₦airaland Forum

Mr Antichristian,
Leaving the mundane of snatching the wife of a fellow Muslim.
A simple question for you sir!
It is you Muslims who says that the Quran is perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter from Mohammed till now.

One way of verifying this is by asking this ONE Question:


My question:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?



When you grill Muslims with facts, they pick race like cowards unfortunately, rather than face the TRUTH they wrap the LIES of their Scholars more tightly around themselves.

TenQ:
Mr Antichristian,
Leaving the mundane of snatching the wife of a fellow Muslim.
A simple question for you sir!
It is you Muslims who says that the Quran is perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter from Mohammed till now.

One way of verifying this is by asking this ONE Question:

My question:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?

Leave your God killing himself alone too! The Quran compiled by Abu Bakr is not fundamentally different in content from that revealed to Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam, but it reflects the early efforts to preserve and compile the text. Variations in recitation exist due to different qira'at, which are accepted within Islamic tradition and do not alter the essential teachings of the Quran.

When you grill Muslims with facts, they pick race like cowards unfortunately, rather than face the TRUTH they wrap the LIES of their Scholars more tightly around themselves.

When Christians are faced with the truth about their God killing himself as his own son they pick race never daring to face the truth that they are like Sango worshippers whose god had to die before people worship him!

A reliable number of non-Muslim scholars, including Orientalists and religious historians, have acknowledged the remarkable preservation of the Qur’an, both in its oral and written forms.

Scholars like Kenneth Cragg, William Montgomery Watt, and Angelika Neuwirth have pointed out that, unlike other scriptures, the Qur’an has been passed down with incredible accuracy, thanks to a strong tradition of memorization (ḥifẓ) and the early standardization efforts led by Caliph Uthman following the first compilation of the Qurab into a single Mushaf by Abu Bakr .

They argue that the Uthmanic codex we have today closely reflects what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Even those who are critical recognize that there haven’t been any significant changes to the text, making this level of preservation unparalleled among ancient writings.

This recognition, even from skeptics, underscores the Qur’an’s unique status as a well-preserved revelation in the history of humanity.


Cragg acknowledged the integrity of the Qur’anic text

Watt accepted that the Qur’an was largely preserved as it was during the Prophet Muhammad’s time.

Neuwirth acknowledges that the Qur’anic text reached a fixed form early (by late 7th century), supported by manuscript evidence.

AntiChristian:
The Quran compiled by Abu Bakr is not fundamentally different in content from that revealed to Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam, but it reflects the early efforts to preserve and compile the text. Variations in recitation exist due to different qira'at, which are accepted within Islamic tradition and do not alter the essential teachings of the Quran.

If I get it correctly, the Qur'an of Abubakar is DIFFERENT but not fundamentally Different from the Qur'an of Mohammed!


If my understanding is correct:
The Qira'at is the Style of recitation AND it should not change either the meaning or the texts of the Qur'an: do you disagree with this?

The problem is that
1. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf as Muslims has not strength to receive the Qur'an in one Ahruf. Each Ahruf may have several Qira'at of recitation.
Which of the seven Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed did Abubakar record?
2. Let's assume Abubakar chose on Ahruf of Mohammed, what happened to the other SIX Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed: are they lost?
3. Is it true that Ubbay was the best Reciter of the Four acclaimed by Mohammed? How come some of what he recited was not included in the Qur'an of Abubakar?
Sahih al-Bukhari 5005
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." Quran 2.106
4. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times or five times by a woman in the Qur'an of Abubakar?
5. So, knowing that Qira'at should not change the words of the Ahruf of the Qur'an, what was the "not fundamental" differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar?

Note:
I am examining the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

honesttalk21:
A reliable number of non-Muslim scholars, including Orientalists and religious historians, have acknowledged the remarkable preservation of the Qur’an, both in its oral and written forms.

Scholars like Kenneth Cragg, William Montgomery Watt, and Angelika Neuwirth have pointed out that, unlike other scriptures, the Qur’an has been passed down with incredible accuracy, thanks to a strong tradition of memorization (ḥifẓ) and the early standardization efforts led by Caliph Uthman following the first compilation of the Qurab into a single Mushaf by Abu Bakr .

