the spirit. The three are united in purpose but distinct in authority and roles.

Those are my points and I supported them with scriptures in my first response to the op. If you have any issues with any of the above, be specific, let's not derail the thread on a side topics. Thanks.

immaculatesense:
Okay sir. Can you explain in your own way- John 1:1. I am listening since you claim that the word of god (theos) is not god (theos). I am waiting. Because I have explained how Jesus is god but not the Father but you said no. Explain John 1:1 in your own way. I am listening.

You either believe God who revealed that He is the only true God or believe Jesus the son of God who revealed that God our Father is the only true God.

Now about John 1:1
The word from God is a revelation of God.

If the word logos is speech and spoken. So in the beginning was the utterance, and that utterance was according to God, the accusative noun, referring to the one who brought about the word. In the Greek text the nominative noun changes from the word to God. John writee theos en ho logos.

A nominative noun is the subject of conversation.

If the subject we are talking about is God, then John is saying theos en ho logos. Is to answer what was revealed from the beginning. If one is talking about a word, you would have to ask, what is he word about, who spoke the word, when was it spoken. And John answers that. In the beginning it was spoken, it was God who spoken the word and the word was about God.

Theos being nominative suggests that the word belongs to God and is from God so instead of saying the word was God, we should simply say the word is God's or God's word for it is from Him and about Him.

If not you confuse yourself by suggesting that John Hebrew who believe in one God was saying that God was God and was with Himself and He became flesh and dwelt among men and came to reveal Himself to men but this contradicts the very word of God that reveals God the one true God who is above all and sent forth His word. And like verse 14 records, the revelation became flesh and dwelt among men

immaculatesense:
Sir, why all this back and forth? If you dispel Jacob, can you also dispel Manoah and his wife in Judges 13:22 or Abraham in Genesis 18:16-33?
You mentioned Moses. Let me ask you. Do you believe Moses saw the back of the Father? Because if you see my back, you have seen me. And Jesus said 'No man has seen the Father AT ANY TIME except the son who comes from the Father.' The Father never comes to the realm of men, he only send his messengera in his name to act in his stead before the sons of men. Moses only said the fullness of the Father's glory revealed in the angelic glory of the angels whom the Father has put in charge of the Israelite. Moses never saw the Father. Not him, not any before nor after him till date. Not even Stephen in his vision nor John of Patmos in his revelation.

dispel? In simple terms, Jacob did not fight with God, in fact the genesis account in chapter 32:24 calls the being A MAN, who was the one who gave him the name Israel.

Using that because Jacob makes the phrase that he has seen God face to face, the same phrase used by God concerning Moses who He said He speaks to face to face, and you suggest it is because angels are referred to as god is a wrong use of scripture which I pointed out to you in that post

Now you ask me if Moses saw the back of God, when you separate God from the Father, and refer to angels as god...

Let's read it
I said God descended, Exodus 34:5 YHVH descended in the cloud, stood with Moses and passed in front of Moses. Moses heard but yet according to Exodus 33:18-23, Moses asked to see God's glory and God said He will make His goodness pass before Moses but Moses will not see His face for God will cover him with his hand while He passes by and will remove His hand so Moses sees God's back but not His face.

This same being is the one whom Jesus sits at His right hand.

Your answer is yes Moses saw the back of YHVH the one true God, that revelation made Moses face glow in verse 29.

You say Jesus said no man has seen God, that is true no one has seen God the way he has, He, God, is always covered in cloud, even when He spoke to Job who claimed that now He has seen God, does that make Job a liar? No, it doesn't. Neither does the account of the elders who ascended with Moses in Exodus 24, liars for saying they saw God, even though they probably did not see God's face.

Jesus was not a man when He saw God's face, after all Matt. 18.10 says the angels see the face of God

immaculatesense:
You have successfully derailed this platform from its original purpose. Let's go back to the thread cos I don't like vague discussion.
The op asked three questions and I provided answers. Let's see any of my answer you disagree with and let's know ur viewpoint, because currently I am not sure what ur stand is.
OPS QUESTIONS
1. Is Jesus God?
2. Is Jesus equal to the Father?
3. Is the Trinity doctrine scriptural?

