₦airaland Forum

SIRTee15:
My friend, the torah is the first five books of old testament. That's what called the torah. it's been like that since the time of Ezra- 500 BCE.
It could be extended to cover the whole of the old testament based on jewish tradition.
Gabriel didn't speak to Moses in the torah.
So where did Waraqah get the idea that Moses spoke to Gabriel?

The original Torah has been burnt and lost. The first five books of the old testament you have today are simply copies of copies of copies to infinity!

No one can truly say Moses even wrote everything! Most of it was just traditionally attributed to Moses.

So what Waraqah had wasn't your old testament nor your Bible. And he was also knowledgeable than your so called church fathers who canonised the new testament for you today!

AntiChristian:
The original Torah has been burnt and lost. The first five books of the old testament you have today are simply copies of copies of copies to infinity!

No one can truly say Moses even wrote everything! Most of it was just traditionally attributed to Moses.

So what Waraqah had wasn't your old testament nor your Bible. And he was also knowledgeable than your so called church fathers who canonised the new testament for you today!

So where did WARAQAH get his own original Torah if the original Torah was already 'burnt and lost' by the time of Ezra.

If the Torah was already lost as at 500 BCE, where did WARAQAH find the original Torah 1000 yrs later (570 AD).

It's like u guys dont think. because if u do, u will realise Islamic ideology and teaching is not compatible with historical reality.

Waraqa ibn Nawfal r.a never claimed to have a lost original Torah. As a well-educated Arab Christian, he delved into the Hebrew and Syriac scriptures that were widely available during his time; texts that the Qur’an (3:93, 5:43–47) acknowledges as still being present among Jews and Christians. When he heard the Prophet Muhammad pbuh recount his first revelation, Waraqa instantly recognized the same divine pattern that appeared in earlier prophecies, remarking, this is the Namus that came to Moses. His insight didn’t just affirm a textual connection; it highlighted the ongoing nature of divine revelation the same truth resonating through every true messenger of God.

Namus from Greek Nomos, Law was a common Syriac and Arabic Christian term for the divine law and, by extension, the bearer of the law. Not specifically using the name Gabriel, but the function; the angel of revelation.

SIRTee15:
So where did WARAQAH get his own original Torah if the original Torah was already 'burnt and lost' by the time of Ezra.

If the Torah was already lost as at 500 BCE, where did WARAQAH find the original Torah 1000 yrs later (570 AD).

It's like u guys dont think. because if u do, u will realise Islamic ideology and teaching is not compatible with historical reality.

Jesus preached and people wrote it down. Some transmitted it orally! The Qur'an wasn't transmitted by being written down but mainly by memorization!

Waraqah didn't have the book of Genesis, Numbers, Leviticus Deuteronomy and Exodus as Torah! And the Books of Paul were not the Injeel Jesus preached! That's certain!

AntiChristian:
Jesus preached and people wrote it down. Some transmitted it orally! The Qur'an wasn't transmitted by being written down but mainly by memorization!

Waraqah didn't have the book of Genesis, Numbers, Leviticus Deuteronomy and Exodus as Torah! And the Books of Paul were not the Injeel Jesus preached! That's certain!

U are not making sense. U are seriously deficient in knowledge of bible historicity. It's a waste of time talking to u.
Maybe when I need to discuss the Quran, I will tag u.
Bye

AntiChristian:
Jesus preached and people wrote it down. Some transmitted it orally! The Qur'an wasn't transmitted by being written down but mainly by memorization!

Waraqah didn't have the book of Genesis, Numbers, Leviticus Deuteronomy and Exodus as Torah! And the Books of Paul were not the Injeel Jesus preached! That's certain!

The Quran ..Written by Men to Discredit the Holy Book of The Bible which have existed Many Years before the Quran .

Angel Gabriel never Intimidated anyone he Visits ...Only Demons does

Akir2025:
The Quran ..Written by Men to Discredit the Holy Book of The Bible which have existed Many Years before the Quran .

Angel Gabriel never Intimidated anyone he Visits ...Only Demons does

Echo Akir2025 substantiate your outbursts or at least try to make effort.

The Qur’an doesn’t dismiss the Bible; instead, it acknowledges the Torah and the Gospel as earlier messages from God (Qur’an 3:3, 5:46). This idea of later revelations correcting communities is actually a theme found in the Bible itself. Throughout the Bible, fear often accompanies encounters with angels. For instance, Daniel was so overwhelmed by Gabriel that he collapsed and lost his strength (Daniel 8:17–18; 10:7–9). Zechariah was troubled and fear fell upon him when he saw Gabriel (Luke 1:11–13), and Mary was greatly troubled (Luke 1:29). Gideon was terrified after meeting the angel of the LORD (Judges 6:22–23), and even John fell down in fear before an angel (Revelation 22:8–9). So, fear is actually a sign of divine awe in the Bible, not a sign of demonic intimidation. And the Gabriel mentioned in the Qur’an is the same messenger we recognize from the Bible.

honesttalk21:
Echo Akir2025 substantiate your outbursts or at least try to make effort.

