₦airaland Forum

TenQ:
I cannot tell if the Ahruf are deficient because Muslims have not shown us ANY SEVEN Ahruf of the Qur'an of Mohammed. My argument is not if the different Ahruf are deficient. My question is, where are the other SIX Ahruf of Mohammed as he received the Qur'an in SEVEN Ahruf!?


Here are just TWO where verses mean different things
1. Surah Al-Imran (3:146)
Hafs version: The verse uses the word "قاتل" (qātila), meaning "fought". It says the prophets fought alongside many godly men.
Warsh version: The verse uses the word "قُتِلَ" (qutila), meaning "were killed". It says many prophets were killed along with their companions.

Is it possible to fight but not killed?

2. Surah Al-Baqarah (2:140)
Hafs version: Uses the word "تقولون" (taqulūna), meaning "you say", addressing the Jews and Christians directly.
Warsh version: Uses "يقولون" (yaqulūna), meaning "they say", referring to them indirectly.

Who said what to who?


Here is Allah's promise again as I am giving it to you for the second time in this thread.
Qur'an 87:6-7
"We shall make you recite, so you will not forget, except what Allah wills. Indeed, He knows what is manifest and what is hidden."

Tell me how the Qur'an of Mohammed can be identical to the Kalam Allah if Mohammed forgot just one word of it?


Not identical word for word, dot for dot! I have shown you evidences from your sources.


Ibn Mas'ud's Qur'an
1. Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf did not include Surah al-Fatiha (the Opening) and the two final chapters, al-Falaq and al-Nas (collectively known as al-Mu’awwidhatayn)
2. The order of surahs in Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf differed from the canonical arrangement established in Abubakar's Qur'an

https://www.icraa.org/surahs-mushaf-ibn-masud/

Ubayy's Qur'an
1. Ubayy’s Qur'an is reported to have included two additional surahs not found in the Uthmanic (and thus Abu Bakr’s) mushaf: Surah al-Hafd and Surah al-Khal’ (sometimes numbered as 115 and 116)

https://www.icraa.org/no-of-surahs-in-ubayys-mushaf/

The Qur'an was revealed in seven Aḥruf. These aḥruf aren't just different versions of the Qur'an; they represent various ways of expressing the same Divine Message, making it easier for early reciters from different Arab tribes to connect with the text.

They didn't contradict each other in meaning; instead, they offered unique yet complementary expressions.

The aḥruf weren't kept as separate mushafs because the Uthmanic codex aimed for unity by standardizing one version. This effort to maintain unity was well-received by the sahaba and doesn't undermine the preservation of the Qur'an. It was a thoughtful and collective initiative to protect both the community's cohesion and the integrity of the Qur'an.

Imam al-Nawawī noted that the aḥruf were various reading styles that ultimately came together in the Uthmanic mushaf, allowing several qiraat to continue. Today, we can still find traces of those aḥruf in the Qira’at traditions like Ḥafṣ, Warsh, Qālūn, Ad-Dūrī, and others, each authentically passed down through reliable chains

Omo this thread sweet. Don't forget to grab your popcorn. Watching 2 experts battle it all out.

I like the Jimrohn dude. He knows what he is talking about.
TenQ is quite manipulative and moving like a lawyer.😅


We don't need all these tho. I do not subscribe to any of the religion even tho i was born into both. Muslim mum and xtain dad.


Religion is crap

TenQ:
Here are just TWO where verses mean different things
1. Surah Al-Imran (3:146)
Hafs version: The verse uses the word "قاتل" (qātila), meaning "fought". It says the prophets fought alongside many godly men.
Warsh version: The verse uses the word "قُتِلَ" (qutila), meaning "were killed". It says many prophets were killed along with their companions.

Is it possible to fight but not killed?

2. Surah Al-Baqarah (2:140)
Hafs version: Uses the word "تقولون" (taqulūna), meaning "you say", addressing the Jews and Christians directly.
Warsh version: Uses "يقولون" (yaqulūna), meaning "they say", referring to them indirectly.

Who said what to who?


Here is Allah's promise again as I am giving it to you for the second time in this thread.
Qur'an 87:6-7
"We shall make you recite, so you will not forget, except what Allah wills. Indeed, He knows what is manifest and what is hidden."

Tell me how the Qur'an of Mohammed can be identical to the Kalam Allah if Mohammed forgot just one word of it?


Not identical word for word, dot for dot! I have shown you evidences from your sources.


Ibn Mas'ud's Qur'an
1. Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf did not include Surah al-Fatiha (the Opening) and the two final chapters, al-Falaq and al-Nas (collectively known as al-Mu’awwidhatayn)
2. The order of surahs in Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf differed from the canonical arrangement established in Abubakar's Qur'an

https://www.icraa.org/surahs-mushaf-ibn-masud/

Ubayy's Qur'an
1. Ubayy’s Qur'an is reported to have included two additional surahs not found in the Uthmanic (and thus Abu Bakr’s) mushaf: Surah al-Hafd and Surah al-Khal’ (sometimes numbered as 115 and 116)

https://www.icraa.org/no-of-surahs-in-ubayys-mushaf/

In Quran 3:146 for the Harf and Warsh Quran
قاتَل (qātila) means "fought alongside," while قُتِل (qutila) translates to "were killed."