MY ANSWERS
1. Jesus is god (elohim/theos), but Jesus is not the Father.
2. Jesus is equal with the Father but no equal to the Father as the Father as exalted him to be in charge of his creation and to sit with him on his throne (equal with the Father) but he is subject to the Father and his will is subject to the will of the Father and the Father is above him (not equal to the Father).
3. The Trinity message is scriptural only to Salvation as the Father (1) sent the son (2) and the Father through the son sent the holy spirit (3) who together united in purpose help mankind to achieve or attain the salvation of God. But the Father is Supreme Over the son as the son is supreme over the spirit. The three are united in purpose but distinct in authority and roles.

Those are my points and I supported them with scriptures in my first response to the op. If you have any issues with any of the above, be specific, let's not derail the thread on a side topics. Thanks.

You may have made a mistake in this post, as you wanted to write like you previously did that Jesus is equal to God but not equal to the Father, but both statements are incorrect and are not God's word. Jesus is neither equal with God not with God as there is only one God who is our Father, YHVH.

The OP asked a rhetorical question of which he answered a capital NO. Between you and I who do you think derail the original purpose of the thread? With your own deviating answers?!

You are insisting on what you are saying without neither understanding the post nor scripture. Have you not also deviated from scripture as well?

gohf:
You either believe God who revealed that He is the only true God or believe Jesus the son of God who revealed that God our Father is the only true God.

Now about John 1:1
The word from God is a revelation of God.

If the word logos is speech and spoken. So in the beginning was the utterance, and that utterance was according to God, the accusative noun, referring to the one who brought about the word. In the Greek text the nominative noun changes from the word to God. John writee theos en ho logos.

A nominative noun is the subject of conversation.

If the subject we are talking about is God, then John is saying theos en ho logos. Is to answer what was revealed from the beginning. If one is talking about a word, you would have to ask, what is he word about, who spoke the word, when was it spoken. And John answers that. In the beginning it was spoken, it was God who spoken the word and the word was about God.

Theos being nominative suggests that the word belongs to God and is from God so instead of saying the word was God, we should simply say the word is God's or God's word for it is from Him and about Him.

If not you confuse yourself by suggesting that John Hebrew who believe in one God was saying that God was God and was with Himself and He became flesh and dwelt among men and came to reveal Himself to men but this contradicts the very word of God that reveals God the one true God who is above all and sent forth His word. And like verse 14 records, the revelation became flesh and dwelt among men

Sir, with all due respect, you know this is not true. The passage was clear. That passage like any other passages show the divinity of Jesus before his earthly birth. Jesus was with the Father at creation before the creation itself began. I have made my points, it is not to convince you but to share my thoughts. You have shared yours and u are well respected and celebrated. Thanks.

gohf:
You may have made a mistake in this post, as you wanted to write like you previously did that Jesus is equal to God but not equal to the Father, but both statements are incorrect and are not God's word. Jesus is neither equal with God not with God as there is only one God who is our Father, YHVH.

The OP asked a rhetorical question of which he answered a capital NO. Between you and I who do you think derail the original purpose of the thread? With your own deviating answers?!

You are insisting on what you are saying without neither understanding the post nor scripture. Have you not also deviated from scripture as well?

Good. Now I understand ur view cos I have been lost. Didn't know ur standpoint until now.
You said Jesus was not equal with God. Let start with that. I hope before you give an answer you must have considered different passages of scriptures. Though you gave a distorted explanation of John 1, but let's see your interpretation on being equal with God using Philippians 2:5-11. Pls explain the passage to us.
Thanks

immaculatesense:
Philippians 2:5-11.

Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus is the God's only begotten Son the only being directly created by God so if all other intelligent beings (human/angel) are created in God's image {Genesis 1:26} Jesus is the first grade of them all but he surrendered himself to live with humans like our equal claiming son of man {Matthew 20:28} he did all of that to help mankind regain their lost glory as God's image {Romans 3:23} and surrendered his human life as a ransom sacrifice so that obedient mankind can have everlasting life has God purposed in the beginning all these he did to the glory of his God and father! John 20:17

immaculatesense:
That passage like any other passages show the divinity of Jesus before his earthly birth. Jesus was with the Father at creation before the creation itself began.

