₦airaland Forum

budaatum:
No. Deep, time did not exist before humans existed.

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This is enough for me to end this conversation. This is a very obviously ridiculous statement. I don't think I even have to prove that it is. I just wanted you to say it so it's there for posterity and your possible future reflection.

Do not insult me! I always think deeply.

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This is obviously false.

As to taking a video of time moving, oh please. Certainly you can take a picture or a video of a clock.

Just try and take a picture or video of time moving. Surely you should be able to see time moving and how it moves, since it was created by humans according to you.

Surely it may also have legs or wings which enable its movement.

And surely it must be visible and physical.

Unfortunately since you say that time did not exist before humans, it is impossible to reason with you further.

I leave it to your reflection and if we are alive, bring it up in say five or ten years.

DeepSight:
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I refer to infinite and stagnant time .....

Infinite describes something that is without limits, endless, or immeasurably large.

Stagnant describes something as not flowing, moving, or developing.

Does the above not describe exact opposites of each other, or do you have different meanings for them please?

budaatum:
Infinite describes something that is without limits, endless, or immeasurably large.

Stagnant describes something as not flowing, moving, or developing.

Does the above not describe exact opposites of each other, or do you have different meanings for them please?

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It's simple enough to describe but since you say time didn't exist before humans I don't think there is any point wasting time on this conversation.

DeepSight:
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As to taking a video of time moving, oh please. Certainly you can take a picture or a video of a clock.

Of course I can take a picture of a clock at a particular time, say, 8:30pm. And I can also take a 10 minute video of a clock showing time passing or "moving", as you want to call it, from say, 8:30pm to 8:40pm.

What I can't do is take a video of time at 8:30pm, especially if I use a clock with seconds. And I can't take one single picture of time "moving" from 8:30pm to 8:40pm.

But would the picture and the video represent the same thing to you Deep?

budaatum:
Of course I can take a picture of a clock at a particular time, say, 8:30pm. And I can also take a 10 minute video of a clock showing time passing or "moving", as you want to call it, from say, 8:30pm to 8:40pm.

What I can't do is take a video of time at 8:30pm, especially if I use a clock with seconds. And I can't take one single picture of time "moving" from 8:30pm to 8:40pm.

But would the picture and the video represent the same thing to you Deep?

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I am afraid, as I have said, I dont think its a good use of time to continue this conversation with you.

You may also say that Space was created by humans and did not exist before humans.

The premises are way too absurd to be discussed.

It would indeed, be a waste of both time and space.

DeepSight:
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It's simple enough to describe but since you say time didn't exist before humans I don't think there is any point wasting time on this conversation.

Funny. Do you mean you don't want to waste one instant of the exact time now, or is it a period of time like a few minutes or so that you do not want to waste?

One is an instance of the time at any moment in time like 8pm, which is a human invention, while the other is a period of time as measured in units created by humans like 10 minutes. And both are recent human inventions to denote actual moments and the passing of time.

You should perhaps look up time on wiki or somewhere to see that it is more complex than you are suggesting.

budaatum:
Funny. Do you mean you don't want to waste one instant of the exact time now, or is it a period of time like a few minutes or so that you do not want to waste?

One is an instance of the time at any moment in time like 8pm, which is a human invention, while the other is a period of time as measured in units created by humans like 10 minutes. And both are recent human inventions to denote actual moments and the passing of time.

You should perhaps look up time on wiki or somewhere to see that it is more complex than you are suggesting.

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You know, just for the record and only for he record, did humans also create space?

budaatum:
FxMasterz, if you promote a candidate, you are promoting a candidate, but if you [i]post manifestoes of all candidates, as opposed to promoting just one candidate, then I would personally consider my self føolish to think you are promoting any one candidate.

In fact, logic would tell me you are 'promoting' all candidates if anything, and I wouldn't then use the word "promote" to describe what you would have done. I definitely wouldn't claim you are a member of all the parties of all the candidates you supposedly promote. Would you?