Both of these phrases reflect real historical and theological truths.

Some prophets engaged in battle, some others faced death in the cause.

These meanings don’t clash; instead, they enrich the overall story.

This is more about style and syntax rather than contradiction. It showcases a variety of expressions rather than opposing differences.

When you take Surah Al-Baqarah 2:140, for instance – "taqulūna" versus "yaqulūna."

تقولون (taqulūna) means "you" (directly addressing someone), while يقولون (yaqulūna) means "they" (indirectly referring to others).

Once again, this is simply a variation in how the message is delivered, not a difference in meaning.

In rhetoric, Allah often shifts between direct and indirect speech to emphasize a point, offer a reprimand, or tell a story. This choice in style highlights the beauty of the Qur'an, showcasing its eloquence rather than revealing any shortcomings.

Now with your reference to forgetting or forgetfulness Qur'an 87:6-7 "We will make you recite, so you will not forget – except what Allah wills…" (Surah al-Aʿlā 87:6-7)

This verse reassures us that Allah will help the Prophet remember the Qur’an, except in certain situations that Allah has chosen, like:

- Abrogation
- Divine wisdom in reminding the Prophet (pbuh)

It’s important to note that this verse doesn’t suggest any shortcoming; rather, it highlights Allah's authority and purpose in either preserving or allowing forgetfulness.

Ibn Masʿūd’s Mushaf & the Muʿawwidhatayn

The idea that Ibn Masʿud rejected Surah al-Fatihah or the Muʿawwidhatayn is simply not true:

Hadiths from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim as well as the consensus confirm that Ibn Masʿud recited and accepted all surahs.

His mushaf may have initially left them out as they were seen as supplications, not because he dismissed them.

The entire Ummah, including Ibn Mas'ud, prayed with al-Fatiḥah and the Muʿawwidhatayn.

No reputable scholar has ever claimed that Ibn Masʿūd had an incomplete Qur’an.

Ubayy ibn Kaʿb’s Extra Surahs?

The reports regarding Surah al-Khal’ and Surah al-Ḥafd are actually duʿāʾs, not Qur’anic surahs.

Even Ubayy never stated that they were part of the Qur’an to be recited during salah.

The consensus during Uthman’s time confirms that the Qur’an consists of 114 surahs.

Final Word: Has the Qur’an Been Preserved?

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ
"Indeed, We sent down the Dhikr (the Qur’an), and We will certainly preserve it.”
(Surah al-Ḥijr 15:9)

Despite all human involvement, the Qur'an has been universally recognized for its consistent transmission, careful preservation in recitation, and unwavering content. Every word is accessible to us, and no authentic qiraa contradicts another when it comes to fundamental beliefs or legal principles. The unity of the Qur'an among all Muslim communities is truly a living miracle.

honesttalk21:
The Qur'an was revealed in seven Aḥruf. These aḥruf aren't just different versions of the Qur'an; they represent various ways of expressing the same Divine Message, making it easier for early reciters from different Arab tribes to connect with the text.

They didn't contradict each other in meaning; instead, they offered unique yet complementary expressions.

The Ahruf is not styles of recitation BUT Dialects of Arabic sir. The Qira'at is the Style of recitation of the Qur'an in any of the seven Ahruf Dialects.

If Ahruf are different, they would not contradict each other. Like amongst the Yoruba Head= Ori in some dialects but Head= Eri in other Yoruba dialect. Also amongst the English people House= Apartment in some dialects but House= Flat in other English dialect.

To prove this:

Sahih Muslim 821 a
Ubayy b. Ka'b reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was near the tank of Banu Ghifar that Gabriel came to him and said:
Allah has commanded you to recite to your people the Qur'an in one dialect. Upon this he said: I ask from Allah pardon and forgiveness. My people are not capable of doing it. He then came for the second time and said: Allah has commanded you that you should recite the Qur'an to your people in two dialects. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) again said: I seek pardon and forgiveness from Allah, my people would not be able to do so. He (Gabriel) came for the third time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in three dialects. Upon this he said: I ask pardon and forgiveness from Allah. My people would not be able to do it. He then came to him for the fourth time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in seven dialects, and in whichever dialect they would recite, they would be right.

Ahruf is just the Seven Arabic DIALECTS.

honesttalk21:
The aḥruf weren't kept as separate mushafs because the Uthmanic codex aimed for unity by standardizing one version. This effort to maintain unity was well-received by the sahaba and doesn't undermine the preservation of the Qur'an. It was a thoughtful and collective initiative to protect both the community's cohesion and the integrity of the Qur'an.

Imam al-Nawawī noted that the aḥruf were various reading styles that ultimately came together in the Uthmanic mushaf, allowing several qiraat to continue. Today, we can still find traces of those aḥruf in the Qira’at traditions like Ḥafṣ, Warsh, Qālūn, Ad-Dūrī, and others, each authentically passed down through reliable chains

The problem is that the Qur'an was revealed in SEVEN different dialects of which the Quraish dialect is just ONE out of SEVEN.


