₦airaland Forum

butterfly777:
Lets stay on the topic.

Provide evidence or reference from non-Islamic source of the time:
1. Mecca existed from the days of Adam, Abraham, etc.
2. That there was pilgrimage to Mecca from the days of the above prophets.
3. That the full compiled Quran existed in the 600+ AD.
4. That the Muhammed of Islam, as Muslims claim today, existed in the 7th century.

That's the topic.

The Birmingham Qur’an Manuscript, which has been radiocarbon dated to between 568 and 645 CE, is one of the oldest fragments of the Qur’an and closely matches the standard Uthmanic text.

Another fragment at Tübingen University, dated between 649 and 675 CE, also supports the idea of early textual continuity.

The Sana’a Manuscripts, found in Yemen, date from 578 to 669 CE, with some overlapping text from the late 7th or early 8th century, further backing the early existence of the text.

Scholars like Fred Donner argue that the vocabulary and content of the Qur’an can be traced back to the earliest days of the Islamic community, suggesting its authenticity and early origins.

butterfly777:
Lets stay on the topic.

Provide evidence or reference from non-Islamic source of the time:
1. Mecca existed from the days of Adam, Abraham, etc.
2. That there was pilgrimage to Mecca from the days of the above prophets.
3. That the full compiled Quran existed in the 600+ AD.
4. That the Muhammed of Islam, as Muslims claim today, existed in the 7th century.

That's the topic.

Pre-Islamic Arabic poetry references Mecca and its sacredness. For example, the poet al-Nabighah mentions “the Kaʿbah I have circled,” indicating that the Kaaba was already known and respected before Islam.

Regional geography sources, such as Ananias of Shirak from the 650s CE, refer to a location believed to be Mecca, suggesting

The graves found in Iberia from the 8th to 10th centuries CE, as well as those in the Levant, reveal that bodies were oriented toward Mecca. This indicates that there was a widespread early acknowledgment and practice of facing Mecca during burial rites.

Additionally, pre-Islamic poetry touches on Hajj rituals, mentioning pilgrim gatherings and animal sacrifices. While some of these practices varied, the fundamental elements of the rituals are consistent with what we see in later Islamic traditions.

honesttalk21:
Some Christians often reference John 1:1 and Colossians 1:16 to support the idea that Jesus is the eternal Word of God, the one through whom everything came into being. However, if we take a closer look, the reality becomes much clearer.

The Greek term "Logos" simply translates to word, speech, or expression. Interestingly, the Qur’an also refers to Jesus as "Kalimatun minhu," which means a Word from Allah, but that doesn’t imply he is God. It signifies that he was created by God’s command, “Be.” Allah Himself states: “Indeed, the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him: Be, and he was” (Qur’an 3:59). If being a “Word of God” equates to divinity, then Adam, who had no father or mother, would hold an even higher status.

ALL Christians (including the heretical ones like JW) know from their Bible that Jesus created EVERYTHING and not "some Christians"
It is the Bible that says that
1. John 1:1-4
Jesus was God the Eternal Word who created ALL things
2. Col 1:16
Jesus created ALL things including Angels, Human and Everything visible and invisible.

If "Kalimatun minhu" mean "Word from him" can you explain why your prophet calls Jesus "Kalimatullah" in Arabic meaning "Word of Allah."

Have you checked that (Kalimatun minhu) is not in Quran 4:171, where did you get it?
What is in Qur'an 4:171 is (wa kalimatuhu), which literally means "and His word."

If you note exactly what Allah says in your Qur'an (which you don't believe anyways), you will always bring your scholars to re-interprete the Qur'an.

Quran 4:171
O People of the Scripture, do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah and His word which He sent to Mary and a spirit from Him.....

The Subject:
Jesus
What He is:
1. A Messenger
2. Allah's Word (His word) وَكَلِمَتُهُ (wa kalimatuhu)
3. A Spirit from Allah (from him)

Is this correct?

If Jesus is the Word of Allah, it means that he is the kunfayakun of Allah whether you like it or not. According to Qur'an 4:171, Jesus was NOT created by the command of Allah, Jesus Himself is the Command of Allah (it goes against what your Scholars teach,but his is what Allah says). Too bad you follow your scholars rather than Allah!

honesttalk21:
When it comes to Jesus’ miracles, they don’t necessarily indicate divinity. The Qur’an recounts how he fashioned a bird from clay and breathed life into it, but it emphasizes that this was done bi idhnillāh “by Allah’s permission.” Do you say this isn't in the Arabic of the Qur'an or claim it's absence in your misconstrued versions?
Moses parted the sea, Abraham was saved from fire, and Muhammad pbuh split the moon yet none of them were gods. Miracles serve as demonstrations of God’s power, not evidence of godhood.

