₦airaland Forum

budaatum:
Deep, I am mocking! And claiming the "existence of the soul is as obvious as the existence of air" can only but be mocked.

I mean, there's lots of ways you can go about showing me air even if I don't believe, but I very much doubt you can show me a soul in any way possible.

But hey! My imaginary million pounds in my imaginary bank account, for me. Just believe, and I hope you have a real obviously existing spanking brand new red Ferrari to sell me. I'll buy.

I said obvious to me.

budaatum:
The imaginary soul, you mean?

You might as well ask me where the Spaghetti Monster lives!

And my answer would be, in your own head, since I don't accept the idea of a soul at all, or the Spaghetti Monster and other imaginary gods and fairies and goblins.

If I understand you, you believe that your body is what you're all about and there's no spiritual side to you?

DeepSight:
I said obvious to me.

Like I too said my imaginary million pounds in my imaginary bank account is obvious to me! It's not like you will argue its not obvious to me I bet, until I insist you accept it as obvious to you payment for whatever you have to sell me.

Deep, everyone of us have things that are obvious to ourselves alone. And if I sit in my house with my obviouses to me, no one born will come and argue with me in my house that my obviouses are not obvious to me. But when I step outside and make that claim to people with brains, I should expect to be challenged or just be ridiculed and written off as braindead, I'd think, especially if I start arguing with them that it is obvious to me like air is obvious to everyone.

Out of interest, I'm currently in discussion with some older person who insists they used 'obvious to them' egbe (teleporting) when they were young. I asked how they came to England in the 60s, and they said they flew on a plane while telling me how ignorant I am because egbe is not obvious to me!

budaatum:
Like I too said my imaginary million pounds in my imaginary bank account is obvious to me! It's not like you will argue its not obvious to me I bet, until I insist you accept it as obvious to you payment for whatever you have to sell me.

Deep, everyone of us have things that are obvious to ourselves alone. And if I sit in my house with my obviouses to me, no one born will come and argue with me in my house that my obviouses are not obvious to me. But when I step outside and make that claim to people with brains, I should expect to be challenged or just be ridiculed and written off as braindead, I'd think, especially if I start arguing with them that it is obvious to me like air is obvious to everyone.

Out of interest, I'm currently in discussion with some older person who insists they used 'obvious to them' egbe (teleporting) when they were young. I asked how they came to England in the 60s, and they said they flew on a plane while telling me how ignorant I am because egbe is not obvious to me!

Save that you yourself have categorized your million pounds as imaginary.

Some things are experiential and cannot be proven to another person. Anyone who has had Out of Body Experiences, Near Death Experiences, astral travel, consistent prescient dreams and the like will know that there is an immaterial aspect to his or her being. Unfortunately each must experience these things for himself or herself.

I personally believe that it can be logically inferred as well, and i have tried several times to do so, but I can barely recall ever convincing anyone. Its just one of those things that has to be personally experienced.

Here is one of my attempts to prove that there is an intangible person beyond the physical body -

https://www.nairaland.com/1565324/person

But LordReed and I gave it a more thorough examination here -

https://www.nairaland.com/6942843/matter-mind

Kukutente23:
If I understand you, you believe that your body is what you're all about and there's no spiritual side to you?

My body is not what I am all about, Kukutente23. I have an immaterial mind too that functions in my body, and I have addressed the spiritual aspect here and here too, and it is in fact my immaterial mind that is communicating with you in spirit at present, though I confess it is using my body to type my words since you can not read the content of my mind without my body manifesting it to you.

That does however not mean that whatever you want to call my spirit or soul or mind can exist outside of the body of buda, because when buda dies, that spiritual mind that is buda will stop existing and all that would be left is the dead corpse of buda. Well, that and my words here that would continue to manifest in spirit as long as Nairaland survives.

DeepSight:
Save that you yourself have categorized your million pounds as imaginary.

Some things are experiential and cannot be proven to another person. Anyone who has had Out of Body Experiences, Near Death Experiences, astral travel, consistent prescient dreams and the like will know that there is an immaterial aspect to his or her being. Unfortunately each must experience these things for himself or herself.