It just means that SIX of the seven Qur'an disappeared!
Otherwise, we should be able to trace even the dialects represented

honesttalk21:
In Quran 3:146 for the Harf and Warsh Quran
قاتَل (qātila) means "fought alongside," while قُتِل (qutila) translates to "were killed."

Both of these phrases reflect real historical and theological truths.

Some prophets engaged in battle, some others faced death in the cause.

These meanings don’t clash; instead, they enrich the overall story.

This is more about style and syntax rather than contradiction. It showcases a variety of expressions rather than opposing differences.

Muslims will NEVER accept glaring Truths even it goes against them.
1. Which of these two is in the Kalam Allah in paradise: is it the version of "they fought" or "were killed"?
2. Do you agree with me now that your Qur'an is NOT word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed? Otherwise, which of these two versions was in the Qur'an of Mohammed?

honesttalk21:
When you take Surah Al-Baqarah 2:140, for instance – "taqulūna" versus "yaqulūna."

تقولون (taqulūna) means "you" (directly addressing someone), while يقولون (yaqulūna) means "they" (indirectly referring to others).

Once again, this is simply a variation in how the message is delivered, not a difference in meaning.

Tell me, how can YOU and THEY be exactly the same in meaning?

Again:
1. Which of these two is in the Kalam Allah in paradise: is it the version of "You" or "they"?
2. Do you agree with me now that your Qur'an is NOT word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed? Otherwise, which of these two versions was in the Qur'an of Mohammed?

honesttalk21:
In rhetoric, Allah often shifts between direct and indirect speech to emphasize a point, offer a reprimand, or tell a story. This choice in style highlights the beauty of the Qur'an, showcasing its eloquence rather than revealing any shortcomings.

Now with your reference to forgetting or forgetfulness Qur'an 87:6-7 "We will make you recite, so you will not forget – except what Allah wills…" (Surah al-Aʿlā 87:6-7)

This verse reassures us that Allah will help the Prophet remember the Qur’an, except in certain situations that Allah has chosen, like:

- Abrogation
- Divine wisdom in reminding the Prophet (pbuh)

It’s important to note that this verse doesn’t suggest any shortcoming; rather, it highlights Allah's authority and purpose in either preserving or allowing forgetfulness.

You seem not to understand that abrogation is a problem for Islamic Narrative!
1. Are abrogated verses part of Kalam Allah or not?
2. If these abrogated verses were never part of Kalam Allah, why were they revealed to your prophet as Qur'an?
3. According to Qur'an 87:6-7, why would Allah reveal a verse only to cause Mohammed to forget it? Does it make any sense?

honesttalk21:
Ibn Masʿūd’s Mushaf & the Muʿawwidhatayn

The idea that Ibn Masʿud rejected Surah al-Fatihah or the Muʿawwidhatayn is simply not true:

Hadiths from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim as well as the consensus confirm that Ibn Masʿud recited and accepted all surahs.

His mushaf may have initially left them out as they were seen as supplications, not because he dismissed them.

The entire Ummah, including Ibn Mas'ud, prayed with al-Fatiḥah and the Muʿawwidhatayn.

No reputable scholar has ever claimed that Ibn Masʿūd had an incomplete Qur’an.

Ubayy ibn Kaʿb’s Extra Surahs?

The reports regarding Surah al-Khal’ and Surah al-Ḥafd are actually duʿāʾs, not Qur’anic surahs.

Even Ubayy never stated that they were part of the Qur’an to be recited during salah.

The consensus during Uthman’s time confirms that the Qur’an consists of 114 surahs.

Final Word: Has the Qur’an Been Preserved?

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ
"Indeed, We sent down the Dhikr (the Qur’an), and We will certainly preserve it.”
(Surah al-Ḥijr 15:9)

Despite all human involvement, the Qur'an has been universally recognized for its consistent transmission, careful preservation in recitation, and unwavering content. Every word is accessible to us, and no authentic qiraa contradicts another when it comes to fundamental beliefs or legal principles. The unity of the Qur'an among all Muslim communities is truly a living miracle.

The question is:
Is the Qur'an word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed?
The answer is NO!

Is any thing I specifically said about Ibn Mas'ud or Ubayy false? I didn't say the things you are discussing above!

I have gone out of my way to answer your questions, please answer mine also with evidences.

AGAIN:
It is at least good you seem to be agreeing that the Qur'an is not word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL to the Qur'an of Mohammed only that the words are created events that unfold over time and that seemingly contradictory verses with contradictory or opposite meanings are reconcilable within context
The point is that the original Islamic claim is false!

According to Islamic scholars
1. The Qur'an is Eternal and Uncreated because it is an attribute of Allah.
2. There is the Kalam Allah (in the mother of the book) in paradise from which Jibril brought down the Qur'an verses to Mohammed.

If indeed these two are correct
1. Are the abrogated verses in the Kalam Allah in paradise?
2. There is a difference between Abrogation and causing a verse to be forgotten. Explain logically Why would Allah cause his eternal words to be FORGOTTEN logically speaking?
3. If the Qur'an is the perfect words of Allah, explain logically why would Allah REPLACE his perfect words with something SIMILAR or BETTER?

