₦airaland Forum

Kobojunkie:
1. The story you tell of Moses and all the rest do not line up with what is written of them in Israelite Scripture. I find myself needing to depend on you to fill in the gaps in the story you continue to tell.

2. Make legitimate/rationalize/Vindicate....Recall here that your story did not state that this creator of yours contacted Moses before his 80th birthday. There had to be justification to explain the sudden contacting of him after he had turned 80 years of age. There had to be some catalyst to explain the sudden communication— a justification of sorts— after 80 long years of none.

According to you, what Moses did during those 40 years that he was not attempting to save his people mattered little to nothing since he was a special child born to carry out a special mission by your creator. That invariably means that even if Moses had also been involved in, say, the illegal trading of slaves or drugs during that time, it wouldn't have mattered because at the appointed time, he would have been called by your creator and sent off on the mission to rescue his people anyways, right?

3. My parents are not gods— they are humans like myself; hence, they are random people too. If your creator does not consider people random beings, then what about the man that Moses killed? Did you creator specially assign for him to die at the hands of Moses? Was it his mission to die at the hands of Moses? Was that an act rationalized in that sense or something?

4. The reference to a person called Abram is meaningless since you seem to be writing your own stories. You would need to fill me in on the details regarding your particular Abram for me to better understand what other weight that reference is meant to carry.

5. The book instead says that Moses of Israel, like his ancestors, had to abide by YHWH's every commandment and statute to become holy and then justified by Him, YHWH, the God of Israel. Moses' ancestor, Abraham, did the same— the faith He had is as a result of His careful submission and obedience to every one of YHWH's commandments and statutes (Genesis 25 vs 3-5)- it was not of chance or circumstance. In the Book, YHWH's requirement of men is that they first be justified by Him, and His Law is the standard by which that justification is obtained by men. If Moses had not learned of the God of His Fathers and done that which He commanded, He would not have become a holy man and would hence not have been invited by the God of His Fathers to walk the holy ground. [s]If Moses had become a holy man before his 80th birthday, there was no reason specified in scripture for why Moses could not have been called at that point, too, given the prophecy that was given to Abraham was of a period, not an exact date.[/s]

MOSES WAS CALLED AT THAT POINT BECAUSE THE 400 YEARS OF EXILE WAS AT HAND. COME ON MAN?! MOSES HADN'T EVEN CIRCUMCISED HIS SONS BY THEN ( A very important commandment by GOD to Abraham and his descendants) - A DEFIANT ACT THAT ALMOST GOT HIM KILLED BUT FOR THE QUICK ACTION OF HIS WIFE.


[s]Your own story seems to chuck what happened to Moses to chance and circumstance; you say he was born special, and it was just for that reason that he was called up at age 80 to lead his people.[/s]

ANOTHER FALSE NARRATIVE

6. Is Jesus Christ of Israel the creator who gave Moses a mission?

My first observation from your post is that you are buttressing my points. Now I wonder if we are even holding the opposite end of a stick.

I gave a simplistic yet straight to the point answer but you bombard me with deeper interpretations of my statement. You lambaste me of be over religious (religious folks! religious folks!) yet your comments is being inundated with religious backings. Validated with religious narratives.


2: Moses encountered the burning bush while he was 80yrs olds-not his 80th birthday. Moses was 80 years old when it was the 400th year of the Israelites exile in Egypt. If Moses was 29yrs old during the 400th year of the exile. A 29yrs old Moses would have led the Israelite out of Egypt.

In response to the second part of your number 2: As long as Moses was not an Anti-GOD, he was alright. Slave trade is not a sin- Come on! Moses even got a 2nd wife-What does it matter? Before he became king; David was once a bandit- placing levies on farmers in order to give them "protection'. One of such person who refused his offer almost got himself killed.

Before mobile bible applications became popular, there were GOD's people who smuggled bibles to core Islamic countries- Was it an illegal act-Yes. Was it a sin ? No! Peter was "illegally" freed from prison by an Angel. Come on?!