The Qur’an doesn’t dismiss the Bible; instead, it acknowledges the Torah and the Gospel as earlier messages from God (Qur’an 3:3, 5:46). This idea of later revelations correcting communities is actually a theme found in the Bible itself. Throughout the Bible, fear often accompanies encounters with angels. For instance, Daniel was so overwhelmed by Gabriel that he collapsed and lost his strength (Daniel 8:17–18; 10:7–9). Zechariah was troubled and fear fell upon him when he saw Gabriel (Luke 1:11–13), and Mary was greatly troubled (Luke 1:29). Gideon was terrified after meeting the angel of the LORD (Judges 6:22–23), and even John fell down in fear before an angel (Revelation 22:8–9). So, fear is actually a sign of divine awe in the Bible, not a sign of demonic intimidation. And the Gabriel mentioned in the Qur’an is the same messenger we recognize from the Bible.

. Quran is Written by Muhammad and his Men .Not dictated By Angel Gabriel, it's Plagiarised from the Bible .Never gave one Prophecy ,Died By Poison. It's a Catastrophic

Akir2025:
. Quran is Written by Muhammad and his Men .Not dictated By Angel Gabriel, it's Plagiarised from the Bible .Never gave one Prophecy ,Died By Poison. It's a Catastrophic

So the unlettered by your hallucinations can now read and write to the point of plagiarism? Even toddlers ask questions and rationally think.

Your outburst hasno bearing on textual origin or truth-claims, it is rhetoric, not scholarship

honesttalk21:
The whole objection is based on something the Bible never actually states which is that the angel of the lord who appeared to Moses couldn’t possibly be Gabriel. In the Hebrew Bible, “Angel of the LORD” isn’t a personal name; it’s more of a title for God’s messenger acting with divine authority. Scholars from both Christian and Jewish backgrounds, along with academic researchers, all point out that this figure isn’t named anywhere in Exodus. The text simply doesn’t specify who the messenger was.

Since the Torah doesn’t name any angels in the stories of Moses, saying Gabriel never spoke to Moses is really just an argument from silence, not a fact found in the Bible. Later texts, like those in Daniel and Luke, do mention Gabriel, but that doesn’t rule out his earlier missions; it just means that the earlier books don’t name any angels at all. Some Jewish commentary even suggests that Gabriel had additional missions that aren’t explicitly mentioned in the Torah. So, the idea that Gabriel could not be the messenger to Moses isn’t accepted in Judaism, Christianity, or by historians.

Waraqa wasn’t doing a verse-by-verse analysis; he was recognizing the type of encounter. What he meant was that the messenger who came to Muhammad is the same heavenly figure who historically brings revelation from God to His prophets. This aligns perfectly with how biblical revelation operates. God sends His word through His chosen angel, and the prophetic experiences are notably similar across different traditions.

So, the claim that Waraqa got it wrong just doesn’t hold up. The Bible doesn’t contradict him, it doesn’t name the angel, and there’s nothing in scripture or scholarship that makes his recognition impossible. This objection is based on a selective interpretatio not on the actual text.

Brotherly, there are thousands or perhaps millions to zellions of Angels God could send to deliver messages. It's not right to outrightly conclude and formulate into law that it was angel Gabriel Mohammad encountered in the cave. There is no such claim in the Quran or from the prophet himself.

End of story.

oluwafon:
Brotherly, there are thousands or perhaps millions to zellions of Angels God could send to deliver messages. It's not right to outrightly conclude and formulate into law that it was angel Gabriel Mohammad encountered in the cave. There is no such claim in the Quran or from the prophet himself.

End of story.

Let’s be clear, the one trying to spin a story here is you as my submissions are no gues. The Prophet pbuh himself pointed out that the angel was Jibril in authentic hadith. Aishah recounts that the Prophet later stated, That was Jibril who came to me (Sahih al-Bukhari 3, 4953; Sahih Muslim 160). He also confirmed Jibril publicly after the well-known visitation that the Companions witnessed, saying, that was Jibril; he came to teach you your religion (Sahih Muslim 8 ). So, while the Qur’an refers to Jibril as the messenger of revelation, the Prophet’s own confirmations documented through various hadith reports leave no room for doubt; this is solid evidence. Do you have anything in counter?

honesttalk21:
Let’s be clear, the one trying to spin a story here is you as my submissions are no gues. The Prophet pbuh himself pointed out that the angel was Jibril in authentic hadith. Aishah recounts that the Prophet later stated, That was Jibril who came to me (Sahih al-Bukhari 3, 4953; Sahih Muslim 160). He also confirmed Jibril publicly after the well-known visitation that the Companions witnessed, saying, that was Jibril; he came to teach you your religion (Sahih Muslim 8 ). So, while the Qur’an refers to Jibril as the messenger of revelation, the Prophet’s own confirmations documented through various hadith reports leave no room for doubt; this is solid evidence. Do you have anything in counter?