TenQ:
Muslims will NEVER accept glaring Truths even it goes against them.
1. Which of these two is in the Kalam Allah in paradise: is it the version of "they fought" or "were killed"?
2. Do you agree with me now that your Qur'an is NOT word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed? Otherwise, which of these two versions was in the Qur'an of Mohammed?



Tell me, how can YOU and THEY be exactly the same in meaning?

Again:
1. Which of these two is in the Kalam Allah in paradise: is it the version of "You" or "they"?
2. Do you agree with me now that your Qur'an is NOT word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed? Otherwise, which of these two versions was in the Qur'an of Mohammed?



You seem not to understand that abrogation is a problem for Islamic Narrative!
1. Are abrogated verses part of Kalam Allah or not?
2. If these abrogated verses were never part of Kalam Allah, why were they revealed to your prophet as Qur'an?
3. According to Qur'an 87:6-7, why would Allah reveal a verse only to cause Mohammed to forget it? Does it make any sense?


The question is:
Is the Qur'an word for word, dot for dot IDENTICAL with the Qur'an of Mohammed?
The answer is NO!

Is any thing I specifically said about Ibn Mas'ud or Ubayy false? I didn't say the things you are discussing above!

1. Both and any other variants.
Remember how the different Ahrufs are merged.

2. Completely not.
It is hard for you to agree that the diversity is divine and true. You stiff reasoning in monologue limits you. What is the difference in the message delivered in the variations?

Do I need to keep repeating what has been addressed because you pretend to not see or understand? No.

All are.

Who says the abrogated verses were not part of it. In the way through time there have been changes in human nature and needs the guidance has until it was perfected for all remaining earthly time and use of mankind.

This is a declaration of the ultimate control and preservation of everything by Allah. Sadly you have a fixation that may lead to excesses that could translate into disbelief.

Yes the Quran is perfectly preserved and what is available includes the different ahruf which addresses the diversity of tounges and tribes.

Yes it is false as you falsely claim they rejected the standardization due to the inclusion or omission of what are supplications or felt unnecessary as these are fundamentally used in prayer.

It's rather unproductive duplicating number 1,2.. in the same response

TenQ:
JimRohn made a big claim that the Qur'an is perfectly Preserved unlike the Bible that is totally corrupt.

The aim of this debate is to find out if JimRoh is correct of the claim that
1. The Qur'an is perfectly Preserved from the Original from Mohammed.


Before I give my evidence of the non- preservation of the Qur'an, I will like to ask just three questions from JimRohn


1. What does it mean that "the Qur'an was collected". Eg. During the time of Abubakar and during the time of Uthman?
2. To prevent ambiguities , how would JimRohn want to phrase his claims about the Qur'an and I will go with his exact claims about the preservation of the Qur'an!
3. Even though I honestly think you are a denialist, what happens if I show with convincing evidences that the Qur'an is not perfectly preserved?


Over to you JimRohn

The differences you've mentioned are well-documented and not hidden within the Islamic scholarly tradition and actually don't challenge the preservation of the text.

Instead, they highlight the rich oral tradition, diversity, and eloquence found in the Quran. The study of Qiraat, the agreement on the final Uthmānic codex, and traditional tafsir all reinforce the idea that the Qur’an has been preserved both in its wording and its meaning.

TenQ:
The Ahruf is not styles of recitation BUT Dialects of Arabic sir. The Qira'at is the Style of recitation of the Qur'an in any of the seven Ahruf Dialects.

If Ahruf are different, they would not contradict each other. Like amongst the Yoruba Head= Ori in some dialects but Head= Eri in other Yoruba dialect. Also amongst the English people House= Apartment in some dialects but House= Flat in other English dialect.

To prove this:

Sahih Muslim 821 a
Ubayy b. Ka'b reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was near the tank of Banu Ghifar that Gabriel came to him and said:
Allah has commanded you to recite to your people the Qur'an in one dialect. Upon this he said: I ask from Allah pardon and forgiveness. My people are not capable of doing it. He then came for the second time and said: Allah has commanded you that you should recite the Qur'an to your people in two dialects. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) again said: I seek pardon and forgiveness from Allah, my people would not be able to do so. He (Gabriel) came for the third time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in three dialects. Upon this he said: I ask pardon and forgiveness from Allah. My people would not be able to do it. He then came to him for the fourth time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in seven dialects, and in whichever dialect they would recite, they would be right.

Ahruf is just the Seven Arabic DIALECTS.



The problem is that the Qur'an was revealed in SEVEN different dialects of which the Quraish dialect is just ONE out of SEVEN.


It just means that SIX of the seven Qur'an disappeared!
Otherwise, we should be able to trace even the dialects represented

I commend your efforts however in reality The aḥruf aren't just different dialects; they're rich, multi-faceted ways of revelation that showcase variations in Vocabulary, Syntax, Word choice, Phonetic features and Styles of expression.

honesttalk21:
I commend your efforts however in reality The aḥruf aren't just different dialects; they're rich, multi-faceted ways of revelation that showcase variations in Vocabulary, Syntax, Word choice, Phonetic features and Styles of expression.