Miracles by themselves do not equate Divinity.
Unfortunately, there are Miracles that are exclusive only to God like
1. Creation of Life
2. Forgiveness of Sin
Not one human being is given this privilege as it belongs only to God.

Mohammed did not split the moon. Mohammed was copying the Poem of the pre-Islamic Arab Christian poet called Imru' al-Qais.
Imru' al-Qais lived in the 6th century CE, before the birth of Muhammad (around 570 CE), making his poetry part of the Jahiliyyah (pre-Islamic) Arabic poetic tradition.
Why was Allah copying the poem Imru' al-Qais. wrote for his woman?

Secondly, Qur'an 54:1 never ever said anywhere that Mohammed split the moon, this is the voice of your scholars you are hearing rather than Allah's voice.

If you disagree, I can help you throw more spanners in the wheel of Untruths you have been fed with

So[b], what other miracle did Allah use to confirm that he sent Mohammed to the Arabs?
[/b]

honesttalk21:
Regarding the virgin birth, the true testament wasn’t in some hidden biological miracle but in the baby Jesus speaking from the cradle, declaring: “Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet” (Qur’an 19:30). Right from the start, Jesus proclaimed his servitude to God, not his equality with Him.

And Mary forgot to tell Luke this story!?

But the argument was about the Virgin Birth of Jesus. You said

Tell us it is a lie that the rarity of Jesus isn't that he had no father but he has a mother. He was commanded into being to serve as a sign to the Israelites

I asked what was the Evidence that Jesus was Born without a Father to the Jews?
Only islamic miracles happen without WITNESSES

Your prophet again was copying tales of the ancients again and putting it in the Qur'an as if it was from Allah. The source is the Arabic Infancy Gospel written about 6th century AD (600 years after the Jesus).

Indeed Mohamed is the voice claiming to be Allah, this is why he forgets that Allah was the one supposed to be speaking and not himself while dictating the Qur'an.

honesttalk21:
Christians also refer to Jesus as the Son of God. However, the Bible itself refers to Adam as the son of God, Israel as God’s firstborn son, and the righteous as sons of God. Clearly, this is metaphorical, indicating a closeness to God rather than literal divinity. The Qur’an clarifies this confusion: “Say: He is Allah, One. Allah, the Eternal. He neither begets nor is begotten” (Qur’an 112:1–3). Asking who fathered Jesus is akin to asking who fathered Adam – both were created by God without human fathers.

No!
The problem is ridiculously simple.
The Identity or personality called Allah is different from the Identity or personality called YHWH.

This is the problem and it is the Truth.

Is Allah the same as YHWH?

Only God YHWH chooses who He calls SONS and the reverse is IMPOSSIBLE sir!

honesttalk21:
Even the idea that God’s love necessitated Him becoming flesh is a bit off the mark. In Islam, it’s taught that Allah’s mercy extends to everyone. He cares for both believers and non-believers, the thankful and the ungrateful alike. However, His special love is reserved for those who choose to follow His guidance. Love doesn’t imply that God has to diminish Himself to connect with humanity; rather, it signifies that He elevates humanity through revelation and forgiveness.

I asked you a question you have not answered:
Is it possible to undo a violation of the kunfayakun of God?

Does God's forgiveness without justice remove the violation of the kunfayakun of God?

Think before you answer these two questions?

honesttalk21:
So, who exactly was Jesus? He was a Word from Allah, but not the eternal Word. He was a spirit created by Allah, distinct from Allah Himself. He was the Messiah, endowed with miracles, yet never considered divine. He stated, “I am the servant of Allah.” The Qur’an cautions: “They have disbelieved who say, ‘Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary.’ Say: Who has power to prevent Allah if He willed to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, his mother, and everyone on earth?” (Qur’an 5:17).

Repeating yourself doesn't make you correct. It is just an expression of wish predicated by your Islamic scholars.

Can you show any miracle of Allah that was witnessed by anyone by which we can conclude that he is God the Creator? Talk is cheap sir!

Who is JESUS?
Jesus is God YHWH who entered into His Creation so that He can take their punishment that His Justice might be fulfilled on Sinners AND that His Mercy can be extended on those sinners who accept His Love and Sacrifice.
Why do you think His message was the GOOD NEWS?
The price of your freedom has been paid by your God so that you who should spend eternity in Hell is set free and given a place with God.