Brotherly, I am familiar with the story of the Hadith you referenced. However, it was not the prophet that said so, HE MERELY ADOPTED WHAT WARAQAH IBN NAWFAL told him. He told him that it was the same angel Gabriel that appeared to Moses, that appeared to Prophet Mohammad.

For avoidance of doubt, the bible, nor the Torah ever recorded anywhere that Angel Gabriel appeared to Prophet Moses✅ in fact, Angel Gabriel appeared twice in the bible and once in the Torah: to Daniel and Mary.

In any case, we are agreed that the glorious Quran never said it was angel Gabriel that appeared to Prophet Mohammad.

Please let's focus the teachings and claims to avoid doubts and thereby make some people apostate.

oluwafon:
Brotherly, I am familiar with the story of the Hadith you referenced. However, it was not the prophet that said so, HE MERELY ADOPTED WHAT WARAQAH IBN NAWFAL told him. He told him that it was the same angel Gabriel that appeared to Moses, that appeared to Prophet Mohammad.

For avoidance of doubt, the bible, nor the Torah ever recorded anywhere that Angel Gabriel appeared to Prophet Moses✅ in fact, Angel Gabriel appeared twice in the bible and once in the Torah: to Daniel and Mary.

In any case, we are agreed that the glorious Quran never said it was angel Gabriel that appeared to Prophet Mohammad.

Please let's focus the teachings and claims to avoid doubts and thereby make some people apostate.

Quran 2:97: Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel should know that he revealed this Quran to your heart by Allah’s Will, confirming what came before it; a guide and good news for the believers

Akir2025:
➜How did Muhammad know it was Angel Gabriel that Appeared to him after 3 years of the Encounter ?
This is a Question,Not War ,Not Violent. Enlightenment and Answer Needed Pls.

Mohammed was initially sure he encountered a demon. Then his wife, Khadijah, suggested that it may have been an angel instead. Afterwards, his wife's cousin gave him the name "Jibril" for the name of the suggested angel.

Waraqah ibn Nawfal, a Christian cousin of Muhammad's wife Khadijah, was the first person to insist that the angel Gabriel (Namus) visited Muhammad, recognizing it as the same divine messenger who appeared to Moses, confirming Muhammad's prophetic role after his first fearful revelation in the cave.

The problem with the claims of those who gave him the advice is two-fold;
1) Mohammed, who had the encounter, had his mind made up, based on his experience that what he had encountered had to be a demon. The wife and her cousin never had the same or similar encounters, but presented themselves as experts on not just angels but the identity of angels... all this merely from the accounts given them by mohammed who was instead certain it had to be a demon. 🥱🥱🥱

2) Gabriel is never written to have shown up to Moses at any point in time. As a matter of fact, Gabriel only showed up after the Israelites moved into the land of Israel... a place where Moses was never able to set foot in. This claim linking Gabriel to Moses is instead linked to commentaries made in rabbinic tradition by individuals who had no office giving them by the YHWH of the Israelites. Basically, it is a lie! 🥱🥱🥱

honesttalk21:
➜Quran 2:97: Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel should know that he revealed this Quran to your heart by Allah’s Will, confirming what came before it; a guide and good news for the believers

Stop twisiting yourself around in knots. Your book reveals that claim that it had to have been an angel and Gabriel at that came, not from Mohammed, but third parties whom your quran never stated had had the same experience before that, or encountered the same angel before that point in time. 🥱🥱🥱

stanvesco:
➜He knew the same way/reasons as all those whom Angel Gabriel visited in the Bible ! The angels always announce their names on arrival

Wrong! According to the quran of the Moslems, Mohammed never claimed that whatever it was that showed up to him announced itself to him by any name. As a matter of fact, Mohammed was convinced he saw a demon; it took his first wife saying something like, "No, it could not have been a demon, but an angel!"... and then his wife's cousin further convincing him with, "Yes, it had to be angel and the particular angel who visited Moses called Gabriel..." before Mohammed then began claiming also that it was an angel and the angel Gabriel, too. 🥱🥱

Of course, the joke is that Gabriel never visited Moses.... the commentaries/opinions of men that suggested he did came instead from rabbinic traditions, which have no place in the Torah or the Gospels. 🥱🥱

stanvesco:
➜I have always loved to get the english version of the Quran so I can benefit from its wisdom; and I still wish I could. That being said, can you imagine how you would feel if Donald Trump is standing right in front of you now? Or Imagine your state governor just knocks on your door right now or better still you hear a knock on your door and Davido is right dia and requesting you have dinner together?
➜ Would you act like it's no big deal or you would be turned inside out with anxiety!
➜ Now imagine how someone many many years ago would act when they have mystical visits!