If this is TRUE
Define in a consistent term with examples Ahruf and then the Qira'at?

Will you say phrases like THEY SAY and YOU SAY are Ahruf?
or
Phrases like WERE KILLED and FOUGHT are Ahruf?


The problem is that Muslims have to make the definition IMPOSSIBLE in other to hide FLAWS in their theology.

My argument is not even wth the definitions BUT the fact that SEVEN Ahruf were revealed BUT only ONE seems to have survived. This is NOT perfect preservation!

honesttalk21:
The differences you've mentioned are well-documented and not hidden within the Islamic scholarly tradition and actually don't challenge the preservation of the text.

Instead, they highlight the rich oral tradition, diversity, and eloquence found in the Quran. The study of Qiraat, the agreement on the final Uthmānic codex, and traditional tafsir all reinforce the idea that the Qur’an has been preserved both in its wording and its meaning.

Like I said:
My aim was to debunk the so-called LETTER for LETTER, WORD for WORD claim of the perfect preservation of the Qur'an.

Even Umar was reported to have said:

Ibn Abi Shaybah (7/198)
"Waki’ narrated to us from Sufyan, from Mansur, from Ibrahim, from Alqamah, who said: Umar said: None of you should say, “I have taken the whole of the Qur’an,” for how does he know what all of it is? Much of the Qur’an has been lost, but let him say, “I have taken what has appeared of it

But modern Muslims say otherwise!


So, is the Qur'an perfectly preserved word for word, dot for dot?

Your scholars say YES but your historical sources say NO!

JimRohn had to flee when he saw that he prefers to be in denial just like most Muslims.

honesttalk21:
1. Both and any other variants.
Remember how the different Ahrufs are merged.

2. Completely not.
It is hard for you to agree that the diversity is divine and true. You stiff reasoning in monologue limits you. What is the difference in the message delivered in the variations?

Do I need to keep repeating what has been addressed because you pretend to not see or understand? No.

All are.

Who says the abrogated verses were not part of it. In the way through time there have been changes in human nature and needs the guidance has until it was perfected for all remaining earthly time and use of mankind.

This is a declaration of the ultimate control and preservation of everything by Allah. Sadly you have a fixation that may lead to excesses that could translate into disbelief.

Yes the Quran is perfectly preserved and what is available includes the different ahruf which addresses the diversity of tounges and tribes.

Yes it is false as you falsely claim they rejected the standardization due to the inclusion or omission of what are supplications or felt unnecessary as these are fundamentally used in prayer.

It's rather unproductive duplicating number 1,2.. in the same response

1. Hadith About Lost Verses (Including the Stoning Verse)
Sahih al-Bukhari 6829, Sahih Muslim 1691
Narrated by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab:
"Allah sent Muhammad (ﷺ) with the Truth and revealed the Book to him. Among what Allah revealed was the Verse of the Stoning, so we recited it, understood it, and acted upon it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) stoned (adulterers), and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time, someone will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of Stoning in the Book of Allah,' thus they will go astray by abandoning an obligation that Allah revealed."

Where is the verse of Rajam in the Qur'an?
It had been removed

This shows that some verses, like the Rajam (stoning) verse, were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer present in the compiled text.

2. Hadith About the "Suckling Verse" (Ayah al-Rada’ah)
Sahih Muslim 1452, Sunan Abu Dawud 2062
Narrated by 'Aisha:
"Among what was revealed of the Qur’an was 'ten known sucklings' (to establish mahram relations), then it was abrogated by 'five known sucklings.' When the Prophet (ﷺ) passed away, this was among what was recited of the Qur’an."

This shows that some verses, like the Breastfeeding an adult man verse, were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer present in the compiled text.

3. Ibn Mas’ud’s Statement on Missing Surahs

Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 7/197-198
Abdullah ibn Mas’ud said:
"What we recite as a single surah (in the Mushaf) would (originally) be as long as Surah al-Baqarah.


This suggests that some parts of the Qur’an were much longer before being reduced.

4. Hadith on the "Two Surahs" That Were Lost

Sahih Muslim 2289
Narrated by Abu Musa al-Ash’ari
"We used to recite a surah similar in length and severity to Surah Bara’ah (At-Tawbah), but I have forgotten it except for a single verse : 'If the son of Adam had two valleys of wealth, he would seek a third, and nothing fills the belly of the son of Adam except dust...'"


This confirms that some surahs or verses were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer preserved in the Mushaf. And it rubbishes the claim of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an by the Sahaba of Mohammed.

5. Zaid ibn Thabit’s Statement on Missing Verses
Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 10/519)
Zaid ibn Thabit said:
"We used to recite a verse that was revealed concerning the struggle in the way of Allah, but it is not found now: 'Strive in the way of Allah with a striving that is due to Him.'"


This further supports the idea that some Qur’anic revelations were lost over time.

These are the things JimRohn wouldn't want you to see. This is why he would prefer to repeat the Standard Islamic Narrative fifty times as if they are FACTs.


What ELSE are the Muslim Scholars you follow Hiding from you with their narratives?




I rest my case on this topic!

