₦airaland Forum

honesttalk21:
Oh you are now changing your tone as you are unable to understand it yourself and constituting yourself into a monstrous nuisance? Sorry it won't work. You even clearly lie in black and white as you have been doing (ten years later?) So you are just displaying oral diarrhoea when you refer to it in your responses?
Go and deeply study it yourself first then ask humbly and nicely about what confuses you.



What is the problem? You now start to feign why the particular four were recognised and their individual strengths on the Quran? Please go and restudy why or keep shut and stop feigning deep knowledge as you are actually ignorant.

You overstate the truth. Was Ubay discarded or it was agreed and known what was or wasn't actually part of the Quran and what was a separate supplication?

Your analogy with Soyinka is faulty but not unexpected. Kindly tell who the higher and revered authority Soyinka learnt from.



Now you are hopelessly getting confused. Firsr go and understand the meaning of the Quran verse you shared then explain why you refer to it but don't accept Quran 15:9 Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur’an and indeed, We will be its guardian? Seems you are now getting terribly desperate and confused.



Clearly showing your poor understanding of what you pride yourself authoritatively in ignorance.



Sadly you are pathetically now confused.
Ubayy ibn Kaʿb was known for his remarkable ability to memorize the Quran, making him one of the top four reciters during the time of the Prophet. But just like anyone else, he too could experience moments of forgetfulness. The fact that was acknowledged even by the Prophet pbuh himself



This answer as stated is deferred to a later time. Can you build a house without first building the foundation?


Your following repeated questions though now rephrased show you have started restudying the Ahruf and Qiraat. Don't be in a hurry but patiently study and learn.

You didn't address his questions. All what you did was to either evade or avoid it entirely, blaming semantics and quipping that he should study "Arabic" deeper.

Maybe if you had a better refutation it would have been pleasant, instead of wasting everybody's time beating around the bush!

It's straightforward, even one of your scholars, imam, admitted on YouTube that the issue of ahruf and qiraat gets complicated and hard to reconcile with and it's a sensitive topic not to be discussed about in public👀—obviously because it destroys your perfect preservation argument!

This is the 21st century, the argument of "perfect preservation" has been refuted, it's no longer a valid argument that substantiates Islamic claims! This along with scientific evidences of the Quran are stale claims! No one takes it seriously, a simple query is enough to resolve an intellectual mind that the Quran was not perfectly preserved which besmears Allah's words 👀 for preservation!

JimRohn:
TenQ,

You are a descendant of fabricators—falsehood runs in your blood. I never expected sincerity or intellect from someone whose lineage is soaked in deceit.

This is because you never knew I had EVIDENCES piled up for your Claims of the letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark IDENTICAL nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

Now, fear catch you and you want to flee.

Don't forget, the last thing you asked me was about my RELIGION! What have I said since I answered that question?

Summary:
FEAR has overwhelmed you and instead of seeking the Truth, what do you do?

JimRohn:
I stopped responding because Islam teaches us not to waste words on the ignorant. As Allah says: 'And when the ignorant address them, they say words of peace' (Qur'an 25:63).

The difference between us is while you peddle your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE, I give you EVIDENCEs that show that the Standard Islamic Narrative was a fraud from the beginning.

In the court of Law, questions and evidences are used in determining who is speaking the truth. Unfortunately, here your religion failed.

Islam thrives only when people choose NOT to ask questions nor think about the information they have received.

JimRohn:
But make no mistake—any person of reason who reads our exchange will see who is truly misguided and mentally bankrupt. And it’s not me.

Truth stands clear from error (Qur’an 2:256), and you are the embodiment of that error.

Anyone who reads this our debate will conclude that Islam was beaten hands down with EVIDENCES from their Religious Books.


For your Information
This is just ONE Claim of mine, not TWO claims. You did not even reach claim two before throwing in the towel.

I invite you to the Messiah for your salvation. You have been Deceive by the Al-Makr and your scholars. What else are they hiding from you?

Islam hates scrutiny because it always breaks down when questioned. The debate was to be just between you and I but here you are fleeing.





In the case you forgot where we started from, I will quote it below
I am holding you up to your words.

Do you promise to continue with the debate if I tell you the answer to your Question?

JimRohn:
Before I answer the question, which religion are you practicing?

I will not respond unless I know which side you belong.

I think you should know the answer to this question
I am NOT an Atheist,
I am not a Buddhist
I am not an African Traditional Religionist
I am not an ECK or Grail Message Adherent
I am not a Humanist
I am certainly not a Muslim

I will NOW answer your Question and even MORE:
I am one of those Saved by the Lord Jesus Christ
I Follow the Lord Jesus Christ and thus completely subject to Him
I Serve the Lord Jesus Christ with my Being, Time, Substance and Energy
I Live my life to Please the Lord Jesus Christ in obedience to His will
I am one of many of Christ's Disciple here on Earth
I am NOT even a Pastor or Evangelist at any level!
I guess this should answer your core Question.

My Assignment:
My assignment is to go everywhere to preach the Gospel to ALL Creations so that those who Believe would be saved as those who refuse to Believe are condemned already.
Mark 16:15-16
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


Why I Engage Muslims everywhere (including on Nairaland)?
1. Because many of them have innocently believed a lie that will take them to Hell fire.
2. They cannot receive nor comprehend the Gospel of Salvation UNTIL the virus of their Islamic Scholars lies are removed

I almost recited the shahada years ago (through Ahmed Deedat) until my eyes were opened to see the depth of lies propagated by the Scholars of Islam to paint it as beautiful and of God. If you can go to Islamic sources, and read exactly what they say, you will find the truth about Islam: thus I made it a mission not just to understand Islam but to understand my "initial Christian" faith.

honesttalk21:
Oh you are now changing your tone as you are unable to understand it yourself and constituting yourself into a monstrous nuisance? Sorry it won't work. You even clearly lie in black and white as you have been doing (ten years later?) So you are just displaying oral diarrhoea when you refer to it in your responses?
Go and deeply study it yourself first then ask humbly and nicely about what confuses you.



What is the problem? You now start to feign why the particular four were recognised and their individual strengths on the Quran? Please go and restudy why or keep shut and stop feigning deep knowledge as you are actually ignorant.

