₦airaland Forum

Steep:
what is how? That is what the word theotes mean.

If Paul truly believed that Jesus was God, he wouldn't refer to God as the head of Christ or restrict God to just the Father.

The head of Christ is God.

In simple terms, God holds authority over Christ.

There is one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in all.

Ohyoudidnt:
If Paul truly believed that Jesus was God, he wouldn't refer to God as the head of Christ or restrict God to just the Father.

The head of Christ is God.

In simple terms, God holds authority over Christ.

There is one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in all.

why don't you continue the verse he also said there is one LORD by whom are all things, you just pick a from a verse what you think aligns with your belief, not minding the other pars and verses goes against your belief.
You have jumped into another topic.

Gabrielshow24:
It's in the hadith..with varying accounts of his expressions when he received the "wahy"👌. If you like proof, let me know. I base my speech on facts not hearsay! I will post all the necessary hadiths related to these expressions or episodes 👀!

The one that has real facts needs no special invitation to present.

Gabrielshow24:
In what way did you infer that I said Jesus gave the spirit to himself! In the Quran, Allah refers to himself as the "first and the last". In the bible, Jesus refers to himself as the "first and the last".
By Quranic standards, does Jesus not have the Essence of Allah? —Even though I don't want to be totally blunt by using direct equation since I have taken into view the standard Islamic narratives 🤧!

Let also ask you, By your prophet's definition or standard of relegation of other false gods, he posited that because they do not have the power to create they are false but look at such a one in Isa, that made birds🤨, supposedly didn't die and yet exhibited features and attributes that are imposed on God alone!

You have a skewed perception of trinity, you can look at my responses to educate yourself. You acknowledge that Elijah and Elisha have portions of God's spirit and you posit that having greater abundance doesn't warrant the Divine attribute—This is wrong, the fullness of God as much as you want to spin it as a metaphor rears its head as Jesus embodying the Full divine Essence of God!

You can have part of something doesn't necessarily translate to having the full. Elijah and Elisha in their own rights did things that were remarkable based on the portion of the spirit upon them! You can ascribe these things as "Divine" but the emphasis is that both didn't have the fullness of God! They had in portions and worked according to the portion given to them!

Please read and understand your scripture.
Matt. 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

The spirit was decending from whom unto Jesus? Then if it was the full spirit what about the part of the spirit that resides in other human creations of God.

Do you have the creating a bird narrative in your Bible?

Why do you read the verse in the Quran incompletely?
...I create for you out of clay the shape of a bird, then I blow into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s permission..."
(Surah Āli ʿImrān 3:49)

By Allah's permission shows the one who actually has the power to create.

You say my perception of trinity is skewed yet you fail to appropriately define it to correct me? Why?

Steep:
why don't you continue the verse he also said there is one LORD by whom are all things, you just pick a from a verse what you think aligns with your belief, not minding the other pars and verses goes against your belief.
You have jumped into another topic.

So are you saying one verse says this and the other the opposite?

You seem to refer perhaps among others 1 Cor. 8:6.

The verse makes a clear distinction between the Father and Jesus: the Father is referred to as “God,” while Jesus is called “Lord.” This shows that the Father is the source of creation, and Jesus serves as the means through which it happens. This isn’t about equality; it’s about hierarchy. Even Paul acknowledges that God is the head of Christ.

Corinthians 11:3:
The head of Christ is God.

Philippians 2:9:
God exalted him [Jesus]…

Only someone less than God can be exalted by God.

1 Timothy 2:5:
There is one God, and one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus ( by Christian belief)

Ohyoudidnt:
The one that has real facts needs no special invitation to present.




Please read and understand your scripture.
Matt. 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

The spirit was decending from whom unto Jesus? Then if it was the full spirit what about the part of the spirit that resides in other human creations of God.

Do you have the creating a bird narrative in your Bible?

Why do you read the verse in the Quran incompletely?
...I create for you out of clay the shape of a bird, then I blow into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s permission..."
(Surah Āli ʿImrān 3:49)

By Allah's permission shows the one who actually has the power to create.

You say my perception of trinity is skewed yet you fail to appropriately define it to correct me? Why?

I am a gentleman, so I ask before I release a barrage of hadiths that support my case!

Once more you have a skewed perception of trinity and I redirected you to check my previous responses that deal with it but for the sake of the little ones, I will define it. In definition, Trinity concludes that they are three divine members of the Godhead that encapsulates the concept called "God"!

