JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False - Christianity Etc (12) - Nairaland
Nairaland Forum › Nairaland General › Christianity Etc › JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False (8934 Views)
1 2 3 ... 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Reply (Go Down)
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by TenQ(op): 8:13am On Aug 22, 2025 |
honesttalk21:Which is better 1. For God to say, the one who violated a person violated Me and say Rom 12:19: "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place to wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, said the Lord." honesttalk21:Justice is to unrape the raped: which is an impossibility. What good deeds will atone for a violent rape and the attendant secondary consequences? I burnt down your house but decided daily to weed your yard. Is it commensurate? Islam and spiritual ignorance! honesttalk21:Yes, Hitler will face his sins the question is has he been forgiven or not. AND His victims will also face their own sins forgiven or not. It is impossible for Hitler to undo any evil he has done to others. The Power and Mercy of YHWH Forgive and Restore even the worst of sinners TOTALLY! BUT Allah's mercy and forgiveness is PARTIAL! This had been your argument all along! honesttalk21:Repeating falsehood a million times doesn't change the truth honesttalk21:Islam shows that Allah is incapable of forgiving Totally and his mercy is only partial! honesttalk21:Because God invented the ordinance of sacrifice and ransom for another life. Thus it please the Lord to lay on Christ the iniquity of us all! honesttalk21:Read my explanation of the difference between the consequence of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS distinct from rewards for Deeds good or bad. honesttalk21:People only go to hell for their Sins and not what others did to them. At least you agreed that a raped person cannot be unraped! honesttalk21:Because this is about judgement on earth not in the afterlife. honesttalk21:Untill you can prove that it is possible to unrape a raped victim, your question is faulty. Justice for the victim is that God himself take the offence/crime personally. Again: Rom 12:19: "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place to wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, said the Lord." honesttalk21:Every man will pay for his sins and no one gets rewarded for being offended! This is what you claim Islam is teaching: that some people will get rewarded for being oppressed! See how silly it sounds! honesttalk21:Sacrifice for sin is EVIDENCE that Ransom has been paid. Otherwise the sinner bears the full weight of the consequence of Sin. The wages of Sin is ETERNITY in hell honesttalk21:The fact that Allah cannot forgive TOTALLY and his Mercy is PARTIAL is not my fault. It is impossible to Totally undo any crime against humanity. My Gods MERCY is Total and His Forgiveness is Total. honesttalk21:1. Salvation is by Faith alone. Faith is proved by the fruit it produces. 2. After Salvation is Reward for Faithfulness and Deeds honesttalk21:Is Israel a Righteous Nation!? No sir, Israel did not suffer for the sins of any nation. Israel suffered exiles for their own Sin. Except you concur that Israel is a RIGHTEOUS nation. Is Israel a Righteous Nation according to Islam? |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 1:15pm On Aug 22, 2025 |
TenQ:1. Justice in Islam vs. Christianity You mock Islam because Allah does not “undo” a crime. But your Bible doesn’t claim God undoes crimes either — it says He “remembers them no more” (Jer. 31:34, Heb. 10:17). That means He no longer holds them against the sinner. Islam says the same, but with an added dimension: no victim is erased. Every oppressor must repay, and every victim is compensated, even if the oppressor repents. That’s not partial forgiveness; that’s comprehensive justice. Meanwhile, your system allows the guilty to walk free at the expense of the innocent (Jesus), and leaves the victim uncompensated. Which is really “partial”? 2. Isaiah 53 in Context Isaiah repeatedly calls Israel God’s “servant”: 41:8–9, 44:1–2, 49:3. To read “servant” as Israel is not far-fetched — it is the prophet’s own language. The servant can be sinful and still chosen for God’s mission. Israel is called “God’s son” (Hos. 11:1) and His “witness” (Isa. 43:10), even while guilty of sin. So the objection “Israel sinned, therefore not the servant” collapses. “Bearing sins” in Hebrew often means enduring the consequences of others’ evil, not transferring guilt (cf. Lam. 5:7). Israel bore exile, persecution, and oppression caused by the nations’ iniquity — not their guilt. 3. Ezekiel 18 Destroys Substitution God says plainly: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Ezek. 18:20). That is divine law. If guilt cannot pass from father to son, how can it pass from humanity to Jesus? If Isaiah 53 meant substitution, it would directly contradict Ezekiel. The Jewish/Islamic reading avoids contradiction; the Christian reading creates it. 4. Your Own Bible Supports Compensation You sneer that Islam says victims are “rewarded” for being wronged. But your own scripture says: “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord” (Rom. 12:19). Repayment is exactly compensation. If you mock that, you mock Paul as well. 5. The Choice Jewish/Islamic reading: Israel, God’s servant, suffers because of the nations, is vindicated, and God remains consistent with His law of justice. Christian reading: One man dies for all, guilt is transferred, and God violates His own word in Ezekiel. You can’t have it both ways. Either accept scripture as it stands, or admit you’re following Paul’s theology, not the Torah and Prophets. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by TenQ(op): 3:24pm On Aug 22, 2025 |
honesttalk21:Even you agree that Injustice can NEVER be UNDONE, it can only be punished. It is an exercise in futility for you to think that rewarding the offended is justice for them. There is nothing like compensation if the evil and it's resultant consequences can never be rewritten. Meaning that justice in Islam is a fluke. Also, Allah does partial forgiveness and partial mercy: so much for a God! If Jesus was a man, you have a point BUT he isn't a son of Adam sir. This is Why the Word became Human somas to Represent us . The key to Salvation is that it is FREE for the sinner even though impossible to pay by non other than God Himself. honesttalk21:You are just repeating yourself. Is Israel a Righteous Nation? Yes or No! Does Israel beat the Sin of Muslims? Yes or No! honesttalk21:Another repetition In have dealt with meaning that you chosen to be ignorant. I can't help you with that! honesttalk21:Boohoo! It is our God that is Repaying NOT the Righteous or the Sinner. Didn't you read my explanation!? Please go back and read! LOL! honesttalk21:If the Jews were correct, why did you choose to be a Muslim and not a Jew? If the Jews were correct, why did you choose to follow Allah and not YHWH? Islam is a compilation of Rituals without Spirituality! Let me ask you a basic spiritual Question: 1. Who prescribed the ordinance of sacrifice of animals for the sin of Israel? 2. Why? |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 5:09pm On Aug 22, 2025 |