3: So by your summation, anyone who dies in the hands of another is just a random being? That is a grave thing to have in one's mind or have as a thought. That is the inner - conviction of many serial killerS.


4 : My reference to Abram (not yet Abraham) - Genesis 15 vs 13

NomoreKobo:
➜MOSES WAS CALLED AT THAT POINT BECAUSE THE 400 YEARS OF EXILE WAS AT HAND. COME ON MAN?!
➜ MOSES HADN'T EVEN CIRCUMCISED HIS SONS BY THEN ( A very important commandment by GOD to Abraham and his descendants) - A DEFIANT ACT THAT ALMOST GOT HIM KILLED BUT FOR THE QUICK ACTION OF HIS WIFE.

1. The exodus took place almost 500 years after the Israelites had migrated to then become slaves in the land of Egypt, not before 400 years. If you did the calculating yourself, you would see this for yourself.

2. YHWH justified and called Abraham in Genesis 12 vs 1— Abram had proved himself a holy man then. It was not until Genesis 17, long after YHWH had made the promise to Abraham, that He, YHWH, then required that he and his descendants circumcize themselves as proof of the other agreement, which was to make Abraham and his descendants a great nation.

1. When Abram was 99 years old, the Lord appeared to him. He said, “I am God, All-Powerful.[a] Obey me and live the right way.
2 If you do this, I will prepare an agreement between us. I will promise to make your people a great nation.”
3 Then Abram bowed down before God. God said to him,
4 “This is my part of our agreement: I will make you the father of many nations. 5 I will change your name from Abram[b] to Abraham,[c] because I am making you the father of many nations.
6 I will give you many descendants. New nations and kings will come from you.
7 And I will prepare an agreement between me and you. This agreement will also be for all your descendants. It will continue forever. I will be your God and the God of all your descendants.
8 And I will give this land to you and to all your descendants. I will give you the land you are traveling through—the land of Canaan. I will give you this land forever, and I will be your God.”
9 Then God said to Abraham, “Now, this is your part of the agreement: You and all your descendants will obey my agreement.
10 This is my agreement that all of you must obey. This is the agreement between me and you and all your descendants. Every male must be circumcised.
11 You will cut the skin to show that you follow the agreement between me and you.
12 When the baby boy is eight days old, you will circumcise him. Every boy born among your people and every boy who is a slave of your people must be circumcised.
13 So every baby boy in your nation will be circumcised. Every boy who is born from your family or bought as a slave will be circumcised.
14 Abraham, this is the agreement between you and me: Any male who is not circumcised will be cut off from his people[d] because he has broken my agreement.” - Genesis 17 vs 1 - 14

YHWH never did state to Abraham that circumcision came with a guarantee of holiness as you assume. Holiness, as was the case with Abraham, was obtainable without circumcision.

You mention that Moses was almost killed because he was not circumcized. Well, I am not certain if he would have been killed had his wife not intervened, as you say she did. Why? Well, because what YHWH instead said, in verse 14 above, is that any male who is not circumcized will instead be cut off from his people. And I don't have enough information to for sure claim that death was what YHWH meant when He said that.

Circumcision was given as a seal of the second agreement between YHWH and Abraham, not as a requirement of holiness. I mean, we read later that YHWH killed off many of the circumcized israelites in the desert, so it was not necessarily a fore-requirment for holiness, nor was it meant to ward off death.

Kobojunkie:
1. The exodus took place almost 500 years after the Israelites had migrated to then become slaves in the land of Egypt, not before 400 years. If you did the calculating yourself, you would see this for yourself.

2. YHWH justified and called Abraham in Genesis 12 vs 1— Abram had proved himself a holy man then. It was not until Genesis 17, long after YHWH had made the promise to Abraham, that He, YHWH, then required that he and his descendants circumcize themselves as proof of the other agreement, which was to make Abraham and his descendants a great nation.
Circumcision never came with a guarantee of holiness as you assume. Holiness, as was the case with Abraham, was obtainable without circumcision.

