₦airaland Forum

Expanse2020:
What happened
Can't he shout am cover with the blood of Jesus to save him
Antiislam

He probably did but Jesus was too busy helping a random individual find his car key.

kingxsamz:
This is why it's a bad idea to leave anything in the hands of Jesus. That guy and his father in heaven cannot do anything right.
Nawa, Rip to the dead.

Yeah RIP to him. Valar Morghulis.

Image123:
i told you where to find it. You needed it, employ some diligence.

I asked you since it is what YOU brought up. I won't do your work for you.

Dtruthspeaker:
Writing a song does not mean that he is a Christian. R. Kelly also wrote songs that sound Godly.

Christians don't die or what? 🙄

Hello, @Lordreed and Westerhoffe. It appears both of you might be using the term, destiny , to mean two different things and hence the confusion .

From the way I see it, Lordreed is understanding the term, destiny, as a fate that's fixed and unchangeable , meaning fatalism. From this perspective, praying against it would appear contradictory .This is a logically correct position to take .

@Westerhoffe , your comments imply that you see destiny, not as cast in stone, a fixed fate, but more as future possibility or a path one is on. From this, a dream of death is only a warning of a future possibility, and a prayer or other religious rituals is a means to seek intervention or guidance to change that path. This position is also a coherent and common belief most people have, including me.

The contradiction @Lordreed sees disappears if we use your definition. So the confusion is not one of logic,but the definition of the term, destiny. You both see it differently. that's all

Having said that, @ Westerhoffe, I'm curious about how you take the dreams . For instance, if a dream is a warning of future possibility like death, how does one determine which dreams are prophetic warnings and which are just normal anxiety dreams triggered by the brain?

If a prayer is offered and the event is avoided, does that mean the destiny was changed or that the dream was a warning about an outcome that was never the true destiny to begin with?

An analogy might make it more clearer. If a student dreams of failing an exam, would you say prayer alone prevent the failure,or does prayer provides the inspiration to pick up his textbooks and study?. How does it really work in your view? . I would like to know.

@Lordreed, given the distinction that I already highlighted here about how I think you both see it differently, does Westerhoffe 's position still appear contradictory ,or does it just represent a different set of beliefs about how the world works that you understand but reject or disagree with?

triplechoice:
Hello, @Lordreed and Westerhoffe. It appears both of you might be using the term, destiny , to mean two different things and hence the confusion .

From the way I see it, Lordreed is understanding the term, destiny, as a fate that's fixed and unchangeable , meaning fatalism. From this perspective, praying against it would appear contradictory .This is a logically correct position to take .

@Westerhoffe , your comments imply that you see destiny, not as cast in stone, a fixed fate, but more as future possibility or a path one is on. From this, a dream of death is only a warning of a future possibility, and a prayer or other religious rituals is a means to seek intervention or guidance to change that path. This position is also a coherent and common belief most people have, including me.

The contradiction @Lordreed sees disappears if we use your definition. So the confusion is not one of logic,but the definition of the term, destiny. You both see it differently. that's all

Having said that, @ Westerhoffe, I'm curious about how you take the dreams . For instance, if a dream is a warning of future possibility like death, how does one determine which dreams are prophetic warnings and which are just normal anxiety dreams triggered by the brain?

If a prayer is offered and the event is avoided, does that mean the destiny was changed or that the dream was a warning about an outcome that was never the true destiny to begin with?

An analogy might make it more clearer. If a student dreams of failing an exam, would you say prayer alone prevent the failure,or does prayer provides the inspiration to pick up his textbooks and study?. How does it really work in your view? . I would like to know.

@Lordreed, given the distinction that I already highlighted here about how I think you both see it differently, does Westerhoffe 's position still appear contradictory ,or does it just represent a different set of beliefs about how the world works that you understand but reject or disagree with?

Thank you for offering clarity once again.

If indeed Westerhoffe's position is that destiny is not as cast in stone, a fixed fate, but more as future possibility or a path one is on then no there wouldn't be a contradiction to pray against death.

LordReed:
Thank you for offering clarity once again.

If indeed Westerhoffe's position is that destiny is not as cast in stone, a fixed fate, but more as future possibility or a path one is on then no there wouldn't be a contradiction to pray against death.

Except that we all should know that that definition is a false one. Predestination has a clear meaning in spiritual and theological senses and even in philosophy.

I don't think what triplechoice has tried to negotiate works because the definition offered for Westerhoffe has nothing whatsoever to do with predestination. It only has to do with the entire remit of potentially inherent in all our existence. By that definition anyone could have any destiny whatsoever.

It is false to the extent that it refers not to destiny but all possibilities.

Save where something is already happening. E.g: You have a terminal illness. Or you are a hunchback pygmy who plans to win Mr. Universe. Or a toad planning to be the ruler of the galaxy.

LordReed:
I asked you since it is what YOU brought up. I won't do your work for you.

My work? To spoon-feed you? LoLz

LordReed:
Thank you for offering clarity once again.