TenQ:If injustice cannot be undone, then your cross collapses too. Crucifying an innocent doesn’t “unrape the victim” or restore what was destroyed. Justice can only stand if God holds the sinner accountable and that is exactly what Islam teaches: “Every soul earns only against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another” (Qur’an 6:164, Ezek. 18:20). You ask if Israel is righteous or if Israel bears Muslims’ sins. Isaiah himself answers: “Israel, My servant” (Isa. 41:8; 44:1–2; 49:3). Israel suffers at the hands of nations, not because guilt was transferred, but because nations oppressed them. Isaiah 53 is the nations confessing: “We thought him cursed, but he was pierced because of our transgressions.” That is not substitution it is vindication. God shows Israel’s suffering was unjust, and that revelation brings recognition and healing. And Ezekiel 18 still stands: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.” If guilt cannot pass from father to son, how can it leap onto Jesus? Unless you say God contradicts Himself. Even sacrifice in Torah was never guilt transfer. Hosea 6:6: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Psalm 51: “You do not delight in sacrifice… the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit.” Sacrifices symbolized repentance, not substitution. So Islam is consistent: God forgives sins against Him through repentance, and He compensates victims for sins against them. Christianity is inconsistent; it denies injustice can be undone yet claims it is erased by punishing the innocent. And no, I’m not a Jew—because Jews rejected Muhammad pbuh, the final prophet foretold (Deut. 18:18, John 16:13). Islam alone preserves the pure monotheism of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by TenQ(op): 8:04pm On Aug 22, 2025 |
honesttalk21:This meaning that you are not listening. 1. Even God known that injustice cannot be undone 2. God therefore says crime unto humanity is crime unto Him 3. The punishment of crime unto God is Eternity in Hell fires 4. No one gets rewarded for being unjustly treated 5. Whether in heaven or hell everyone will receive his wages for whatever he has done. 6. Since ALL humanity is guilty of sin and thus candidates of hell, God took up the punishment for whoever cannot afford to carry his burden in hell 7. This is a Gift of God for whoever will receive this Gift So, as a Muslim, you will bear your own burden in Hell for you have sinned against the Almighty God in thought, Deeds and Inactions to Him directly or Indirectly. I beg you to think as you CANNOT bear your burden of Sin for Eternity in Hell honesttalk21:My question was simple and direct. I didn't ask if Israel was a servant of God, I asked to you as a Muslim 1. Is Israel a RIGHTEOUS servant? Yes or No! 2. Did God put your sin on Israel as a Muslim? Yes or No! honesttalk21:Tell me why the Jews made sacrifice for sin in the Temple then according to the law of Moses? honesttalk21:You have shown that Allah CANNOT forgive TOTALLY! You have also shown that Allah's mercy is Partial! Another prove of a Deity who speaks only Arabic and makes claims he cannot back up with action. Just tell me how a raped victim can be compensated? Only in Islam is a person rewarded just because he was victimised. SMH!! honesttalk21:What a silly argument! How you managed to convince yourself that a corrupted book contains Mohammed is unbelievable. 1. Deut 18:18 no wonder, Allah cut the Aorta of your prophet for speaking lies 2. John 16:13 so, Jesus sent Mohammed to this world? They think that the more they insist on a lie, the more it becomes the truth. SMH!! We are still looking for Mohammed's name in the Torah and Injeel till now! |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 8:44pm On Aug 22, 2025 |
TenQ:1. Is Israel a righteous servant? No. Israel as a nation is not righteous. The Tanakh repeatedly describes Israel as stubborn, rebellious, unfaithful, and adulterous (Isaiah 1:4; Jeremiah 3:6; Ezekiel 16). That’s why Israel was sent into exile. In Isaiah, the “servant” imagery shifts, sometimes it’s the nation, sometimes the faithful remnant, and sometimes an individual prophetic figure. But the idea that sinful Israel is the “sinless substitute for the nations” doesn’t fit. This is why Christians interpret the “Servant” of Isaiah 53 not as the sinful nation, but as a righteous individual set apart. 2. Did God put your sins on Israel as a Muslim? No. Neither the Tanakh nor the Qur’an says “the sins of Muslims (or nations) were placed on Israel.” In Jewish interpretation, Israel suffers because of the nations’ sins (persecution, oppression), not in place of the nations’ sins. Big difference. The nations thought Israel was cursed, but God ultimately vindicates Israel. So the claim that “Israel bore your sins” collapses. It makes Israel into a savior, which Jews, Christians, and Muslims don’t actually believe. 3. Why did Jews sacrifice in the Temple? Because the Law of Moses required sacrifices as signs of atonement, purification, and covenant renewal. The blood symbolized that sin leads to death, and that humans need repentance and cleansing. But notice: sacrifice was never a magical transfer of guilt. God Himself said, “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise” (Psalm 51:16–17). Hosea 6:6 adds: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” The prophets constantly rebuked Israel for offering sacrifices while living in sin proving the rituals themselves didn’t save. They pointed beyond themselves to repentance and obedience. So sacrifice = symbol, not substitution. Otherwise, repentance would be irrelevant. 4. You claim Allah only forgives partially. That’s a strawman. In Islam, Allah forgives completely when He forgives. Qur’an 39:53 says: “Do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins.” What you confuse is the balance between mercy and justice. If someone wrongs another, forgiveness doesn’t mean the victim’s rights are erased. The oppressor remains accountable unless the victim pardons him. That’s not “partial mercy” that’s mercy plus justice. In your system, God forgives the sinner but leaves the victim with nothing but scars. In Islam, the victim’s suffering is acknowledged and repaid in the Hereafter. Which is more just? 5. Your “compensation for rape” challenge. You argue, “Unrape is impossible therefore justice is impossible.” That’s wrong. Justice isn’t undoing history; it’s repayment and rebalancing. Even in human courts, no judge “unrapes” a victim. Instead, the criminal is punished and compensation is awarded. That’s human justice. Likewise, God’s justice in Islam punishes or forgives according to His wisdom, but always ensures that the oppressed are not forgotten. You mock this as “being rewarded for victimization,” but in your system, the victim is erased while the sinner walks away clean. Which system is actually “silly”? 