₦airaland Forum

Let me remind you, the other day it was 4 lepers, only 4 people and they were lepers.

That is who God used to drive away a mighty fearful syrian army.

God uses anything, anyone any situation to accomplish His Will.

That is one of the many lessons this story is warning people

DeepSight:
+
So if the anger of the Lord was already burning against them, presumably that must be for a wrong they did. Why did he have to instigate another thing himself then punish them for it?

The Bible was written by men under divine inspiration. It does not rule out the fact that men are limited by their vocabulary and also try at times to reason out things that invariably appear in their accounts. In 1 Chronicles 21 account of the same event, verse 1 stated that Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

However 2 Samuel 24 stated that it was God that incited David because of the belief that nothing happened without the permission of God. But in the end we find out that David had a motive for the census and even Joab was against it because he knew it was not right. So just like when Eve was tricked by the serpent but had motive for eating the apple, the sin accrued to the sinner.

It is common to blame Satan for every sinful idea, just as Chronicles blamed Satan, but the sinner typically has his own independent reasons for committing the sin and that is why he has no excuse on judgment. It is a plus to David that when he saw the results of his action, he owned up and admitted he sinned rather than blame Satan, much less God for any incitement.

If David, who was in the thick of it admitted he sinned and did nit blame God, why are you trying to do so centuries later on reading the account?

Babinski:
The Bible was written by men under divine inspiration. It does not rule out the fact that men are limited by their vocabulary and also try at times to reason out things that invariably appear in their accounts. In 1 Chronicles 21 account of the same event, verse 1 stated that Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

However 2 Samuel 24 stated that it was God that incited David because of the belief that nothing happened without the permission of God. But in the end we find out that David had a motive for the census and even Joab was against it because he knew it was not right. So just like when Eve was tricked by the serpent but had motive for eating the apple, the sin accrued to the sinner.

It is common to blame Satan for every sinful idea, just as Chronicles blamed Satan, but the sinner typically has his own independent reasons for committing the sin and that is why he has no excuse on judgment. It is a plus to David that when he saw the results of his action, he owned up and admitted he sinned rather than blame Satan, much less God for any incitement.

If David, who was in the thick of it admitted he sinned and did nit blame God, why are you trying to do so centuries later on reading the account?

+
1. What was that motive of David
2. If he had a motive then why is it said that God instigated him
3. If David committed the sin, why kill 70, 000 innocents who knew nothing about it?

Babinski:
The Bible was written by men under divine inspiration. It does not rule out the fact that men are limited by their vocabulary and also try at times to reason out things that invariably appear in their accounts. In 1 Chronicles 21 account of the same event, verse 1 stated that Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

However 2 Samuel 24 stated that it was God that incited David because of the belief that nothing happened without the permission of God. But in the end we find out that David had a motive for the census and even Joab was against it because he knew it was not right. So just like when Eve was tricked by the serpent but had motive for eating the apple, the sin accrued to the sinner.

It is common to blame Satan for every sinful idea, just as Chronicles blamed Satan, but the sinner typically has his own independent reasons for committing the sin and that is why he has no excuse on judgment. It is a plus to David that when he saw the results of his action, he owned up and admitted he sinned rather than blame Satan, much less God for any incitement.

If David, who was in the thick of it admitted he sinned and did nit blame God, why are you trying to do so centuries later on reading the account?

Which motive? Please stop lying against David.

Verse 1 shows us God had an ax to grind against Isreal and He used David to accomplish it. Same thing He did to Egypt and Pharoah.

I know that you are in denial and struggling against the fact that God can use a person in any way and manner. Go through it without having to lie against David

It's not right to take all comments personal if you don't understand what someone said you can ask leading questions after all i typed something but obviously you just don't want the answer!😟

DeepSight:
+
Don't be silly. I asked. You made a comment that answered nothing. I said so. And then you said it's not meant for me.

DeepSight:
+
1. What was that motive of David
2. If he had a motive then why is it said that God instigated him
3. If David committed the sin, why kill 70, 000 innocents who knew nothing about it?

Clearly, he is talking rubbish.
The Bible already shows that God was angry with Isreal and therefore He Drew His Bow.

David was just one of the arrows

Options:

1. The passage is a metaphor or allegory, not meant to be read literally. It has a deeper hidden meaning.

2. Those are his people and he can kill them if he wants, like the Nigerian government killing Nigerian citizens when they "disobey".

Psalm 22:28.
In the King James Version (KJV), it reads:
"For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations."

3. God is subject to human-like emotional reactivity like jealousy, anger, murderous rage followed by repentance.

Exodus 32:14 ►
King James Bible

And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

4. The God in the old testament is not the God Jesus referred to as Father.

John 8:44
New International Version
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Choose one.