1. Stop making nonsense up for the sake of it. I have seen Trump in person, and I did not see him as a demon or a huge arse being tormenting me on any level. 🥱🥱🥱

2. Yes, I would act like it is no big deal because it really wasn't when it happened. 🥱🥱

3. Nonsense! 🥱🥱

---

By the way, the English translations of the quran and its numerous Hadiths have been available online for you to read and learn of your own. What is keeping you from doing that even now so you stop with the ignorant retorts? 🥱🥱🥱

AntiChristian:
➜Prophet Muhammad initially did not know who the being was when Angel Gabriel first appeared to him during his retreat in the cave of Hira. The angel commanded him to "Read!" or "Recite!" but Muhammad responded that he could not read. The angel then pressed him tightly and repeated the command several times. After this intense encounter, Muhammad was deeply shaken and confused about the nature of the experience.
He later mentioned the event to Waraqa ibn Nawfal, a Christian scholar familiar with the scriptures. Waraqa informed Muhammad that the being who appeared to him was the same Angel Gabriel who had come to previous prophets to deliver God's messages. This confirmation helped Muhammad understand that his experience was a divine revelation through Angel Gabriel.
Thus, Muhammad's recognition of Angel Gabriel came through the explanation of Waraqa ibn Nawfal, who identified the spiritual being based on his knowledge of earlier prophetic traditions.
➜ Prophet Muhammad confirmed that the being who initially appeared to him was Angel Gabriel (Jibril) through the ongoing revelations he received, which were consistent with previous prophetic messages and spiritually profound. His certainty was further strengthened when he later saw Jibril in his true angelic form. These clear visions and repeated encounters affirmed to the Prophet that the divine messages came from Jibril, solidifying his understanding of the angel’s identity. May the peace and blessings of Allah be on the Prophet and all those who follow him in truth till the last day!

So, Mohammed did not figure out that this Waraqa ibn Nawfal was himself a fraud since Gabriel never appeared to Moses— there is no record of this ever taking place in all of the Torah. (The commentary—opinion piece— that supposedly links Gabriel to Moses instead comes from rabbinic writings, which any learned Israelite Scholar does not hold value above that which is detailed in the Torah, nor does it add or remove from it.)🥱🥱🥱

2. He confirmed a falsehood? OK... now does not make sense of any kind. A falsehood cannot be confirmed as a truth.😣😣😣😣😣

AntiChristian:
✓ Angels always comes with confort and peace! No be Angels go destroy Sodom? Anyways. we can see this is clearly false! Who fought Jacob in the old testament? An Angel called God fought him! So another prove that you lied!
✓ So why was Mary afraid when the angel approached her in Luke? Luke 1-28-29
When the angel entered her home, he greeted her and said, “You are favored by the Lord! The Lord is with you.”
She was startled by what the angel said and tried to figure out what this greeting meant.

1. Indeed! Angels showed up offering peace and joy to those to while they brought good tidings, but they came with a sword and misery to those who were cursed by the YHWH of Israel. 🥱

2. The answer is right there in the context of the passage you posted. she was confused about the greeting she got from the angel... Insinuating she was highly favored. 🥱🥱🥱

AntiChristian:
➜Where did the Angel identified themselves when they met Mary in Luke? Please show us? And what was his mission, Show us?
➜Angel Gabriel did tell him to read which signifies his mission is to enlighten him with inspiration; the knowledge he never knew before.

We know from the account in Luke that the Angel's name was Gabriel, though. 🥱🥱🥱

2. Wrong! There was no Gabriel who showed up to Mohammed. Why? Because according to Mohammed, what he experienced was demoni -- not angelic; Second, there was never a Gabriel who appeared before Moses. 🥱🥱

AntiChristian:
➜...The messages are for different peoples in different generations! While the foundation of the message can be the same the laws will be different!
➜ Moreso, it is clear the Injeel and Torah were never preserved following the destruction of the temple and persecution of the early christians! And how is all these even related to the topic of the thread?
➜ Are you guys pained by something external?