Being with God from the beginning does not and will never make Jesus equal to God!

Anyone could have gotten that privilege as the firstborn of all creations! Colossians 1:15-16
Your own senior brother who is the first born of your parents may have some privileges more than you do because he has being with your parents before you that does not make him equal to either your dad or mum!

gohf:
I think you should change the title from "same" to "similar" authority

I love it that way

gohf:
ah thought I was the only one who found it confusing

StillDtruth:
Clearly because you really did not want to see the painful Truth they are saying.

Painful truth about what ser, that God is Trinity?

Jesus and the early Christians only believe in ONE GOD.

immaculatesense:
Sir, I respect your view and I have the same view too. But let me help you to create a balance. Your view is correct but not complete. Let me answer or rephrase your thoughts one after another.
1. Is Jesus same as God? The answer is YES. But is Jesus same as the Father? The answer is NO. I will clarify this in my last paragraph.
2. Is Jesus equal to God? The answer is YES. But is Jesus equal to the Father? The answer is NO. He was only equal 'with' not 'to' the Father. I will also clarify this in my last paragraph.
3. Is the Trinity doctrine scriptural? The answer is YES. But has the Trinity doctrine been rightly taught the way the scriptures viewed it by most denomination? The answer is NO.

MY LAST PARAGRAPH
The word 'god'-'elohim' (note that there is not capital letters in Hebrew and Greek) is a plural word that is used for anyone divine or special. Angels were known as 'god' in the biblical period. Study the story of Jacob wrestling with god (angel) Genesis 32:30. Remember Manoah and his wife saw an angel and the said they saw 'god'- Judges 13:22. There are numerous examples of angels been regarded as God all across the scriptures but those two examples are clear enough for that.
Men were also called god. Remember that even the Father through his angel called Moses god (elohim) unto pharaoh and Aaron his prophet- Exodus 7:1. Abraham was called 'god' (elohim) by the Canaanites, even though some versions changed it to 'mighty' and some 'prince' but the original Hebrew word was 'elohim.'- Genesis 23:6. In Psalms the writer clearly stated that 'elohim sits on his throne in the heavenly court and judges among the elohim- Psalm 82:1.
Jesus is god (elohim-) because he is divine/deity but he is not the Father- the one and only god who alone is above all. Jesus is below him but superior to all other god.
In the true Bible teaching of the Trinity, just like the word Bible is not in the scriptures, the word Trinity is not in the scriptures but the Father who alone is supreme and above all sent his son Jesus on a salvation mission (John 3:16-18) and after fulfilling the mission the Father through Jesus sent the holy spirit to guide and lead men into all truth (John 16:13-15). These three, united in purpose but distinct in authority as the Father is above the son and the son is above the spirit play their roles in the salvation of mankind. This is how the Trinity should be taught and not to make the three equal in authority as that is not true, but they are one and united in purpose.
Jesus is not equal to the Father. That should not even be a debate at all. Jesus himself declared severally that "My Father is greater than I am." And severally he always makes it known that he is subject to the Father's will and that the Father is his God- John 20:17. The son came from the Father but the Father came from no one. The son is god (deity/divine/worthy of worship) but the Father is god over all (deity/divine/worthy of worship).
Thanks you so much. I hope you will just include this in your view which is correct but not complete. Peace.

"Jesus is God" is an ambiguous phrase. I would rather say Jesus is a God. While the Father Jehovah is the GOD.

According to 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 and Deuteronomy 6:4, God is just one person, the Father. Nothing else.

If you are asked who's the true God, what would be your answer?

MaxInDHouse:
Being with God from the beginning does not and will never make Jesus equal to God!

Anyone could have gotten that privilege as the firstborn of all creations! Colossians 1:15-16
Your own senior brother who is the first born of your parents may have some privileges more than you do because he has being with your parents before you that does not make him equal to either your dad or mum!