But in this case, you have been confirmed to have promoted the manifestos of only one candidate while paying lip services to the others as a matter of disguise.

DeepSight:
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I am afraid, as I have said, I dont think its a good use of time to continue this conversation with you.

You may also say that Space was created by humans and did not exist before humans.

The premises are way too absurd to be discussed.

It would indeed, be a waste of both time and space.

Deep, when you respond, you are indeed spending, or as you say, wasting, your very own time and space, both of which are more complex than you are suggesting.

But I'll stick with time for now, thank you. We can do space at a later time, if you are willing.

budaatum:
Deep, when you respond, you are indeed spending, or as you say, wasting, your very own time and space, both of which are more complex than you are suggesting.

But I'll stick with time for now, thank you. We can do space at a later time, if you are willing.

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No way!

You have obviously seen the absurdity of what you are saying. Time was created by humans? What a joke.
Just answer if space was also created by humans and let me go to sleep.

Its a simple question, isnt it?

FxMasterz:
But in this case, you have been confirmed to have promoted the manifestos of only one candidate while paying lip services to the others as a matter of disguise.

Not true, FxMasterz. You have not confirmed that buda only promoted the books of AMORC!

You would have seen other posts about other organisations and books that buda has promoted if you had bothered to follow the links that triple has provided so you may confirm instead of just believing what you've been told to!

Below is a link to a post by buda about freemasons
https://www.nairaland.com/85581/morals-dogma#1580271

Here are threads created by buda about the Bible.
https://www.nairaland.com/5822532/holy-bible-english-standard-version

https://www.nairaland.com/4437570/gospel-according-luke

And here is buda promoting Evolution!
https://www.nairaland.com/5238668/evolution-101

DeepSight:
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To add to this, the Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis, is not anything anyone should be wary of. It is one of the orders for the search for deep esoteric knowledge. By the nature of such societies, much is kept hidden but revealed as one advances. I have not just had a brush with it, but even considered being initiated. I frankly see little wrong with it save some tendencies which suggest the superiority and inferiority of races - which everyone knows I am allergic to. When I was doing my NYSC, I was introduced to it by a gentleman who was a client of the firm I was attached to. There is much that is enlightened about it. Much.

Therefore I also see not particular reason to hang Budatuum even if he is an open AMORC person. I myself have also associated with Eckankar, which has some levels of similarity.

What I can see from the issues raised by Triplechoice is simple. He suspects Buda of being duplicitous and dishonest. That may well be true, but I have no idea and it is not my concern. Generally I consider the entire subject unimportant and somewhat petty.

Buda, like many of us, may just be a seeker for truth and be as confused as every honest seeker of truth is.

I agree there is nothing to fear in these things. It is just that in my neck of the woods if I must participate in family I cannot be associated with such things, talk about giving a dog a bad name in order to hang it. It is bad enough that I am openly atheist, add AMORC and it is all over. LoLz.

For those who are getting ideas, I prize family above almost everything else.

budaatum:
This is nonsense, my Lord. Malice intended!

Be objective and completely put aside your bias and love please!

Did buda promote AMORC to you?

You maliciously did not! Bad buda! LoLz.

LordReed:
I agree there is nothing to fear in these things. It is just that in my neck of the woods if I must participate in family I cannot be associated with such things, talk about giving a dog a bad name in order to hang it. It is bad enough that I am openly atheist, add AMORC and it is all over. LoLz.

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Completely over.
You have no idea how many people consider me either mad, possessed or demonic for the simple fact that I do not accept religion.

For those who are getting ideas, I prize family above almost everything else.

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Family is the true priority everyone should have.

DeepSight:
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No way!

You have obviously seen the absurdity of what you are saying. Time was created by humans? What a joke.
Just answer if space was also created by humans and let me go to sleep.

Its a simple question, isnt it?

Space has not been presented in any particular context, Deep. And definitely not in the context by which time was brought into the discourse of your uncaused cause.

Time, as in 10pm, is created by humans, just as space as a confined area of say 10 acres, is created by humans.