6. Deut. 18:18 and John 16:13. Deut. 18:18: God promises a prophet like Moses from among the brethren of Israel meaning the Ishmaelites. Christians claim this is Jesus, but Jesus was an Israelite, not from Israel’s “brethren.” Muhammad pbuh fits a law-giving prophet, raised from the descendants of Ishmael. John 16:13: Jesus promises the Spirit of Truth, who will guide into all truth, not speak on his own, and glorify Jesus. This aligns perfectly with Muhammad pbuh, who delivered revelation (not his own words), revealed truth, and honored Jesus as Messiah but not God. Christians say this is the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was already active before but the Holy Spirit was already active before Jesus’ departure (Luke 1:15; Luke 3:22). As for the “aorta” claim, it’s baseless. The Prophet pbuh died naturally after completing his mission. And the Qur’an was revealed in Arabic not because God “only speaks Arabic,” but because revelation comes in the language of its people its message, however, is universal. Essentially, Israel is not righteous so it cannot be the universal sin-bearer. God never placed the sins of Muslims (or anyone) on Israel. Sacrifice was symbolic, not substitution. Allah forgives completely, but justice ensures victims aren’t erased. Forgiveness from Allah is contingent upon the wronged party's rights being restored or their forgiveness being sought in this life. Your system erases victims while pretending to show mercy, contradicting Ezekiel 18:20. Muhammad pbuh fulfills Deut. 18:18 and John 16:13 better than the Christian interpretation of Jesus does. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by TenQ(op): 6:56am On Aug 23, 2025 |
honesttalk21:If Israel is not a righteous servant, then this is A proof that Isaiah 53 is not about Israel! Is Jesus a righteous servant? honesttalk21:If Israel did not carry your sins then this is A proof that Isaiah 53 is not about Israel! Did Jesus carry the sins of the world according to the Bible? honesttalk21:You have said it @highlighted in yellow. The sacrificial animal becomes a ransom for their judgement as Israelites honesttalk21:True! Allah's forgiveness is partial because the forgiven must still pay for their sin according to you. And As long as the recipient of mercy must still pay for their Sins, Allah's mercy is Partial. honesttalk21:Justice is returning EXACTLY what was stolen, killed or destroyed in one or several folds. There is no justice for the offended without full restoration according to what was deprived him/her. Nigerians shout, "Justice for Mobad"! Can justice for Mobad be done other than being Mobad back to Life and heal the Trauma caused everyone involved!? honesttalk21:The scripture is clear on this: 1. The person is from amongst the Israelites: Moses made it clear Deu 18:15: "The LORD your God will raise up to you a Prophet from the middle of you, of your brothers, like to me; to him you shall listen;" Are these verses referencing Mohammed? Deut 18:2, Deut 18:7, 2. Mohammed's Aorta was cut for speaking lies about God Deu 18:20: "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die." Quran 69:44-47 Had he (Prophet Muhammad) faked some sayings in Our name, We would have certainly seized him by the right hand, and then severed his aorta (life-artery), and none of you could have withheld Us from doing so. Mohammed himself says his Aorta was being dealt with because of the rat poison a Jewish woman put in his food! Is this untrue? 3. Jesus is the prophet spoken about by Moses in Deut 18:18 Acts 3:20-23: "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached to you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said to the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up to you of your brothers, like to me; him shall you hear in all things whatever he shall say to you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." Find me just one Qur'an verse that says Mohammed was the prophet Moses spoke about? honesttalk21:The same Book of John says Who the Spirit of Truth is: Is Mohammad the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth) John 14:17: "He is the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you." Did Mohammed live with the Disciples of Jesus? Did the Disciples of Jesus know anyone called Mohammed? Do you concur that Jesus sent Mohammed to the world? John 15:26 honesttalk21:Mohammed certainly definitely died from the poison which affected his Aorta Sahih al-Bukhari 4428 Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet in his illness in which he died, used to say, "O ‘Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison." honesttalk21:Good, Isaiah 53 couldn't have been about Israel then. Thank you! honesttalk21:But this was the ordinance given by God for the forgiveness of the children of Israel! Thank you! honesttalk21:Until you can negate the logic: Any forgiveness that requires the forgiven to pay back is not Total. Any Mercy that requires the guilty to pay back is only partial. honesttalk21:By splitting the moon!? Did Jesus send down Mohammed? Does the Apostles of Jesus know Mohammed? Does Mohammed live in the Apostles of Jesus? How you manage to successfully convince yourself of these errors is disturbing at best! |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by TenQ(op): 7:02am On Aug 23, 2025 |
Honesttalk21 Another hadith to show that Allah cut off Mohammed's Aorta Sunan Abi Dawud 4513 Narrated Umm Mubashshir: She said to the Prophet during the sickness from which he died: "What do you think about your illness, Apostle of Allah?" He said: "I do not think about my illness except that (the poisoned sheep of which he had eaten with you at Khaibar). This is the time when it cut off my aorta." This is the testimony of Mohammed himself isn't it? According to this hadith 1. Did Mohammed die from this poisoning? 2. Was Mohammed's Aorta cut according to Mohammed? |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 10:00am On Aug 23, 2025 |
TenQ: TenQ:1. Is Israel the righteous servant? No. The Tanakh calls Israel stubborn, rebellious, and adulterous (Isaiah 1:4; Jer. 3:6; Ezek. 16). That’s why they went into exile. The “servant” in Isaiah shifts: sometimes Israel, sometimes the remnant, sometimes a prophetic figure. But sinful Israel as a “sinless substitute for the nations” makes no sense. 2. Did God put our sins on Israel? No. Neither the Tanakh nor Qur’an says this. Jewish reading: Israel suffers because of nations’ sins (persecution), not instead of them. Making Israel the universal sin-bearer turns the nation into a savior which no faith tradition teaches consistently. 3. Why Temple sacrifices? They symbolized atonement and purification, but were never magical transfers of guilt. God said: “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit” (Psalm 51:16-17). Hosea 6:6: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Sacrifices pointed to repentance, not substitution. 4. Does Allah only forgive partially? False. Qur’an 39:53: “Allah forgives all sins.” Forgiveness is total. But Islam balances justice. If you wrong someone, their rights aren’t erased. Victims are repaid in the Hereafter. Your system erases the victim while “washing” the sinner. 5. Justice for crimes like rape. “Unrape” is impossible but justice means punishment + compensation, not undoing history. Courts don’t “unrape”; they punish and repay. Likewise, God in Islam ensures the oppressed are not forgotten. In your system, the victim is erased while the sinner walks free. How is this mutually balanced? 6. Deut. 18:18 & John 16:13. Deut. 18:18: Prophet like Moses from Israel’s “brethren” = Ishmaelites → Muhammad pbuh, not Jesus. John 16:13: Spirit of Truth guides, speaks not from himself, glorifies Jesus and Muhammad pbuh fits. Holy Spirit was already active before Jesus left. Israel is not righteous and cannot bear the world’s sins. God never laid our sins on Israel. Sacrifices = symbols, not substitution. Allah’s forgiveness is total + just. Islam protects victims; your system erases them. Muhammad pbuh fulfills Deut. 18:18 & John 16:13 more consistently than Jesus in Christian readings. The Qur’an’s verse about the aorta is a warning, not history. The Prophet pbuh survived the poison at Khaybar and lived years afterward, completing his mission. Far from disproving his Prophethood, his survival after Khaybar shows Allah’s protection until his mission was complete. His words about the aorta were figurative for pain, not a medical report. If dying in pain disqualifies a prophet, then what do you say about Jesus being beaten, humiliated, and crucified according to your own belief?” |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by TenQ(op): 10:23am On Aug 23, 2025 |
