₦airaland Forum

budaatum:
And I am telling you different. I'm also telling you it crops up in most arguments I see you involved in where people tell you their baseless beliefs, while you counter them with verifiable facts.

I just think it leads nowhere because 99.9% of people will tell you that what they believe is the same as what they know. The nuanced difference is something you will harp on forever and never gain anything from. That's why I told you to just assume that people know.

That said, why are you bothered about what I harp on about? Am I misusing your data by forcing your mind to consider?

thesolutions:
I believe you are off. Experiences and experiment/proofs are not the same. In experience, we are not talking about work experience but patterns of events that occur without human control.

Like the consistent experience of the pattern of event of water falling on your head without human control?

thesolutions:
When it becomes consistent, it becomes a theory. And this theory when taught becomes knowledge, otherwise, it is a personal conviction/belief.
Knowledge involves sharing this theories with others.

I put it to you that your understanding of your experience may be wrong. And when you teach your personal convictions to others you may be propagating ignorance.

An example is those who claim "skool na scam", because they experienced school as a scam and formed personal conviction/belief that they consider to be theories, which they are obviously not.

DeepSight:
I just think it leads nowhere because 99.9% of people will tell you that what they believe is the same as what they know.

And what "99.9% of people" say is a reason for me not to harp on, Deep?

I was not aware I was in some popularity contest, and I actually expect to be treated like the person who returned to Plato's Cave, as you are treating me here.

Whatever you or anyone claims to believe is believed because you do not actually know. And I do not expect most to accept this because most believers hardly ever do because camel eye needle enter is almost impossible for some.

DeepSight:
The nuanced difference is something you will harp on forever and never gain anything from. That's why I told you to just assume that people know.

I should assume like those who assume they know what they believe, deep? Create me in their image, why don't you please!

You are amusing me by thinking I am not aware that some of my words will fall along the path for birds to eat up, and some will fall on rocky places where there is not much soil and be scorched in the sun and wither because they have no root. And other seed will fall among thorns and grow up and be choked. Still some will fall on thinking minds where it produces a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

As for gain. Jesus healed 10 lepers but only one appeared as his gain, we read in the book of fiction. But for me, you not listening, Deepsight, does not indicate that no one hears, and nor does anyone need to tell me I have made them consider the difference between belief and knowing, because some obviously have ears and hear, I have found in my time here, as opposed to what you seem to believe.

DeepSight:

Do not think I failed to notice you are one of the 0.1% after much effort on my part.

If I can get deep into your sight, I definitely get into the minds of others too.

budaatum:
And what "99.9% of people" say is a reason for me not to harp on, Deep?

I was not aware I was in some popularity contest, and I actually expect to be treated like the person who returned to Plato's Cave, as you are treating me here.

Whatever you or anyone claims to believe is believed because you do not actually know. And I do not expect most to accept this because most believers hardly ever do because camel eye needle enter is almost impossible for some.


I should assume like those who assume they know what they believe, deep? Create me in their image, why don't you please!

You are amusing me by thinking I am not aware that some of my words will fall along the path for birds to eat up, and some will fall on rocky places where there is not much soil and be scorched in the sun and wither because they have no root. And other seed will fall among thorns and grow up and be choked. Still some will fall on thinking minds where it produces a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

As for gain. Jesus healed 10 lepers but only one appeared as his gain, we read in the book of fiction. But for me, you not listening, Deepsight, does not indicate that no one hears, and nor does anyone need to tell me I have made them consider the difference between belief and knowing, because some obviously have ears and hear, I have found in my time here, as opposed to what you seem to believe.

Well said.

DeepSight:
Well said.

Thank you for provoking my mind to attempt to say it so well. I shall continue to endeavour to say it better.

Hmm. I sound patronising! I mean my own and not yours I quoted. I can not express my gratitude to you enough for sharpening my iron and provoking my mind to work, even when we disagree.

budaatum:
Like the consistent experience of the pattern of event of water falling on your head without human control?


I put it to you that your understanding of your experience may be wrong. And when you teach your personal convictions to others you may be propagating ignorance.

An example is those who claim "skool na scam", because they experienced school as a scam and formed personal conviction/belief that they consider to be theories, which they are obviously not.

Now I can assume we are in the same page.
Enlightenment could be false if ones conviction is false. What others call enlightenment could be ignorance propagated as knowledge.

thesolutions:
Now I can assume we are in the same page.
Enlightenment could be false if ones conviction is false. What others call enlightenment could be ignorance propagated as knowledge.