Space, as in outer space, is of a different nature to the above, and exists regardless of humans, just as a span of time of a period of 13 billion years or even ten minutes is not created by humans, despite the fact that humans created the concepts to describe both.

This is the distinction you fail to note.

budaatum:
Space has not been presented in any particular context, Deep. And definitely not in the context by which time was brought into the discourse of your uncaused cause.

Time, as in 10pm, is created by humans, just as space as a confined area of say 10 acres, is created by humans.

Space, as in outer space, is of a different nature to the above, and exists regardless of humans, just as a span of time of a period of 13 billion years or even ten minutes is not created by humans, despite the fact that humans created the concepts to describe both.

This is the distinction you fail to note.

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You are the one that defined time as a measurement of a period and insisted that time was created by humans.
Space, by the same premise will be a measurement of distance, and surely created by humans.

Do you imagine that Dinosuars had no concept of time, passing periods, yesterday, today, tomorrow etc?

Do you imagine that every creature that ever existed before humans had no concept of time?

It's absurd in the extreme.

There is no way any creature could exist if time did not already exist and its madness to say only one particular creature created time.

LordReed:
I agree there is nothing to fear in these things. It is just that in my neck of the woods if I must participate in family I cannot be associated with such things, talk about giving a dog a bad name in order to hang it. It is bad enough that I am openly atheist, add AMORC and it is all over. LoLz.

For those who are getting ideas, I prize family above almost everything else.

And this, giving buda a bad name in order to hang buda, is precisely what triplechoice has attempted to do here thinking buda or anyone else except FxMasterz who can't check evidence for himself, gives a flying f what name triple decides to give to buda.

Comical is what I think it is, that those who hardly know me would think I care what they think of me, as I'm not ashamed nor need to hide the fact that I am an atheist from my own close family, which I've always been, and never been a member of any esoteric organisation.

Just the thought of paying subs is enough to deter me if nothing else apart from I can't even finish reading their very interesting free stuff.

budaatum:
s.

Space, as in outer space, is of a different nature to the above, and exists regardless of humans

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Again, confusion. Would you imagine that space within the EARTH was created by humans.

just as a span of time of a period of 13 billion years or even ten minutes is not created by humans, despite the fact that humans created the concepts to describe both.

This is the distinction you fail to note.

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In this statement alone, of course you concede that humans could never be the creators of time.

It is sheer madness to say so, and you have contradicted yourself.

You dont have a clue what you are saying.

DeepSight:
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You are the one that defined time as a measurement of a period and insisted that time was created by humans.

Yes I did. The confusion of not clarifying was clear from the onset, and was why I made the distinction.

DeepSight:
Space, by the same premise will be a measurement of distance, and surely created by humans.

And you are correct, except a lot of to and fro had occured prior to its presentation, in which the distinction had been fleshed out. And so as not to conflate, was made before addressing your space.

DeepSight:
Do you imagine that Dinosuars had no concept of time, passing periods, yesterday, today, tomorrow etc?

I wouldn't have thought dinosaurs had any concept of time whatsoever to be honest, nor of space in fact, though I'd need to hedge on the latter.

I mean, i can't imagine dinosaurs thinking it was 11pm or that it was 11 hours since their last meal, but I find it probable that they might have needed to have a concept of space though, since it would have been unlikely for them to chase prey that was a mile away.

DeepSight:
Do you imagine that every creature that ever existed before humans had no concept of time?

I'd have imagined animals, to be more specific than "creature", would not have had a concept of time.

An elephant wouldn't set dinner for 7pm or know that it was a particular month of the year even, nor do I think it knew it would need to carry its pup in its belly for a specific amount of time before birthing.

DeepSight:
There is no way any creature could exist if time did not already exist and its madness to say only one particular creature created time.

A thing existing, and a "creature having a concept of time", are not the same thing, I don't think. And yes, one cannot record a video of 8pm.