You overstate the truth. Was Ubay discarded or it was agreed and known what was or wasn't actually part of the Quran and what was a separate supplication?

Your analogy with Soyinka is faulty but not unexpected. Kindly tell who the higher and revered authority Soyinka learnt from.



Now you are hopelessly getting confused. Firsr go and understand the meaning of the Quran verse you shared then explain why you refer to it but don't accept Quran 15:9 Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur’an and indeed, We will be its guardian? Seems you are now getting terribly desperate and confused.



Clearly showing your poor understanding of what you pride yourself authoritatively in ignorance.



Sadly you are pathetically now confused.
Ubayy ibn Kaʿb was known for his remarkable ability to memorize the Quran, making him one of the top four reciters during the time of the Prophet. But just like anyone else, he too could experience moments of forgetfulness. The fact that was acknowledged even by the Prophet pbuh himself



This answer as stated is deferred to a later time. Can you build a house without first building the foundation?


Your following repeated questions though now rephrased show you have started restudying the Ahruf and Qiraat. Don't be in a hurry but patiently study and learn.

All you do is to refuse to answer direct questions as they contradict your standard Islamic narratives.
1. You cannot with boldness differentiate between Ahruf and Qira'at
2. You cannot explain why you neglect the recitation of your best Qur'an reciter
3. You cannot explain how Allah promised Mohammed that he would not forget the Qur'an but here you says even Mohammed forgets the Qur'an: a contradiction you are yet to explain.
4. The Standard Islamic says that the Qur'an was perfectly memorised, because the Eis a RECITATION but what the evidence you are giving says is that both Mohammed and Ubayy forgot parts of the Qur'an. This is a self defeating argument of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
5. You couldn't explain if abrogated verses of the Qur'an were in the Kalam Allah in paradise
6. You couldn't tell me what happened to the verse on breastfeeding an adult man ten times
7. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf but SIX miraculously vanished without any explanation from you and you still think that 1/7 is a pass mark!


When LIES go on for a thousand years, it doesn't take a day for the TRUTH to catch up with it. Your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE is a lie sir. This is why with scrutiny, the narratives break down.

And this is just one claim against the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

QuinQ:
My post was deleted and I was banned as usual. This is it for me guys. I'm out. Goodluck to you and TenQ.
Seun goodluck with your forum

Your ignorance is only matched by your arrogance.

If your understanding of Islam comes from fiction like The Satanic Verses, then you’re clearly not seeking truth, just peddling hate. That book is a work of slander, not scholarship, and its author was never a “devout Muslim” — he was a provocateur who sold lies to appease a Western audience with anti-Muslim bias.

You casually throw around vile accusations like “pedophilic” and “misogynistic” without understanding Islamic law, history, or context — typical behavior of someone too cowardly to face Muslims with honest questions, so you resort to insults.

Your own tradition, Shintoism, with its state-sponsored war cult history and emperor-worship, is no moral high ground either. But I won’t stoop further.

This is my last response to you. I don’t debate with people who trade in slander instead of substance. Enjoy your echo chamber of ignorance.

TenQ:
All you do is to refuse to answer direct questions as they contradict your standard Islamic narratives.
1. You cannot with boldness differentiate between Ahruf and Qira'at
2. You cannot explain why you neglect the recitation of your best Qur'an reciter
3. You cannot explain how Allah promised Mohammed that he would not forget the Qur'an but here you says even Mohammed forgets the Qur'an: a contradiction you are yet to explain.
4. The Standard Islamic says that the Qur'an was perfectly memorised, because the Eis a RECITATION but what the evidence you are giving says is that both Mohammed and Ubayy forgot parts of the Qur'an. This is a self defeating argument of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
5. You couldn't explain if abrogated verses of the Qur'an were in the Kalam Allah in paradise
6. You couldn't tell me what happened to the verse on breastfeeding an adult man ten times
7. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf but SIX miraculously vanished without any explanation from you and you still think that 1/7 is a pass mark!


When LIES go on for a thousand years, it doesn't take a day for the TRUTH to catch up with it. Your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE is a lie sir. This is why with scrutiny, the narratives break down.

And this is just one claim against the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

Jumping to other direct questions before the preceding questions are answered?

Very simply you rush in other questions to avoid accepting your initial proposition or thinking is wrong.

You are unable to discern that the compilation under Abu Bakr accommodated the various styles and tongues then Usman standardised to the best of his ability to one inorder reduce misunderstanding and misinterpretation?

The most reknown professors despite their excellence are not immune to forgetting even for a brief time. This is perfectly human and natural.

Simply say you are yet unable to differentiate from your short study and are too overwhelmed or more likely not interested in accepting the folly in your stand point so far.
Don't accept or agree with the preservation of the Quran it will not be any different from your previous deliberate acts to reject the truth.

If you like study and know and if not no matter what you are told you will keep bringing silly arguments in refutation.

I have asked you show precisely authentic reference for your statement *the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims*

honesttalk21:
You are examining the letter for letter, dot for dot etc. on what exact premise though?

Gabrielshow24:
You didn't address his questions. All what you did was to either evade or avoid it entirely, blaming semantics and quipping that he should study "Arabic" deeper.

Perhaps because the discussion isn't primarily with you could you truly say where in my response to Tenq I asked him to study Arabic deeper

honesttalk21:
Jumping to other direct questions before the preceding questions are answered?

Very simply you rush in other questions to avoid accepting your initial proposition or thinking is wrong.

You are unable to discern that the compilation under Abu Bakr accommodated the various styles and tongues then Usman standardised to the best of his ability to one inorder reduce misunderstanding and misinterpretation?

The most reknown professors despite their excellence are not immune to forgetting even for a brief time. This is perfectly human and natural.

Simply say you are yet unable to differentiate from your short study and are too overwhelmed or more likely not interested in accepting the folly in your stand point so far.
Don't accept or agree with the preservation of the Quran it will not be any different from your previous deliberate acts to reject the truth.

If you like study and know and if not no matter what you are told you will keep bringing silly arguments in refutation.