Yes! I can claim or be convicted that I am enlightened, while in truth I may actually be ignorant. I can even be convinced that what I propagate is true when in truth it is false. And that is why a person's enlightenment can not be a personal claim, but a thing that others must determine.

All I can do is present (or propagate) my case or opinion and trust those with minds to contemplate and reason will determine if it is ignorance or worthy to be considered and checked to be known. And even I must consider responses to check if my own conviction is true or false.

Know that I fail woefully if I am merely believed. Here is a text that would apply to me if that is what I intend or achieve.

budaatum:
Thank you for provoking my mind to attempt to say it so well. I shall continue to endeavour to say it better.

Hmm. I sound patronising! I mean my own and not yours I quoted. I can not express my gratitude to you enough for sharpening my iron and provoking my mind to work, even when we disagree.

You are an interesting being, that is for sure.

DeepSight:
You are an interesting being, that is for sure.

How dare you insult the buda? lol!

You are very interesting too, Deepsight. For not many have delved deep enough to know what Atum is, or mention Giordano Bruno and Heidegger.

By the way, I'm looking up where you asked me about spiritualism. I have something to say about it.

budaatum:
How dare you insult the buda? lol!

You are very interesting too, Deepsight. For not many have delved deep enough to know what Atum is, or mention Giordano Bruno and Heidegger.

I just love history and philosophy no end.

What they did to Bruno was unbelievable. That man was one of the brightest minds ever.

I have written a piece on it, sadly I cant share it here otherwise the whole of nairaland will discover who I am!

By the way, I'm looking up where you asked me about spiritualism. I have something to say about it.

I await!

DeepSight:
Or a prison for souls.

Or a farm.

Because looking dispassionately at this world and this life, it does not seem to be created for altruistic purposes.

The very fact that highly intelligent conscious beings could be kept in a total blackout about their own reality is telling.

Let us share a number of fringe theories about the meaning and purpose of Earth life here.

Unfortunately souls do not inhabit the earth
It is the physical body that inhabits the earth
Your claim is flawed
Your logic is false
The physical man is the most idealistically free, who is always expanding the boundaries of his freedom and rejecting any attempt to stifle it.
Shake yourself off these delusions

Kukutente23:
Unfortunately souls do not inhabit the earth
It is the physical body that inhabits the earth
Your claim is flawed
Your logic is false
The physical man is the most idealistically free, who is always expanding the boundaries of his freedom and rejecting any attempt to stifle it.
Shake yourself off these delusions

Hang on a second. This is a very interesting proposition. Do I understand you to be saying that only our bodies dwell on Earth but our souls simultaneously dwell elsewhere?

Just to be sure/ to clarify.

DeepSight:
Hang on a second. This is a very interesting proposition. Do I understand you to be saying that only our bodies dwell on Earth but our souls simultaneously dwell elsewhere?

Just to be sure/ to clarify.

The soul is not bound to earth the way our body is
The soul transcends different realms at intervals
So to claim that the soul is a slave in a earthly prison is a direct affirmation of delusion

Kukutente23:
The soul is not bound to earth the way our body is
The soul transcends different realms at intervals
So to claim that the soul is a slave in a earthly prison is a direct affirmation of delusion

Its one thing to say that the soul straddles different realms - which I would agree with - and quite another to say that the soul does not dwell on Earth? Let me understand your position properly.

Furthermore, please note that when we speak of the Earthman, we speak of the totality of his being, body, soul, mind, spirit as dwelling on Earth for a given time.

Now surely an analogy suffices. Even if the government sends you to jail, someone can come and say that your spirit is in your house with your family while your body is in the jail. This would not mean that you are not in jail would it?

DeepSight:
I just love history and philosophy no end.

What they did to Bruno was unbelievable. That man was one of the brightest minds ever.

I have written a piece on it, sadly I cant share it here otherwise the whole of nairaland will discover who I am!

Many, the 99.9%, have not heard of Bruno or the brightness of his mind. And it is a pity you feel you can not share what you have written about him so it is not discovered who you are. I don't have that problem myself, because, my hidden gender.

I actually discovered him in my research about Rosicrucianism. Frances A. Yates wrote a wonderful book about his hermetic tradition. It was my annual reading for 7 years in my attempt to cement his ideas in my psyche. I kept giving it away and had to rebuy it as it acted as a syllabus to many other readings too.

Unfortunately, I hardly read books anymore! My last completed book was Heidegger (your nazi), where he described the 99.9%, and that took me years to listen to because I could not actually read it because my mind wondered at every sentence. I said years ago that I want to write more than I read, hence Nairaland, where I get to read what people like you write and I write in response. Here gives me the opportunity to be read and get feedback.