You mention that Moses was almost killed because he was not circumcized. Well, I am not certain if he would have been killed had his wife not intervened, as you say she did. Why? Well, because what YHWH instead said, in verse 14 above, is that any male who is not circumcized will instead be cut off from his people. And I don't have enough information to for sure claim that death was what YHWH meant when He said that.

Circumcision was given as a seal of the second agreement between YHWH and Abraham, not as a requirement of holiness. I mean, we read later that YHWH killed off many of the circumcized israelites in the desert, so it was not necessarily a fore-requirment for holiness, nor was it meant to ward off death.

Uncle

Exodus 4 Vs 24 On the way to Egypt, Moses stopped at a place to spend the night. The Lord met Moses at that place and tried to kill him.[a] 25 But Zipporah took a flint knife[b] and circumcised her son. She took the skin and touched his feet.

NomoreKobo:
➜My first observation from your post is that you are buttressing my points. Now I wonder if we are even holding the opposite end of a stick. I gave a simplistic yet straight to the point answer but you bombard me with deeper interpretations of my statement. You lambaste me of be over religious (religious folks! religious folks!) yet your comments is being inundated with religious backings. Validated with religious narratives.
➜2: Moses encountered the burning bush while he was 80yrs olds-not his 80th birthday. Moses was 80 years old when it was the 400th year of the Israelites exile in Egypt. If Moses was 29yrs old during the 400th year of the exile. A 29yrs old Moses would have led the Israelite out of Egypt.

1. You should probably put on your glasses, as nothing of what I have said so far lines up with the claims you have made thus far. Here's the funny thing of all of this. I have offered you no interpretation whatsoever as I instead regurgitate only that which is written in the book as it is written. I am a great believer in letting the book speak for itself as opposed to the twisting and skewing of words and meanings that is religion.

2. But this is wrong! Moses was not 80 years old on the 400th year of Israelites' exile in Egypt. The very claim that it had to be the 400th year came from religion and not from Israelite Scripture.

NomoreKobo:
➜Uncle Exodus 4 Vs 24 On the way to Egypt, Moses stopped at a place to spend the night. The Lord met Moses at that place and tried to kill him.[a] 25 But Zipporah took a flint knife[b] and circumcised her son. She took the skin and touched his feet.

I definitely read what is written but more importantly, I know what YHWH instead said. So, I would rather default to what YHWH said. By the way, Exodus 4 DOES NOT state that Zipporah circumcized Moses.

---

Upon closer review, I am not even certain that Moses was uncircumcised at all. His son was not as of Exodus 4 but Moses; there is no mention of him not being circumcized at that point in time.

Kobojunkie:
I definitely read what is written but more importantly, I know what YHWH instead said. So, I would rather default to what YHWH said. By the way, Exodus 4 DOES NOT state that Zipporah circumcized Moses.

---

Upon closer review, I am not even certain that Moses was uncircumcised at all.

You are using the scripture to contradict the scripture?

You believe what the Creator said in the scripture, but you don't believe what the scripture states the Creator said?

Phewww!

And you have even taken it one step further- "Upon your closer review"? Review based on what?

Kobojunkie:
1. You should probably put on your glasses, as nothing of what I have said so far lines up with the claims you have made thus far. Here's the funny thing of all of this. I have offered you no interpretation whatsoever as I instead regurgitate only that which is written in the book as it is written. I am a great believer in letting the book speak for itself as opposed to the twisting and skewing of words and meanings that is religion.

2. But this is wrong! Moses was not 80 years old on the 400th year of Israelites' exile in Egypt. The very claim that it had to be the 400th year came from religion and not from Israelite Scripture.

Please show me from the "Israelite Scripture, the number of years (or its approximate) the Israelites spent in Exile. Please.

NomoreKobo:
➜You are using the scripture to contradict the scripture?
➜You believe what the Creator said in the scripture, but you don't believe what the scripture states the Creator said?
➜Phewww! And you have even taken it one step further- "Upon your closer review"? Review based on what?