Note how many times I myself have mentioned 13 billion years ago, and that humans have existed only a fraction of that time. Surely you are not suggesting I've implied humans created 13 billion years. Or are you?

Humans did however split the years into months and use human numbers to denote them, though I can see how you might argue that it was the uncaused causer who created the cycle humans measure theconcepts we denote them with.

LordReed:
You maliciously did not! Bad buda! LoLz.

Then I must have lovingly and kindly promoted it to you my Lord, if not maliciously.

Please let triplechoice know that his point has been proven to you, thank you.

budaatum:
Yes I did. The confusion of not clarifying was clear from the onset, and was why I made the distinction.


And you are correct, except a lot of to and fro had occured prior to its presentation, in which the distinction had been fleshed out. And so as not to conflate, was made before addressing your space.


I wouldn't have thought dinosaurs had any concept of time whatsoever to be honest, nor of space in fact, though I'd need to hedge on the latter.

I mean, i can't imagine dinosaurs thinking it was 11pm or that it was 11 hours since their last meal, but I find it probable that they might have needed to have a concept of space though, since it would have been unlikely for them to chase prey that was a mile away.


I'd have imagined animals, to be more specific than "creature", would not have had a concept of time.

An elephant wouldn't set dinner for 7pm or know that it was a particular month of the year even, nor do I think it knew it would need to carry its pup in its belly for a specific amount of time before birthing.


A thing existing, and a "creature having a concept of time", are not the same thing, I don't think. And yes, one cannot record a video of 8pm.

Note how many times I myself have mentioned 13 billion years ago, and that humans have existed only a fraction of that time. Surely you are not suggesting I've implied humans created 13 billion years. Or are you?

Humans did however split the years into months and use human numbers to denote them, though I can see how you might argue that it was the uncaused causer who created the cycle humans measure theconcepts we denote them with.

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The mere fact that you keep saying 7pm and 8pm shows you haven't even started.

And you said "even the span of ten minutes was not created by humans."

You just keep contradicting yourself.

I really mean no insult when I say you have no clue of the meaning of even the elementary words you are using.

DeepSight:
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Again, confusion. Would you imagine that space within the EARTH was created by humans.

No, not at all. Least not within the entire earth. For that would be like claiming humans created the earth itself.

DeepSight:
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In this statement alone, of course you concede that humans could never be the creators of time.

Depending what time you mean please! Humans after all did create the fact its currently 11:23pm.

DeepSight:
It is sheer madness to say so, and you have contradicted yourself.

I so wish you'd resist the name calling.

DeepSight:
You dont have a clue what you are saying.

Okay deep.

budaatum:
Note how many times I myself have mentioned 13 billion years ago, and that humans have existed only a fraction of that time. Surely you are not suggesting I've implied humans created 13 billion years. Or are you?

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Certainly that is exactly what you have said, not I. And of course that's madness. Because it is self contradictory.

1. You said time did not exist before humans.

2. So how did 13 billion years exist before humans?

3. You even said humans created time.

Look, let me give you the proper answer.

Every creature has its ways of measuring things, period. This does not mean that any creature created time.

Look, even bees have a bee dance which they use to describe the way to a place they found food, and how far away it is, and how long it would take to get there.

This means even bees have a concept of time and a way of measuring time and space.

And they existed before humans.

It's just madness to say humans created time and that time didn't exist before humans did.

Both of which you have said and both of which are so insane, I wonder why I am having to explain it to anyone.

DeepSight:
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You just keep contradicting yourself.

Difficult concepts explained by words we do not first define can come across that way, and is why I said the following at the onset Deep.

budaatum:
I might have not put mine across in a way that could be understood as intended. Its after all not the case that we can always put our points across as accurately as we intend they be received, as this thread has shown.

budaatum:
Difficult concepts explained by words we do not first define can come across that way, and is why I said the following at the onset Deep.

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Look, I will rest my argument on bees.

Prove that they dont have a concept of time and space.

And that they didnt exist before humans.

End of.