All these are no new Questions: they were questions you refused to answer.
So, here again!
All you do is to refuse to answer direct questions as they contradict your standard Islamic narratives.
1. You cannot with boldness differentiate between Ahruf and Qira'at
2. You cannot explain why you neglect the recitation of your best Qur'an reciter
3. You cannot explain how Allah promised Mohammed that he would not forget the Qur'an but here you says even Mohammed forgets the Qur'an: a contradiction you are yet to explain.
4. The Standard Islamic says that the Qur'an was perfectly memorised, because the Eis a RECITATION but what the evidence you are giving says is that both Mohammed and Ubayy forgot parts of the Qur'an. This is a self defeating argument of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
5. You couldn't explain if abrogated verses of the Qur'an were in the Kalam Allah in paradise
6. You couldn't tell me what happened to the verse on breastfeeding an adult man ten times
7. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf but SIX miraculously vanished without any explanation from you and you still think that 1/7 is a pass mark!


When LIES go on for a thousand years, it doesn't take a day for the TRUTH to catch up with it. Your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE is a lie sir. This is why with scrutiny, the narratives break down.

And this is just one claim against the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

honesttalk21:
I have asked you show precisely authentic reference for your statement *the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims*

My claim is about what YOU Muslims say about the Qur'an's perfect preservation and not what Mohammed or Allah said.
Evidences
1. JimRohn (with whom I opened this thread

JimRohn:
Thank you for your questions. I welcome the opportunity to clarify the Islamic position on the Qur’an’s preservation.
......
2. How would I phrase my claim about the preservation of the Qur’an?

Here is the precise claim I stand by:

> “The Qur’an as we have it today is textually identical in its wording to the Qur’an recited and taught by Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, letter for letter, word for word — preserved through mass memorization (ṭawātur) and manuscript transmission without alteration in core text since the time of revelation.”

2. Muslim Dawah Guys like Monsur and Farid


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLOWrLKJoSU?si=JD0Ara-iY9oF09x9
Muslim Dawah Guys like Mohammed Hijab who later changed his mind about this claim


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVM5mYOQjIY?si=H0ovXSLlledx7hNS

3. Muslim Dawah Guys like Zakir Naik


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIKR2exROTk?si=In4Q7ko3GpT15hQT

4. Muslim Dawah Guys like Mansur


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qclEhVs12Y?si=D5Ttd8QRMBUh_qgK

TenQ:
All these are no new Questions: they were questions you refused to answer.
So, here again!
All you do is to refuse to answer direct questions as they contradict your standard Islamic narratives.
1. You cannot with boldness differentiate between Ahruf and Qira'at
2. You cannot explain why you neglect the recitation of your best Qur'an reciter
3. You cannot explain how Allah promised Mohammed that he would not forget the Qur'an but here you says even Mohammed forgets the Qur'an: a contradiction you are yet to explain.
4. The Standard Islamic says that the Qur'an was perfectly memorised, because the Eis a RECITATION but what the evidence you are giving says is that both Mohammed and Ubayy forgot parts of the Qur'an. This is a self defeating argument of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
5. You couldn't explain if abrogated verses of the Qur'an were in the Kalam Allah in paradise
6. You couldn't tell me what happened to the verse on breastfeeding an adult man ten times
7. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf but SIX miraculously vanished without any explanation from you and you still think that 1/7 is a pass mark!


When LIES go on for a thousand years, it doesn't take a day for the TRUTH to catch up with it. Your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE is a lie sir. This is why with scrutiny, the narratives break down.

And this is just one claim against the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!




My claim is about what YOU Muslims say about the Qur'an's perfect preservation and not what Mohammed or Allah said.
Evidences
1. JimRohn (with whom I opened this thread


2. Muslim Dawah Guys like Monsur and Farid


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLOWrLKJoSU?si=JD0Ara-iY9oF09x9
Muslim Dawah Guys like Mohammed Hijab who later changed his mind about this claim


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVM5mYOQjIY?si=H0ovXSLlledx7hNS

3. Muslim Dawah Guys like Zakir Naik


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIKR2exROTk?si=In4Q7ko3GpT15hQT

4. Muslim Dawah Guys like Mansur


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qclEhVs12Y?si=D5Ttd8QRMBUh_qgK

They aren't new. They are the following questions you use to reject previous adequate answers.

I see you now can no longer express yourself and resort to YouTube videos. Why don't you concisely say what you garnered from the videos?

The videos rightly stress the Qur’an’s remarkable preservation.

The preservation of the Qur'an is praised for its remarkable fidelity through centuries.

You should understand that this preservation necessitates critical qualifications. Foremost is the original rasm in Arabic scrip lacked dots and vowels, leading to a spectrum of interpretations in the early texts. Moreover, while aḥruf (modes) and qirāʾāt (readings) reflect variations within the tradition, they should not be confused with discrepancies; they embody a rich diversity rather than contradictions.

Lastly, the concept of perfect preservation pertains specifically to the authentic text and recitation as established post-Uthman, excluding potential early variants and pre-Uthmanic orthography that may exist.

I see no need answering at this time other questions you probably hope to divert attention from the key initial question of preservation.

You also point to a statement from JimRohn you never scrutinised or cross checked for its origin and reference? This is very unlike how you argue and try to point falsehood at other people's statements

honesttalk21:
They aren't new. They are the following questions you use to reject previous adequate answers.

I see you now can no longer express yourself and resort to YouTube videos. Why don't you concisely say what you garnered from the videos?

The videos rightly stress the Qur’an’s remarkable preservation.

The preservation of the Qur'an is praised for its remarkable fidelity through centuries.

You should understand that this preservation necessitates critical qualifications. Foremost is the original rasm in Arabic scrip lacked dots and vowels, leading to a spectrum of interpretations in the early texts. Moreover, while aḥruf (modes) and qirāʾāt (readings) reflect variations within the tradition, they should not be confused with discrepancies; they embody a rich diversity rather than contradictions.

Lastly, the concept of perfect preservation pertains specifically to the authentic text and recitation as established post-Uthman, excluding potential early variants and pre-Uthmanic orthography that may exist.

I see no need answering at this time other questions you probably hope to divert attention from the key initial question of preservation.