1. That is the problem.... different messages for different people...it does not work at all because both the Torah and the InJeel are directed at the same people -- the same bloodline. The only difference is the Kingdom/nation they point to. Other than that, even Jesus Christ of Israel is written to have said that in His own Kingdom, He would only do WHATSOEVER He sees His Father do implying there will be no difference as far as the character abd conduct of God in both nations. 🥱🥱🥱

2. Oh, how convenient! You mentioned that Mohammed got the idea that the demon that fell upon him from a supposed Christian scholar implying Mohammed had no issue with the Torah and InJeel as it existed at that point in time ... More than 500 years after the fall of Jerusalem in the first century. Does this mean that you, in fact, believe Mohammed, by accepting data culled from entries in these corrupted texts made a serious error then? 🥱🥱

---

You claim that the texts were corrupted after the fall of Jerusalem. But we have today the dead sea scrolls which date back to a period about 200 years of there about before the fall of Jerusalem. So, I guess I should ask if the dead sea scrolls are also corrupted for your Islam? 🥱🥱

It is funny how you are able to quote without qualms from the supposedly corrupted texts whenever you feel it benefits your argument to, but are quick to cast it down as corrupted text the moment it is used to reveal the falsehoods in your claims. 🥱🥱

honesttalk21:
➜Not every prophetic encounter was peaceful; Daniel fainted, Ezekiel dropped to the ground, and Zakariya was filled with fear but that doesn’t mean it was demonic.
➜ Waraqah was attuned to the patterns of revelation; he didn’t just take wild guesses.
➜ The Torah and the Gospel were already in existence, but later interpretations brought about some distortions (Jeremiah 8:. The Qur’an mushaf was compiled under Uthman, and the qira’at (recitation styles) are simply minor variations in pronunciation, not fundamentally different beliefs. Just because someone disagrees with your theology doesn’t mean they’re being deceptive; it’s the evidence and context that truly shape what’s considered true.

1. All those men you described were of the very same bloodline that was named by YHWH and none of them confused the sudden appearance with a demon nor described the experience as terrifying. Mohammed was not of the named bloodline and he was also certain his experience was demonic -- of terror. 🥱🥱

2. Unfortunately,Waraqah missed the pattern by many miles. The Torah never claims Gabriel appeared before Moses. The suggestion he quoted to Mohamed instead comes from rabbinic writings which are more like opinion pieces --- lies-- and not much else..🥱🥱

3. Later interpretations meaning the scrolls themselves have no problems, right? The dead sea scrolls existed about 700 years before Mohammed and since he conveniently affirmed Scriptures that existed before his time,that means that Mohammed has no qualms with those scrolls, right? 🥱🥱🥱

Kobojunkie:
1. All those men you described were of the very same bloodline that was named by YHWH and none of them confused the sudden appearance with a demon nor described the experience as terrifying. Mohammed was not of the named bloodline and he was also certain his experience was demonic -- of terror. 🥱🥱

2. Unfortunately,Waraqah missed the pattern by many miles. The Torah never claims Gabriel appeared before Moses. The suggestion he quoted to Mohamed instead comes from rabbinic writings which are more like opinion pieces --- lies-- and not much else..🥱🥱

3. Later interpretations meaning the scrolls themselves have no problems, right? The dead sea scrolls existed about 700 years before Mohammed and since he conveniently affirmed Scriptures that existed before his time,that means that Mohammed has no qualms with those scrolls, right? 🥱🥱🥱

Definitely incorrect.
1. Fear, lineage, and the idea of demonic certainty: My statement, as well as others, does not indicate that Muhammad (pbuh) was sure he met a demon; it merely highlights fear, which is a common reaction among biblical prophets (like Daniel, Ezekiel, and Zechariah). Fear is a typical response for prophets and does not serve as evidence of a demonic encounter. The concept of bloodline is not significant here; neither the Bible nor prophetic messages rely on genetic claims.

2. Waraqah and Gabriel: Waraqah recognized the pattern. The Torah frequently does not name angels. The identification of the messenger as Gabriel comes from Jewish interpretative tradition, not from any intent to deceive. Islam does not assert that the Torah explicitly names Gabriel, and the acknowledgment of him in relation to Moses is not a fabrication.

3. Earlier scriptures and the Dead Sea Scrolls: Acknowledging earlier revelations does not imply that every subsequent manuscript or interpretation is accepted. The Dead Sea Scrolls show a variety of texts, which supports Islam's view that the original revelation was divine, while later interpretations were human.

Nothing in evidence suggests that Muhammad (pbuh) believed he encountered a demon; it only indicates that the experience of revelation, as seen throughout scripture, was intense. None of these arguments prove deception; they merely reflect differing theological views.