I'm at gmail if you feel like sharing. I'd be grateful and honoured and will keep your "discover".

DeepSight:
Its one thing to say that the soul straddles different realms - which I would agree with - and quite another to say that the soul does not dwell on Earth? Let me understand your position properly.

Furthermore, please note that when we speak of the Earthman, we speak of the totality of his being, body, soul, mind, spirit as dwelling on Earth for a given time.

Now surely an analogy suffices. Even if the government sends you to jail, someone can come and say that your spirit is in your house with your family while your body is in the jail. This would not mean that you are not in jail would it?

Missed it by a mile. The soul was never in prison.

Everything that's experienced on earth is experienced by the body. The effect on the soul or spirit is resultant but indirect. For example, many have while being in prison had reason to become religious converts.

Being in prison does not stop a man from dreaming and seeing his dead relations or even having psychologically intimate sex with his wife. The prison is only able to capture the body not the mind. The Bible says if you faint in the days of adversity, then your strength is weak. That strength refers to the soul of man not his physical ability since that will must times be limited in adversity.

Thus, to call the earth a prison for humans will imply that the soul is bound to earth and the experience it suffers is only within the reason of what its body experiences on earth. That can't be further from the reality.

Kukutente23:
Missed it by a mile. The soul was never in prison.

Everything that's experienced on earth is experienced by the body. The effect on the soul or spirit is resultant but indirect. For example, many have while being in prison had reason to become religious converts.

Being in prison does not stop a man from dreaming and seeing his dead relations or even having psychologically intimate sex with his wife. The prison is only able to capture the body not the mind. The Bible says if you faint in the days of adversity, then your strength is weak. That strength refers to the soul of man not his physical ability since that will must times be limited in adversity.

Thus, to call the earth a prison for humans will imply that the soul is bound to earth and the experience it suffers is only within the reason of what its body experiences on earth. That can't be further from the reality.

I find this interesting and it does in fact resonate with me. Nonetheless we cannot say that man is not bound to the Earth for a time. Even where we can agree that the soul may straddle different realms, its experience is also attached to the Earth and life on Earth for a time.

I dont think it is meaningful to discuss the body sans the soul by the way, otherwise you would be discussing a corpse.

DeepSight:
I find this interesting and it does in fact resonate with me. Nonetheless we cannot say that man is not bound to the Earth for a time. Even where we can agree that the soul may straddle different realms, its experience is also attached to the Earth and life on Earth for a time.

I dont think it is meaningful to discuss the body sans the soul by the way, otherwise you would be discussing a corpse.

Of course the soul is bound to earth for a while but it is not held captive by the body at any time. If the soul is free, then the body is itself free since a bound body can't carry a free soul. Thus I find your initial premise totally wrong
What the creator intended is a far cry from how man has turn out. Thus it is virtually impossible for the earth to be a cage for man.

Kukutente23:
Of course the soul is bound to earth for a while but it is not held captive by the body at any time. If the soul is free, then the body is itself free since a bound body can't carry a free soul. Thus I find your initial premise totally wrong

I hear you. And I repeat that it resonates with me.

However, just as a thought experiment, let us ask ourselves these questions. Do we really know the fate of this soul post death, or what we have contrived is simply designed to keep our sanity in what is clearly a situation where no one knows the truth?

And leading from that question, if we dont know what really awaits our consciousness post death, can we write off the fringe notions that we are being groomed for some purpose altogether different from anything we have ever or can ever imagine?

For me, humility in light of how small we are in the scheme of things means that we have to admit that we just dont know and cant shut down various possibilities.

What the creator intended is a far cry from how man has turn out.

I find it very tiresome to blame the created being all the time when the creator clearly holds the driving wheel in the scheme of things.

DeepSight:
I dont think it is meaningful to discuss the body sans the soul by the way, otherwise you would be discussing a corpse.

This cracked me up.

But wouldn't a proper retort be, the corpse is separated from the soul and is in fact a corpse precisely because its soul has departed the living body?

It kind of does also counter Kukutente23's proposal that the soul is "not held captive by the body at any time". Since, as soon as the soul frees itself from the body that it is encaptured in, what's left is a corpse. And it is the soul living in the body that enables the body to have life.

Personally, I don't do soul and creator or fairies or that thing I mentioned once that offended you, and I'm just thought experimenting.

DeepSight:
I find it very tiresome to blame the created being all the time when the creator clearly holds the driving wheel in the scheme of things.

Excuse me! but why would one not blame the created thing on the creator of the thing, especially if the "creator clearly holds the driving wheel in the scheme of things"?