You also point to a statement from JimRohn you never scrutinised or cross checked for its origin and reference? This is very unlike how you argue and try to point falsehood at other people's statements

See excuses!

To answer direct questions is a problem for you because your answers would betray the lies you have accepted.

You are not even willing to acknowledge the response to answers to your own question because it betrays your views.

The Mantra of Islam seems to be:
Don't confuse me with the TRUTH because I have already made up my mind.

You would follow the consensus of your Scholars and anyone who claims knowledge than both Mohammed and Allah together.

This is your problem:
Never acknowledging the TRUTH no matter the evidence given.

You asked me to show you where I got the letter for letter and dot for dot claim of Muslims for the preservation of the Qur'an.
1. I quoted JimRohn directly, to you it wasn't enough
2. I then buffered it up by giving you Dawah Guys on YouTube so that you can use your own ears to hear from their mouths: but apparently, you don't care.

Just like the Scientific Miracles of the Qur'an had been debunked, the word for word, dot for dot preservation of the Qur'an is debunked.


Interestingly,
We are just on my first Rebuttal !

If you could not withstand the first, how will you be able to survive the second.


Jn 8:32:
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."


Come to the Messiah for the Gift of Salvation and stop holding on to lies of Islam

TenQ:
See excuses!

To answer direct questions is a problem for you because your answers would betray the lies you have accepted.

You are not even willing to acknowledge the response to answers to your own question because it betrays your views.

The Mantra of Islam seems to be:
Don't confuse me with the TRUTH because I have already made up my mind.

You would follow the consensus of your Scholars and anyone who claims knowledge than both Mohammed and Allah together.

This is your problem:
Never acknowledging the TRUTH no matter the evidence given.

You asked me to show you where I got the letter for letter and dot for dot claim of Muslims for the preservation of the Qur'an.
1. I quoted JimRohn directly, to you it wasn't enough
2. I then buffered it up by giving you Dawah Guys on YouTube so that you can use your own ears to hear from their mouths: but apparently, you don't care.

Just like the Scientific Miracles of the Qur'an had been debunked, the word for word, dot for dot preservation of the Qur'an is debunked.


Interestingly,
We are just on my first Rebuttal !

If you could not withstand the first, how will you be able to survive the second.


Jn 8:32:
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."


Come to the Messiah for the Gift of Salvation and stop holding on to lies of Islam

You now close your response with your true intent which is that I follow your belief system.

So you see you are not disproving the points in my response because in reality you have no valuable argument against them.

I addressed your YouTube video unless you want to point out actual statements in any of the videos that disagree with my summation.

You see your characteristic nature once flawed to run to another baseless argument. Your claims in science inadequacies have been severally addressed and your usual misunderstanding shown to you.

Don't use this last statement to start another futile discussion with you. I don't have time for that anymore so please stay happy in your misinformed disillusion passed and copied from your fellow apologists.

honesttalk21:
You now close your response with your true intent which is that I follow your belief system.

My intentions had never been to win arguments with Muslims but to make them open their eyes to the falsehood they have believed. Only after uninstalling the virus of Islam can a new Operating System based on the truth of the Gospel is salvation be installed.

honesttalk21:
So you see you are not disproving the points in my response because in reality you have no valuable argument against them.

See the thief calling the owner of the house a thief!

You that couldn't answer any questions and who I bombarded with evidence after evidence turning around to say I didn't disprove your point!?

Is the Qur'an of Mohammed by recitation EXACTLY the same as the Qur'an of Abubakar by recitation?
A question you cannot answer with a simple YES or NO!
SMH!!

honesttalk21:
I addressed your YouTube video unless you want to point out actual statements in any of the videos that disagree with my summation.

You did not address the YouTube videos as you never commented that EACH of the Muslims Dawah men said that the Qur'an was word for word AND letter for letter IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed.

honesttalk21:
You see your characteristic nature once flawed to run to another baseless argument. Your claims in science inadequacies have been severally addressed and your usual misunderstanding shown to you.

Don't use this last statement to start another futile discussion with you. I don't have time for that anymore so please stay happy in your misinformed disillusion passed and copied from your fellow apologists.

Answer my questions and stop running from the truth as this attitude wouldn't help you.


All these are no new Questions: they were questions you refused to answer.
So, here again!
All you do is to refuse to answer direct questions as they contradict your standard Islamic narratives.
1. You cannot with boldness differentiate between Ahruf and Qira'at
2. You cannot explain why you neglect the recitation of your best Qur'an reciter
3. You cannot explain how Allah promised Mohammed that he would not forget the Qur'an but here you says even Mohammed forgets the Qur'an: a contradiction you are yet to explain.
4. The Standard Islamic says that the Qur'an was perfectly memorised, because the Eis a RECITATION but what the evidence you are giving says is that both Mohammed and Ubayy forgot parts of the Qur'an. This is a self defeating argument of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
5. You couldn't explain if abrogated verses of the Qur'an were in the Kalam Allah in paradise
6. You couldn't tell me what happened to the verse on breastfeeding an adult man ten times
7. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf but SIX miraculously vanished without any explanation from you and you still think that 1/7 is a pass mark!


When LIES go on for a thousand years, it doesn't take a day for the TRUTH to catch up with it. Your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE is a lie sir. This is why with scrutiny, the narratives break down.

And this is just one claim against the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

honesttalk21:
Perhaps because the discussion isn't primarily with you could you truly say where in my response to Tenq I asked him to study Arabic deeper

It was heavily implied 🤨. Which do you prefer that he reads the English translation, 🤔when you and your "brothers" can say, "it's not the same in Arabic"👀? Or He studies it in Arabic 👀? —The language Allah revealed his eternal word.

Hence your emphasis on "studying" hints at him "studying the Quran(deeper)"! Even moreso because of your jab that he feigned "deep Quranic" expertise 👀.

Also, these are questions that have plagued Islam since the advent of the internet👀 when all can read the sources directly instead of relying on the submission of some Alfa(sheikh) and truth be told when all these are taken side by side, holes begin to reveal in the standard narratives 🤧!