If indeed Westerhoffe's position is that destiny is not as cast in stone, a fixed fate, but more as future possibility or a path one is on then no there wouldn't be a contradiction to pray against death.

LOLZ, but this is what we've been saying all day, patethick. You should be paying me for my responses.

That DeepS guy needs to rein in his emotions apparently. i am not the cause of his thrubles.

Facepalm reed.

Image123:
My work? To spoon-feed you? LoLz

LoLz. There's that narcissism once again.

Image123:
LOLZ, but this is what we've been saying all day, patethick. You should be paying me for my responses.

That DeepS guy needs to rein in his emotions apparently. i am not the cause of his thrubles.

I doubt you can understand the difference between the words predestination (destiny) and possibility (or potentiality).
Thats your issue here.

DeepSight:
I doubt you can understand the difference between the words predestination (destiny) and possibility (or potentiality).
Thats your issue here.

Why should i? The words no dey my Bible na, na only Bible i sabi.

LordReed:
LoLz. There's that narcissism once again.

Is it a sin? Where is it in the Bible?

Image123:
Why should i? The words no dey my Bible na, na only Bible i sabi.

So you do not even know that they are? Na wah.

Romans 8:30

New International Version
"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

And are you also going to say the word "possible" is not in the bible either?

Matt. 19:26 says, 'But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, with men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible'

I would think you were being sarcastic except I am not sure about you.

DeepSight:
So you do not even know that they are? Na wah.

Romans 8:30

New International Version
"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

And are you also going to say the word "possible" is not in the bible either?

Matt. 19:26 says, 'But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, with men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible'

I would think you were being sarcastic except I am not sure about you.

The wordS predestination, destiny, possibility and potentiality. The wordS. Forget about me, focus on God.

Image123:
The wordS predestination, destiny, possibility and potentiality. The wordS. Forget about me, focus on God.

If you cannot see those words in what I posted, forget it, because thats the level i expect from you.

DeepSight:
If you cannot see those words in what I posted, forget it, because thats the level i expect from you.

Exactly.

Image123:
Exactly.

You know, there is a debate about whether the unenlightened should be allowed to vote. There was also a debate about whether the non educated in theology should access scripture.

I am reminded of both debates.

kingxsamz:
Christians don't die or what? 🙄

Ah! Their death is super different that when you see it, for those who are not Christians they start regretting why they are not Christians. And for those who are Christians they start wishing and looking forward to their own death

DeepSight:
Except that we all should know that that definition is a false one. Predestination has a clear meaning in spiritual and theological senses and even in philosophy.

I don't think what triplechoice has tried to negotiate works because the definition offered for Westerhoffe has nothing whatsoever to do with predestination. It only has to do with the entire remit of potentially inherent in all our existence. By that definition anyone could have any destiny whatsoever.

It is false to the extent that it refers not to destiny but all possibilities.

Save where something is already happening. E.g: You have a terminal illness. Or you are a hunchback pygmy who plans to win Mr. Universe. Or a toad planning to be the ruler of the galaxy.

Thank you @ DeepSight for coming in at this point and bringing up this important point. Yes , you're absolutely correct that in formal theology and philosophy, predestination has a very specific and precise meaning referring to a fixed divine plan .

My previous intervention was focused less on formal doctrine and more on observing how people actually employ language in everyday conversations. It's a well-known linguistic principle that the meaning of a word isn't a fixed law from a dictionary entry, but often determined by the context in which it's used and the understanding within a particular group

For instance, the term, ", theory"has a very different meaning in a scientific context, the theory of gravity, for example, than in public discussion, " I have a theory about what I believed happened . Both usage are valid within their respective contexts"

The word, predistination or destiny is a perfect example of this. The meaning can range from the strict theological sense you mentioned to a more colloquial sense of a default outcome, future possibility.

Based on Westerhoffe comments about praying against a dream of death, it seemed he was using it in the,more in the other sense than the one you just brought in.. My point was that if Lordreed interprets the word strictly like you have done, and Westerhoffe continues to use it the way he has been using it ,they will continue to talk past each other.

So, clarifying that usage was timely in resolving their specific misunderstanding.

In any case, your point which is well taken has raised the deeper theological question for Westerhoffe and any other Christians following the thread.

So, to Westerhoffe and others of similar faith, when you pray against a destiny revealed to you in a dream, what's your theological understanding of how the prayer you prayed functions in relation to the will of God?

Is it to change a predetermined plan? or is it as some theological traditions accept, a means of participating in the unfolding of a plan that already includes your petition to God?

I'm sincerely interested in knowing which perspective aligns with the beliefs of the Christians here .

And for Oga DeepSight, what's the correct definition for predestination and how does it work?

Thank you

triplechoice:
Thank you @ DeepSight for coming in at this point and bringing up this important point. Yes , you're absolutely correct that in formal theology and philosophy, predistination has a very specific and precise meaning referring to a fixed divine plan .