I personally believe that it can be logically inferred as well, and i have tried several times to do so, but I can barely recall ever convincing anyone. Its just one of those things that has to be personally experienced.

Here is one of my attempts to prove that there is an intangible person beyond the physical body -

https://www.nairaland.com/1565324/person

But LordReed and I gave it a more thorough examination here -

https://www.nairaland.com/6942843/matter-mind

And my Lord Reed gave an apt response.

LordReed:
These are assertions you are yet to provide any evidence for. Can you provide any evidence there is a ghost in the machine? Simply stating it is not sufficient.

BTW I have identified, defined and located the self. It is all that makes you up as a human being both the seen and unseen aspects.

As I said, anyone can sit in their house and assert whatever is obvious to them, but as soon as you step out you house and assert it in public, your assertions are not selling unless evidence is presented for them, and you have provided none.

Also, notice my Lord Reed's "BTW". It is my personality and not my body that you find interesting, Deep, since you can not see under my skirt and bra! And it would be absurd to claim personality, which is a product of the development of the mind, does not exist, since even you can witness its manifested output.

Now, you may wish to separate my personality from my body or call something in me my spirit or soul or even mind, but I can only assert that it is a part of me which I have cultivated and developed just as I have cultivated the tuber like muscles on my legs. And if you manage to separate my personality from my body all you'll be left with is my dead corpse.

budaatum:
And my Lord Reed gave an apt response.



As I said, anyone can sit in their house and assert whatever is obvious to them, but as soon as you step out you house and assert it in public, your assertions are not selling unless evidence is presented for them, and you have provided none.

Also, notice my Lord Reed's "BTW". It is my personality and not my body that you find interesting, Deep, since you can not see under my skirt and bra! And it would be absurd to claim personality, which is a product of the development of the mind, does not exist, since even you can witness its manifested output.

Now, you may wish to separate my personality from my body or call something in me my spirit or soul or even mind, but I can only assert that it is a part of me which I have cultivated and developed just as I have cultivated the tuber like muscles on my legs. And if you manage to separate my personality from my body all you'll be left with is my dead corpse.

Well, as I said, I dont think its the sort of experience that one can convey or prove to another person.

Budaatum let me add that the thread on mind and matter is almost 40 pages strong and went into a lot of delicate arguments.
Reading the first few posts cannot give you a view of it.

DeepSight:
Well, as I said, I dont think its the sort of experience that one can convey or prove to another person.

And if you said it was what you thought or believed or even understood, I really wouldn't really ask you to prove it, but when you assert it as you do, expect Spaghetti, in order to flesh out your understanding.

Thing is, we know humans are more than our material bodies, and we loosely use words like spirit, soul, persona, and perhaps mind etc, to convey that aspect of us that we are uncertain about or just can not explain.

It is in fact the idea of the trinity, which is conveyed as father, son and holy spirit in Christianity, and some have even claimed there is a fourth aspect to make up a quaternity, which I would advise be explored (and note gender below). But claiming it is something that can be separated from the body or the person is, well, obvious only to those who can separate them, I guess.

budaatum:
And if you said it was what you thought or believed or even understood, I really wouldn't really ask you to prove it, but when you assert it as you do, expect Spaghetti, in order to flesh out your understanding.

Thing is, we know humans are more than our material bodies, and we loosely use words like spirit, soul, persona, and perhaps mind etc, to convey that aspect of us that we are uncertain about or just can not explain.

It is in fact the idea of the trinity, which is conveyed as father, son and holy spirit in Christianity, and some have even claimed there is a fourth aspect to make up a quaternity, which I would advise be explored (and note gender below). But claiming it is something that can be separated from the body or the person is, well, obvious only to those who can separate them, I guess.

I honestly dont claim to be able to show or prove it to anyone. It is too subjective an experience.
Its almost like asking me to prove to you what I dreamt about last night.

It can never be proven.
Nonetheless, if I dreamt about apples, I dreamt about apples.