You are just repeating yourself as if the repetition will magically make the untrue become teue honesttalk21:Meaning that IF Israel is NOT the Righteous servant, then Israel was not being referred to in Isaiah 53! honesttalk21:But the sins were put upon the Righteous Servant who when have established is not Israel! honesttalk21:Was this an ordinance prescribed for the forgiveness of sins for the Jews by God? If it is, the sacrifice is their ransom! honesttalk21:As long as the forgiven has to pay for his sin, his forgiveness is partial. As long as the one who received mercy still has to pay, the mercy is Partial! honesttalk21:God says offence against anyone is offence against God. On your behalf God thus publishes sin. As long as some offences like rape cannot be undone, it is impossible to restore that which was lost. Moreover, only in Islam is a person rewarded for being mistreated. honesttalk21:#Are these verses also referencing Mohammed? Deut 18:2, Deut 18:7, #Is it UNTRUE that Mohammed himself says his Aorta was being dealt with because of the rat poison a Jewish woman put in his food! #According to John 14:17 -Did Mohammed live with the Disciples of Jesus? -Did the Disciples of Jesus know anyone called Mohammed? Repeating falsehood a billion times will not magically transform it into the truth. I know you wish this was Mohammed BUT he isn't, please find another argument honesttalk21:Repeating falsehood wouldn't make it turn into the truth even if you repeat yourself a billion times. This was why you couldn't answer the question I posed from the verses. honesttalk21:1. Did your hadith say Mohammed died from the Ailment from eating the poisoned meat at Khayba? Yes or No!? 2. Did Mohammed himself say that "I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison." Yes or No!? Muslims will begin to lie in the face of overwhelming EVIDENCE against what their Qur'an, Hadiths or Tafsirs say. Notice how you have to follow the narrative of your scholars even when they contradict either Allah, Mohammed, the Qur'an, the Hadiths or Tafsirs SMH! |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 10:47am On Aug 23, 2025 |
TenQ:Repeating the same slogans won’t turn falsehood into truth. Simply shouting “Israel is not righteous, therefore Isaiah 53 must be Jesus” is not evidence. The Book of Isaiah itself alternates. Sometimes the servant is Israel (Isaiah 41:8; 44:1–2; 49:3), sometimes an individual. Isaiah 53 belongs to that flow. The Jewish reading that the servant is Israel collectively fits the context. And let’s be clear; if Israel isn’t sinless, neither were David, Solomon, or Peter. Yet Scripture still calls them righteous because of covenant faithfulness, not sinless perfection. 1. Sacrifice in the Law Yes, Mosaic Law prescribed animal sacrifices. But forgiveness came only with a contrite heart. Psalm 51:16–17: “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart.” Sacrifice was a sign of repentance, not a magical guilt-transfer to an animal. To claim otherwise ignores God’s own words. 2. “Partial Mercy” is a Misrepresentation In Islam, Allah’s forgiveness is absolute. Wronging another person, however, also requires justice for the victim. That’s not “partial mercy” that’s perfect justice. The oppressor cannot hide behind cheap grace. In Christianity, a murderer or rapist could claim “Jesus paid it all” while the victim is erased. Islam dignifies the oppressed by rewarding their patience and restoring their rights. Mercy and justice work together. 3. Offense Against Man vs. God Ezekiel 18:20 says: “The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.” Your system violates this principle by shifting guilt onto another. Islam is consistent: sins against God are between you and Him; sins against people require both God’s pardon and restoration of the victim’s rights. 4. Deut. 18 & John 14–16 Deut. 18:18: the prophet will come from Israel’s “brothers.” The Ishmaelites are Israel’s closest brothers (Gen. 16:12; Deut. 2:4). That fits Muhammad pbuh, not Jesus, who was himself an Israelite. John 16:13: the Spirit of Truth “will come” to guide into all truth, not speak on his own, and glorify Jesus. This aligns with Muhammad pbuh, who came later, delivering revelation from God and honoring Jesus as Messiah not God. The text points forward, not backward. 5. The “Aorta” Claim Yes, the Prophet pbuh once said, “I feel as if my aorta is being cut.” That was metaphor, not medicine just as Jeremiah cried, “My heart is torn in me!” (Jer. 4:19). No one thinks his heart literally split open. If poison truly killed him, why did his companion die within hours while he lived for three more years? Why did he live long enough to conquer Makkah, deliver the Farewell Sermon, and complete the religion (Qur’an 5:3)? That fulfills God’s promise (Qur’an 5:67) to protect him until his mission was complete. And if dying in pain disqualified a prophet, then by your logic, the crucifixion would disqualify Jesus. Islam’s position is consistent: Isaiah 53 = Israel as God’s covenant servant, not sinless perfection. Sacrifice = symbol of repentance, not guilt-transfer. Allah’s mercy = complete forgiveness + justice for victims. Deut. 18 & John 16 = fulfilled in Muhammad pbuh, not Jesus. The “aorta” statement = metaphor, not divine judgment. Repeating distortions doesn’t make them true. As the Qur’an says:l “Truth stands clear from falsehood” (2:256). |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by TenQ(op): 1:55pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
honesttalk21:You have repeatedly said these four times now without answering the basic questions I asked you not falsify my rebuttal against you. Until you find a proper rebuttal, repeating these same things one billion times changes nothing. It is just falsehood repeated many many times. Your prophet eat a poisoned beef The little he took was enough to do the damage damage: he never recovered. No wonder you cannot answer a direct question but reassert your wish 1. Did your hadith say Mohammed died from the Ailment from eating the poisoned meat at Khayba? Yes or No!? 2. Did Mohammed himself say that "I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison." Yes or No!? The questions are straight to the point. But trust Muslims, they will not answer a question because answering them breaks the standard Islamic narrative. Your argument: The companions died immediately because they swallowed too much of the poisoned beef Your prophet tasted of the poisoned beef without swallowing much. So, any difference is just in the quantity of rat poison swallowed and the time to kill. Your prophet died by rat poison! You know the problem: Can you answer WHY 1. Jibril didn't warn Mohammed that the beef contained rat poison. 2. Even the food did not say "Oh prophet of Allah, rat poison is in me o: don't eat me"? (Considering the fact that even trees and stones acknowledge Mohammed as the prophet of Allah) 3. Allah saved Jesus according to Islam BUT allowed the Greatest prophet in the universe to die very SLOWLY through rat poison? Why? 4. How come Allah did not relieve the Greatest prophet in the universe from the AGONY and PAIN from the Poison for THREE straight years? Does Allah hate Mohammed this much? Again, I am sure you would say everything except answering my questions |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 2:14pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