Kobojunkie:
Stop twisiting yourself around in knots. Your book reveals that claim that it had to have been an angel and Gabriel at that came, not from Mohammed, but third parties whom your quran never stated had had the same experience before that, or encountered the same angel before that point in time. 🥱🥱🥱

Your assertion is simply wrong. Qur'an 2:97 clearly states that Gabriel revealed the Qur'an directly to Muhammad's heart, and this is not attributed to any unspecified third parties. The verse is a direct statement from Allah, not from Waraqah or anyone else. Recognition by others does not constitute revelation; it merely affirms it. Additionally, the Qur'an does not require prior identical experiences to identify the angel. Biblical prophets often met unnamed messengers who were later recognized through context and understanding. Identifying Gabriel serves to clarify, not contradict. Therefore, there is no confusion here only a refusal to accept the straightforward meaning of the text.

honesttalk21 post=138209323✓ [size=8pt:
Your assertion is simply wrong. Qur'an 2:97 clearly states that Gabriel revealed the Qur'an directly to Muhammad's heart, and this is not attributed to any unspecified third parties. The verse is a direct statement from Allah, not from Waraqah or anyone else. Recognition by others does not constitute revelation; it merely affirms it.
✓ Additionally, the Qur'an does not require prior identical experiences to identify the angel. Biblical prophets often met unnamed messengers who were later recognized through context and understanding. Identifying Gabriel serves to clarify, not contradict.
✓ Therefore, there is no confusion here only a refusal to accept the straightforward meaning of the text.[/size]

1. We know that Gabriel did not present himself before Moses, therefore whoever it was that revealed the Quran to Mohammed could not have been the same Gabriel of the Torah. Additionally, Gabriel of the Torah was a messenger of the God of Israel to the righteous of Israel and much of his appearance linked to their time in captivity. .there is no mention of him ever appearing before non-israelites. Mohammed was a non-israelite. Notice how Kadijat's cousin misses out yet another important clue. 🥱🥱

2. If Mohammad has claimed it was some random angel, there wouldn't have been a problem. But he linked his sighting to the Torah and the InJeel, books that present patterns of action and behavior. And there in lies the many problems with his claims and here we are only debating his claim that not only did he encounter an angel, he supposedly encountered the very same angel who is never reported in the Torah to have never in fact shown up to Moses. 🥱🥱

3. Like I tell even the Christians in this, religious blindness ain't gonna make the obvious issues disappear into thin air. What we have here is a significant blunder made by Mohammed in asserting a connection between whatever it was he encountered and that contained in the Torah. 🥱🥱🥱

honesttalk21:
✓ Definitely incorrect.
1. Fear, lineage, and the idea of demonic certainty: My statement, as well as others, does not indicate that Muhammad (pbuh) was sure he met a demon; it merely highlights fear, which is a common reaction among biblical prophets (like Daniel, Ezekiel, and Zechariah). Fear is a typical response for prophets and does not serve as evidence of a demonic encounter. The concept of bloodline is not significant here; neither the Bible nor prophetic messages rely on genetic claims.

2. Waraqah and Gabriel: Waraqah recognized the pattern. The Torah frequently does not name angels. The identification of the messenger as Gabriel comes from Jewish interpretative tradition, not from any intent to deceive. Islam does not assert that the Torah explicitly names Gabriel, and the acknowledgment of him in relation to Moses is not a fabrication.

3. Earlier scriptures and the Dead Sea Scrolls: Acknowledging earlier revelations does not imply that every subsequent manuscript or interpretation is accepted. The Dead Sea Scrolls show a variety of texts, which supports Islam's view that the original revelation was divine, while later interpretations were human.
✓ Nothing in evidence suggests that Muhammad (pbuh) believed he encountered a demon; it only indicates that the experience of revelation, as seen throughout scripture, was intense. None of these arguments prove deception; they merely reflect differing theological views.

1. Terror is what Mohammed described in detail, not fear. I am not really worried about that aspect. What bothers me is the comparison being made between a non-israelite clearly driven by his lust for worldly possessions to righteous Israelites who were chosen as prophets as a result of the works done in obedience to the Laws of YHWH. It is just completely off. 🥱🥱

2. Waraqah did not recognize anything. According to Scripture, Angels who appeared to the Righteous men and women or Prophets of Israel did so because they were blessed by YHWH -- God of Israel. Demons((Also a type of angels were sent to carry out God's wrath) were senf to those cursed by God of Israel...e.g. Saul. 🥱🥱

2. Gabriel showed up after the Jewish subsection of Israel were taken into captivity, this occured after the original nation of Israel has been divided into tow ans the second nation of Israel destroyed/taken over by the Assyrians.