DeepSight:
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Certainly that is exactly what you have said, not I. And of course that's madness. Because it is self contradictory.

1. You said time did not exist before humans.

2. So how did 13 billion years exist before humans?

3. You even said humans created time.

Time, as in how we measure it, Deep, did not exist before humans.

There were no clocks before humans, and I don't think it was ever 11pm before humans invented the time of 11pm as a concept.

But forgive me for presuming you got the bit where I also said humans did not exist 13 billions years ago when the earth is assumed to have begun.

After all. I did say that too, or did I not?

DeepSight:
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Look, I will rest my argument on bees.

Prove that they dont have a concept of time and space.

And that they didnt exist before humans.

End of.

Sorry, but I can't prove whether bees have a concept of time or not, just as you can't prove the existence of an uncaused causer.

What I can say is, time likely wasn't a thing bees were particularly aware of apart from sun up and sun down, perhaps.

As for bees existing before humans, I do feel something that evolved into bees likely existed before humans.

budaatum:
Sorry, but I can't prove whether bees have a concept of time or not, just as you can't prove the existence of an uncaused causer.

What I can say is, time likely wasn't a thing bees were particularly aware of apart from sun up and sun down, perhaps.

As for bees existing before humans, I do feel something that evolved into bees likely existed before humans.

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https://askabiologist.asu.edu/games-sims/bee-dance-game/introduction.html

Goodnight.

budaatum:
So. "promoted Amorc materials", makes you believe buda "belongs to the cult".

This must be how some peoples' minds must work I guess, as Triple's too works, but forgive me for not bothering to clear the air about your belief, since its your belief, which you are very free and entitled to believe if you wish.

Your attempt to reduce this to a simple "promotion" equals " membership is another deliberate evasion, Buda'. The evidence which you continue to ignore,is a pattern of behaviour that is irreconcilable with with a genuine atheist stance.

Moreover, you didn't just "share materials". You made a post in a thread you created that made use of the first person personal pronoun, "we", not third person, They ", and advertised the benefits of joining. At the end of the post you provided links for whom to contact in Nigeria and their Introductory materials for download This is advocacy,not neutral sharing . I have explained this over and over again but you continue to deflect away from it.

Furthermore, you also have a history of vehemently defending Amorc's doctrines from criticism,, an action that makes no sense for an atheist,who should, by definition, reject its unscientific and spiritual claims

A consistent atheist worldview rejects not just a deity, but the entire supernatural framework, including the " mental alchemy" , "cosmic consciousness" and invisible brotherhood that Amorc teaches. Your selective " God-only", atheism is an obvious loophole to hide this contradictions.

Instead of addressing the substantial evidence, you continue to resort to condescension and ad hominem attacks. This is tactic of someone who has been defeated on the facts and is now clutching at straws.

Finally,your inability to engage with the actual argument is more revealing than any "evidence" you demand from others

No matter what you say,you are not an atheist. Full stop. Just be yourself. That's all.

FxMasterz:
Can you answer my question?

There are many presidential candidates in Nigeria. If I promote Tinubu or anything that has to do with him, whom do you think I believe in among the available candidates?

@FxMasterz, your analogy is perfect. If you consistently promote Tinubu's manifesto, defend his policies from critics, and share links for people to join his campaign, no rational person would believe you are neutral.

Buda is doing the equivalent for Amorc on Nairaland. He promoted their materials, defended their core doctrinal text which contains their spiritual beliefs, and provided recruitment links. The logical conclusion is the same in both cases. He is an advocate, not a neutral observer

His continued evasion of this simple, logical
point only proves he has no honest answer to give you.

He wants to waste your time.

@triplechoice,

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it’s probably a duck.

https://www.nairaland.com/8566179/appeal-investigate-hidden-evidence-harassment#137550260

budaatum:
Then I must have lovingly and kindly promoted it to you my Lord, if not maliciously.

Please let triplechoice know that his point has been proven to you, thank you.

You did no such thing and if you did I would have told you off.