The Father, The Son and the Spirit. In biblical stance it's impossible to posit that the Father can do something that his Spirit can't! Likewise the Son, where he expressly stated that "whatever he sees his Father do, that's what he does"! —Thus, by capability the same fulfills upon him even without considering other verses that buttress different criteria such as " fullness of God dwells in him", " first and the last" etc

Now, I don't really care whether it's by Allah's leave; my emphasis is on the doer of the action! 🤨Is it Isa creating or Allah? If I say, By Tinubu's leave I went to Mecca, who exactly went to Mecca? Everything you hoped to object with revolves around "authority"! It doesn't negate the Essence! Thus, the concept of co-creator is invariably imputed upon Isa by Allah!

Gabrielshow24:
I am a gentleman, so I ask before I release a barrage of hadiths that support my case!

Once more you have a skewed perception of trinity and I redirected you to check my previous responses that deal with it but for the sake of the little ones, I will define it. In definition, Trinity concludes that they are three divine members of the Godhead that encapsulates the concept called "God"!

The Father, The Son and the Spirit. In biblical stance it's impossible to posit that the Father can do something that his Spirit can't! Likewise the Son, where he expressly stated that "whatever he sees his Father do, that's what he does"! —Thus, by capability the same fulfills upon him even without considering other verses that buttress different criteria such as " fullness of God dwells in him", " first and the last" etc

Now, I don't really care whether it's by Allah's leave; my emphasis is on the doer of the action! 🤨Is it Isa creating or Allah? If I say, By Tinubu's leave I went to Mecca, who exactly went to Mecca? Everything you hoped to object with revolves around "authority"! It doesn't negate the Essence! Thus, the concept of co-creator is invariably imputed upon Isa by Allah!

Thank you for explaining.

However;


The concept of God being three distinct persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (you agree they exist/existed separately, Jesus on earth, the descending or sent holy spirit and God the father) contradicts the clear message from all the prophets that God is fundamentally one and indivisible.

When Jesus states, I can do nothing by myself (John 5:30), it highlights his dependence, which is not a characteristic of God.

Furthermore, when Jesus says, The Father is greater than I (John 14:28), it indicates a hierarchy rather than equality. God isn't split into greater and lesser beings.

Jesus also mentioned that he doesn't know the Hour, only the Father does (Mark 13:32), and a being without knowledge cannot be considered God.

The Holy Spirit, too, doesn’t speak on his own but only shares what he hears (John 16:13), suggesting he operates under authority, not as a co-equal with God.

If the Son only acts based on what he sees the Father doing (John 5:19), it implies that the Son is following rather than being equal he doesn't possess an independent divine will.

Throughout the Old Testament, no prophet ever preached that God is three in one; they all emphasized pure, indivisible monotheism.

Even Jesus affirmed the Jewish belief in one God. The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29), not three.

If the Father, Son, and Spirit were genuinely co-equal, none would be subordinate to another in knowledge, will, or action but the Bible tries to present a different picture.


Then consider a strictly obedient military officer ordered to kill someone by a superior. In obedience he fired and killed but not by his will but command.

Let's look at this a little closer. What did Isa a s mould the bird with? Did he freshly create that or it was already there created by Allah?

Isa a.s (Jesus) molded clay which was something already created and the bird only came to life by Allah’s leave, meaning the act of creating life was not from Isa himself, but from the One who owns life and grants permission for miracles. Allah alone.

By Tinubu’s leave, someone travelled to Mecca. No one would say Tinubu did the traveling. You went, but you couldn’t have done it without Tinubu’s authority. In the end will Tinubu have reward for enabling you to go to Mecca? Yes without diminishing your reward.

Ohyoudidnt:
So are you saying one verse says this and the other the opposite?

You seem to refer perhaps among others 1 Cor. 8:6.

The verse makes a clear distinction between the Father and Jesus: the Father is referred to as “God,” while Jesus is called “Lord.” This shows that the Father is the source of creation, and Jesus serves as the means through which it happens. This isn’t about equality; it’s about hierarchy. Even Paul acknowledges that God is the head of Christ.

Corinthians 11:3:
The head of Christ is God.

Philippians 2:9:
God exalted him [Jesus]…

Only someone less than God can be exalted by God.