1. Wrong! I am using it to contradict the claims that are born of Religion.

2. What creator? I said YHWH is the God who called Moses and, according to Him, the uncircumcised man among the descendants of Abraham would be cut off from among the people. Not sure how that translates to being killed or why you religious folks concluded that Moses must have been uncircumcised and hence the reason for what is written in Exodus 4.

3. Review of what is written in the book versus the claim made by you religious folks, which is that Moses was uncircumcised even at age 80. No scripture states that. In Exodus 12, we have the same Moses telling the Israelites that they needed to be circumcized in order to eat the Passover meal. Moses ate the Passover meal, did he not?

Kobojunkie:
1. [s]The exodus took place almost 500 years after the Israelites had migrated to then become slaves in the land of Egypt, not before 400 years. If you did the calculating yourself, you would see this for yourself. [/s]

2. YHWH justified and called Abraham in Genesis 12 vs 1— Abram had proved himself a holy man then. It was not until Genesis 17, long after YHWH had made the promise to Abraham, that He, YHWH, then required that he and his descendants circumcize themselves as proof of the other agreement, which was to make Abraham and his descendants a great nation.
YHWH never did state to Abraham that circumcision came with a guarantee of holiness as you assume. Holiness, as was the case with Abraham, was obtainable without circumcision.

You mention that Moses was almost killed because he was not circumcized. Well, I am not certain if he would have been killed had his wife not intervened, as you say she did. Why? Well, because what YHWH instead said, in verse 14 above, is that any male who is not circumcized will instead be cut off from his people. And I don't have enough information to for sure claim that death was what YHWH meant when He said that.

Circumcision was given as a seal of the second agreement between YHWH and Abraham, not as a requirement of holiness. I mean, we read later that YHWH killed off many of the circumcized israelites in the desert, so it was not necessarily a fore-requirment for holiness, nor was it meant to ward off death.

Almost 500 years indeed

Kobojunkie:
1. Wrong! I am using it to contradict the claims that are born of Religion.

2. What creator? I said YHWH is the God who called Moses and, according to Him, the uncircumcised man among the descendants of Abraham would be cut off from among the people. Not sure how that translates to being killed or why you religious folks concluded that Moses must have been uncircumcised and hence the reason for what is written in Exodus 4.

3. Review of what is written in the book versus the claim made by you religious folks, which is that Moses was uncircumcised even at age 80. No scripture states that. In Exodus 12, we have the same Moses telling the Israelites that they needed to be circumcized in order to eat the Passover meal. Moses ate the Passover meal, did he not?

Are you categorically saying that Exodus 4 Vs 24 is not part of the Israelite Scripture, but was fabricated by "religious folks" And whatever is written therewith is not true?

Please clarify.

NomoreKobo:
✓ Almost 500 years indeed

Stop believing everything religion tells you and read the book for yourself.

NomoreKobo:
✓ Are you categorically saying that Exodus 4 Vs 24 is not part of the Israelite Scripture, but was fabricated by "religious folks" And whatever is written therewith is not true?
Please clarify.

Try to pay attention please! 😩

Recall that you had earlier asserted that Moses could not have attained holiness at the time he walked up the mountain to meet the burning bush since, according to you, he was not circumcised. I pointed out then that before the introduction of the Old Law of Moses, which came after the event, YHWH did not make circumcision a prerequisite for Holiness status. Shem, Noah, and even Abraham were not circumcised before YHWH justified them.

You had also mentioned Zipporah's act detailed in Exodus 4, and I pointed out that the entry in that chapter does not state that
✓ Moses was unholy
✓ Moses was uncircumcised
✓ and hence not that YHWH attempted to kill Moses there because Moses was unholy or uncircumcised.

In Exodus 12, we read that the foreigners who wished to be a part of the nation of Israel had to be circumcized even those we eventually learn that they were excluded from the reward of the Covenant of Moses since they were not of the bloodline of Jacob— they had to be descended from that bloodline to reap the afterlife promised in the Land of Canaan by YHWH. Hence, holiness did not apply to them even though they were required to be circumcised to eat the Passover meal and live among the people of Israel.