DeepSight:
Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

2 Samuel 24

1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”

3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.

8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.

9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the Lord had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’”

13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”

14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”

Tctrills, Kukutente23, TV01, SirTee15, FreeIgboho, Gabrielshow24, ono, femi4, explain.

DeepSight:
+
Two issues here. In Exodus, God is rescuing the Israelites from Egypt and that is why he supposedly says when you count them, each is to pay the lord "a ransom for his life."

So we can see that the context was specific and different.

But even if it wasn't the second question remains: why does God instigate the census only to murder the people en mass for what he instigated?

In this particular story, was the Ransome paid?

The answer to the second question has already been given in the first statement...
And the anger of the Lord stirred against Israel

Someone has to initiate the events that will trigger the punishment. For this particular case, it was David, the King who did so.

GodHimself:
Options:

1. Those are his people and he can kill them if he wants, like Nigerian government kill Nigerian citizens when they "disobey".

Psalm 22:28.
In the King James Version (KJV), it reads:
"For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations."


2. God is subject to human-like emotional reactivity like jealousy, anger, murderous rage followed by repentance.

Exodus 32:14 ►
King James Bible

And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


3. The God in the old testament is not the God Jesus referred to as Father.

John 8:44
New International Version
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


4. The passage is a metaphor or allegory, not meant to be read literally. It has a deeper hidden meaning.



Choose one.

There is a controversial claim that Yahweh is not the GOD of the new testament whose only defining quality is unconditional love.

Nonetheless, we must acknowledge that the entity being described in this context is Yahweh, and It can deal with it's "chosen" people anyway it seems fit. Commandments were given, they were not followed to the letter, and the consequences became evident.

GodHimself:
Options:. It .
4. The God in the old testament is not the God Jesus referred to as Father.

So, there are 2 different mighty God(s)? Or that God changed?
Please stop taking rubbish just because you are not able to explain a situation you do not immediately understand.

Yes, you are right that God is the All Ruling King so He does what He pleases. However, we have all seen that He always has a good reason for acting and verse 1 said so.

Dtruthspeaker:
Which motive? Please stop lying against David.

Verse 1 shows us God had an ax to grind against Isreal and He used David to accomplish it. Same thing He did to Egypt and Pharoah.

I know that you are in denial and struggling against the fact that God can use a person in any way and manner. Go through it without having to lie against David

I think your grievance is misplaced. Read 1 Chroniclrs 21 fr better understanding to know that David himself admitted guilt and was remorseful and that eve Joab knew at the time that what David was doing was wrong.

I am not in any denial. People bear responsibility for their actions even when they want to attribute the blame to God or Satan. Even I our modern legal system, David has the mens rea for the sin or offense.

HeatSeeker:
There is a controversial claim that Yahweh is not the GOD of the new testament whose only defining quality is unconditional love.

Nonetheless, we must acknowledge that the entity being described in this context is Yahweh, and It can deal with it's "chosen" people anyway it seems fit. Commandments were given, they were not followed to the letter, and the consequences became evident.

Yahweh is said to be the gods of Canaan. And we see God was against Canaan and their gods. So this doesn't work because God cannot fight Himself.

Thus, God of the old testament is still The Same One in the new testament which is it is Written "He Who was and Who is...'

Still the same God!

GodHimself:
Options:

1. The passage is a metaphor or allegory, not meant to be read literally. It has a deeper hidden meaning.

2. Those are his people and he can kill them if he wants, like the Nigerian government killing Nigerian citizens when they "disobey".

Psalm 22:28.
In the King James Version (KJV), it reads:
"For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations."

3. God is subject to human-like emotional reactivity like jealousy, anger, murderous rage followed by repentance.

Exodus 32:14 ►
King James Bible

And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

4. The God in the old testament is not the God Jesus referred to as Father.

John 8:44
New International Version
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Choose one.

+
No. 4 seems the most viable.

Dtruthspeaker:
So, there are 2 different mighty God(s)? Or that God changed?
Please stop taking rubbish just because you are not able to explain a situation you do not immediately understand.

Yes, you are right that God is the All Ruling King so He does what He pleases. However, we have all seen that He always has a good reason for acting and verse 1 said so.

+
That chap is on a level of intelligence, clarity and rationality that it will take you a number of lifetimes to get to, so you had better humble yourself and calm down.

Dtruthspeaker:
Yahweh is said to be the gods of Canaan. And we see God was against Canaan and their gods. So this doesn't work because God cannot fight Himself.

Thus, God of the old testament is still The Same One in the new testament which is it is Written "He Who was and Who is...'

Still the same God!

Yahweh is the God of the Israelites. This is an undisputed fact. The same God some Christians gather to scream to every Sunday. No need turning history on it's head or redefining what is already known. The Lord being referenced in this passage is Yahweh.