It would be true, it would be as obvious to me as air, because I experienced it.
But I can never, never, not in a thousand years, prove to anyone what I dreamt about.

DeepSight:
Budaatum let me add that the thread on mind and matter is almost 40 pages strong and went into a lot of delicate arguments.
Reading the first few posts cannot give you a view of it.

It's a thread I have read some of in the past in order to research and see and get a view into your soul, Deep, and your assertion at the start, which you have continued here, convinces me it's 40 pages of what you are asserting here, which is why you are now presenting it here. But if you changed your mind after the first page, do please post a specific link to a post for me to read, as there's no way I'd go through 40 pages to read what you are still asserting here after those 40 pages!

budaatum:
It's a thread I have read some of in the past in order to research and see and get a view into your soul, Deep, and your assertion at the start, which you have continued here, convinces me it's 40 pages of what you are asserting here, which is why you are now presenting it here. But if you changed your mind after the first page, do please post a specific link to a post for me to read, as there's no way I'd go through 40 pages to read what you are still asserting here after those 40 pages!

I cant do that. That thread contains some of the most delicate and nuanced arguments. Thats all I can say.
LordReed, of course, remained ever the formidable co-discussant.

DeepSight:
I honestly dont claim to be able to show or prove it to anyone. It is too subjective an experience.
Its almost like asking me to prove to you what I dreamt about last night.

It can never be proven.
Nonetheless, if I dreamt about apples, I dreamt about apples.

It would be true, it would be as obvious to me as air, because I experienced it.
But I can never, never, not in a thousand years, prove to anyone what I dreamt about.

This I perfectly understand, Deep. Though I might argue about the air bit.

If I dreamt of apples, I doubt I could convince you of anything about apples too. But then, I'd just say I dreamt of apples and be done with it, and not use my dreaming of apples to try to convince you of anything to do with apples, because, Spaghetti!

In fact, I dreamt last night that I sat between dump and our King Charles at a banquet and engaged both of them in conversation and was like a mediator, and it did seem as true or as valid as air. There were no apples, but a huge lobster was served me, but annoyingly I had to get up and pee before I could taste any of the damn thing, and I was angry I hadn't drunk any of the fine wine as I peed too.

Now, would you like to hear what we conversed about? I've forgotten, i confess, but I can make up lies to try to convince you my dream was as valid as air if I don't care what that would say about my personality going forward to a person like you whom I consider intelligent and deep.

It's to do with the words we use, deep. Air is so valid that I just need to suck all of it out of a room you are in to convince you of its validity, but I doubt that would work where my lobster and fine wine with dump and King Charles is concerned.

Do let me know if I am wrong though, for I assure you my lobster was as big as a cow, and dump was as obnoxious as ever though the King was his graceful self.

DeepSight:
I cant do that. That thread contains some of the most delicate and nuanced arguments. Thats all I can say.
LordReed, of course, remained ever the formidable co-discussant.

Good thing is, you have evolved since then and can hopefully present the cogent points here.

Mind, body, soul, etc is a thing most of us have discussed numerous times here on Nairaland, and here is in fact one related to near death experiences and my own opinion, but I wouldn't be sufficiently arrogant as to propose you dig through any of the numerous threads in which I have engaged on the subject when I can directly engage with you on said subject here.

Here, though, is a thread about subjectivity, a word that consideration of might benefit us both, though I'm certain to have evolved since then and might express myself much better.

budaatum:
This I perfectly understand, Deep. Though I might argue about the air bit.

If I dreamt of apples, I doubt I could convince you of anything about apples too. But then, I'd just say I dreamt of apples and be done with it, and not use my dreaming of apples to try to convince you of anything to do with apples, because, Spaghetti!

In fact, I dreamt last night that I sat between dump and our King Charles at a banquet and engaged both of them in conversation and was like a mediator, and it did seem as true or as valid as air. There were no apples, but a huge lobster was served me, but annoyingly I had to get up and pee before I could taste any of the damn thing, and I was angry I hadn't drunk any of the fine wine as I peed too.