For you to now, after this—ask me if the verse was fabricated— is utterly ludicrous. I am like, where in the world does this idea of yours come from, any of what I have said so far? 🙄🙄🙄

NomoreKobo:
✓ Please show me from the "Israelite Scripture, the number of years (or its approximate) the Israelites spent in Exile. Please.

You can start by showing me exactly where you get the claim that it was exactly on the 400th year that Moses had turned 80.

40 The Israelites had lived in Egypt for 430 years.
41 After 430 years, to the very day, all the armies of the Lord left Egypt.
42 The night they left, the Lord watched over them to bring them safely out of Egypt. So the Israelites will always celebrate this night each year to remember what the Lord did. - Exodus 12 vs 40 - 42

Exodus 12 claims the Israelites had been in Egypt for exactly 430 years by the time

Kobojunkie:
You can start by showing me exactly where you get the claim that it was exactly on the 400th year that Moses had turned 80.

Exodus 12 claims the Israelites had been in Egypt for exactly 430 years by the time

And you rounded it up to 500? How convenient of you.

Oh you holier than thou Folks! You are just being pedantic.

Alright then, let me try to be a pendant this one time...

How is 430yrs, almost 500yrs? Is that how you do your rounding up of numbers?. For a pedant, one would have thought you would give me the correct figure, rather than come up with a number (500yrs)that is way off the mark than the one I stated (400yrs).

Kobojunkie:
Try to pay attention please! 😩

Recall that you had earlier asserted that Moses could not have attained holiness at the time he walked up the mountain to meet the burning bush since, according to you, he was not circumcised. I pointed out then that before the introduction of the Old Law of Moses, which came after the event, YHWH did not make circumcision a prerequisite for Holiness status. Shem, Noah, and even Abraham were not circumcised before YHWH justified them.

You had also mentioned Zipporah's act detailed in Exodus 4, and I pointed out that the entry in that chapter does not state that
✓ Moses was unholy
✓ Moses was uncircumcised
✓ and hence not that YHWH attempted to kill Moses there because Moses was unholy or uncircumcised.

In Exodus 12, we read that the foreigners who wished to be a part of the nation of Israel had to be circumcized even those we eventually learn that they were excluded from the reward of the Covenant of Moses since they were not of the bloodline of Jacob— they had to be descended from that bloodline to reap the afterlife promised in the Land of Canaan by YHWH. Hence, holiness did not apply to them even though they were required to be circumcised to eat the Passover meal and live among the people of Israel.

For you to now, after this—ask me if the verse was fabricated— is utterly ludicrous. I am like, where in the world does this idea of yours come from, any of what I have said so far? 🙄🙄🙄

According to me "He was not circumcised" ?

Please point me to where I made this bold statement. I beg you. You read my posts and just interpret it in your words? It's scaring.

Once again, pease point me to where I stated that Moses was not circumcised

NomoreKobo:
➜And you rounded it up to 500? How convenient of you.
➜ Oh you holier than thou Folks! You are just being pedantic. Alright then, let me try to be a pendant this one time... How is 430yrs, almost 500yrs? Is that how you do your rounding up of numbers?.
➜For a pedant, one would have thought you would give me the correct figure, rather than come up with a number (500yrs)that is way off the mark than the one I stated (400yrs).

1. I knew the number was higher than 400(counting the fact that Joseph was the first descendant of Jacob(Israel) who supposedly arrived in Egypt, became a prisoner, and later a governor all before his family came to join him much later). That is the reason why I stated that it was towards 500— no rounding attempted— instead of exactly 400.

2. There is nothing holier than thou here since that concept only applies as far as you religious folks are concerned. I am simply interested in the written facts in the book versus the many tales traded by you religious folks.

3. I don't walk around with exact values in my head, but the one thing I am certain of is that religious takes never line up with what is stated in the book.