They argue that the Uthmanic codex we have today closely reflects what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Even those who are critical recognize that there haven’t been any significant changes to the text, making this level of preservation unparalleled among ancient writings.

This recognition, even from skeptics, underscores the Qur’an’s unique status as a well-preserved revelation in the history of humanity.


Cragg acknowledged the integrity of the Qur’anic text

Watt accepted that the Qur’an was largely preserved as it was during the Prophet Muhammad’s time.

Neuwirth acknowledges that the Qur’anic text reached a fixed form early (by late 7th century), supported by manuscript evidence.

No problem, Cragg a western historian says the Qur'an of closely reflecting what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad . Closely reflecting is not perfectly reflecting

Watt accepted that the Qur’an was largely preserved as it was during the Prophet Muhammad’s time. Not Fully Preserved

Neuwirth acknowledges that the Qur’anic text reached a fixed continued to change until late 7th century. Editing of the Qur'an stopped during late 7th century

These are all evidences against perfect preservation: don't you think so?



Unfortunately,
the modern Quran closely reflecting what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad is NOT the same as IDENTICAL Qur'an.

Your claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?


As you can see, even the Qur'an of Abubakar is not identical to the Qur'an of Mohammed!

TenQ:
No problem, Craig a western historian says the Qur'an of closely reflecting what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad

Unfortunately,
the modern Quran closely reflecting what was recited by the Prophet Muhammad is NOT the same as IDENTICAL Qur'an.

Your claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?


As you can see, even the Qur'an of Abubakar is not identical to the Qur'an of Mohammed!

And your opinion is of what value in comparison? How many papers or books have been published perhaps even in peer reviewed journals by the nairaland character Tenq or the true person behind it?


Angelika Neuwirth states that there’s really no strong evidence to suggest that there was any significant disruption in the text between what the Prophet recited and the version that was compiled shortly after his passing.

Also John Burton the author of The Collection of the Qur’an also says what we have in the Qur’an today reflects what Muhammad taught and what his companions recorded.

Where is your own publication outside your fable rousing on nairaland?

The term identical refers to a binary condition—something is either identical or it isn't. On the other hand, closely reflecting suggests a range of similarity, showing a strong resemblance without requiring complete sameness.

The Qur’an as preserved across through generations is not identical in form (due to ahruf/qiraat), but it is identical in divine message, structure, meaning, and recited wording within the authorized scope.

honesttalk21:
And your opinion is of what value in comparison? How many papers or books have been published perhaps even in peer reviewed journals by the nairaland character Tenq or the true person behind it?

TenQ is not a prophet, he is a Disciple of Jesus Christ who had been saved from the punishment of Hell fire by the Love of God AND who wishes you to also be saved and freed from the Lies of your Islamic scholars.

honesttalk21:
Angelika Neuwirth states that there’s really no strong evidence to suggest that there was any significant disruption in the text between what the Prophet recited and the version that was compiled shortly after his passing.

The differences exists but not significant!
Okay!!
It therefore cannot be perfectly preserved!

honesttalk21:
Also John Burton the author of The Collection of the Qur’an also says what we have in the Qur’an today reflects what Muhammad taught and what his companions recorded.

Correct!
The Qur'an is what Mohammed taught PLUS what his disciples recorded!

This is why the Qur'an of Mohammed is different from the Qur'an of his disciples!

honesttalk21:
Where is your own publication outside your fable rousing on nairaland?

Just as yours, TenQ's publications are on www.nairaland.com/TenQ

LOL!!


Muslim scholar's claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?

honesttalk21:
..
The term identical refers to a binary condition—something is either identical or it isn't. On the other hand, closely reflecting suggests a range of similarity, showing a strong resemblance without requiring complete sameness.

The Qur’an as preserved across through generations is not identical in form (due to ahruf/qiraat), but it is identical in divine message, structure, meaning, and recited wording within the authorized scope.

This statement is much closer to the TRUTH than what is peddled by your Islamic Scholars.

Every ancient text before the age of printing MUST have variants, spelling errors, missing words, additional words etc because the writers are human and unintentional mistakes.