TenQ:1. Did any hadith say Muhammad died from the poison of Khaybar? No. The reports say he tasted the poisoned meat, spat it out, later mentioned lingering pain, and in his final illness said: I feel as if my aorta is being cut. That is not the same as the poison killed him. Some scholars counted his death as martyrdom due to lingering effects but martyrdom ≠ death by poison, and it does not fulfill Qur’an 69:44–46 (a conditional warning). 2. Did he say I feel my aorta is cut from that poison? Yes but that’s figurative speech. Arabs used vivid imagery to describe pain. If an aorta were literally severed, death would be instant, not three years later. 3. The timeline matters. Khaybar poisoning = year 7 AH. Death = year 11 AH Afterward he conquered Makkah, received Qur’an 5:3 (This day I have perfected your religion), delivered the Farewell Sermon, and passed away at 63. That is mission completed, not mission cut short. 4. He was warned and protected. Reports say the lamb’s shoulder itself warned him; he spat it out. Others who ate more died quickly; he did not. Qur’an 5:67: Allah’s promise of protection meant safeguarding the mission, not wrapping him in a bubble against every trial. 5. Prophets are tested, not bubble-wrapped. Qur’an 3:186: You will surely be tested… Pain does not negate prophethood. By Christian belief, Jesus was scourged and crucified so pain is not proof of falsehood. 6. Why a painful illness? Trials elevate rank; prophets endure the hardest tests. A natural death after revelation was perfected (Q 5:3) is honor, not disgrace. Jesus was saved from crucifixion; Muhammad pbuh completed his mission and died victorious. Different prophets, different decrees. Bottom line: No hadith says “he died from the poison. His “aorta” remark = idiom, not literal autopsy. He lived years after Khaybar, perfected the religion, and died naturally. Qur’an 69:44–46 never applied, because he never lied. If pain at death disproves a prophet, then Christianity undercuts itself first with the crucifixion. Repeating “rat poison killed your prophet” won’t rewrite the record. The record shows survival, completion, and honor not failure. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by Gabrielshow24: 4:40pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
honesttalk21:Wayo logic😂. Jesus said he will raise himself in three days which he did by the way👀. Your prophet according to Allah died in the same way it was written he will die if he were a false prophet  . His own words also bear reference to it😮💨. You can't escape, this puerile mental gymnastics of yours is really comedic 😂.His aorta, whether you remark it as idiom or not, bears witness to the fact of the matter—he died a false prophet. The discredited hadiths that only stand in the madrasas😂, what a joke, mentions the event; they do not need to literally say, "he died of the poison" when the prophet already connoted that himself. The pain must have lingered on, and it was an ’important event’ for it to be recorded. Many people died a ’natural’ death but autopsy revealed otherwise. The cause of his death whether you claim it ’natural or not’ was the ’poisoned lamb’—That's what the ignorant writer aimed to show! ’Pain at death’ is irrelevant, it just buttresses the exactness of his mode of death—He died as Allah established a ’false prophet ’ would die🤕. TenQ just added syntactic sugar to buttress such a sweet point👌. His pain in this case is for his ’falsehood’, Christ's pain was for salvation. The bible teaches us to suffer for good than for evil For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing 1peter3:17. So you can't compare Christ's suffering to your prophet's own. There is a stark contrast! 😂 Off course, his repetition of such only affirms the record😮💨, you can't change that😂. ’He’ started as he meant to go on—A false prophet—and died as such😔. I know you see things through the lens of forme fruste ablepsia😂 but I will make you see. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 6:56pm On Aug 23, 2025*. Modified: 8:13pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
Gabrielshow24:I see your input into this discourse. Nothing new to say but re emphasize. 1. The “aorta” claim is misused Qur’an 69:44–46 is a conditional warning: “If he invented sayings against Us, We would cut his aorta.” It is not a prophecy of Muhammad’ pbuh 's death. Since he lived 23 years as Prophet, completed the Qur’an, and Allah declared “Today I have perfected your religion” (Q 5:3), the condition was never triggered. The hadith says he felt as if my aorta were cut.”That’s a simile for pain, not a medical autopsy. If literal, he would have dropped dead instantly. 2. Timeline proves survival Poisoning at Khaybar: year 7 AH. Death: year 11 AH. Four years laterafter Makkah’s conquest, the Farewell Sermon, and revelation of Q 5:3. Companions who ate more poison died quickly; he did not. He tried to stop them. This shows Allah’s protection until the mission was complete (Q 5:67). 3. Prophets are tested with suffering Pain at death does not equal falsehood. Otherwise, by Christian belief, Jesus was beaten, spat on, crowned with thorns, nailed to a cross, crying “Why have You forsaken me? And would be disqualified. Islam teaches suffering elevates prophets. We will surely test you…”(Q 3:186). The Prophet pbuh's illness, like Job’s, was a divine trial not a rejection. 4. False comparison with Jesus You say Christ suffered for salvation, Muhammad for falsehood. That’s theology, not evidence. Both endured pain before death. Christians read the crucifixion as redemptive; Muslims see the Prophet pbuh's illness as a test that raised his rank. Even the Bible says Though He was a Son, He learned obedience by what He suffered (Hebrews 5:8 ). Suffering = proof of obedience, not guilt. 5. Why didn’t Jibrīl warn? The Prophet pbuh was warned. The lamb’s shoulder spoke, and he spat it out. Others who swallowed more died quickly; he survived and stopped others from eating. That’s protection. Maybe enough to suffer a test, but safeguarded until the mission was finished. 6. Cause of death Narrations differ and say fever, headache, weakness. Some companions linked it to Khaybar poison, others didn’t. Scholars differ too as some say martyrdom (because of lingering effects), others natural illness. Either way, the Prophet pbuh died only after completing his mission. That’s the key. 7. The real contrast: Jesus vs Muhammad pbuh Qur’an 4:157 says Allah saved Jesus from crucifixion. Muhammad pbuh's mission was to deliver revelation and establish Islam. He did that. Pain at death is human reality not proof of falsehood. If it were, the crucifixion (by Christian belief) would disprove Jesus first. So no hadith says he died from poison. The aorta phrase is figurative, not Qur’an 69:46 fulfilled. Timeline shows survival and mission completed. Suffering does not discredit a prophet, it proves faith and elevates rank. Repeating poison killed your Prophet doesn’t change the record. The record shows protection, completion, and honor. I remind you of your scripture James 3:10 |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by Gabrielshow24: 8:41pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