My previous intervention was focused less on formal doctrine and more on observing how people actually employ language in everyday conversations. It's a well-known linguistic principle that the meaning of a word isn't a fixed law from a dictionary entry, but often determined by the context in which it's used and the understanding within a particular group

For instance, the term, ", theory"has a very different meaning in a scientific context, the theory of gravity, for example, than in public discussion, " I have a theory about what I believed happened . Both usage are valid within their respective contexts"

The word, predistination or destiny is a perfect example of this. The meaning can range from the strict theological sense you mentioned to a more colloquial sense of a default outcome, future possibility.

Based on Westerhoffe comments about praying against a dream of death, it seemed he was using it in the,more in the other sense than the one you just brought in.. My point was that if Lordreed interprets the word strictly like you have done, and Westerhoffe continues to use it the way he has been using it ,they will continue to talk past each other.

So, clarifying that usage was timely in resolving their specific misunderstanding.

In any case, your point which is well taken has raised the deeper theological question for Westerhoffe and any other Christians following the thread.

So, to Westerhoffe and others of similar faith, when you pray against a destiny revealed to you in a dream, what's your theological understanding of how the prayer you prayed functions in relation to the will of God?

Is it to change a predetermined plan? or is it as some theological traditions accept, a means of participating in the unfolding of a plan that already includes your petition to God?

I'm sincerely interested in knowing which perspective aligns with the beliefs of the Christians here .

And for Oga DeepSight, what's the correct definition for predistination and how does it work?

Thank you

Thank you respected old friend.

I dont know if predestination exists or not, but there are very strong arguments to presuppose that we are bound by a chain of cause and effect from the dawn of time which leads directly from one event to the other. This argument is against the doctrine of freewill which is extremely debatable. This is strictly philosophical, and nothing to do with religion.

But if one brings the imagery of the will of God into it, and prayer against that will, one should wonder what happened to the prayer of Jesus in Gethsemane - "If possible, let this cup pass over my head, nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."

It strongly suggests that NOTHING can change the will of God within a theological sense.

While I understand your intervention on the different uses of the word being used, I strongly suspect that this destiny Westerhoffe was referring to was still in a religious theological context (remember he associated it with prayer). In the way you helped him interpret it, it would simply mean all available possibilities.

Dtruthspeaker:
Ah! Their death is super different that when you see it, for those who are not Christians they start regretting why they are not Christians. And for those who are Christians they start wishing and looking forward to their own death

So all Christians eagerly await death? Why dont they then celebrate the death of their children and why do they even pray against death? Remember even Jesus prayed against his oh.

Image123:
Is it a sin? Where is it in the Bible?

Its in the DSM 5 but I know you already said you choose faith over reason.

DeepSight:
Except that we all should know that that definition is a false one. Predestination has a clear meaning in spiritual and theological senses and even in philosophy.

I don't think what triplechoice has tried to negotiate works because the definition offered for Westerhoffe has nothing whatsoever to do with predestination. It only has to do with the entire remit of potentially inherent in all our existence. By that definition anyone could have any destiny whatsoever.

It is false to the extent that it refers not to destiny but all possibilities.

Save where something is already happening. E.g: You have a terminal illness. Or you are a hunchback pygmy who plans to win Mr. Universe. Or a toad planning to be the ruler of the galaxy.

People do use destiny colloquially like in the 2nd definition triplechoice laid out. I dunno which definition Westerhoffe is using though. He should enlighten us.

Image123:
Is it a sin? Where is it in the Bible?

My good heavens. How can a Christian know sooooooooooooooooooooooooo little about the bible?
Narcissism is not a sin in the bible?

What is the sin of pride?

Sad, but you will probably say narcissism is not pride! Good heavens. One has to wonder at times the background of strangers on an anonymous board.

Probably you dont know the story of Narcissus and how that word arose.

Anyway, go and learn -

https://www.crossway.org/articles/10-key-bible-verses-on-pride/?srsltid=AfmBOortksr6QYtPZ9S7iMw84Ioe5uEoiseTCZGZ6MWtNS6ZCXNIrJD3

LordReed:
People do use destiny colloquially like in the 2nd definition triplechoice laid out. I dunno which definition Westerhoffe is using though. He should enlighten us.

Its very problematic even colloquially because in that manner my destiny could be to be the Pope or even the next Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.
In a discussion like this, they should just find another word.

"Hope" would be a great one.

LordReed:
People do use destiny colloquially like in the 2nd definition triplechoice laid out. I dunno which definition Westerhoffe is using though. He should enlighten us.

Also remember the context of praying against or for destiny. Thats a religious context. But then even if not, what can change the so called destiny? Prayer? It didnt even for Jesus in the hour of his passion.

That word destiny strongly suggests something specific placed in the future and religious people mean that it was placed there by God. If they pray against it, they suggest that the will of their God can be defeated or changed.

Its contradictory and I wholly stand with your initial take.

Its better for the chap to say "May heaven help my hope."

kingxsamz:
He probably did but Jesus was too busy helping a random individual find his car key.