NomoreKobo:
➜According to me "He was not circumcised" ? Please point me to where I made this bold statement. I beg you. You read my posts and just interpret it in your words? It's scaring. Once again, pease point me to where I stated that Moses was not circumcised

. You didn't say that? My mistake!

What then was the essence of mentioning the uncircumcision of his son as a condition to negate the claim that Moses was a holy man at the time he was called to walk holy ground by the burning bush? Where is it stated in the book that a man with an uncircumcised son could not attain holiness?

Princess80:
I have read an agreed to all terms and conditions is the biggest lie people tell

I don't tell this lie because I always make sure I read a part of the terms and conditions before I check the box. It didn't say "I have read ALL the terms and conditions."

Kobojunkie:
. You didn't say that? My mistake!

[s]What then was the essence of mentioning the uncircumcision of his son as a condition to negate the claim that Moses was a holy man at the time he was called to walk holy ground by the burning bush?[/s] Where is it stated in the book that a man with an uncircumcised son could not attain holiness?

I mentioned the uncircumcision of his son, to explain the fact/reality that because the Will of the Creator was at hand in his life; the circumcision of his son became a secondary issue (at that point in time)- The burning bush encounter had to happen, the issue of circumcision was to be dealt with later as narrated in Exodus 4 vs 24-26

Wasn't it obvious in the context for which I brought up the circumcision matter? Moses did not have to be a model Israeli (A model Israelite ought to have his son(s) circumcised) before he encountered the Creator

Whoever the Creator wants to encounter, HE will encounter.

Kobojunkie:
1. I knew the number was higher than 400(counting the fact that Joseph was the first descendant of Jacob(Israel) who supposedly arrived in Egypt, became a prisoner, and later a governor all before his family came to join him much later). That is the reason why I stated that it was towards 500— no rounding attempted— instead of exactly 400.

2. There is nothing holier than thou here since that concept only applies as far as you religious folks are concerned. I am simply interested in the written facts in the book versus the many tales traded by you religious folks.

3. I don't walk around with exact values in my head, but the one thing I am certain of is that religious takes never line up with what is stated in the book.

But you totally expected it from me to walk around with exact values in my head?

NomoreKobo:
➜I mentioned the uncircumcision of his son, to explain the fact/reality that because the Will of the Creator was at hand in his life; the circumcision of his son became a secondary issue (at that point in time)-
➜The burning bush encounter had to happen, the issue of circumcision was to be dealt with later as narrated in Exodus 4 vs 24-26
➜Wasn't it obvious in the context for which I brought up the circumcision matter? Moses did not have to be a model Israeli (A model Israelite ought to have his son(s) circumcised) before he encountered the Creator
➜Whoever the Creator wants to encounter, HE will encounter.

1. An arbitrary will or a stated will? Where is this WIll you speakof recorded? I showed earlier that what YHWH instead said was that a man who rejects the command to be circumcized would be cut off from the people. Also, why is it now considered a secondary issue?

2. You claim the burning bush had to happen. And I am asking you why? According to Israelite Scripture, that which is unholy cannot approach that which is Holy. Moses had to have attained holiness for Him to walk Holy ground is what I said before you decide to bring up the circumcision issue against him. Remember?

3. Where in Israelite Scripture is this idea of a model israelite defined? Be specific!

4. This may be according to your religion, but Israelite Scripture instead has it that YHWH, the creator in Israelite Scripture, took upon Himself the title of God of Isreal, asserting that every one of His dealings with men would be in regards to His chosen people, Israel. So, maybe the creator of your own religion can encounter anyone but the creator who took on the title God of Israel said otherwise.

NomoreKobo:
➜But you totally expected it from me to walk around with exact values in my head?

I don't, and I also don't expect you to make claims such as the one you made earlier, either.

NomoreKobo:
...
➜2: Moses encountered the burning bush while he was 80yrs olds-not his 80th birthday. Moses was 80 years old when it was the 400th year of the Israelites exile in Egypt. If Moses was 29yrs old during the 400th year of the exile. A 29yrs old Moses would have led the Israelite out of Egypt.