TenQ:
My intentions had never been to win arguments with Muslims but to make them open their eyes to the falsehood they have believed. Only after uninstalling the virus of Islam can a new Operating System based on the truth of the Gospel is salvation be installed.


See the thief calling the owner of the house a thief!

You that couldn't answer any questions and who I bombarded with evidence after evidence turning around to say I didn't disprove your point!?

Is the Qur'an of Mohammed by recitation EXACTLY the same as the Qur'an of Abubakar by recitation?
A question you cannot answer with a simple YES or NO!
SMH!!


You did not address the YouTube videos as you never commented that EACH of the Muslims Dawah men said that the Qur'an was word for word AND letter for letter IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed.



Answer my questions and stop running from the truth as this attitude wouldn't help you.


All these are no new Questions: they were questions you refused to answer.
So, here again!
All you do is to refuse to answer direct questions as they contradict your standard Islamic narratives.
1. You cannot with boldness differentiate between Ahruf and Qira'at
2. You cannot explain why you neglect the recitation of your best Qur'an reciter
3. You cannot explain how Allah promised Mohammed that he would not forget the Qur'an but here you says even Mohammed forgets the Qur'an: a contradiction you are yet to explain.
4. The Standard Islamic says that the Qur'an was perfectly memorised, because the Eis a RECITATION but what the evidence you are giving says is that both Mohammed and Ubayy forgot parts of the Qur'an. This is a self defeating argument of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
5. You couldn't explain if abrogated verses of the Qur'an were in the Kalam Allah in paradise
6. You couldn't tell me what happened to the verse on breastfeeding an adult man ten times
7. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf but SIX miraculously vanished without any explanation from you and you still think that 1/7 is a pass mark!


When LIES go on for a thousand years, it doesn't take a day for the TRUTH to catch up with it. Your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE is a lie sir. This is why with scrutiny, the narratives break down.

And this is just one claim against the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

First answer question one yourself and bringforth what your understanding of it negates the effective preservation of the Quran

The recitation of Ubay is not neglected.
He serves as a cornerstone of Quranic transmission, even though the final Uthmanic mushaf didn’t capture every distinct aspect of his personal codex.

You even find in the Hafs ʿan ʿĀṣim qirāʾah, which is the most commonly used today, some variations in word forms or elongations (madd) corresponding with reports attributed to Ubay.

While it's true that Prophet Muhammad may have forgotten certain parts of the Qur’an, this was either a temporary lapse that he later remembered or it was a result of divine abrogation, meaning those parts were intentionally removed from his memory. This doesn’t undermine the preservation of the Qur’an because.

Whatever verse We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?”
Qur’an 2:106

And never say about anything, ‘Indeed, I will do that tomorrow,’ except [when adding], ‘If Allah wills.’ And remember your Lord when you forget…”
Qur’an 18:23–24

Too bad your tacit forceful evangelism by castigating and faulting Islam has failed. Please go back for more training

Gabrielshow24:
It was heavily implied 🤨. Which do you prefer that he reads the English translation, 🤔when you and your "brothers" can say, "it's not the same in Arabic"👀? Or He studies it in Arabic 👀? —The language Allah revealed his eternal word.

Hence your emphasis on "studying" hints at him "studying the Quran(deeper)"! Even moreso because of your jab that he feigned "deep Quranic" expertise 👀.

Also, these are questions that have plagued Islam since the advent of the internet👀 when all can read the sources directly instead of relying on the submission of some Alfa(sheikh) and truth be told when all these are taken side by side, holes begin to reveal in the standard narratives 🤧!

Please I pointed him showing he had started studying what Ahruf and Qiraat are NOT ARABIC .

Stop confident arrogant silliness

TenQ:
My intentions had never been to win arguments with Muslims but to make them open their eyes to the falsehood they have believed. Only after uninstalling the virus of Islam can a new Operating System based on the truth of the Gospel is salvation be installed.


See the thief calling the owner of the house a thief!

You that couldn't answer any questions and who I bombarded with evidence after evidence turning around to say I didn't disprove your point!?

Is the Qur'an of Mohammed by recitation EXACTLY the same as the Qur'an of Abubakar by recitation?
A question you cannot answer with a simple YES or NO!
SMH!!


You did not address the YouTube videos as you never commented that EACH of the Muslims Dawah men said that the Qur'an was word for word AND letter for letter IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed.



Answer my questions and stop running from the truth as this attitude wouldn't help you.


All these are no new Questions: they were questions you refused to answer.
So, here again!
All you do is to refuse to answer direct questions as they contradict your standard Islamic narratives.
1. You cannot with boldness differentiate between Ahruf and Qira'at
2. You cannot explain why you neglect the recitation of your best Qur'an reciter
3. You cannot explain how Allah promised Mohammed that he would not forget the Qur'an but here you says even Mohammed forgets the Qur'an: a contradiction you are yet to explain.
4. The Standard Islamic says that the Qur'an was perfectly memorised, because the Eis a RECITATION but what the evidence you are giving says is that both Mohammed and Ubayy forgot parts of the Qur'an. This is a self defeating argument of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
5. You couldn't explain if abrogated verses of the Qur'an were in the Kalam Allah in paradise
6. You couldn't tell me what happened to the verse on breastfeeding an adult man ten times
7. Mohammed received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf but SIX miraculously vanished without any explanation from you and you still think that 1/7 is a pass mark!


When LIES go on for a thousand years, it doesn't take a day for the TRUTH to catch up with it. Your STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE is a lie sir. This is why with scrutiny, the narratives break down.

And this is just one claim against the claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

Keep up the good work. They are so indoctrinated with lies from their sheiks which are so adept at dishing lies based on audience😵‍💫. To the beginner, it's perfect preservation 👀 while to the "student of knowledge" they explain plot holes 😅. We are already used to such tactics, all these 1400 scripts don't work no more!

I will like to see if any True Muslim will provide definite answers to these👀! Even their scholars have a hard time answering these talk less of the average Muslims that doesn't even know Arabic in-depth and relies on what the "ummah" says😂. If this were so in Christianity it will be all sort of veiled insults towards us but now they suffer such!