honesttalk21:My dear, you are just repeating the same thing, I fear your periphrasis is alarming🤷. Let's dissect your ’repetitions’ 1. You claim it's a misuse but the fault should lie on your prophet since he didn't know ’too much words’ to express himself with; so he seemingly chose the one that fulfilled the ’conditional warning’—according to you—of Allah🤕. Hence it's not a misuse, it matters less whether he conquered ’your city’ afterwards when the effects of it lingered within him! That's the essence of his proclamation!🤷 2. As I have said in one, whether he survived years after doesn't mean the poison didn't have ’effects’ upon him to the extent that he affirmed such himself; so while yet he survived, he didn't survive long as the ’poison’ cut short his journey. Your last paragraph proved my point, the small dose he ate did a number on him but it wasn't immediate! I believe you should hold his own words more than those of others—In his own words, he felt the effects of the poison🙃; so whatever gymnastics you want to use to deflect the ’poison affirmation’ and the ’conditional warning’ from Allah away from him is baseless. 3. Of course all prophets are tested with suffering but not all get ’suffering as they would’ if they were to be ’false’ . This is where your prophet is different—He suffered for his ’falsehood’ unlike others! This is a false comparison, your prophet's suffering wasn't like Job's, his was self inflicted 👀— It's his reward from the ’conditional warning’! You should be proud that at least your prophet has a prophecy attached to him😁—prophecy of falsehood, this can also be found in scripture! At least in this respect his name is written in the bible👀4. Suffering, while proof of obedience could also be proof of other things🤷. It's not definitive for you to assert that his suffering is as a result of obedience when it could have also been as a result of falsehood —Which bears remarkable resemblance to the ’conditional warning’ Allah gave to us to ascertain, if he were indeed false🤷. Now the onus lies on you to show us that Allah's words didn't come true.🤔 Which will result in either Allah or your prophet's inability to express themselves properly 🤕 but I will rather stand with Allah! Allah's words are eternal thus your prophet, though his religion was completed, was portrayed to us, by Allah, as false! 5. Jibril didn't warn but the lamb warned him; it matters less as later circumstances proved to us that he was false! May I ask how did you intend for Allah to cut his aorta?— If he were indeed false. I suppose Allah won't cut his aorta literally, it's rather figurative👀 and such ’figurative language’ was met with another ’figurative phrase’ or ’simile’👀 by your prophet 🤕. This fulfilled Allah's ’figurative words or conditional warning ’. 6. Narrations will surely differ👀, but I stand with some of his companions that referenced the poisoned meat as the cause!— It was a notable event worth mentioning and was also referenced multiple times even by the prophet himself. So I stand with those companions. 7. Whether his mission was completed or not, also matters less. As the prophecy or ’conditional warning’ caught up to him before the ’completion’ of ’mission’—The catching up of the ’conditional warning’ is the key |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 9:05pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
Gabrielshow24:Mr Gabrielshow ....man 24 hrs present, pick the dirt in your eye before you poke at another's. 1. The aorta verse is conditional, not historical Qur’an 69:44–46 says: If he fabricated sayings in Our name, We would cut his aorta. That’s a test clause, not a prophecy. If Muhammad ﷺ had forged revelation, Allah would not have let him continue for a single day. Yet he lived 23 years as Prophet, completed revelation, and Allah declared: Today I have perfected your religion (Q 5:3). This you choose to ignore. If Allah Himself testified the mission was complete, your claim of falsehood collapses. 2. Figurative speech ≠ cause of death The Prophet pbuh said I feel as if my aorta is being cut. That’s a simile for pain, just like we say my head is splitting or my heart is broken. To take this literally is double standards because Christians themselves interpret Jesus’ cry Why have You forsaken me? figuratively. If you reject figurative speech for Muhammad, you must accept that God literally abandoned Jesus. Will you? 3. Medical reality refutes you A severed aorta yields instant death. Not hours. Not days. Instant. Since you feign to have missed it. Muhammad pbuh lived four years after Khaybar, conquered Makkah, gave the Farewell Sermon, and completed the Qur’an. The timeline and medical fact destroy your argument. 4. Prophets are tested, not bubble-wrapped Every prophet suffered. Job with disease, Jeremiah with prison, Moses with exile. And according to Christian belief Jesus with scourging and crucifixion. If pain = falsehood, then Jesus’ crucifixion disproves him first. One standard for all prophets, not one for Muhammad and another for Jesus. 5. Companions saw honor, not disgrace Yes, some companions linked his illness to Khaybar. But they called it martyrdom, not a curse. The Prophet pbuh taught that No believer is struck by pain even a thorn except Allah expiates some of his sins. His suffering raised his rank, it didn’t disprove him. You twist narrations; his companions saw honor. 6. Mission completed Even in his last illness, he led prayer, gave instruction, and emphasized Qur’an and Sunnah. He died only after Islam was fully established and preserved. False prophets die unfinished. Muhammad pbuh left nothing incomplete. The very survival and flourishing of Islam is proof of divine protection. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by Gabrielshow24: 9:54pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