1 Timothy 2:5:
There is one God, and one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus ( by Christian belief)

no hierarchy within the trinity instead there is order operation rather than inequality of nature.
Jesus, The father and The holy Spirit are one. But have different order of operation.
For example, all things came from the Father through the Son and by the Spirit.
The Father is the head of Christ because the father ordained Jesus christ.

Ohyoudidnt:
Thank you for explaining.

However;


The concept of God being three distinct persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (you agree they exist/existed separately, Jesus on earth, the descending or sent holy spirit and God the father) contradicts the clear message from all the prophets that God is fundamentally one and indivisible.

When Jesus states, I can do nothing by myself (John 5:30), it highlights his dependence, which is not a characteristic of God.

Furthermore, when Jesus says, The Father is greater than I (John 14:28), it indicates a hierarchy rather than equality. God isn't split into greater and lesser beings.

Jesus also mentioned that he doesn't know the Hour, only the Father does (Mark 13:32), and a being without knowledge cannot be considered God.

The Holy Spirit, too, doesn’t speak on his own but only shares what he hears (John 16:13), suggesting he operates under authority, not as a co-equal with God.

If the Son only acts based on what he sees the Father doing (John 5:19), it implies that the Son is following rather than being equal he doesn't possess an independent divine will.

Throughout the Old Testament, no prophet ever preached that God is three in one; they all emphasized pure, indivisible monotheism.

Even Jesus affirmed the Jewish belief in one God. The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29), not three.

If the Father, Son, and Spirit were genuinely co-equal, none would be subordinate to another in knowledge, will, or action but the Bible tries to present a different picture.


Then consider a strictly obedient military officer ordered to kill someone by a superior. In obedience he fired and killed but not by his will but command.

Let's look at this a little closer. What did Isa a s mould the bird with? Did he freshly create that or it was already there created by Allah?

Isa a.s (Jesus) molded clay which was something already created and the bird only came to life by Allah’s leave, meaning the act of creating life was not from Isa himself, but from the One who owns life and grants permission for miracles. Allah alone.

By Tinubu’s leave, someone travelled to Mecca. No one would say Tinubu did the traveling. You went, but you couldn’t have done it without Tinubu’s authority. In the end will Tinubu have reward for enabling you to go to Mecca? Yes without diminishing your reward.

Your submission still failed in several parts which I will tackle one after the other!

Your claim of dependence is rather a display of unity, showing total unity thereby indicating that everything he does is the same as the Father doing them not a claim of lack, likewise the spirit.

The hour is a popular argument used by Muslims alot and it has been refuted times and times again! The context warrants that it is the Father that will declare it, in the same way the father of the groom declares the marriage day in Jewish marriages! It doesn't diminish his inability to know but rather his disposition to his Father declaring such a Day!

In terms of will, they have one will(purpose) thus they are united and co-equal in that front, in terms of authority, they all wield the fullness of the concept called 'God"! Thus they are co-equal substantially!

In terms of action, they are co-equal as the bible aimed to portray that Jesus does exactly what the Father does invariably there is nothing the Father can do that Jesus can't do. That's equality in action!

In all of this, there is mutual respect and adoration; the Son glorifies the Father, likewise the Father glorifies the Son and No man says "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit!

I didn't ask for all these, I simply asked who is the doer of the action! It doesn't matter whether it was God that made the Earth when nations unveil latest tech during military parades reports have it as "So so and so weapon unveiled in China, Kr2Pl tanks developed by South Korea displayed during ..." —Without saying much you get my point that while God made the base material, the doer of the action creates from the base material only giving glory to the Eternal creator!

Hence in the context of Isa, Isa made birds not Allah! The doer is what I'm concerned about, who is the person that created those birds? Isa or Allah! Be honest as an intellectual. If I asked you who made iphones, would you say Allah? 🤨

Steep:
no hierarchy within the trinity instead there is order operation rather than inequality of nature.
Jesus, The father and The holy Spirit are one. But have different order of operation.
For example, all things came from the Father through the Son and by the Spirit.
The Father is the head of Christ because the father ordained Jesus christ.

The main concern here isn't just about the order of operations; it's really about how we understand the different roles within the Divine. This idea seems to clash with the strict belief in one God. Even if the Trinity suggests that there's equality in essence but different roles, splitting up identity or function within God is not but introducing partners alongside Allah.

Ohyoudidnt:
The main concern here isn't just about the order of operations; it's really about how we understand the different roles within the Divine. This idea seems to clash with the strict belief in one God. Even if the Trinity suggests that there's equality in essence but different roles, splitting up identity or function within God is not but introducing partners alongside Allah.