BUT, there is ANOTHER problem!
This is NOT expected for the Qur'an because Allah himself promised to protect the Qur'an by himself!

Did Allah's Promise of protecting the Qur'an fail?

TenQ:
TenQ is not a prophet, he is a Disciple of Jesus Christ who had been saved from the punishment of Hell fire by the Love of God AND who wishes you to also be saved and freed from the Lies of your Islamic scholars.


The differences exists but not significant!
Okay!!
It therefore cannot be perfectly preserved!



Correct!
The Qur'an is what Mohammed taught PLUS what his disciples recorded!

This is why the Qur'an of Mohammed is different from the Qur'an of his disciples!


Just as yours, TenQ's publications are on www.nairaland.com/TenQ

LOL!!


Muslim scholar's claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?

Ouch that must really hurt to eventually accept your mortal imperfection. So sad that the acclaimed disciple creates a problem because outside Christianity how do you equate Christ to Jesus? Islam clearly says Al-Masih is a messenger to the Israelites in Quran 3:45-49 and your book in Matthew 15:24 has Jesus say I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Please who exactly is the Christ? It seems more from Greek rather than the original language of Yeshua.

P.S where did Jesus tell you to identify as Christian.


Now the term identical is used in a theological context, particularly when it comes to preserving the message.

On the other hand, closely reflecting acknowledges the valid and divinely approved variations in recitation, known as qiraat and ahruf.

I believe you agree to some extent with the hadiths that speak on ahruf.

Both interpretations are valid, depending on the perspective you choose to take.

TenQ:
It seems that a Muslim mod is part of the Christian

Ok, it seems it wasn't deleted. Not yet anyway. Let me now add this.

So Mr Jimrohn everything is kill, kill, kill. Add to that sanctioned pedophilia and total subjugation of women, and you're wondering why anyone would be in such religion. Just the thought of your 54-year-old founder skeping ith an 11-year-old child! Now, it's understandable that you were born into it and would be killed if you dare leave, but to be actually defending it?! My bros na wa for you o

TenQ:
Correct!
The Qur'an is what Mohammed taught PLUS what his disciples recorded!

Deficit understanding the disciples recorded the recitation of the prophet first in his presence over a span of 23 years then these were compiled in one place.

Uthman later standardised the recitation however this did not eliminate the dialectic and diacritic variants due to the strong ijma.

Nothing lost or added to the Quran finally revised with Muhammad pbuh by Jibril ra.

honesttalk21:
Ouch that must really hurt to eventually accept your mortal imperfection. So sad that the acclaimed disciple creates a problem because outside Christianity how do you equate Christ to Jesus? Islam clearly says Al-Masih is a messenger to the Israelites in Quran 3:45-49 and your book in Matthew 15:24 has Jesus say I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Please who exactly is the Christ? It seems more from Greek rather than the original language of Yeshua.

P.S where did Jesus tell you to identify as Christian.


Now the term identical is used in a theological context, particularly when it comes to preserving the message.

On the other hand, closely reflecting acknowledges the valid and divinely approved variations in recitation, known as qiraat and ahruf.

I believe you agree to some extent with the hadiths that speak on ahruf.

Both interpretations are valid, depending on the perspective you choose to take.

Too bad!
Your evidences worked against you!

Muslim scholar's claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?

TenQ:
It seems that a Muslim mod is part of the Christian section of Nairaland as some of the deletions are not from Nairaland bots but by humans.

I have tested it with screenshots of my post: guess what!? It was deleted. That was the evidence I needed to have.

Any FACT they don't want others to see (especially Muslims), they delete!

Sadly perhaps you and the author of the post you replied to are limited in your thoughts. The idea that if everyone were Christian, there would be no religious wars may seem logical on the surface, but history and human nature suggest otherwise.

Throughout history, even within the Christian faith, wars have broken out, showing us that just because people share beliefs doesn’t mean they’ll live in harmony.

Take the Thirty Years' War, for instance; a devastating clash between Catholics and Protestants in Europe that led to millions of deaths and widespread destruction. It’s a stark reminder of how differences in theology can spiral into violence.