John 1:12-13:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."


Islamic theology without basis

In Islam,
-Jibril is the Holy Spirit!
-Angels are not spirits but created from light
-The nature of spirit is unknown
-Jesus is also a Spirit

Tell me is Jesus also the Holy Spirit or He is the unholy Spirit?

honesttalk21:
In Islam, Jesus is revered as a prophet, a sign, and a servant of Allah – all while maintaining the purity of God’s oneness. This is the essence of balance: to love and follow Jesus without elevating him to the status of God.

Islam came for just one purpose!
To mislead people away from the Free Gift of Salvation paid for by God Himself.

If you care to note:
Islam ACCEPTS almost everything in the religion of Jews and Christians that have nothing to do with SALVATION!
But
Islam REJECTS everything in the religion of Jews and Christians that has to do with SALVATION

In Islam:
1. Jesus did NOT die on the Cross
2. Jesus did NOT resurrect from the dead
3. Jesus did not save us by His blood

Islam turns the face of people from the Gift of Salvation from God to humans to Observance of Religious Rituals

honesttalk21:
....
In Islam, Jesus is revered as a prophet, a sign, and a servant of Allah – all while maintaining the purity of God’s oneness. This is the essence of balance: to love and follow Jesus without elevating him to the status of God.

Islam really doesn't know God because if you do, you will not create a new form of monotheism without the TRUE God of Creation.

Islam desires a God like the Creations where God can be in one place and location at a time.

TRINITY is a Description of YHWH
1. YHWH is One
2. YHWH is Unlike His Creations
3. YHWH can be SOMEWHERE and EVERYWHERE at the same time
4. The whole Universe is contained within YHWH (there is NOTHING outside Him)

This is what Mohammed didn't understand or chose not to understand.
1. Allah is one (Don't forget that I lis is One too)
2. Allah is very much like creations who can only be in one location at a time.
3. Allah is a subset of the Universe before he created his throne above the seventh heaven with air above him and water below his throne

Sunan Ibn Majah 182
Waki' bin Hudus narrated that his paternal uncle Abu Razin said: "I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: He was above the clouds, below which was air, and above which was air and water. Then He created His Throne above the water.'"

I am sure you will explain away the words of your prophet as usual.

honesttalk21:
Even in discussions about legal matters, some critics take issue with Islam’s divorce rules, labeling them as harsh. However, the stipulation that a husband who hastily divorces his wife three times cannot immediately take her back is actually a protective measure, not an act of cruelty. It ensures that marriage isn’t treated like a game played out of anger and regret. The Prophet pbuh spoke out against the practice of declaring a triple divorce all at once, emphasizing that this law is meant to prevent abuse rather than create injustice.

The islamic ruling is not harsh o. It is completely UNJUST and UNFAIR.

Let me show you again!

Let me show you:
1. A righteous Muslim woman married a Muslim man with a short temper and she truly loves her husband.
2. One day, this man (without evidence) accused his wife of an offence and in anger, he pronounced divorce THREE times on his wife
3. Two days later, he discovered that he was in error and the wife that loves him is gone
4. According to Islam as allowed by Allah, this lovely obedient wife cannot go back to her husband for it is haram.
5. In Islamic wisdom, the woman must be "boreholed" by another willing Muslim who will marry her so that he can divorce her after.

What is the WISDOM in this my Brother?

Who is being punished for the rashness of the woman's husband in this case?
Is it the man or the wife?

Obviously, it is the Wife who has to be humiliated by becomes borehole to another man not her husband so that she can return to him and her children!
Is this a FAIR judgment on the Wife?
Is this a JUST judgement on the Wife?
What is the punishment for the Man?

Can you just see how the religion of Lah humiliates "righteous" Muslim wives?

honesttalk21:
On another note, the Christian assertion that Jesus is the Word made flesh ultimately falls apart under scrutiny. If “Word of God” refers to divine essence, then figures like Adam, angels, and even the universe itself created by God’s command would also share in that divinity. If miracles are what establish godhood, then we’d have to consider Moses and Elijah as gods too. The phrase “Son of God” poses its own contradictions; if taken literally, it clashes with scripture, and if seen as metaphorical, it loses its impact. The Qur’an brings back a sense of balance by recognizing Jesus as the Messiah, a servant, a prophet, and a sign but never as God.

Is this assertions of Christians or statements from the Bible?
Correct yourself please!