I mean, if I kick your ass all over Nairaland, why blame me and not my creator who is driving my wheel?

budaatum:
This cracked me up.

But wouldn't a proper retort be, the corpse is separated from the soul and is in fact a corpse precisely because its soul has departed the living body?

It kind of does also counters proposal that the soul is "not held captive by the body at any time". Since, as soon as the soul frees itself from the body that it is encaptured in, what's left is a corpse. And it is the soul living in the body that enables the body to have life.

Personally, I don't do soul and creator or fairies or that thing I mentioned once that offended you, and I'm just thought experimenting.

In which part of the body is the soul captured? The head, heart, stomach or the reproductive organ?

Kukutente23:
In which part of the body is the soul captured? The head, heart, stomach or the reproductive organ?

Interesting question. Personally I would say that the soul is attached to the ethereal magnetic aura of the body.
But let budaatum answer.

Kukutente23:
In which part of the body is the soul captured? The head, heart, stomach or the reproductive organ?

The imaginary soul, you mean?

You might as well ask me where the Spaghetti Monster lives!

And my answer would be, in your own head, since I don't accept the idea of a soul at all, or the Spaghetti Monster and other imaginary gods and fairies and goblins.

DeepSight:
Interesting question. Personally I would say that the soul is attached to the ethereal magnetic aura of the body.
But let budaatum answer.

I've answered. Now I have a question for you.

What is the "ethereal magnetic aura of the body"?

budaatum:
I've answered. Now I have a question for you.

What is the "ethereal magnetic aura of the body"?

Its no use since you dont believe in souls from your answer.

DeepSight:
I hear you. And I repeat that it resonates with me.

However, just as a thought experiment, let us ask ourselves these questions. Do we really know the fate of this soul post death, or what we have contrived is simply designed to keep our sanity in what is clearly a situation where no one knows the truth?

And leading from that question, if we dont know what really awaits our consciousness post death, can we write off the fringe notions that we are being groomed for some purpose altogether different from anything we have ever or can ever imagine?

For me, humility in light of how small we are in the scheme of things means that we have to admit that we just dont know and cant shut down various possibilities.



I find it very tiresome to blame the created being all the time when the creator clearly holds the driving wheel in the scheme of things.

The fate of the soul post death is another matter entirely. People have come up with different beliefs about it. It is impossible to know the truth until you have experienced it yourself. What you can only do is accept what you've come to believe as the right explanation

DeepSight:
Its no use since you dont believe in souls from your answer.

The fact I need to believe already invalidates it as far as I'm concerned.

It's like claiming the Spaghetti Monster is real because I believe it exists. And my response will be, in my stupid head and in the heads of the brainless people I am able to convince it exists in their heads too. And if I can do that, I'd rather convince people to sell me a spanking brand new red Ferrari for the imaginary million pounds in my imaginary bank account or they should just be my slaves.

Some read Giordano Bruno for understanding, Deep, while some read it and believe.

budaatum:
The fact I need to believe already invalidates it as far as I'm concerned.

It's like claiming the Spaghetti Monster is real because I believe it exists. And my response will be, in my stupid head and in the heads of the brainless people I am able to convince it exists in their heads too. And if I can do that, I'd rather convince people to sell me a spanking brand new red Ferrari for the imaginary million pounds in my imaginary bank account or they should just be my slaves.

Some read Giordano Bruno for understanding, Deep, while some read it and believe.

Well for me, the existence of the soul is as obvious as the existence of air. The body is a cloak and i feel sensitive people should actually feel its weight clustered around their intangible self.

Mentioning FSM is always a sign to me that someone doesnt take a discussion seriously and only intends to mock the issues at play.

Kukutente23:
The fate of the soul post death is another matter entirely. People have come up with different beliefs about it. It is impossible to know the truth until you have experienced it yourself. What you can only do is accept what you've come to believe as the right explanation

This is fair.

DeepSight:
Well for me, the existence of the soul is as obvious as the existence of air. The body is a cloak and i feel sensitive people should actually feel its weight clustered around their intangible self.

Mentioning FSM is always a sign to me that someone doesnt take a discussion seriously and only intends to mock the issues at play.

Deep, I am mocking! And claiming the "existence of the soul is as obvious as the existence of air" can only but be mocked.

I mean, there's lots of ways you can go about showing me air even if I don't believe, but I very much doubt you can show me a soul in any way possible.

But hey! My imaginary million pounds in my imaginary bank account, for me. Just believe, and I hope you have a real obviously existing spanking brand new red Ferrari to sell me. I'll buy.