honesttalk21:😂😂😂’it’s a clause not a prophecy’—wetin Adamu no go see for gate. Well, It's a lifetime binding clause on him! Which was fulfilled by him 👀 to show the forgery involved. That's reaching, a false assumption from you, as a lot of false prophets were ’fattened’👀; there are even verses— in the bible 👀 of course—that purports ’longevity of life of those that do wickedness’. So it's safe to say, that the reward of his ’falsehood’ came upon him in its own time🤨. Whether it took 23years or thousands more, it was fulfilled! —’that's key😂! Allah's testimony, while intriguing, does not in any way negate the fulfilling ’clause’ upon him🤨— They are not mutually exclusive. Allah might have ’completed’ his religion doesn't mean ’his aorta wasn't cut off’👀. You will have to prove that they are mutually exclusive which you have in no wise done🙃. 2. I don't see the reason why you have to go through this mental gymnastics when it's very clear. You along with your crew look for his mention in the bible; be it literally or figuratively, even in verses that doesn't fit👀 but somehow when using the same logic, you get offended.So, using Allah's exact words or ’conditional warning’ or ’clause’ along with his ’own affirmation ’ renders him a false prophet! 3. It doesn't only refute me, it likewise affirms me! There are plethora of medical issues that do not ’heavenalize’...permit me as I can't use the exact word, but you get my drift😁... One immediately 🤔. Also, I think we both agreed it was a figure of speech 👀—no case there! 4. Pain is just a forme fruste of a concept 🤔—the underlying concept could be good or bad. So pain by itself is not a determinant but on further analysis 👀, we see your prophet's own was self inflicted 🤔. One, sensibly speaking you do not eat the meal of a woman whose family members you just ’heavenalized’. Two, The proceeding circumstances😁...I feel my aorta...Confirms this as well. You can see the evidence is strong that unlike his ’fore runners’, his pain is self-inflicted. 5. Anyone can see anything in different circumstances doesn't mean it's the objective reality🤷. Have you watched the film that has a character name ’furiousa’?, I do remember🤔 a lot of boys there shouting, “witness me“ and others will shout ’witness’😮💨; as if it's some kind of honor 🤧. Your analogy bears remarkable resemblance to this above. Bringing them in, is insignificant! Whatsoever they think doesn't have effect on Allah's words! Survival doesn't mean divine protection . Even from apocalyptic scenes in scriptures does that will be left will be ’sinners’. Also, in this world, there's the concept called ’survival of the fittest’. We all know how your religion was established 😮💨, it fits nicely into the concepts I have outline above! It reminds of a monk that said, ’Prophets don't come with swords’. So..yeah, survival is not a sign of ’divine protection’ |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 10:35pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
Gabrielshow24:Powered up Gabrielshow24 covering base for his cousin or is it brother? Your mockery is not evidence. See again the reality. Qur’an 69:44–46 is a conditional clause that If he fabricated sayings, We would cut his aorta. If Muhammad pbuh had lied, his mission would have collapsed unfinished. But revelation was completed (Q 5:3), Islam was established, and his legacy endures. You cannot have both. Either he fabricated and Islam fails or he was truthful and Allah allowed completion. Your attempt to claim both is contradiction, not logic. Muhammad pbuh said feel as if my aorta is being cut which is a figurative speech for pain. Jesus said my God, my God, why have You forsaken me? (Matt. 27:46). Christians insist that’s figurative, not literal abandonment. Why one rule for Jesus and another for Muhammad pbuh? Be consistent. A severed aorta yields instant death, not survival. Muhammad pbuh lived for four years after Khaybar conquered Makkah, gave the Farewell Sermon, perfected religion. Medically explain this if you are intellectually competent to. Biology itself proves his words were metaphor, not medical fact. Prophets Are Tested with Suffering Moses fled after killing a man (Ex. 2:14). Jeremiah was beaten and jailed (Jer. 20:2). By Christian belief, Jesus was flogged, crowned with thorns, nailed to a cross. If pain = proof of falsehood, then all prophets including Jesus fail your test. If suffering can be noble for Jesus, it can be noble for Muhammad pbuh too. Companions Saw Martyrdom, Not Disgrace His companions never called his illness a punishment. They saw it as martyrdom, elevating his rank exactly as he himself taught, every pain expiates sins. To twist their reports into disgrace is your invention, not theirs. You say survival doesn’t prove protection. Yet in your own faith, Jesus did not survive but he was crucified in humiliation. If survival means nothing, your attack is meaningless. If survival matters, Muhammad pbuh's completed mission proves divine support. Either way, your logic undermines your own belief before Islam. Qur’an 69:44–46 was never triggered. His words were figurative, not literal. Medical fact destroys your poison killed him claim. All prophets suffered; pain never discredits. If pain proves falsehood, Jesus on the cross failed worse than anyone. Companions saw honor, not shame. His mission was completed and preserved and is proof of divine protection. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by Gabrielshow24: 11:03pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
honesttalk21:Still saying the same thing, it's like some rehearsal 😂, very monotonous—I guess this is the script you were given🤨... Mind you, saying it over and over doesn't make it true🤷. Let's dissect your rehashed ’script’ one after the other. This is false dichotomy, while I like your ingenuity in concocting this, but it stills fails. As even the Lord permits the existence of evil not that ’evil’ is truthful🤨. If I were to uphold your logic, then ’longevity’ warrants truthfulness 👀 —which is awfully false! Allah ’completing his religion’ doesn't mean he didn't also ’cut his aorta’. You are the one that has to prove that both are mutually exclusive, once more, you have done't so! Obviously, it's figurative 👀. Allah wouldn't cut his aorta literally as I have said before. And I also alluded to your figurative language 👀 or phrase. So this is a waste of time, we have agreed or I have agreed with you, that it's figurative 👀. Figuratively, ’Allah cut his aorta😁’! Even though you are desperately trying to bring in Jesus, it doesn't help your case .Jesus ,as at that time, fulfilled the prophecy and also bore the ’sins of the world’ which was placed upon him, so yeah, there was a separation 🤨. In the case of your prophet, there was none. He plainly fulfilled the prophecy...or ’conditional clause’.Present Medical facts do not destroy my stance, as lots of substances are known to cause physical damage that results later on in ’heavenalization’.Ergo, you have no excuse😂. Pain can prove many things, some people relate pain to pleasure; others as some form of suffering, others as righteousness —Yeah, it depends on the underlying factor. Which you are so desperate to dismiss😮💨. I stand by my earlier posit, your prophet's own was self inflicted 😁—and it fulfilled Divine prophecy or ’conditional clause’👀This ’honor’ rhetoric 🤕, I stand with my analogy of ’furiosa's boys’😁—“witness me“... [others] "witness🙌“. This in no way nullifies Allah's ’conditional clause’. You will have to do better🤨, if you want to convince us that he didn't fulfill divine ’clause’. You must do so without any doubt which your ’repetition’ hasn't helped😔. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 11:30pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