You nailed it ser

cornelboy:
"Jesus is God" is an ambiguous phrase. I would rather say Jesus is a God. While the Father Jehovah is the GOD.

According to 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 and Deuteronomy 6:4, God is just one person, the Father. Nothing else.

If you are asked who's the true God, what would be your answer?

I respect and understand your point sir. Whether you put 'a' of not, we both agree that Jesus is divine which the words 'elohim' and 'theos' (god) stand for. Also, we both agree that the Father is the Only One True God and He is greater than Jesus who is his son and Messiah.
If we all can agree on this, I believe the argument of the deity or divinity of Jesus is settle and the argument of the Father being his superior and his God as Jesus himself confess is simple. Let's put it this way so we can all agree.
JESUS IS GREATER AND GOD TO ALL OTHER CREATURE AND THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN ALL CREATION INCLUDING JESUS AND THE SUPREME GOD OVER ALL WHOM JESUS HIMSELF IS SUBJECT TO IN ALL THINGS.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
Being with God from the beginning does not and will never make Jesus equal to God!

Anyone could have gotten that privilege as the firstborn of all creations! Colossians 1:15-16
Your own senior brother who is the first born of your parents may have some privileges more than you do because he has being with your parents before you that does not make him equal to either your dad or mum!

Maxim. I was careful with my choice of words like Paul in Corinthians 15. Jesus is not EQUAL TO GOD. Equal to means you can replace if stand in. But he is EQUAL WITH GOD. Equal with God means God has exalted him and given him a name that is above all names and all nations are to worship and serve him and only The Father who is the One True God is above him. I don't think you disagree with that sir.
Thanks.

immaculatesense:
JESUS IS GREATER AND GOD TO ALL OTHER CREATURE

WRONG!

Do you agree that your own dad is your God?
If not then Jesus is not my God the only true God used Jesus to create all other things {Colossians 1:15-16} just as God used your dad to make you!

This is why Jesus said:

“Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” John 20:17

So God made Jesus King (Lord) over all of us but when talking about our God we all have just One who is the father and God of both Jesus and me! John 17:3

immaculatesense:
Maxim. I was careful with my choice of words like Paul in Corinthians 15. Jesus is not EQUAL TO GOD. Equal to means you can replace if stand in. But he is EQUAL WITH GOD. Equal with God means God has exalted him and given him a name that is above all names and all nations are to worship and serve him and only The Father who is the One True God is above him. I don't think you disagree with that sir.
Thanks.

God gave him a name that's above every other name means whatever Jesus says stands as final because he is God's appointed and anointed King over us all.

He is not our God since he is not the owner of whatever rules or standards he is setting those are from someone greater and wiser than him!

MaxInDHouse:
Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus is the God's only begotten Son the only being directly created by God so if all other intelligent beings (human/angel) are created in God's image {Genesis 1:26} Jesus is the first grade of them all but he surrendered himself to live with humans like our equal claiming son of man {Matthew 20:28} he did all of that to help mankind regain their lost glory as God's image {Romans 3:23} and surrendered his human life as a ransom sacrifice so that obedient mankind can have everlasting life has God purposed in the beginning all these he did to the glory of his God and father! John 20:17

You are correct sir. I do not disagree with you. And that is a good explanation of that verse. Like I explained earlier the word 'elohim' means god/divinity/deity. Jesus is divine/deity/god. This does not imply that he is equal to god who is the Father of all. He himself said that 'I go to my Father and your father, to my God and your God". Jesus is above all and only the Father is above him.
But let me note something, in the original Greek 'form' is not there as you used it. In the original it puts it as "being 'theos'', which is 'being god or deity or divine'. So, please, if you are not safe with calling Jesus god, don't alter the verse, since 'theos'' also means deity or divine', you can replace it with 'being divine.'
You can rephrase the passage like this to be safe sir.
Philippians 2:6-7
[6]Though he was God/Divine,
    he did not think of equality with God/Divinity
    as something to cling to.
[7]Instead, he gave up his divine/god privileges;
    he took the humble position of a slave
    and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
  