HeatSeeker:
In this particular story, was the Ransome paid?

The answer to the second question has already been given in the first statement...
And the anger of the Lord stirred against Israel

Someone has to initiate the events that will trigger the punishment. For this particular case, it was David, the King who did so.

+
No, it says God himself instigated David.
What was the reason for his initial anger. Even if you look for it in the preceding chapters, you will not see why.

DeepSight:
+
No, it says God himself instigated David.
What was the reason for his initial anger. Even if you look for it in the preceding chapters, you will not see why.

The reason for his anger was not explicitly stated, but common! This same story was recorded in another book of the bible and it was stated that the devil is the one who tempted David to sin. The bottom line remains that David took action he wasn't meant to and reaped the consequences for his poor decision making.

HeatSeeker:
The reason for his anger was not explicitly stated, but common! This same story was recorded in another book of the bible and it was stated that the devil is the one who tempted David to sin. The bottom line remains that David took action he wasn't meant to and reaped the consequences for his poor decision making.

+
It is still strange that you can put this on David when it clearly says God instigated it. Are you saying David could have resisted God?

DeepSight:
+
1. What was that motive of David
2. If he had a motive then why is it said that God instigated him
3. If David committed the sin, why kill 70, 000 innocents who knew nothing about it?

In response to your questions:

1. According to 1 Chronicles 21, Joab knew what David was about to do was wrong and sinful. If Joab knew, then David also knew. And that was when punishment came, David did not ask how or when he sinned. He knew. His motive was a mix of pride and reliance on numerical stregth which God has always detested, particularly for Israel.

2. 1 Chronicles 21 in the same account of the event under 2 Samuel 24 stated that Satan incited David and not God. It is based on the view that nothing happens without God's permission that the author in 2 Samuel 24 attributed the incitement to God. And if you want to hang on that princple, then you would want to say no man should be held for his sins because God knew and permitted it. But that is not how it works. People have their reasons for sinning and bear responsibility for their actions.

3. The punishment for the sins of leaders are more often than not visited upon their subjects. That is a reality that even we have come to understand in our human world and way of doing things. If a company collapses from mismanagement of leadership, it is not only the leaders that lose, thousands of workers thrown into the job market also bear the brunt. God is Almighty and all-knowing and if He decided to punish the Israelites instead of David alone, He knows the reason. And whatever He does is justice.

DeepSight:
+
It is still strange that you can put this on David when it clearly says God instigated it. Are you saying David could have resisted God?

he had a choice and took responsibility for his actions.

Babinski:
I think your grievance is misplaced. Read 1 Chroniclrs 21 fr better understanding to know that David himself admitted guilt and was remorseful and that eve Joab knew at the time that what David was doing was wrong.

I am not in any denial. People bear responsibility for their actions even when they want to attribute the blame to God or Satan. Even I our modern legal system, David has the mens rea for the sin or offense.

1 chronicles 21 is not different from is not different from the one in view except that this is the one which tells us why David took the census.

And David only admitted guilt because it was him through whom God used to punish the people.

So, his remorse comes when his eyes cleared and if he was truly guilty as you say, then he too and his household would have been struck but he was not.

And I'm happy you know mens rea so if you charged David do you not see that he would plead force majeure and therefore a just court would a quit him?

DeepSight:
+
It is still strange that you can put this on David when it clearly says God instigated it. Are you saying David could have resisted God?

What about the FREE will that people have in the religious context?

How much of this reminds you of Ola Rotimi's play- The Gods are NOT to Blame

Babinski:
Where a man kills another allegedly for God's sake, it raises several questions and such a man may be convicted for murder.

However, when God kills a man, on what basis would you question God as the creator of man? If a farmer who did not create a Hen takes one from his backyard, kills and prepares it for a meal, what Court to we take the farmer ro or what crime do we accuse him of? Of course in these days you may see misguided animal rights people that may even attack such a farmer, and other hen would call the farmer a murderer.

However, if the giver of life takes life, no one can question or accuse him. It is God that gives meaning and purpose to our lives. As the creator, God has absolute rights and power over our lives.

Of course as a hen in animal farm, you may concort your own reason for existence and even believe it as if you are sufficient unto yourself and of some importance.

Now this is some deep shite
But will DeepSight see it?

Kukutente23:
Now this is some deep shite
But will DeepSight see it?

+
I have said before that this excuse could have flown if it was simply said that God took their lives and gave no reason. But once an absurd and psychotic reason is given, it is open to interrogation. In this case -

1. It is said that God was the one who instigated the census
2. He got angry over what he instigated
3. He then threw a fit over what he instigated and killed 70, 000 innocents - leaving out David who he had instigated

Be honest, this makes no sense.