The English Civil War is another example, revealing the deep divide between Anglicans and Puritans, which resulted in chaos and bloodshed. And let’s not forget the Crusades; during the Fourth Crusade, Christians infamously sacked Constantinople, a significant Christian city. These instances highlight a crucial point: religious identity doesn’t prevent conflict; in fact, it often deepens the divides that can lead to war.

TenQ:
Too bad!
Your evidences worked against you!

Muslim scholar's claim is the perfect preservation of the Qur'an's letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!
Is this claim TRUE?

Of course it is from the time the marks were introduced taking care of the evolution of this.

Remember these marks helped to ensure proper pronounciation was maintained inline with the recitation Quran.

QuinQQ:
You nailed it! BTW that post has been deleted. Good thing you responded to it before it was deleted. Definitely a human deleted it and may also delete this one

I actually suspected that it would be deleated, that was why I quickly responded. I wouldnt be supprised if the person you are chatting with is the mod himself. Islam!!!!

Confirmed: It is actually a MOD pretending to be a nairaland bot!


@Seun,
I don't know if you will read this,
A Muslim moderator has been given oversight powers on posts made on Christian section of Nairaland: and he is fond of deleting any post that he doesn't like even when it is not contradicting any nairaland rules.
An example is the post: https://www.nairaland.com/post/135769259


Cc Lalasticlala Nlfpmod Mynd44 Seun Mynd44

honesttalk21:
Deficit understanding the disciples recorded the recitation of the prophet first in his presence over a span of 23 years then these were compiled in one place.

Uthman later standardised the recitation however this did not eliminate the dialectic and diacritic variants due to the strong ijma.

Nothing lost or added to the Quran finally revised with Muhammad pbuh by Jibril ra.

The truth is working against you bro!

Your evidence said:
The Qur'an is what Mohammed taught PLUS what his disciples recorded!

Did you not say:
"Also John Burton the author of The Collection of the Qur’an also says what we have in the Qur’an today reflects what Muhammad taught and what his companions recorded."

honesttalk21:
Of course it is from the time the marks were introduced taking care of the evolution of this.

Remember these marks helped to ensure proper pronounciation was maintained inline with the recitation Quran.

Then you should be able to answer the question:
Was the Qur'an of Abubakar (by recitation) IDENTICAL with the Qur'an (by recitation) COLLECTED by Mohammed?

Both were without marks nor dots nor diacritical marks!

honesttalk21:
Ouch that must really hurt to eventually accept your mortal imperfection. So sad that the acclaimed disciple creates a problem because outside Christianity how do you equate Christ to Jesus? Islam clearly says Al-Masih is a messenger to the Israelites in Quran 3:45-49 and your book in Matthew 15:24 has Jesus say I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Please who exactly is the Christ? It seems more from Greek rather than the original language of Yeshua.

P.S where did Jesus tell you to identify as Christian.


Now the term identical is used in a theological context, particularly when it comes to preserving the message.

On the other hand, closely reflecting acknowledges the valid and divinely approved variations in recitation, known as qiraat and ahruf.

I believe you agree to some extent with the hadiths that speak on ahruf.

Both interpretations are valid, depending on the perspective you choose to take.

Can you as a muslim differentiate between qiraat and ahruf?

honesttalk21:
..
The term identical refers to a binary condition—something is either identical or it isn't. On the other hand, closely reflecting suggests a range of similarity, showing a strong resemblance without requiring complete sameness.

The Qur’an as preserved across through generations is not identical in form (due to ahruf/qiraat), but it is identical in divine message, structure, meaning, and recited wording within the authorized scope.

This statement is much closer to the TRUTH than what is peddled by your Islamic Scholars.

Every ancient text before the age of printing MUST have variants, spelling errors, missing words, additional words etc because the writers are human and unintentional mistakes.


BUT, there is ANOTHER problem!
This is NOT expected for the Qur'an because Allah himself promised to protect the Qur'an by himself!

Did Allah's Promise of protecting the Qur'an fail?

honesttalk21:
Sadly perhaps you and the author of the post you replied to are limited in your thoughts. The idea that if everyone were Christian, there would be no religious wars may seem logical on the surface, but history and human nature suggest otherwise.

Throughout history, even within the Christian faith, wars have broken out, showing us that just because people share beliefs doesn’t mean they’ll live in harmony.