It means Jesus for the sake of salvation left his divinity and did not hold tightly to his divinity but took on the form of man which is an humble act.
Jesus is god who is subject to the Father who is above all and he is the one true god.
 Thanks.

immaculatesense:
You are correct sir. I do not disagree with you. And that is a good explanation of that verse. Like I explained earlier the word 'elohim' means god/divinity/deity. Jesus is divine/deity/god. This does not imply that he is equal to god who is the Father of all. He himself said that 'I go to my Father and your father, to my God and your God". Jesus is above all and only the Father is above him.
But let me note something, in the original Greek 'form' is not there as you used it. In the original it puts it as "being 'theos'', which is 'being god or deity or divine'. So, please, if you are not safe with calling Jesus god, don't alter the verse, since 'theos'' also means deity or divine', you can replace it with 'being divine.'
You can rephrase the passage like this to be safe sir.
Philippians 2:6-7
[6]Though he was God/Divine,
    he did not think of equality with God/Divinity
    as something to cling to.
[7]Instead, he gave up his divine/god privileges;
    he took the humble position of a slave
    and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
  
It means Jesus for the sake of salvation left his divinity and did not hold tightly to his divinity but took on the form of man which is an humble act.
Jesus is god who is subject to the Father who is above all and he is the one true god. Thanks.

All angels are gods/divine just as humans are gods too but when talking about my own God it is not Jesus just as no human is my God!

immaculatesense:
Good. Now I understand ur view cos I have been lost. Didn't know ur standpoint until now.
You said Jesus was not equal with God. Let start with that. I hope before you give an answer you must have considered different passages of scriptures. Though you gave a distorted explanation of John 1, but let's see your interpretation on being equal with God using Philippians 2:5-11. Pls explain the passage to us.
Thanks

distorted because it is different from the lie you have been fed with?

immaculatesense:
Sir, with all due respect, you know this is not true. The passage was clear. That passage like any other passages show the divinity of Jesus before his earthly birth. Jesus was with the Father at creation before the creation itself began. I have made my points, it is not to convince you but to share my thoughts. You have shared yours and u are well respected and celebrated. Thanks.

why not state clearly what is not true

Is it that John wasn't Hebrew or that he didn't believe in one God
Or is it not true that the word is the spoken word that came from God that manifested and became flesh.

Honestly I do not need your celebration nor respect nor appreciation, especially when what is needed understanding and honesty.

You first accuse a person of purposely lying, "you know it is not true" then you celebrate one you believe to be a liar... 😟

gohf:
distorted because it is different from the lie you have been fed with?

Smile. I will continue to show my respect sir. What lie sir? The the Father is the One True God? That Jesus is divine and has been raised by God to the God class where all kneels in heaven and on earth should bow and worship before him? What area is the lie sir, is it me pointing it out that the Father, his son and his spirit are one (united in purpose and will) but distinct in authority, nature and role? That the Father is above and superior to the son and the son to the spirit? Tell me my lies sir. That Jesus is divine or a divinity or a deity and his life did not begin just when he was born like you and I? Pls point the lies out in all these my submissions.
Thanks.

MaxInDHouse:
All angels are gods/divine just as humans are gods too but when talking about my own God it is not Jesus just as no human is my God!

Okay sir. I respect you. Do you believe that Jesus is human just like me and you or you believe that he has been with God from the beginning and he is the divine word of God who became flesh? I have just one god, the Father of our Lord Jesus and he has handed over the kingdom of the earth to his son Jesus just like the op was comparing in the case of Pharaoh handing over the entire Egypt to Joseph. I worship the one true god, the Father of all creation through our Lord and Savior Jesus. The Father is superior/greater than the son and the son is supreme over all other creation.

immaculatesense:
Smile. I will continue to show my respect sir. What lie sir? The the Father is the One True God? That Jesus is divine and has been raised by God to the God class where all kneels in heaven and on earth should bow and worship before him? What area is the lie sir, is it me pointing it out that the Father, his son and his spirit are one (united in purpose and will) but distinct in authority, nature and role? That the Father is above and superior to the son and the son to the spirit? Tell me my lies sir. That Jesus is divine or a divinity or a deity and his life did not begin just when he was born like you and I? Pls point the lies out in all these my submissions.
Thanks.

the lie is that there is nothing like "God class", Jesus is human and not divine nor God, though he is not human like us who came from dust but he is man from God. He is worshipped as king and lamb of God and not as a god.