Gabrielshow24:You keep shouting aorta, aorta,as if saying it over and over will somehow change a lie into a truth. But let’s take a look at Qur’an 69:44–46, tell me you cannot understand it’s a conditional warning. If Muhammad (pbuh) had lied, Allah would have promptly seized him. But he didn’t lie, and Islam thrived. He conquered Arabia, fulfilled his mission, and Allah Himself proclaimed today I have perfected your religion” (Qur’an 5:3). If cutting his aorta makes him false, then what about Jesus crying out, “My God, why have You forsaken me?” Does that make him false too? How can you rever one yet he laments of being forsaken and is your saviour? Pain doesn’t equate to falsehood; every prophet faced suffering. Muhammad (pbuh) was poisoned by his enemies, just as Jesus was betrayed by Judas. Would you blame Jesus for being crucified? Then don’t blame Muhammad for being poisoned. The truth is clear. Muhammad (pbuh) triumphed, the Qur’an remains uncorrupted, and his mission ended in victory. That’s divine proof, not divine punishment. So, no matter how many times you shout aorta, it only reflects your own desperation, not the truth. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 11:36pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
Gabrielshow24:Think this through. If Allah really did ‘cut Muhammad pbuh’s aorta’ as a sign of falsehood (Qur’an 69:44-46), then it raises a big question about the statement in Qur’an 5:3, where Allah says, ‘Today I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you.’ How can Allah claim to ‘perfect the religion’ through Muhammad (pbuh) while simultaneously labeling him as false by ‘cutting his aorta’? That would imply a contradiction on Allah's part. Do you honestly think God would engage in such duplicitous behavior? |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by Gabrielshow24: 11:51pm On Aug 23, 2025 |
honesttalk21:I beg to differ 😂, you are the one denying it🤧— “He did lie and Allah promptly seized him ...“😂. Islam ’thriving’ is not hinged on whether he lied or not😮💨, that's the ’Crux’ of the matter. You are using this as some form of proof😅, which fails miserably! I can use your logic to assert that the followers of Isa are ’True’, since we will thrive over others😂; a position you find ludicrous 😁. To cut the long story short, ’longevity is not a sign of truthfulness ’! I leave you with this quote: ’no matter how far/long lies travel, truth will catch up with it’. People are aware, that ’lies’ can even prevail for a very long time, spanning generations👀, extending over 1400years👀 until the Truth catches up to it! As I quoted above, I repeat once more: ’Prophets don't come with swords’—This summarizes your ’conquest’ and the ’establishment’ of your religion. This in no way negates ’the conditional clause’ of Allah🧐. Jesus' ’lamentation’ is a fulfillment of the simple fact that he ’bore the sins of the world’, a period that caused his separation from God🤨. We ’revere’ him because he suffered for ’righteousness’ and he taught us so unlike your prophet which you are ’heavily’ defending, that suffered for his own falsehood!—They are not the same! Your repetition is not helping you. Jesus wanted to be crucified, he said so himself 😂, you have no point there! Unlike, your prophet that simple ’1+1’ should have instinctively told him, that it was a bad idea to eat the food of a ’vengeful woman’ Yeah... He is to be blamed😮💨, also he falsified things in the name of Allah thus the fulfillment of the ’infamous conditional clause’😂. I stand with Allah! |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by Gabrielshow24: 12:05am On Aug 24, 2025 |
honesttalk21:I appreciate your ’thesis’ but I am not inveigled by such. The two are not mutually exclusive, Allah categorically stated he will forgive his sins—he has sins 😮💨, one of which could have been falsehood 😔. He lied against Allah, Allah waited for him to complete his ’religion’ then he ’cut off his aorta’—This acted as a precursor to his later ’heavenalization’ but we have established that it's a ’figurative’ speech🙃 Also, You are ’completing’👀 this based on the assumption that it's indeed Allah that spoke to him😂. I haven't even dissected that area, just focusing on the rudimentary levels with you—solely reflecting your logic back at you😁. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 12:35am On Aug 24, 2025 |
Gabrielshow24:You are saying Muhammad pbuh lied against Allah’ and Allah let him complete Islam before cutting his aorta? If the God claim to worship is true, then you are accusing Him of knowingly letting so many follow a false religion for 23 years before acting? And if this Allah is false, then how do you explain the rise of Islam, the preservation of the Qur’an, and its impact on history? Either way, your logic collapses. If Allah is true, He wouldn’t allow deception on His own name; if Allah is false, then your entire aorta argument is irrelevant because a false god can’t cut anyone’s aorta. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 12:52am On Aug 24, 2025 |
Gabrielshow24:Oh really? I totally disagree. Your insistence on repeating the aorta clause as if it makes it true is puzzling. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lived for years after Khaybar, completed his mission, and witnessed the establishment of Islam hardly the hallmark of a false prophet. Maybe you’ve redefined what it means to be prompt. If Allah had taken him away, Islam wouldn’t have flourished for 1400 years; it would have crumbled. And about Jesus, please stop claiming he desired crucifixion. Your own Gospels contradict that, showing him pleading three times in Gethsemane to let this cup pass from him. He was in such agony that he sweated blood, and on the cross, he cried out, “Why have You forsaken me?” That doesn’t sound like someone who wanted to be crucified; it sounds like someone desperately seeking rescue. Islam honors him. Allah saved him, just as He saved Moses from Pharaoh and Abraham from the fire. Your beliefs seem to twist humiliation into a form of theology. So, let me ask you this: If Jesus truly wanted crucifixion, why did he plead with God to save him from it? And regarding the idea that prophets don’t come with swords, you might want to reconsider that when it comes to Moses, who literally fought Pharaoh, executed idolaters, and led wars by God’s command (Exodus 32, Numbers 31). If you’re going to dismiss Muhammad (pbuh) on those grounds, then you’ve inadvertently disqualified Moses as well. |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by TenQ(op): 2:19am On Aug 24, 2025 |
honesttalk21:Nairaland wouldn't allow me post.
|
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by TenQ(op): 2:20am On Aug 24, 2025 |
honesttalk21:Part TWO
|
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 7:37am On Aug 24, 2025 |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by TenQ(op): 8:41am On Aug 24, 2025 |
honesttalk21:Islam seems to have blocked your comprehension of simple English language. The two responses were posted in part 1 and 2. Except that you don't have any response other than your vain repetitions defending what is not defendable |
| Re: JimRohn Say That The Qur'an Is Perfectly Preserved But This Is Completely False by honesttalk21: 8:55am On Aug 24, 2025 |
TenQ:If you truly post, do so in legible manner. |
. On Judgment Day, the rapist’s good deeds are taken and given to the victim. If his good deeds run out, her sins are placed on him, and he is cast into Hell. That is accountability.
American Scientists Say That Biblical Eve Looked Like This • When the Qur'an is misinterpretated : Did Jesus Die On The Cross? • Who Deleted This Verse From The Perfectly Preserved Quran Of Muhammad? • 2 • 3 • 4