The Christian God is not same as Allah. In Christianity one God means one essence, but three in personhood but in Islam Allah is singular both in his essence and in his personhood.

Steep:
The Christian God is not same as Allah. In Christianity one God means one essence, but three in personhood but in Islam Allah is singular both in his essence and in his personhood.

Then this Christian God is not in perfect agreement with all the verses of the Christian book called Bible

Ohyoudidnt:
Then this Christian God is not in perfect agreement with all the verses of the Christian book called Bible

It is. Mathew 28:18 says baptizing is in the name of the father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit. This is Trinity.
Paul ended some of his epistle by saying the grace of Jesus christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit. Jesus referred to the holy Spirit as someone who will dwell in his disciples forever. It is allover the Christian Bible.

Steep:
It is. Mathew 28:18 says baptizing is in the name of the father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit. This is Trinity.
Paul ended some of his epistle by saying the grace of Jesus christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit. Jesus referred to the holy Spirit as someone who will dwell in his disciples forever. It is allover the Christian Bible.

Matthew 28:18–19 is frequently cited to back the concept of the Trinity, but it actually illustrates Jesus receiving authority from God, rather than being equal to Him. Verse 18 suggests a hierarchy—“All power is given unto me…” This clearly shows that Jesus is granted authority, rather than having it inherently. This challenges the notion that he is co-equal and co-eternal with God.

While verse 19 mentions the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it doesn’t claim they are one or equal. In fact, the apostles in Acts never quote Matthew 28:19 when baptizing; they consistently do so in the name of Jesus alone, not using three names (see Acts 2:38, 8:16, 19:5).

The doctrine of the Trinity emerged centuries later. Early Christians, like Eusebius, referenced this verse without the Trinitarian formula, hinting at possible later modifications.

Kindly verify that the Christian historian Edmund Schlink wrote that the baptismal command in its Matthew 28:19 form cannot be traced back to the historical Jesus with certainty."

Theologian F. C. Conybeare concluded that the Trinitarian formula was inserted into Matthew 28:19 to align with later theological developments.

Ohyoudidnt:
Matthew 28:18–19 is frequently cited to back the concept of the Trinity, but it actually illustrates Jesus receiving authority from God, rather than being equal to Him. Verse 18 suggests a hierarchy—“All power is given unto me…” This clearly shows that Jesus is granted authority, rather than having it inherently. This challenges the notion that he is co-equal and co-eternal with God.

While verse 19 mentions the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it doesn’t claim they are one or equal. In fact, the apostles in Acts never quote Matthew 28:19 when baptizing; they consistently do so in the name of Jesus alone, not using three names (see Acts 2:38, 8:16, 19:5).

"baptize them in the name (not names) of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit all have one name. This is oneness of nature.
So if Jesus is given all power that means he is Almighty. Because only an Almighty being can wield all power.

The doctrine of the Trinity emerged centuries later. Early Christians, like Eusebius, referenced this verse without the Trinitarian formula, hinting at possible later modifications.

Kindly verify that the Christian historian Edmund Schlink wrote that the baptismal command in its Matthew 28:19 form cannot be traced back to the historical Jesus with certainty."

Theologian F. C. Conybeare concluded that the Trinitarian formula was inserted into Matthew 28:19 to align with later theological developments.

it was not added. I thought you said the Christian Bible does not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity, but here you are trying to discredit a verse in the scripture that teaches Trinity after trying to deny it does not. Make it make sense.

Boomark:
God bless you too. Have a wonderful day meditating on the scripture I have shown you.

yes sir

Chibuezem:
yes sir

There’s an old Yoruba parable: ‘Before accepting help, take a good look at the helper’s garment.’ 😂
It’s wisdom wrapped in wit.

Now, based on what this person has written, does he strike you as someone who truly meditates? I always thought meditation was supposed to deepen reasoning—not dilute it. Apparently, I was wrong!

You already claim to have God’s conviction—what more are you searching for? Before I became a Christian, God had to convince me of my own objectivity. Even without any spiritual revelation, I approached the concept of the Trinity with a logical mind. I treated the Bible like an academic thesis: I defined my terms clearly and set out to prove that Jesus wasn't God. But the deeper I went, the more I discovered that Scripture doesn't support that claim—in fact, it repeatedly affirms the opposite.