Take the Thirty Years' War, for instance; a devastating clash between Catholics and Protestants in Europe that led to millions of deaths and widespread destruction. It’s a stark reminder of how differences in theology can spiral into violence.

The English Civil War is another example, revealing the deep divide between Anglicans and Puritans, which resulted in chaos and bloodshed. And let’s not forget the Crusades; during the Fourth Crusade, Christians infamously sacked Constantinople, a significant Christian city. These instances highlight a crucial point: religious identity doesn’t prevent conflict; in fact, it often deepens the divides that can lead to war.

We are talking of today, NOT ancient history. Nobody is talking of recorded atrocities your prophet committed, we are talking of TODAY!
Everything is kill, kill, kill! Add to that state-sanctioned pedophilia and total subjugation of women, and you're wondering why anyone would be in such religion. Just the thought of your 54-year-old founder sleeping with an 11-year-old child! Yikes! Now, it's understandable that you were born into it and would be killed if you dare leave, but to be actually defending it?! My bros na wa for you o

Mod, you are NOT fooling anyone. We KNOW yiu are the one (himan) doing most of the ad hominem bannings!

JimRohn:
Before I answer the question, which religion are you practicing?

I will not respond unless I know which side you belong.

TenQ don't mind him. He's always asking this hypocritical question. Ok, he's a Hindu. Now what?
Next, he'll bring up ancient history. Comparing apples and cars. Comparing peace-focused Christianity to a religion that has always been bloody, that has been very bloody from it's inception till today!

Do you promise to continue with the debate if I tell you the answer to your Question?

JimRohn:
Before I answer the question, which religion are you practicing?

I will not respond unless I know which side you belong.

I think you should know the answer to this question
I am NOT an Atheist,
I am not a Buddhist
I am not an African Traditional Religionist
I am not an ECK or Grail Message Adherent
I am not a Humanist
I am certainly not a Muslim

I will NOW answer your Question and even MORE:
I am one of those Saved by the Lord Jesus Christ
I Follow the Lord Jesus Christ and thus completely subject to Him
I Serve the Lord Jesus Christ with my Being, Time, Substance and Energy
I Live my life to Please the Lord Jesus Christ in obedience to His will
I am one of many of Christ's Disciple here on Earth
I am NOT even a Pastor or Evangelist at any level!
I guess this should answer your core Question.

My Assignment:
My assignment is to go everywhere to preach the Gospel to ALL Creations so that those who Believe would be saved as those who refuse to Believe are condemned already.
Mark 16:15-16
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


Why I Engage Muslims everywhere (including on Nairaland)?
1. Because many of them have innocently believed a lie that will take them to Hell fire.
2. They cannot receive nor comprehend the Gospel of Salvation UNTIL the virus of their Islamic Scholars lies are removed

I almost recited the shahada years ago (through Ahmed Deedat) until my eyes were opened to see the depth of lies propagated by the Scholars of Islam to paint it as beautiful and of God. If you can go to Islamic sources, and read exactly what they say, you will find the truth about Islam: thus I made it a mission not just to understand Islam but to understand my "initial Christian" faith.

QuinQQ:
TenQ don't mind him. He's always asking this hypocritical question. Ok, he's a Hindu. Now what?
Next, he'll bring up ancient history. Comparing apples and cars. Comparing peace-focused Christianity to a religion that has always been bloody, that has been very bloody from it's inception till today!

He had fled my quizzle before as he doesn't like anyone using magnifying glass on their Quran, Hadiths and Sira!
He thinks that Repeating the Same Question without reasoning and engaging with the Arguments make him correct.

Anyone who is not towing the line with his Islamic Scholars are unreasonable and has a deliberate misrepresentation of Islamic sources, a misunderstanding of what words mean, where your entire reply is built on linguistic games, misrepresentation of Islamic history, where ones entire reply rests on a foundation of shallow linguistic pedantry, selective hadith quoting, and a gross misreading of Islamic history, text transmission, and scholarly consensus.

He fled as I began to show him evidences from the Hadiths and Quran that he couldn't deny!

I guess he thinks he can change the subject to something else: lets see!