The reason why Arabic is a must is simply because their scholars can always explain away the complexities(contradictions) by using the language 👀. It's then someone will say "Momo wonders and Allah wonders are the same😅.

The internet is the death of Islam!

honesttalk21:
Please I pointed him showing he had started studying what Ahruf and Qiraat are NOT ARABIC .

Stop confident arrogant silliness

I wonder in what languages these were revealed in? 😂😂😂

This reply is just straight up funny. It's like telling someone to study mathematics and he/she shouldn't study mathematical syntax😂.

You can't study Qiraat and ahruf if you don't have knowledge of Arabic! Except you want to argue that you hold the English translation in high esteem 😅which I am definitely sure you will still later undermine when some English translation "clysmian wonders" are shown to you!😂😂—Believe me when I say it, we have deluge-like evidences against this notion which will cause you to circumvent pretty quick and resolve to "Arabic only" 👌.

If indeed you want stand by the implication of your statement 😁! Let us know, before I start the barrage of "translational contradictions" very evident in the English versions of your sacred scriptures (hadiths included🧐)!

Gabrielshow24:
Keep up the good work. They are so indoctrinated with lies from their sheiks which are so adept at dishing lies based on audience😵‍💫. To the beginner, it's perfect preservation 👀 while to the "student of knowledge" they explain plot holes 😅. We are already used to such tactics, all these 1400 scripts don't work no more!

Thank you my brother!
Islam's problem is bigger than the indoctrination. It is a spiritual blindfolding and enslavement similar to trauma bonding. They honestly want Islam to become true at all cost. They would justify glaring errors in the Qur'an and their religion with their own conjectures to make themselves feel okay.

Gabrielshow24:
I will like to see if any True Muslim will provide definite answers to these👀! Even their scholars have a hard time answering these talk less of the average Muslims that doesn't even know Arabic in-depth and relies on what the "ummah" says😂. If this were so in Christianity it will be all sort of veiled insults towards us but now they suffer such!

JimRohn was the one who accepted a challenge based on his claim of a letter for letter, dot for dot, diacritical mark for diacritical mark identical nature of the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of today's Muslims!

He kept on presenting the Standard Islamic Narrative while I presented evidences and questions that seem to upset him.

He fled the discussion because at the rate I was going with him, he would probably loose his faith. He chose to hold tightly to his scholars opinion.

If only Muslims will ask questions!
SMH!!

Gabrielshow24:
The reason why Arabic is a must is simply because their scholars can always explain away the complexities(contradictions) by using the language 👀. It's then someone will say "Momo wonders and Allah wonders are the same😅.

The internet is the death of Islam!

Indeed, the INTERNET and lately the AI are the disaster that had befallen Islam. All the LIEs that they have been telling over years suddenly is made open to all.

We shall continue to pray for them for their Deliverance and Salvation!

honesttalk21:
First answer question one yourself and bringforth what your understanding of it negates the effective preservation of the Quran

You will never accept my definitions anyways AND I am ready to go with your definition. So, tell us the clear difference between Ahruf and Qira'at?

honesttalk21:
The recitation of Ubay is not neglected.
He serves as a cornerstone of Quranic transmission, even though the final Uthmanic mushaf didn’t capture every distinct aspect of his personal codex.

As the Best Reciter, some of what Ubayy recites was omitted from the Qur'an
As the Best Reciter, his Quran was different from that of both Abubakar and Ibn Mas'ud

honesttalk21:
You even find in the Hafs ʿan ʿĀṣim qirāʾah, which is the most commonly used today, some variations in word forms or elongations (madd) corresponding with reports attributed to Ubay.

Even after all the elimination of other Qur'an and the loss of six out of seven Ahruf of Mohammed, Hafs Qur'an is different from Warsh Qur'an and different from Al-Duri etc

The differences are in words and meanings sometimes even complete opposites. If you need EVIDENCE, I will show you.

honesttalk21:
While it's true that Prophet Muhammad may have forgotten certain parts of the Qur’an, this was either a temporary lapse that he later remembered or it was a result of divine abrogation, meaning those parts were intentionally removed from his memory. This doesn’t undermine the preservation of the Qur’an because.

1. Even though Allah promised that Mohammed would not forget the Qur'an but he forgot.
2. This argument is self defeating for the claim of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
This is evident with the Qur'an of the two best Reciters, Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy not being identical and also both different from the Qur'an of Abubakar

honesttalk21:
Whatever verse We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?”
Qur’an 2:106

And you did not notice that this is another lie of Islam demonstrated in the Qur'an!?

Let me show you
According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. Their is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

You can see, how Illogical the verses it.
It is an excuse by Mohammed for his lapses in remembrance of the Qur'an because he kept on forgetting the verses he himself had dictated to people.
This same reason was the reason for the excuse of the seven Ahruf. Mohammed will say the same verse in different ways because he couldn't remember his first version. Didn't you say that Mohammed was an uneducated man?

honesttalk21:
And never say about anything, ‘Indeed, I will do that tomorrow,’ except [when adding], ‘If Allah wills.’ And remember your Lord when you forget…”
Qur’an 18:23–24

Too bad your tacit forceful evangelism by castigating and faulting Islam has failed. Please go back for more training

If only you choose to find the TRUTH, the TRUTH will find you.

TenQ:
You will never accept my definitions anyways AND I am ready to go with your definition. So, tell us the clear difference between Ahruf and Qira'at?



As the Best Reciter, some of what Ubayy recites was omitted from the Qur'an
As the Best Reciter, his Quran was different from that of both Abubakar and Ibn Mas'ud



Even after all the elimination of other Qur'an and the loss of six out of seven Ahruf of Mohammed, Hafs Qur'an is different from Warsh Qur'an and different from Al-Duri etc

The differences are in words and meanings sometimes even complete opposites. If you need EVIDENCE, I will show you.


1. Even though Allah promised that Mohammed would not forget the Qur'an but he forgot.
2. This argument is self defeating for the claim of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an.
This is evident with the Qur'an of the two best Reciters, Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy not being identical and also both different from the Qur'an of Abubakar



And you did not notice that this is another lie of Islam demonstrated in the Qur'an!?