From Genesis to Revelation, Christ is consistently revealed as the Redeemer of mankind. From walking with Adam in Eden to His return in Revelation, the narrative unmistakably points to one simple truth: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Out of divine love, He revealed the Father to us.

Then I turned to the Spirit. I began asking serious questions:
Is there anything God can do that His Spirit cannot?

Again, I searched Scripture—and again, I came up short. That led me to a simple, logical conclusion: to limit the Spirit is to limit God Himself.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the Spirit is often described as an active force—wind-like in nature. Yet the effects, the authority, and the presence of the Spirit are consistently divine in scope.

So now, I invite others to engage with these questions—both scripturally and logically. I have plenty more to challenge your grey matter, and you’re absolutely welcome to consult a concordance.

Let’s reason together!

Gabrielshow24:
There’s an old Yoruba parable: ‘Before accepting help, take a good look at the helper’s garment.’ 😂
It’s wisdom wrapped in wit.

Now, based on what this person has written, does he strike you as someone who truly meditates? I always thought meditation was supposed to deepen reasoning—not dilute it. Apparently, I was wrong!

You already claim to have God’s conviction—what more are you searching for? Before I became a Christian, God had to convince me of my own objectivity. Even without any spiritual revelation, I approached the concept of the Trinity with a logical mind. I treated the Bible like an academic thesis: I defined my terms clearly and set out to prove that Jesus wasn't God. But the deeper I went, the more I discovered that Scripture doesn't support that claim—in fact, it repeatedly affirms the opposite.

From Genesis to Revelation, Christ is consistently revealed as the Redeemer of mankind. From walking with Adam in Eden to His return in Revelation, the narrative unmistakably points to one simple truth: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Out of divine love, He revealed the Father to us.

Then I turned to the Spirit. I began asking serious questions:
Is there anything God can do that His Spirit cannot?

Again, I searched Scripture—and again, I came up short. That led me to a simple, logical conclusion: to limit the Spirit is to limit God Himself.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the Spirit is often described as an active force—wind-like in nature. Yet the effects, the authority, and the presence of the Spirit are consistently divine in scope.

So now, I invite others to engage with these questions—both scripturally and logically. I have plenty more to challenge your grey matter, and you’re absolutely welcome to consult a concordance.

Let’s reason together!

Amazing ❤️

Ohyoudidnt:
Then this Christian God is not in perfect agreement with all the verses of the Christian book called Bible

That is exactly what their falsehood make it look like. They don't know their left or right. Have you seen how they all dodged the question I asked them concerning what . To chose either A or B.

See the question here

https://www.nairaland.com/8473507/one-god-father-trinity-false/12#136175226

Gabrielshow24 even said that what Jesus said is a false dichotomy. They insult and reject Christ with their doctrine.

https://www.nairaland.com/8473507/one-god-father-trinity-false/11#136168245

I will make an announcement on Sunday. Their high BP will increase because I'm good to permanently slay their false trinity doctrine. I will invite you.

Boomark:
That is exactly what their falsehood make it look like.
See the question here

https://www.nairaland.com/8473507/one-god-father-trinity-false/12#136175226

Gabrielshow24 even said that what Jesus said is a false dichotomy. They insult and reject Christ with their doctrine.

https://www.nairaland.com/8473507/one-god-father-trinity-false/11#136168245

Could you kindly point out where I said that? We’re already accustomed to your misleading remarks! Just like how you falsely claimed earlier that I lied, until I exposed you with screenshots.

Now, once again, let’s reveal to the world just who you really are! 😂 You’ve even stooped so low as to resort to such cheap tactics. For the sake of future conversations, please educate yourself on what 'false dichotomy' actually means, and save us all some time!

Boomark:
That is exactly what their falsehood make it look like. They don't know their left or right. Have you seen how they all dodged the question I asked them concerning what . To chose either A or B.

See the question here

https://www.nairaland.com/8473507/one-god-father-trinity-false/12#136175226

Gabrielshow24 even said that what Jesus said is a false dichotomy. They insult and reject Christ with their doctrine.

https://www.nairaland.com/8473507/one-god-father-trinity-false/11#136168245

I will make an announcement on Sunday. Their high BP will increase because I'm good to permanently slay their false trinity doctrine. I will invite you.

Quite right. For some reason my further responses aren't allowed with a following ban. I see the real truth is too much for them to bare.