And let me tell you the most important thing here. The most important thing about this line of questioning is that it is not so much questioning God, but it is questioning the absurd tales men tell.

cc: Babinski

DeepSight:
+
What's wrong with a census. And notice just like with Pharaoh it's Yahweh who goes about putting the idea into David's mind in the first place before punishing him for it.
Isn't it weird that he slaughters 70, 000 innocent people for this?

How are they innocent people? Who tried them and declared them innocent? If they are innocent, who then is guilty in the story? David? You already cleared him.
So since you sit in judgement over God and declare him guilty, what do you prescribe as his punishment for this grave felony of murdering 70k souls in one swoop. Tell us o mighty judge. We await your most erudite sentencing of the King of kings and Lord of Lords. But while you prepare this ebullient judgement from your most hallowed bench an inconvenient thought crosses our minds. Who shall it be who shall carry out your judgement on the guilty One?

Kukutente23:
How are they innocent people? Who tried them and declared them innocent?

+
What was their crime and how were the involved?

DeepSight:
+
I have said before that this excuse could have flown if it was simply said that God took their lives and gave no reason. But once an absurd and psychotic reason is given, it is open to interrogation. In this case -

1. It is said that God was the one who instigated the census
2. He got angry over what he instigated
3. He then threw a fit over what he instigated and killed 70, 000 innocents - leaving out David who he had instigated

Be honest, this makes no sense.

And let me tell you the most important thing here. The most important thing about this line of questioning is that it is not so much questioning God, but it is questioning the absurd tales men tell.

cc: Babinski

Oh ok your problem is the narrative. Hmmm. It's a big one. I wonder why no one ever thought about the inconvenience of such narrative when they wrote it. If only it was your erudite self who wrote the bible, it would have been so flawlessly written such that no lack of logic or reasoning could ever have been spotted in it.
But I'm surprised that this is the first time you're seeing it. If you read your Bible from Genesis, you would have found the absurdity right there from that first chapter, and then you wouldn't have to travel so far into such an illogical book to see that such an episode already occurred in Exodus, the second book. God it was who wouldn't let Pharaoh yield to Moses' request which He sent Moses to request of Pharaoh. Such twisted logic. Why send a man on an errand that will prove impossible to complete because of your own interference? Why don't you just kill Pharaoh and his firstborn son from the onset instead of making a theatric of them before climaxing the drama at the Red sea?!! If only God was as logical as you!!
Unfortunately, if you had read your Bible from the beginning, you would have seen that God himself already answered your question as to why he chooses to do what he does the way he prefers and not the way you would prefer. Now go read Exodus 7 and get the answer that God himself supplied you so that you do not go about asking the sons of men to defend God in your court when he already provided his own defence. You may now carry out your sentencing most fair judge.

DeepSight:
+
What was their crime and how were the involved?

Their crime was being formed from clay.
He answered in Isaiah 45! Is he still guilty or now cleared of any wrongdoing?

DeepSight:
+
Leave this thread at once.

Anger!! It rests in the bosom of fools

Kukutente23:
Oh ok your problem is the narrative. Hmmm. It's a big one. I wonder why no one ever thought about the inconvenience of such narrative when they wrote it. If only it was your erudite self who wrote the bible, it would have been so flawlessly written such that no lack of logic or reasoning could ever have been spotted in it.
But I'm surprised that this is the first time you're seeing it. If you read your Bible from Genesis, you would have found the absurdity right there from that first chapter, and then you wouldn't have to travel so far into such an illogical book to see that such an episode already occurred in Exodus, the second book. God it was who wouldn't let Pharaoh yield to Moses' request which He sent Moses to request of Pharaoh. Such twisted logic. Why send a man on an errand that will prove impossible to complete because of your own interference? Why don't you just kill Pharaoh and his firstborn son from the onset instead of making a theatric of them before climaxing the drama at the Red sea?!! If only God was as logical as you!!
Unfortunately, if you had read your Bible from the beginning, you would have seen that God himself already answered your question as to why he chooses to do what he does the way he prefers and not the way you would prefer. Now go read Exodus 7 and get the answer that God himself supplied you so that you do not go about asking the sons of men to defend God in your court when he already provided his own defence. You may now carry out your sentencing most fair judge.

+
This made me smile. Nicely written with a splash of humour.

I went to read Exodus 7 as you recommended. In short it says that it's all to glorify God right?

Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”

Don't you think such a narcissistic reason is loathsome?

Kukutente23:
Anger!! It rests in the bosom of fools

+
That was not anger. He has no business here.

Kukutente23:
Their crime was being formed from clay.
He answered in Isaiah 45! Is he still guilty or now cleared of any wrongdoing?

+
But God formed them of clay, they didn't form themselves.

Stop wasting my time with sarcasm and be serious.