Let me show you
According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. Their is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

You can see, how Illogical the verses it.
It is an excuse by Mohammed for his lapses in remembrance of the Qur'an because he kept on forgetting the verses he himself had dictated to people.
This same reason was the reason for the excuse of the seven Ahruf. Mohammed will say the same verse in different ways because he couldn't remember his first version. Didn't you say that Mohammed was an uneducated man?


If only you choose to find the TRUTH, the TRUTH will find you.

One should really ignore your persistent ego driven irrational remarks and arguments despite clear proof of your folly. Your confirmation bias drawn from some degree of cognitive dissonance is unmatched even by the Devil.

Did you define or explain before sharing your clairvoyance that it will be rejected? You didn't even try and instead defer to other things to hide your shame?

The agreed best student or surgeon sometimes doesn't get all marks; why? Don't you understand why some of Ubai's Mushaf was rejected? Have you shown good reason or reasons why the rejection as part of the Quran was wrong outside a wide claim and praise that he was the best reciter?

Is the one ahruf of the seven deficient in any way? Please state what you know of that which disqualifies it from being valid adoption of thr Quran.

The different words you claim are not divine you try to claim? Then you say they are opposite in meaning.
Can you show where this occurs even if rare that the contradictory or opposite meanings are irreconcilable within context?

That is the core meaning is unchanged.
I double dare you to show that where it appears words used are semantically opposite this isnt contextually reconcilable?

Also it changes the core theological message, laws, or doctrines

Then prove it as not divinely intended to provide depth, not contradiction.

Give proof of Allah's promise to Muhammad pbuh not forgetting and how he forgot.
CATEGORICALLY SHOW THIS


Your claim of not being identical is to what degree and in which ways? Stop blabbing and show evidence.


What specifically are the differences of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubai's Quran /mushaf from Abu Bakr's.

CATEGORICALLY SHOW AND STOP YOUR FALSEHOOD FOUNDED BLABBING

Your irrational stubbornness comes to play again as you fail to do the work in study to understand and see how your conclusions are grossly flawed.

Indeed Allah's speech is an eternal attribute it's uncreated and separate from the temporary forms it takes. The essence of the Qur’an embodies this uncreated divine speech, while the specific recitations, letters, and sounds that were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh are seen as created events that unfold over time.

Think of it like a script. The Author knows every line, but during a live performance, some lines are adjusted for the audience.

Allah's eternal knowledge encompasses both the abrogated and abrogating verses.

Sorry you cannot comprehend the ways of Allah to enable the uneducated have such brilliance and intelligence.

Gabrielshow24:
I wonder in what languages these were revealed in? 😂😂😂

This reply is just straight up funny. It's like telling someone to study mathematics and he/she shouldn't study mathematical syntax😂.

You can't study Qiraat and ahruf if you don't have knowledge of Arabic! Except you want to argue that you hold the English translation in high esteem 😅which I am definitely sure you will still later undermine when some English translation "clysmian wonders" are shown to you!😂😂—Believe me when I say it, we have deluge-like evidences against this notion which will cause you to circumvent pretty quick and resolve to "Arabic only" 👌.

If indeed you want stand by the implication of your statement 😁! Let us know, before I start the barrage of "translational contradictions" very evident in the English versions of your sacred scriptures (hadiths included🧐)!

The show clown trusts translations of the Quran without knowing Arabic yet doesn't know basic concepts of Qiraat and Ahruf?

It is now convenient to hide behind a little finger claim of not knowing Arabic?

How hypocritical!

honesttalk21:
One should really ignore your persistent ego driven irrational remarks and arguments despite clear proof of your folly. Your confirmation bias drawn from some degree of cognitive dissonance is unmatched even by the Devil.

Did you define or explain before sharing your clairvoyance that it will be rejected? You didn't even try and instead defer to other things to hide your shame?

The agreed best student or surgeon sometimes doesn't get all marks; why? Don't you understand why some of Ubai's Mushaf was rejected? Have you shown good reason or reasons why the rejection as part of the Quran was wrong outside a wide claim and praise that he was the best reciter?

Is the one ahruf of the seven deficient in any way? Please state what you know of that which disqualifies it from being valid adoption of thr Quran.

The different words you claim are not divine you try to claim? Then you say they are opposite in meaning.
Can you show where this occurs even if rare that the contradictory or opposite meanings are irreconcilable within context?

That is the core meaning is unchanged.
I double dare you to show that where it appears words used are semantically opposite this isnt contextually reconcilable?

Also it changes the core theological message, laws, or doctrines

Then prove it as not divinely intended to provide depth, not contradiction.

Give proof of Allah's promise to Muhammad pbuh not forgetting and how he forgot.
CATEGORICALLY SHOW THIS


Your claim of not being identical is to what degree and in which ways? Stop blabbing and show evidence.


What specifically are the differences of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubai's Quran /mushaf from Abu Bakr's.

CATEGORICALLY SHOW AND STOP YOUR FALSEHOOD FOUNDED BLABBING

Your irrational stubbornness comes to play again as you fail to do the work in study to understand and see how your conclusions are grossly flawed.

Indeed Allah's speech is an eternal attribute it's uncreated and separate from the temporary forms it takes. The essence of the Qur’an embodies this uncreated divine speech, while the specific recitations, letters, and sounds that were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh are seen as created events that unfold over time.

Think of it like a script. The Author knows every line, but during a live performance, some lines are adjusted for the audience.

Allah's eternal knowledge encompasses both the abrogated and abrogating verses.

Sorry you cannot comprehend the ways of Allah to enable the uneducated have such brilliance and intelligence.

Don't change the subject. First answer these questions if you need responses to your new questions.

It is at least good you seem to be agreeing that the Qur'an is not word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed only that the words are created events that unfold over time and that seemingly contradictory verses with contradictory or opposite meanings are reconcilable within context
The point is that the Islamic claim is false!

According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. There is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

TenQ:
Don't change the subject. First answer these questions.

According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. There is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

Are you for real? Your barrage of questions directly or indirectly related to the preservation of the Quran are answered in my post.

It is heart breaking you show deficit capacity to discern them.

Is asking you to show proof of your claims now changing the subject?