Jesus himself according to Quran 4:171 is the command of Allah (Jesus IS Allah's Word, cast down to Mary). You changed (wa kalimatuhu) to (Kalimatun minhu) which is not in Quran 4:171.
Why do Muslims tell so much opposite of T.R. U. T.H.s just to defend Islam?

honesttalk21:
If indeed you are honest, present your findings on the Aramaic and Hebrew of John 1 and show that the phrase translating to bi-idhniLlah isn't in the Arabic of the Qur'an verses of Jesus 's miracles.

I don't understand what you mean but I can do better by giving you the Greek of John 1:1 . The Aramaic and Hebrew of John 1:1 are translations just as English is a translation.

Please find attached!

butterfly777:
Let me start by saying that if you have any opinion to the contrary, present it.

Evidence that Islam is a man made religion.

The claims in Islamic books such as the Quran and Hadith include:
1. Islam started in Mecca.
2. Muhammed lived in the 7th century B.C.
3. The Quran was written shortly after Muhammed's death.
4. Mecca as a city existed since the days of Abraham, as a popular trade and reliigious center, where, first worshippers flocked for pilgrimage.

These claims have not been changed for a long time, at least not commonly. The evidences were mainly circulating in academic and scholarly circles. And all the while, researchers continued to dscovers evidences.

Unfortunately, and to the disappointment of many faithful of the Islamic religion, the evidences reveal that the Islamic claim about Mecca, Muhammed and the foundations fo the religion are false.

Findings by researchers and acheologists show that:
1. Islam started in Jordan, not Mecca.
2. The earliest Muslim kiblah faced Petra in Jordan, not Mecca.
3. Those who wrote the Quran did so after the Masjid in Jerusalem was built, and coins were invented, which is decades after Muhammed was claimed to have died.
4. There was no Muhammed, Mecca or pilgrimage to Mecca until decades or even centuries after they were purported to be in existence.

Before you start raising questions, this 5-minute video will guide you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4Z8kegepbs?si=t842kalWgwZL54uQ

Perhaps you should view this to start.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl0r52VZH6A?si=5WlRgVldwWZG1jGx

butterfly777:
Let me start by saying that if you have any opinion to the contrary, present it.

Evidence that Islam is a man made religion.

The claims in Islamic books such as the Quran and Hadith include:
1. Islam started in Mecca.
2. Muhammed lived in the 7th century B.C.
3. The Quran was written shortly after Muhammed's death.
4. Mecca as a city existed since the days of Abraham, as a popular trade and reliigious center, where, first worshippers flocked for pilgrimage.

These claims have not been changed for a long time, at least not commonly. The evidences were mainly circulating in academic and scholarly circles. And all the while, researchers continued to dscovers evidences.

Unfortunately, and to the disappointment of many faithful of the Islamic religion, the evidences reveal that the Islamic claim about Mecca, Muhammed and the foundations fo the religion are false.

Findings by researchers and acheologists show that:
1. Islam started in Jordan, not Mecca.
2. The earliest Muslim kiblah faced Petra in Jordan, not Mecca.
3. Those who wrote the Quran did so after the Masjid in Jerusalem was built, and coins were invented, which is decades after Muhammed was claimed to have died.
4. There was no Muhammed, Mecca or pilgrimage to Mecca until decades or even centuries after they were purported to be in existence.

Before you start raising questions, this 5-minute video will guide you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4Z8kegepbs?si=t842kalWgwZL54uQ

The city of Mecca: centre of trade and religion
Although the 6th-century client states were the largest Arab polities of their day, it was not from them that a permanently significant Arab state arose. Rather, it emerged among independent Arabs living in Mecca (Makkah) at the junction of major north–south and west–east routes, in one of the less naturally favoured Arab settlements of the Hejaz (al-Ḥijāz). The development of a trading town into a city-state was not unusual, but, unlike many other western Arabian settlements, Mecca was not centred on an oasis or located in the hinterland of any non-Arab power. Although it had enough well water and springwater to provide for large numbers of camels, it did not have enough for agriculture; its economy depended on long-distance as well as short-distance trade.

Mecca under the Quraysh clans
Sometime after the year 400 ce Mecca had come under the control of a group of Arabs who were in the process of becoming sedentary;

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Islamic-world/Formation-and-orientation-c-500-634#ref26868

The claim that Islam started in Jordan is a discredited revisionist theory. The Qur’an itself names Bakkah (Mecca), pre-Islamic poetry and Arab traditions describe pilgrimage there, and ancient geographers like Ptolemy recorded it. Even the historians who suggested Petra later retracted it. Mainstream scholarship accepts Mecca and Medina in the Hijaz as the cradle of Islam.