Waraqah's claim that Gabriel showed up to Moses is false as no pattern suggested that Gabriel was in the picture at that time. He may have read a rabbinic opinion piece which he then used as backup for his claim but any one who understood well the law understood that no man is to add to or remove from that which is written. 🥱🥱🥱

3. Was the dead sea scrolls/manuscripts corrupted? Yes/no? I ask because absolutely nothing in the dead sea scrolls support the claims made even here in your Quran about Gabriel visiting Moses. 🥱🥱

4. Wrong! Mohammed's claims regarding his encounter are not backed by any part of the Torah or InJeel. That much is clear. . 🥱🥱

Also, it remains that the fact that third-parties had to weigh in as far a.wthe identity of whatever it was that Mohammed had encountered leaves like wondering if Mohammed may have been better off believing it was indeed a demon that he encountered.🥱🥱

Kobojunkie:
1. Terror is what Mohammed described in detail, not fear. I am not really worried about that aspect. What bothers me is the comparison being made between a non-israelite clearly driven by his lust for worldly possessions to righteous Israelites who were chosen as prophets as a result of the works done in obedience to the Laws of YHWH. It is just completely off. 🥱🥱

2. Waraqah did not recognize anything. According to Scripture, Angels who appeared to the Righteous men and women or Prophets of Israel did so because they were blessed by YHWH -- God of Israel. Demons((Also a type of angels were sent to carry out God's wrath) were senf to those cursed by God of Israel...e.g. Saul. 🥱🥱

2. Gabriel showed up after the Jewish subsection of Israel were taken into captivity, this occured after the original nation of Israel has been divided into tow ans the second nation of Israel destroyed/taken over by the Assyrians.

Waraqah's claim that Gabriel showed up to Moses is false as no pattern suggested that Gabriel was in the picture at that time. He may have read a rabbinic opinion piece which he then used as backup for his claim but any one who understood well the law understood that no man is to add to or remove from that which is written. 🥱🥱🥱

3. Was the dead sea scrolls/manuscripts corrupted? Yes/no? I ask because absolutely nothing in the dead sea scrolls support the claims made even here in your Quran about Gabriel visiting Moses. 🥱🥱

4. Wrong! Mohammed's claims regarding his encounter are not backed by any part of the Torah or InJeel. That much is clear. . 🥱🥱

Also, it remains that the fact that third-parties had to weigh in as far a.wthe identity of whatever it was that Mohammed had encountered leaves like wondering if Mohammed may have been better off believing it was indeed a demon that he encountered.🥱🥱

Kobojunkie:
1. We know that Gabriel did not present himself before Moses, therefore whoever it was that revealed the Quran to Mohammed could not have been the same Gabriel of the Torah. Additionally, Gabriel of the Torah was a messenger of the God of Israel to the righteous of Israel and much of his appearance linked to their time in captivity. .there is no mention of him ever appearing before non-israelites. Mohammed was a non-israelite. Notice how Kadijat's cousin misses out yet another important clue. 🥱🥱

2. If Mohammad has claimed it was some random angel, there wouldn't have been a problem. But he linked his sighting to the Torah and the InJeel, books that present patterns of action and behavior. And there in lies the many problems with his claims and here we are only debating his claim that not only did he encounter an angel, he supposedly encountered the very same angel who is never reported in the Torah to have never in fact shown up to Moses. 🥱🥱

3. Like I tell even the Christians in this, religious blindness ain't gonna make the obvious issues disappear into thin air. What we have here is a significant blunder made by Mohammed in asserting a connection between whatever it was he encountered and that contained in the Torah. 🥱🥱🥱

Your response does not effectively establish credibility; it merely highlights expectations and arguments based on silence. Just because a figure or claim doesn't align with your theological views doesn't mean it's false; it simply indicates a difference in doctrine. Credibility is built on consistency, coherence, results, and fulfilled claims, none of which your objections adequately challenge. Your argument relies on silence and rigid patterns, which is not sufficient proof but rather a rejection of differing theology.

It's a false assumption to say that the Torah states Gabriel never appeared to non-Israelites or before Moses; silence doesn't equate to denial. Biblical angels operate under God's command without ethnic limitations see Daniel 8–9, where Gabriel is sent to provide understanding, not restricted to Israelites.

Additionally, it's incorrect to say Muhammad pbuh linked Gabriel through the Torah; it was Waraqah who identified the angel, which aligns with the understanding of late Second-Temple Judaism. Disagreeing with this identification does not imply deception; it simply reflects a doctrinal difference. It also is explicitly stated in a revealed verse Q2:97.

Regarding the pattern of fear or terror during angelic encounters, this is consistent with biblical accounts as seen in Judges 6:22–23; Daniel 10:7–9; Luke 1:12. Experiencing fear does not indicate a demonic origin.

As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, they do not disprove Gabriel's role; instead, they support the idea of diverse Jewish beliefs about angels. The absence of a claim does not serve as a refutation.