Now, would you like to hear what we conversed about? I've forgotten, i confess, but I can make up lies to try to convince you my dream was as valid as air if I don't care what that would say about my personality going forward to a person like you whom I consider intelligent and deep.

It's to do with the words we use, deep. Air is so valid that I just need to suck all of it out of a room you are in to convince you of its validity, but I doubt that would work where my lobster and fine wine with dump and King Charles is concerned.

Do let me know if I am wrong though, for I assure you my lobster was as big as a cow, and dump was as obnoxious as ever though the King was his graceful self.

Touché.

budaatum:
My body is not what I am all about. I have an immaterial mind too that functions in my body, and I have addressed the spiritual aspect here and here too, and it is in fact my immaterial mind that is communicating with you in spirit at present, though I confess it is using my body to type my words since you can not read the content of my mind without my body manifesting it to you.

That does however not mean that whatever you want to call my spirit or soul or mind can exist outside of the body of buda, because when buda dies, that spiritual mind that is buda will stop existing and all that would be left is the dead corpse of buda. Well, that and my words here that would continue to manifest in spirit as long as Nairaland survives.

If I understand you, your claim is that the spirit/mind dies as soon as the body is dead.
Thus in your view, the body is superior to the mind and the mind is just one aspect of the body
Thus you still insist that your body is all what you're about

Deepsight, remember these?

https://www.nairaland.com/6942843/matter-mind/33#115722474

https://www.nairaland.com/6942843/matter-mind/1#109463107

It's why I don't need to read the thread again.

Kukutente23:
If I understand you, your claim is that the spirit/mind dies as soon as the body is dead.
Thus in your view, the body is superior to the mind and the mind is just one aspect of the body
Thus you still insist that your body is all what you're about

You are the one insisting on my behalf "that your body is all what you're about", Kukutente23, and please note that you continue to insist that despite my claim that I don't agree with what you insist. I would have you recognise that you are currently engaging with the mind of buda and you have no Idea of anything to do with the body of buda, which should inform you that the totality of buda must be more than the body of buda alone. I sure don't deceive myself to assume that the body of Kukutente23 is all that Kukutente23 is, note.

As for the "claim is that the spirit/mind dies as soon as the body is dead", that I would agree with, at least as far as the mind is concerned, since I am not aware of a dead corpse having brain activity or mind function. And I say that having spent a lot of time in hospitals watching people die and brain activity and mind function stopping, for I have never seen a dead person ask for food or cry out in pain or philosophise, yet.

What you are currently reading is a product of the activity of my brain and the functioning of my mind, which I am typing out with my fingers which are parts of my body. My brain can be active and my mind can function to produce thoughts in my head, but unless you can read my mind, my body, fingers, have to assist in producing the output you are reading or you'd have nothing to read from me unless you can read my mind.

Also, if I were to fall dead at this particular moment and before clicking submit, as in, if my body stops taking in oxygen before posting this, you will not have this particular post to read from me or respond to I would think, unless you are able to perform a seance and communicate with the dead.

And I guess if I were to be hit hard in the head with a harmer such as to be brain damaged before writing all this, my mind would not produce any of this despite my body being still in a living state if I don't die.

Essentially, I would not claim that "the body is superior to the mind", and nor would I say "the mind is just one aspect of the body", because both my body and my mind are what assist in my manifestation as the unique living being that I am who is typing this out for you to read. And though my body can continue to exist on life support after my brain has stopped functioning, that would not be the buda who produced what you have read so far, I can assure you, because buda, as in the totality of the personality that you are engaging with, is the inseparable functioning mind that is buda with the assistance of the inseparable body (brain and fingers, at least) of buda that constitute the totality that is buda. Come to think of it, if the body of buda were male and the mind of buda were the female or vice versa, "both male and female does buda equally exist", would apply.

Now, I have limited myself here to a duality of a body and a mind, but recognise that I mentioned a trinity and a quaternity too, being a student of Jung. And I am considering a Quinternity as a speculative possibility, but my jury is still out on that, I must confess.