Yes your lies are that Jesus is divine, a divinity, a diety those are your lies and your accusations against Christ Jesus the son of the living God

MaxInDHouse:
WRONG!

Do you agree that your own dad is your God?
If not then Jesus is not my God the only true God used Jesus to create all other things {Colossians 1:15-16} just as God used your dad to make you!

This is why Jesus said:

“Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” John 20:17

So God made Jesus King (Lord) over all of us but when talking about our God we all have just One who is the father and God of both Jesus and me! John 17:3

Sir, how do you serve the Father and do away with Jesus in worship? I don't understand. How do you worship the father if not through his son?

cornelboy:
Just like Pharaoh king of Egypt gave Joseph authority to rule Egypt, is the same way God, the Father gave authority to his son Jesus.

Mat 28:18 NIV
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Gen 41:39-44 (Joseph/Pharaoh story)

Does Jesus having all the authority in heaven and on earth mean he has same authority with God?
Study Paul's inspired words carefully in the scripture below;

1 Cor 15 NIV
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Pharaoh was greater than Joseph the same way God is greater than Jesus.

Is Jesus same as God?
Is Jesus equal to God?
Is the Trinity doctrine scriptural?

The answer is capital NO!

You began with a false premise. Please edit your title.
Joseph did not have the same authority as Jesus Christ.
If you had said, Joseph's authority had similarities with that of Christ, then no one will debate you.
No human had or will ever have the authority of Christ.
Lastly, the bible already tells you that the Word is God so again saying Jesus Christ is not God is false.
So clearly, you sold two falsehoods.

Now, this may be out of the scope of your topic but when the bible calls Jesus Christ the Everlasting Father, let me ask you, who are his Children?

immaculatesense:
I respect and understand your point sir. Whether you put 'a' of not, we both agree that Jesus is divine which the words 'elohim' and 'theos' (god) stand for. Also, we both agree that the Father is the Only One True God and He is greater than Jesus who is his son and Messiah.
If we all can agree on this, I believe the argument of the deity or divinity of Jesus is settle and the argument of the Father being his superior and his God as Jesus himself confess is simple. Let's put it this way so we can all agree.

Thanks.

JESUS IS GREATER AND GOD TO ALL OTHER CREATURE AND THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN ALL CREATION INCLUDING JESUS AND THE SUPREME GOD OVER ALL WHOM JESUS HIMSELF IS SUBJECT TO IN ALL THINGS.

On point
Unlike the trinity doctrine going around in churches today

tctrills:
You began with a false premise. Please edit your title.
Joseph did not have the same authority as Jesus Christ.
If you had said, Joseph's authority had similarities with that of Christ, then no one will debate you.
No human had or will ever have the authority of Christ.
Lastly, the bible already tells you that the Word is God so again saying Jesus Christ is not God is false.
So clearly, you sold two falsehoods.

Now, this may be out of the scope of your topic but when the bible calls Jesus Christ the Everlasting Father, let me ask you, who are his Children?

My post is just a comparison between both Jesus and Joseph. That's all

When i said "Jesus is not God", I meant is Jesus is not the Father, he's not the same person as the father. Only the Father is the one God.

tctrills:
You began with a false premise. Please edit your title.
Joseph did not have the same authority as Jesus Christ.
If you had said, Joseph's authority had similarities with that of Christ, then no one will debate you.
No human had or will ever have the authority of Christ.
Lastly, the bible already tells you that the Word is God so again saying Jesus Christ is not God is false.
So clearly, you sold two falsehoods.

Now, this may be out of the scope of your topic but when the bible calls Jesus Christ the Everlasting Father, let me ask you, who are his Children?

Oh it's you lol

Let's start with this, I'm a jehovah witness, what's your religion?