TenQ:
1. Hadith About Lost Verses (Including the Stoning Verse)
Sahih al-Bukhari 6829, Sahih Muslim 1691
Narrated by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab:
"Allah sent Muhammad (ﷺ) with the Truth and revealed the Book to him. Among what Allah revealed was the Verse of the Stoning, so we recited it, understood it, and acted upon it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) stoned (adulterers), and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time, someone will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of Stoning in the Book of Allah,' thus they will go astray by abandoning an obligation that Allah revealed."

Where is the verse of Rajam in the Qur'an?
It had been removed

This shows that some verses, like the Rajam (stoning) verse, were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer present in the compiled text.

2. Hadith About the "Suckling Verse" (Ayah al-Rada’ah)
Sahih Muslim 1452, Sunan Abu Dawud 2062
Narrated by 'Aisha:
"Among what was revealed of the Qur’an was 'ten known sucklings' (to establish mahram relations), then it was abrogated by 'five known sucklings.' When the Prophet (ﷺ) passed away, this was among what was recited of the Qur’an."

This shows that some verses, like the Breastfeeding an adult man verse, were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer present in the compiled text.

3. Ibn Mas’ud’s Statement on Missing Surahs

Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 7/197-198
Abdullah ibn Mas’ud said:
"What we recite as a single surah (in the Mushaf) would (originally) be as long as Surah al-Baqarah.


This suggests that some parts of the Qur’an were much longer before being reduced.

4. Hadith on the "Two Surahs" That Were Lost

Sahih Muslim 2289
Narrated by Abu Musa al-Ash’ari
"We used to recite a surah similar in length and severity to Surah Bara’ah (At-Tawbah), but I have forgotten it except for a single verse : 'If the son of Adam had two valleys of wealth, he would seek a third, and nothing fills the belly of the son of Adam except dust...'"


This confirms that some surahs or verses were once part of the Qur’an but are no longer preserved in the Mushaf. And it rubbishes the claim of perfect memorisation of the Qur'an by the Sahaba of Mohammed.

5. Zaid ibn Thabit’s Statement on Missing Verses
Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 10/519)
Zaid ibn Thabit said:
"We used to recite a verse that was revealed concerning the struggle in the way of Allah, but it is not found now: 'Strive in the way of Allah with a striving that is due to Him.'"


This further supports the idea that some Qur’anic revelations were lost over time.

These are the things JimRohn wouldn't want you to see. This is why he would prefer to repeat the Standard Islamic Narrative fifty times as if they are FACTs.


What ELSE are the Muslim Scholars you follow Hiding from you with their narratives?




I rest my case on this topic!

AGAIN
What Are Aḥruf?

The Prophet pbuh said: The Qur'an was revealed in seven Ahruf — *Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī, Muslim, and others.

The precise meaning of the seven Aḥruf has been a topic of discussion among Muslims since the early days. Scholars have different opinions, but most agree that Aḥruf refer to various ways of expressing the message that Allah permitted in the revelation. These include differences in pronunciation, vocabulary, dialect, or synonymous expressions. These variations helped accommodate the different tribes' languages in early Arabia. Imām al-Nawawi explained that the strongest view is that the Aḥruf refer to seven types of differences, such as synonyms, word order, grammatical inflections, and dialectical variations, without changing the core meaning.

So, to answer your question: Are phrases like "THEY SAY" vs. "YOU SAY," or "WERE KILLED" vs. "FOUGHT" considered Aḥruf?
Yes, such examples are considered part of the Aḥruf, provided they were authentically revealed to the Prophet pbuh and transmitted through strong, continuous chains. For example: تعالَ; taāla(Come) versus هلمّ; halumma (Come!) Both appear in different Qirāʾāt.

فَتَبَيَّنُوا, ftabayanuu; verify versus فَتَثَبَّتُوا; fatathabatuu; be sure. Both are valid Qirāʾāt in 49:6. These differences are in wording, not in the fundamental message meaning, they uphold the same core teachings. They weren't human additions but were revealed by Allah to allow linguistic flexibility among the Arab tribes.

What Are Qiiraat?

Qiraat are the different ways of reciting the Qur’an that reflect some of these Aḥruf. Today’s worldwide recitation of the Qur’an (like Ḥafṣ ʿan ʿĀsim, Warsh ʿan Nāfiʿ) is based on a selection from the seven Aḥruf, each with authentic chains of transmission. All Qirāʾāt are Mutawātir, meaning they have been transmitted by so many narrators across generations that it's impossible they are fabricated.

Why Only One Survived (According to You)?
Your claim that only one Aḥruf survived isn't entirely accurate. Here's why:

1. Uthman’s Standardization: The mushaf compiled by ʿUthmān ibn ʿAffān preserved one unified dialect (Quraysh) to prevent division, not because other dialects were wrong. This writing system (Rasm) allowed multiple Qiraat to continue as long as they fit the script and had strong transmission.

2. The Seven (Later Ten) Qiraat :

These preserve elements of the Aḥruf. So, the Aḥruf aren’t completely lost they are incorporated into the Qiraat we have today, transmitted through widespread, continuous chains.