Finally, the assertion that demons deliver law, monotheism, or moral guidance is unfounded see Deut 13 and James 3:17. The message of the Qur’an contradicts the typical patterns associated with demons.

honesttalk21:
➜Your response does not effectively establish credibility; it merely highlights expectations and arguments based on silence. Just because a figure or claim doesn't align with your theological views doesn't mean it's false; it simply indicates a difference in doctrine. Credibility is built on consistency, coherence, results, and fulfilled claims, none of which your objections adequately challenge. Your argument relies on silence and rigid patterns, which is not sufficient proof but rather a rejection of differing theology.
➜ It's a false assumption to say that the Torah states Gabriel never appeared to non-Israelites or before Moses; silence doesn't equate to denial. Biblical angels operate under God's command without ethnic limitations see Daniel 8–9, where Gabriel is sent to provide understanding, not restricted to Israelites.
➜ Additionally, it's incorrect to say Muhammad pbuh linked Gabriel through the Torah; it was Waraqah who identified the angel, which aligns with the understanding of late Second-Temple Judaism. Disagreeing with this identification does not imply deception; it simply reflects a doctrinal difference. It also is explicitly stated in a revealed verse Q2:97.
➜ Regarding the pattern of fear or terror during angelic encounters, this is consistent with biblical accounts as seen in Judges 6:22–23; Daniel 10:7–9; Luke 1:12. Experiencing fear does not indicate a demonic origin.
➜ As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, they do not disprove Gabriel's role; instead, they support the idea of diverse Jewish beliefs about angels. The absence of a claim does not serve as a refutation.
➜ Finally, the assertion that demons deliver law, monotheism, or moral guidance is unfounded see Deut 13 and James 3:17. The message of the Qur’an contradicts the typical patterns associated with demons.

1. I am not here to establish credibility, but to point out a glaring fact, which is that the claims in the Quran are in error in suggesting links from what Mohammed encountered to that presented in either the Torah or the Gospels. 🥱🥱

2. It does to a Faithful God— YHWH— whose actions and responses, according to Him, are literally as stipulated by His Law. Even Jesus Christ of Israel — Son of YHWH— made the same proclaimation when He is recorded in the Gospels to have said that He does only that which He sees His Father — YHWH— do, suggesting He is restricted He is also restricted to doing only that which is according to YHWH in the Land and His own Nation. 🥱🥱

3. Again, the claim is contained in your Quran that there is some sort of link between what Mohammed encountered and that which pertains only to the Israelites and hence the Torah. And the fact is clear that there is no connection whatsoever between those false claims and the Torah or the Gospels. 🥱🥱

4. I am not trying to digest emotions here, but instead pointing out that we cannot sensibly draw a parallel between that which was stipulated to happen only to righteous men and women/prophets of a particular bloodline, with something someone from a completely removed era, bloodline, and time claimed he experienced. 🥱🥱

5. They do exactly that since your initial rebuttal was that the scriptures had been corrupted from a point in time. The Dead Sea Scrolls/manuscripts came from before that point and do not show any connection between Gabriel and Mohammed, nor do they reveal any connection between Gabriel and non-Israelites who had no way of obtaining righteousness to begin with— the only standard of righteousness was given only to the Israelites by YHWH. 🥱🥱

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6. Deuteronomy 13 and James 3 vs 17 have absolutely nothing to do with any of what I posited there. 🥱🥱

Kobojunkie:
1. I am not here to establish credibility, but to point out a glaring fact, which is that the claims in the Quran are in error in suggesting links from what Mohammed encountered to that presented in either the Torah or the Gospels. 🥱🥱

2. It does to a Faithful God— YHWH— whose actions and responses, according to Him, are literally as stipulated by His Law. Even Jesus Christ of Israel — Son of YHWH— made the same proclaimation when He is recorded in the Gospels to have said that He does only that which He sees His Father — YHWH— do, suggesting He is restricted He is also restricted to doing only that which is according to YHWH in the Land and His own Nation. 🥱🥱

3. Again, the claim is contained in your Quran that there is some sort of link between what Mohammed encountered and that which pertains only to the Israelites and hence the Torah. And the fact is clear that there is no connection whatsoever between those false claims and the Torah or the Gospels. 🥱🥱

4. I am not trying to digest emotions here, but instead pointing out that we cannot sensibly draw a parallel between that which was stipulated to happen only to righteous men and women/prophets of a particular bloodline, with something someone from a completely removed era, bloodline, and time claimed he experienced. 🥱🥱

5. They do exactly that since your initial rebuttal was that the scriptures had been corrupted from a point in time. The Dead Sea Scrolls/manuscripts came from before that point and do not show any connection between Gabriel and Mohammed, nor do they reveal any connection between Gabriel and non-Israelites who had no way of obtaining righteousness to begin with— the only standard of righteousness was given only to the Israelites by YHWH. 🥱🥱

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6. Deuteronomy 13 and James 3 vs 17 have absolutely nothing to do with any of what I posited there. 🥱🥱

Absolutely pointless then. The freeway still is.

honesttalk21:
✓ Absolutely pointless then. The freeway still is.

Again, Moses experienced what he believed was demonic...the attempts to connect that experience to Moses and then the God of Israel is pointless. 🥱🥱🥱