Note too that after I have posted on Nairaland this manifestation of however many inseparable aspects of buda that I may or may not be and then died, my manifestation, as signified by this particular post, will not die or disappear with me even if my body be a rotting corpse and my mind cease to function, but will continue to exist (in sprit, dare I say), for as long as Nairaland exists, unless it is deleted of course.

You will forgive me for length and convolution please.

budaatum:
Deepsight, remember these?

https://www.nairaland.com/6942843/matter-mind/33#115722474

https://www.nairaland.com/6942843/matter-mind/1#109463107

It's why I don't need to read the thread again.

I just re-read!

Let me say that -

In response to -

Consistency implies physical matter, and would answer the question what. Domicile implies a particular location, and would answer the question where. Dimension implies size, and would partly answer what. And all 3 remind me of being and time and space, the fundamentals of matter.

None of these definitions are my understanding of what you define. Consistency for me means a type or a nature. Domicile of a spirit or immaterial being will mean the dimensions it acts in, is present in, influences. Dimension would mean any plane of reality.

Would you understand therefore if the very next question after the aboves would be, show me where this spirit is so I can see for myself what it is made of?

Is it your expectation that the spirit is something that is visible to the physical eyes?

DeepSight:
I just re-read!

Let me say that -

In response to -

None of these definitions are my understanding of what you define. Consistency for me means a type or a nature. Domicile of a spirit or immaterial being will mean the dimensions it acts in, is present in, influences. Dimension would mean any plane of reality.

Note I said "implies", while you are saying "means".

My imply should indicate that 'I subjectively infer', while your "mean" is less subjective.

We must read with spiritual eyes, Deep, to see and comprehend spiritual things, I'd think.

DeepSight:
Is it your expectation that the spirit is something that is visible to the physical eyes?

I have never ever seen a visible spirit with my physical eyes, but I must confess that I am semi blind.

Are your eyes better than mine, Deep, or do you look for spirits with your non-physical mind like I try to do?

thesolutions:
Knowledge is power. But who owns the power?
Most times, people believe they are enlightened and laughs at the perceived ignorance of others. That, on it own, is a higher form of ignorance. Many claim ignorance is bliss. This is because an ignorant person can not be controlled.
But an enlightened person is doomed to seek for more enlightenment. They offer them selves to more controlling thoughts that massages their ego and makes them look down on others that doesn't have such knowledge.
This might not be related. But no ignorant person debates about flat earth and round earth. No ignorant person talks about spirits and the multiverse. These are false knowledge pretending to be enlightenment.
In the end, it is all about work/play, food and rest. That is all that is common between the enlightened and the ignorant naives.
You don't have to be ignorant. But if enlightenment becomes torment, you have derailed.

You captured my resolution about seeking knowledge and intentionally holding unto ignorance.

While the former might make one feel superior than the latter, he doesn't seem grasp that the more you know, the more restless and exhausted you become.

So, does it even matter to know more at all?

Lastpharoah33:
You captured my resolution about seeking knowledge and intentionally holding unto ignorance.

While the former might make one feel superior than the latter, he doesn't seem grasp that the more you know, the more restless and exhausted you become.

So, does it even matter to know more at all?

Yes, it does "matter to know more at all", despite "the more you know, the more restless and exhausted you become", at some point in life.

Knowing is a lifetime endeavour, and at some point one knows one knew less than one knows now, and one will know more in the future, and knowing more has not made "one feel superior than the latter", and nor will it in the future, least as far as feelings go. for that would in fact be not-knowing and ignorant.

Knowing opens one's eyes so one may see the inferior in one's own self and admit to oneself that one does not and can not know all, and thereby learn to be compassionate to one's ignorant self.

Besides, history has shown that the unknowing, as in those who do not seek for knowledge with all their heart and soul and mind and being from the cradle to the grave are often enslaved to those who know better and sought understanding of the knowledge so they may gain the principal thing which is Wisdom.

Basically, learn! Ignorance is expensive and not bliss.

No, I do not mean you, Lastpharoah33. You know more just being here.