3. The Prophet pbuh himself advised the community to read whatever is easiest, stating: "Recite whichever of it is easy for you." — *Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī*
This shows Allah’s mercy and His careful preservation, not failure.

Is This a Contradiction to the Idea of Complete Preservation?
Preservation (ḥifẓ) in Islam doesn't mean the Qur’an was kept in seven dialects forever, but that the essential message, wording, and guidance Allah revealed would never be lost.

"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We will be its guardian." — *Qur’an 15:9

It's important to understand that complexity does not mean contradiction. Just as Einstein's theory is difficult to understand but not flawed, the concepts of Ahruf and Qiraat are part of a rich and carefully preserved linguistic system revealed by God. Our faith does not rely on hiding anything; in fact, these sciences are studied, shared, and memorized around the world, displaying their significance and clarity

honesttalk21:
I commend your efforts however in reality The aḥruf aren't just different dialects; they're rich, multi-faceted ways of revelation that showcase variations in Vocabulary, Syntax, Word choice, Phonetic features and Styles of expression.

I don't know why my posts are being deleted!

But here it is again!

honesttalk21:
AGAIN
What Are Aḥruf?

The Prophet pbuh said: The Qur'an was revealed in seven Ahruf — *Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī, Muslim, and others.

The precise meaning of the seven Aḥruf has been a topic of discussion among Muslims since the early days. Scholars have different opinions, but most agree that Aḥruf refer to various ways of expressing the message that Allah permitted in the revelation. These include differences in pronunciation, vocabulary, dialect, or synonymous expressions. These variations helped accommodate the different tribes' languages in early Arabia. Imām al-Nawawi explained that the strongest view is that the Aḥruf refer to seven types of differences, such as synonyms, word order, grammatical inflections, and dialectical variations, without changing the core meaning.

So, to answer your question: Are phrases like "THEY SAY" vs. "YOU SAY," or "WERE KILLED" vs. "FOUGHT" considered Aḥruf?
Yes, such examples are considered part of the Aḥruf, provided they were authentically revealed to the Prophet pbuh and transmitted through strong, continuous chains. For example: تعالَ; taāla(Come) versus هلمّ; halumma (Come!) Both appear in different Qirāʾāt.

فَتَبَيَّنُوا, ftabayanuu; verify versus فَتَثَبَّتُوا; fatathabatuu; be sure. Both are valid Qirāʾāt in 49:6. These differences are in wording, not in the fundamental message meaning, they uphold the same core teachings. They weren't human additions but were revealed by Allah to allow linguistic flexibility among the Arab tribes.

What Are Qiiraat?

Qiraat are the different ways of reciting the Qur’an that reflect some of these Aḥruf. Today’s worldwide recitation of the Qur’an (like Ḥafṣ ʿan ʿĀsim, Warsh ʿan Nāfiʿ) is based on a selection from the seven Aḥruf, each with authentic chains of transmission. All Qirāʾāt are Mutawātir, meaning they have been transmitted by so many narrators across generations that it's impossible they are fabricated.

Why Only One Survived (According to You)?
Your claim that only one Aḥruf survived isn't entirely accurate. Here's why:

1. Uthman’s Standardization: The mushaf compiled by ʿUthmān ibn ʿAffān preserved one unified dialect (Quraysh) to prevent division, not because other dialects were wrong. This writing system (Rasm) allowed multiple Qiraat to continue as long as they fit the script and had strong transmission.

2. The Seven (Later Ten) Qiraat :

These preserve elements of the Aḥruf. So, the Aḥruf aren’t completely lost they are incorporated into the Qiraat we have today, transmitted through widespread, continuous chains.

3. The Prophet pbuh himself advised the community to read whatever is easiest, stating: "Recite whichever of it is easy for you." — *Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī*
This shows Allah’s mercy and His careful preservation, not failure.

Is This a Contradiction to the Idea of Complete Preservation?
Preservation (ḥifẓ) in Islam doesn't mean the Qur’an was kept in seven dialects forever, but that the essential message, wording, and guidance Allah revealed would never be lost.

"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We will be its guardian." — *Qur’an 15:9

It's important to understand that complexity does not mean contradiction. Just as Einstein's theory is difficult to understand but not flawed, the concepts of Ahruf and Qiraat are part of a rich and carefully preserved linguistic system revealed by God. Our faith does not rely on hiding anything; in fact, these sciences are studied, shared, and memorized around the world, displaying their significance and clarity

If you notice:

All you have been doing is giving me the Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN)
Unfortunately EVIDENCES abound against you. Hadiths after hadiths show that the SIN is a fabrication to solve problems of earlier told conjectures of Mohammed!


Like I said:
Why don't you CHOOSE to ask yourself Questions and truthfully ANSWER them without recourse to your so-called scholars interjections.

Islam is not the Religion of Allah or Mohammed, it is the Religion of Consensus of Islamic Scholars.

TenQ:
If you notice:

All you have been doing is giving me the Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN)
Unfortunately EVIDENCES abound against you. Hadiths after hadiths show that the SIN is a fabrication to solve problems of earlier told conjectures of Mohammed!