Trapped in your lies?

honesttalk21:
Are you for real? Your barrage of questions directly or indirectly related to the preservation of the Quran are answered in my post.

It is heart breaking you show deficit capacity to discern them.

Is asking you to show proof of your claims now changing the subject?

Trapped in your lies?

You refused to answer mine

I even dropped earlier questions in other than you answer these two. But as usual, you ignored them to ask your own questions.

Please answer the two questions and I promise to answer yours with evidences from your islamic sources.


.
AGAIN:
It is at least good you seem to be agreeing that the Qur'an is not word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed only that the words are created events that unfold over time and that seemingly contradictory verses with contradictory or opposite meanings are reconcilable within context
The point is that the original Islamic claim is false!

According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. There is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

TenQ:
The differences are in words and meanings sometimes even complete opposites. If you need EVIDENCE, I will show you.

That is the core meaning is unchanged.
I double dare you to show that where it appears words used are semantically opposite this isnt contextually reconcilable?

TenQ:
You refused to answer mine

I even dropped earlier questions in other than you answer these two. But as usual, you ignored them to ask your own questions.

Please answer the two questions and I promise to answer yours with evidences from your islamic sources.


.
AGAIN:
It is at least good you seem to be agreeing that the Qur'an is not word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed only that the words are created events that unfold over time and that seemingly contradictory verses with contradictory or opposite meanings are reconcilable within context
The point is that the Islamic claim is false!

According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. There is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

If you feign blindness to your answers in my response then get a secretary and perhaps an interpreter to help you.

I stand by the fact that the Quran used by all Muslims today is identical to what was revealed to prophet Muhammad pbuh.

honesttalk21:
1. Is the one ahruf of the seven deficient in any way? Please state what you know of that which disqualifies it from being valid adoption of thr Quran.

The different words you claim are not divine you try to claim? Then you say they are opposite in meaning.

I cannot tell if the Ahruf are deficient because Muslims have not shown us ANY SEVEN Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed. My argument is not if the different Ahruf are deficient. My question is, where are the other SIX Ahruf of Mohammed as he received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf!?

honesttalk21:
2. Can you show where this occurs even if rare that the contradictory or opposite meanings are irreconcilable within context?

That is the core meaning is unchanged.
I double dare you to show that where it appears words used are semantically opposite this isnt contextually reconcilable?
Also it changes the core theological message, laws, or doctrines
Then prove it as not divinely intended to provide depth, not contradiction.

Here are just TWO where verses mean different things
1. Surah Al-Imran (3:146)
Hafs version: The verse uses the word "قاتل" (qātila), meaning "fought". It says the prophets fought alongside many godly men.
Warsh version: The verse uses the word "قُتِلَ" (qutila), meaning "were killed". It says many prophets were killed along with their companions.

Is it possible to fight but not killed?

2. Surah Al-Baqarah (2:140)
Hafs version: Uses the word "تقولون" (taqulūna), meaning "you say", addressing the Jews and Christians directly.
Warsh version: Uses "يقولون" (yaqulūna), meaning "they say", referring to them indirectly.

Who said what to who?

honesttalk21:
3. Give proof of Allah's promise to Muhammad pbuh not forgetting and how he forgot.
CATEGORICALLY SHOW THIS

Here is Allah's promise again as I am giving it to you for the second time in this thread.
Qur'an 87:6-7
"We shall make you recite, so you will not forget, except what Allah wills. Indeed, He knows what is manifest and what is hidden."

Tell me how the Qur'an of Mohammed can be identical to the Kalam Allah if Mohammed forgot just one word of it?

honesttalk21:
Your claim of not being identical is to what degree and in which ways? Stop blabbing and show evidence.

Not identical word for word, dot for dot! I have shown you evidences from your sources.

honesttalk21:
What specifically are the differences of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubai's Quran /mushaf from Abu Bakr's.

CATEGORICALLY SHOW AND STOP YOUR FALSEHOOD FOUNDED BLABBING

Ibn Mas'ud's Qur'an
1. Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf did not include Surah al-Fatiha (the Opening) and the two final chapters, al-Falaq and al-Nas (collectively known as al-Mu’awwidhatayn)
2. The order of surahs in Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf differed from the canonical arrangement established in Abubakar's Qur'an

https://www.icraa.org/surahs-mushaf-ibn-masud/

Ubayy's Qur'an
1. Ubayy’s Qur'an is reported to have included two additional surahs not found in the Uthmanic (and thus Abu Bakr’s) mushaf: Surah al-Hafd and Surah al-Khal’ (sometimes numbered as 115 and 116)

https://www.icraa.org/no-of-surahs-in-ubayys-mushaf/

honesttalk21:
If you feign blindness to your answers in my response then get a secretary and perhaps an interpreter to help you.

I stand by the fact that the Quran used by all Muslims today is identical to what was revealed to prophet Muhammad pbuh.

I have gone out of my way to answer your questions, please answer mine also with evidences.

AGAIN:
It is at least good you seem to be agreeing that the Qur'an is not word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed only that the words are created events that unfold over time and that seemingly contradictory verses with contradictory or opposite meanings are reconcilable within context
The point is that the original Islamic claim is false!

According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. There is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

honesttalk21:
That is the core meaning is unchanged.
I double dare you to show that where it appears words used are semantically opposite this isnt contextually reconcilable?

It seems you have accepted that the Qur'an may be different but the differences are reconcilable
With this, my objective is satisfied!

My objective was to prove that it is a LIE to claim that the Qur'an of today is Word for Word, Dot for Dot IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed.


1. I have shown you that Mohammed had SEVEN Ahruf but Muslims canny even present TWO of these seven
2. I have shown you that your Best Reciter's Qur'an is different from the Qur'an of Abubakar
3. Mohammed's Qur'an was collected on pieces of CLOTHES that were not referenced anywhere in the hadiths.
4. I showed you the illogicality of having three best Reciters acclaimed by your prophet, yet none of them were part of the Qur'an of Abubakar.
5. I showed you that the Qur'an of Mohammed contained the verse of breastfeeding an adult ten times (later abrogated to five) and both are absent in the present Qur'an