Like I said:
Why don't you CHOOSE to ask yourself Questions and truthfully ANSWER them without recourse to your so-called scholars interjections.

Islam is not the Religion of Allah or Mohammed, it is the Religion of Consensus of Islamic Scholars.

What is wrong or deficient in the standard? It is standard isn't it? You want sub or under standard.

You would have done reasonably better to point at what constitutes a lie? I have dissected what you choose to misunderstand and cannot be bamboozled.

The evidence you think you present are not in your favour. I have explained what is there that you misunderstand.

Well you disagree and disbelieve in Muhammad salallahu alaiwasalam, Islam and Allah the only true and real God so your submission is of no consequence.

honesttalk21:
What is wrong or deficient in the standard? It is standard isn't it? You want sub or under standard.

You would have done reasonably better to point at what constitutes a lie? I have dissected what you choose to misunderstand and cannot be bamboozled.

The evidence you think you present are not in your favour. I have explained what is there that you misunderstand.

Well you disagree and disbelieve in Muhammad salallahu alaiwasalam, Islam and Allah the only true and real God so your submission is of no consequence.

I said:
Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN)!

Meaning an agreed upon conjecture made as a save-face to serious theological questions!

The Name of the Real God is YHWH the God of Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon! Is the name of your Allah YHWH?

TenQ:
I don't know why my posts are being deleted!

But here it is again!

One man heard someone recite the phrase "عَتَّى حِينٍ" (‘Attā Hīn) instead of the more common "حَتَّى حِينٍ" (Ḥattā Hīn) during a recitation from Surah Yūsuf (12:35).

This was traced back to Ibn Masʿūd, who belonged to the Hudhayl tribe, a group whose dialect included this different way of pronouncing things. When ‘Umar heard about it, he wrote a reminder: "Allah revealed the Qur’an in the clear Arabic of Quraysh, so teach people in their dialect and not in that of Hudhayl."

Since the Prophet pbuh was from Quraysh, the main dialect of the revelation was Qurayshī. ʿ

Abdullāh ibn Masʿūd came from Hudhayl, a well-known Arab tribe, and his native dialect reflected Hudhayl’s way of speaking — with some unique sounds and words that set it apart from Qurayshī Arabic. Some Yoruba pronounce 8 as hate instead of eight.

Later, the most official copy of the Mushaf was read to the Companions in front of ʿUthmān, and no one objected. Muṣʿab ibn Saʿd said people were actually happy about it. ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib mentioned that everything was done openly, so everyone could see.

From The Study Quran.

Though there was some hesitation, but Ibn Masʿūd never doubted that the Qur’an was safely preserved. He didn’t accuse the Uthmānic committee of messing up or leaving things out. In the end, he accepted the consensus of the community, joining the Quraysh-style recitation and the standard Mushaf that was agreed upon.

TenQ:
I said:
Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN)!

Meaning an agreed upon conjecture made as a save-face to serious theological questions!

The Name of the Real God is YHWH the God of Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon! Is the name of your Allah YHWH?

The Qur'an is not simply a guesswork or a product of human agreement. Instead, it is the following: it was revealed by God, taught through prophets, verified by companions, transmitted across many generations, and preserved both orally and in writing as the direct word of Allah. It was compiled by the most knowledgeable person about the Qur'an, Zayd ibn Thābit (may Allah be pleased with him), who was the Prophet’s personal scribe. The compilation was overseen by senior companions like ʿUmar ibn al-Khaṭṭāb, ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib, ʿUthmān ibn ʿAffān, and others such as Abū Dardāʾ and Ubayy ibn Kaʿb.

TenQ:
I said:
Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN)!

Meaning an agreed upon conjecture made as a save-face to serious theological questions!

The Name of the Real God is YHWH the God of Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon! Is the name of your Allah YHWH?

The irony is that while you're mocking the term ‘Standard Islamic Narrative,’ most religious traditions have some form of standard account. Can we say you apply same to your said belief in a Christ abbreviation of Greek Christos not the spun myth? Do you dismiss those too, or only Islam?

honesttalk21
They keep deleting this post: why?

There is one Muslim Admin deleting my posts he finds incriminating to Muslims

honesttalk21
They keep deleting this post: why?
.
There is no evidence that Mohammed saw anything nor witnessed anything. All was a lie and gullible Arabs swallowed it hook line and sinker

honesttalk21
They keep deleting this post: why?
.Here is an example that the admin have deleted five times now

A Jew asked Mohammed a trick question and he fell for it.

Mr honesttalk21,
Sahih al-Bukhari 3938
Here is the Hadith they don't want you to see

TenQ:
Sahih al-Bukhari 3938

Tell me honesttalk21,
What is wrong with this hadith and how can we know if Mohammed was speaking the truth about Jibril or not?

I will appreciate the you inform what the relevance of this to your title/original post about the preservation of the Quran.

I have dismantled all your views against it and correctly explained what you misunderstand.

You however refuse to accept being undone and only seem to be needlessly prolonging your thread.

Open another with this question if there is really something you intend to understand or show about it.

Otherwise it has been proven that the revelation for recitation through prophet Muhammad pbuh has been preserved and remains useful in that light.